I just turned 25! And have never dated :(

[Dating Coach]

I think a lot of the criticism is over the fact that those sites portray an ideology of using women for nothing more than sex. I.e. the goal is to seduce as many women as possible, sleep with them, then move on to another 'target.' A lot of the information is good and useful, but there's definitely a problem with that kind of ideology.

 

I'd say this is a big misconception on these forums.... to an extent. The real purpose of those sources (besides making money) is to teach guys how to change their failures into success. In order to see improvement you do NOT have to adhere to all of the teachings, and neither do you have to cease being nice or having good intentions. You can still be in it for finding "the one" and learn a lot.

 

I never intended to become a player or to mislead, lie, use, or stop being myself. I still learned a lot. I didn't buy those books but I did keep an open mind when discussing them with other people who did buy and study them. Just from that second hand discussion I learned a lot in regards to how things work and how to present myself to women in the most positive light (ie more self confidence, better nonverbal reading skills, etc)... and I did it all without compromising who I am. In fact, I ended up becoming a much stronger me in the end. There is a lot to learn there and if you are depressed due to failure then why not give it a shot? You can learn a lot of good.

[galaxy71]

I agree with Galaxy71.

 

Anyways, it does seem to be a skill that anyone with 1/2 a brain can pick up, but I can't seem to be able to. I probably need to be placed into much more social situations and learn how to interact confidently in new situations that would otherwise make me feel anxious or unsure of myself.

 

That's right. An imortant way that you are going to overcome your shyness is by learning new ways of interacting with women. The more practice you get, the better.

 

I think a lot of the criticism is over the fact that those sites portray an ideology of using women for nothing more than sex. I.e. the goal is to seduce as many women as possible, sleep with them, then move on to another 'target.' A lot of the information is good and useful, but there's definitely a problem with that kind of ideology.

 

The previous quote is from Wilhelm. I am morally opposed to using women for sex. However, I don't find that as repugnant compared to the times in this forum when nice, shy guys have been discouraged from improving themselves. On another thread, this guy got falsely condemned for viewing women as objects, when his intent was to improve his social skills. Such judgement and criticism will only make shy guys more sensitive to what other people think of them. That is the problem. Shy guys are too obsessed about not offending or annoying other people they interact with. This compulsive fear of judgement prevents shy guys from being their true selves. Shy guys are not being themselves when they act polite and awkward around new people. Instead, their true selves are shining through when they are confidently expressing their values and beliefs around their close friends and family. Shy guys need to stop giving a #### about what other people think of them. If some chick tries to shame you for expressing yourself, she should go to hell for all I care.

[Sweet Buttabean Jellayroll]

they cant, if they could dont you think they would?.....you all dont understand what shy people go thru so u make comments like "man up" or "stop caring" duh they are trying, there is no way u can just break out of your shell it takes time, and lots of it....it happens when it may, i was shy around girls in high school, and in college when i least expected it i was shy no longer. u get over being shy it happens naturally if u just believe that it will then it will....if uve never been shy then u dont know the fustration they go threw its heart racing and very painful and hurts alot when u wanna take an oppourtunity but u turn into sement

[galaxy71]

they cant, if they could dont you think they would?.....you all dont understand what shy people go thru so u make comments like "man up" or "stop caring" duh they are trying, there is no way u can just break out of your shell it takes time, and lots of it....it happens when it may, i was shy around girls in high school, and in college when i least expected it i was shy no longer. u get over being shy it happens naturally if u just believe that it will then it will....if uve never been shy then u dont know the fustration they go threw its heart racing and very painful and hurts alot when u wanna take an oppourtunity but u turn into sement

 

I am shy. So I very well know what these guys are going through. What I am doing is encouraging shy guys to challenge some of their self-limiting beliefs. The way I got over a lot of my shyness was by exposing myself to people who were positive and who challeneged my self-limiting beliefs. Not only did I challenge my self-limiting beliefs, but I learned to improve my social skills by going to what I used to be considered scary places like bars and nightclubs. Small successes at bars and nightclubs gradually increased my confidence. If you checked my other posts in this thread, you will see me referring shy guys to other websites that teach social skills and self-improvment. I am not like the other people in the forum who give cliches and platitudes to shy men.

[Dating Coach]

they cant, if they could dont you think they would?.....

 

Yes they can. I did. So have a lot of guys. It just doesn't happen over night.

 

you all dont understand what shy people go thru so u make comments like "man up" or "stop caring" duh they are trying, there is no way u can just break out of your shell it takes time, and lots of it....it happens when it may

 

I think we understand pretty well my friend, since we have all been there before.

[Miss M]

Although I don't think that shy guys should be given misinformation, I disagree with comparing that to using women for sex. I happen to see those as completely different things, and I do think using women for sex to be VERY seriously repugnant. But I guess that's where a lot of us differ, because some see that as not being such a big deal, while others do.

 

If a woman is shaming you, then sure, absolutely don't accept that from her. But it's also important not to perceive cruelty from her if she isn't doing that. Another trait of shyness is to emphasize negativity, seeing oneself as being judged unfavorably when that's not really happening. Shy people will endlessly torture themselves when no one else is actually contributing to that.

 

Another trait of shyness is appearing calm, relaxed, and desirable, even when feeling unacceptable. Although some guys do look like a nervous cat, some others will look totally smooth and self-assured on the outside, while feeling the exact opposite on the inside. I personally know a few people like that. Some others will appear aloof or arrogant while feeling fearful and inferior. Some shy guys are unapproachable and closed, and some others are open and approachable. Shyness really has many different ways of manifesting, and only the individual can say what his(hers) is really like. And the way to overcome shyness will also be different for each person.

[Dating Coach]

Although I don't think that shy guys should be given misinformation, I disagree with comparing that to using women for sex. I happen to see those as completely different things, and I do think using women for sex to be VERY seriously repugnant. But I guess that's where a lot of us differ, because some see that as not being such a big deal, while others do.

 

I didn't see anyone say this though. Maybe I missed it on this thread but I didn't see anyone saying that using women for sex wasn't a big deal. Using people like that is downright sick. I think most would agree.

[Leonhart]

Exactly.

 

It's basically a matter of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

I've learned a ton of useful information from those sites, even if I may disagree with its intent.

 

I'm not saying I'm anywhere NEAR where I'd like to be yet, but steps forward are better than staying the same or moving backward.

 

 

 

It's true, fear of being judged and evaluated negatively keeps men back. I've been the same way myself. For the record, though: SOME shy guys are actually very polite and timid, even around friends and family. For them, being themselves might simply not be enough, hence they need to change WHO THEY ARE. Harsh? Maybe. But it's a matter of would they rather be single and "who they are" or would they rather change, improve themselves and not be alone? It's really their choice.

 

I think that choice is something a lot of shy or unsuccessful men with women must face: Do I want to improve myself or do I want to stay where I'm at and never get a great woman? The choice is definitely theirs.

[Miss M]

I didn't see anyone say this though. Maybe I missed it on this thread but I didn't see anyone saying that using women for sex wasn't a big deal. Using people like that is downright sick. I think most would agree.

 

I am morally opposed to using women for sex. However, I don't find that as repugnant compared to the times in this forum when nice, shy guys have been discouraged from improving themselves.

 

Although I don't think that shy guys should be given misinformation, I disagree with comparing that to using women for sex. I happen to see those as completely different things, and I do think using women for sex to be VERY seriously repugnant. But I guess that's where a lot of us differ, because some see that as not being such a big deal, while others do.

 

And I guess how we read the posts in these threads is also where a lot of us differ. ... (but we knew that already, eh DD? )

[biddo]

hey not to dispair there are heaps of people of all races who have never dated.

[galaxy71]

I am guilty as charged. Do you know why "using" women as sex isn't as bad as everybody makes it out to be? Simple, most of the time it's consensual sex between two people who never made a promise of being in an exclusive relationship with each other. Most of the time, the guys in those websites don't have to resort to manipulation or deception because they know how to interact with women. Both parties know that they are "hooking up" and that no commitment is being made. I remember listening on the "Today" show how young women were increasingly engaging in short-term relationships. You people make it sound like that all women are sweet, innocent virgins who are getting preyed upon by creepy, evil players. Women enjoy sex just like men do.

 

On the other hand, a lot of shy guys are getting castrated by a lot of "misinformation" that shames guys into not showing their masculinity. They are not told that women expect them to take the lead. These guys never learn to properly interact with a women since they are told to treat women with politeness, and respect. Instead of learning how to confident and assertive, shy guys are encouraged to accept their shy nature and being deferential to others. If they dare utter the blasphemous thought that they want to have a sex with a women they don't know, they are judged as being lecherous and a pig.

[Miss M]

Fastseduction and sosuave advocate using women for sex in one-sided way where women are being manipulated and deceived. And if you refer to "using women for sex" and then add "I don't find that as repugnant as compared to..." then I take that to refer to the one-sided use of women, not when two consenting adults who both are aware of what's happening. You seem to be mixing two completely different things in this discussion, but now treating them both as if they are the exact same thing. They're not. Geez, I couldn't care less what two consenting adults are doing when both parties are being totally upfront about it.

[Dating Coach]

And I guess how we read the posts in these threads is also where a lot of us differ. ... (but we knew that already, eh DD? )

 

I read over galaxy's comment and suspected that it might be what you are referring to, but wasn't sure. One doesn't know for certain without asking.

 

I still don't see galaxy saying it's not a big deal. He said he's morally opposed to it. That's why I said that I don't see anyone saying using women isn't a big deal. I think we all agree that it is a big deal and it's downright disgusting. Just the same as a woman using a man for whatever is disgusting.

[Dating Coach]

I am guilty as charged. Do you know why "using" women as sex isn't as bad as everybody makes it out to be? Simple, most of the time it's consensual sex between two people who never made a promise of being in an exclusive relationship with each other.

 

I see what you're saying but you're treading on thin ice. If it is consensual sex and no one is misleading the other then there's nothing wrong with it in regards to either party as far as "taking advantage" or "using". Honesty destroys any sense of "used".

If two people engage in consensual sex without discussing what things are going to be like afterwards, then again, neither is using the other falsely. It could just as easily be a guy in it for a free ride as it could be the girl. People must be responsible for their own actions and if on a night of consensual sex they ignore discussing exactly what this is then it's their own fault and neither was being misleading. If a person wants to avoid being used (man or woman) then they need to discuss this before sex, not try to hold someone to some unnamed deal afterwards.

 

Most of the time, the guys in those websites don't have to resort to manipulation or deception because they know how to interact with women. Both parties know that they are "hooking up" and that no commitment is being made.

 

True. In a situation where an attractive guy with developed confidence approaches a woman, they flirt, they have fun, and then they go home together and sleep together without any discussion of "what this is" is not taking advantage of someone. It's two adults having fun. If a man or woman willingly climbs into bed and takes off their close to have sex, and they do this without saying that they only have intercourse with people they want a relationship with... well then they made their own choice. From some girls and guys I know who regularly have sexual encounters like this, I haven't heard of any of them complaining about it afterwards which leads me to believe that most people accept the One Night Stand for what it is. If there are people who do this and later complain about being used, they should accept responsibility for their own actions rather than blaming others.

 

I remember listening on the "Today" show how young women were increasingly engaging in short-term relationships. You people make it sound like that all women are sweet, innocent virgins who are getting preyed upon by creepy, evil players. Women enjoy sex just like men do.

 

This is true. I've known just as many players as I have scandalous women. Both genders are equally crazy IMO, just usually in different areas.

 

On the other hand, a lot of shy guys are getting castrated by a lot of "misinformation" that shames guys into not showing their masculinity. They are not told that women expect them to take the lead. These guys never learn to properly interact with a women since they are told to treat women with politeness, and respect. Instead of learning how to confident and assertive, shy guys are encouraged to accept their shy nature and being deferential to others. If they dare utter the blasphemous thought that they want to have a sex with a women they don't know, they are judged as being lecherous and a pig.

 

You SHOULD treat women with politeness and respect. You should treat everyone this way, unless the person disrespects you or others. However I do see what you are saying and you are correct. A lot of good guys have a very difficult time breaking out of their self defeating molds and are desperately unhappy because of this. A lot of these situations have to do with false information and false expectations.

 

Just look at these baords. You see all of these guys posting on here who have nearly identicle scenario's and pretty much all of them are hurt and upset. Not only this but this whole situation is a repetetive situation for them. One guy on a thread in here was talking about how his consistant failures have cause him to resent life. He clearly was failing in an area that he deserately wanted to cease failing yet he had no idea how to because everything he's told was to continue to do what it is he was doing.

What was he doing? What everyone talks about. Respect women. As I said, you SHOULD do this. However what no one ever really teaches you is that you also must equally respect yourself. And sometimes respecting yourself comes into conflict with respecting a girl. How do you handle this? It truly is a case by case scenario and one in which you should tread carefully, but the problem is no one talks about this so these shy guys keep taking the advice to continue respecting women and they continue to be clueless on how to respect themselves.

 

Einstein himself said that true stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[CrazyKing]

As much as I know - girls will very often do the opposite of what they say (this isn't meant to offend), I know a girl who (between friends & colleagues) will always say that she'd rather hit me with something than to participate in an activity together with me (like it was when I attended the university), when we're alone, she talks to me like a little cat I can play with - it's her way of flirting, I experience that quite often that they want you to be rude in a nice way to them...

 

I think such girls check guys that way - if they see that you're verbally stronger, they'd be more open to you, that is why nice guys don't really get the girls they want, because they often are too weak and try to run away from such conversations and they don't try to provoke girls to these verbal fights where they determine a guys masculinity...

[Miss M]

I read over galaxy's comment and suspected that it might be what you are referring to, but wasn't sure. One doesn't know for certain without asking.

 

I still don't see galaxy saying it's not a big deal. He said he's morally opposed to it. That's why I said that I don't see anyone saying using women isn't a big deal. I think we all agree that it is a big deal and it's downright disgusting. Just the same as a woman using a man for whatever is disgusting.

I'd just like to point out that this is the 2nd time in this thread where you've suggested that I misinterpreted what a guy meant, while he admitted that I understood him correctly. ](*,)

 

So once again, I'm not going to discuss/debate with you what another poster is writing about. [-(

[JanetJ]

I too have acne scarring and it can be so hard. Do you think though that the scarring may be causing a lack of confidence which may be giving off negatives vibes rather then the scarring themselves?

 

From your photo I think you look pretty good. It sounds to me as though you're just having a problem meeting girls. Do your friends girlfriends have friends they could introdruce you to?

[Caldus]

Yeah I have a little acne scarring but I don't let it bother me. Honestly, I think the fact that you're uncomfortable with the acne scars is what is making you unattractive to women, not necessarily the scars themselves. I am not going to sit around and say that it's definitely not the scars either though. Have you looked into getting some kind of treatment for them? There are several treatments out there.

[CluelessGuy321]

Yeah, been getting Photodynamic Therapy with a V Beam Laser.

 

Whenever Acne finally stops, they're gonna do something called "Subscision" which is where they take a bladed needle and shove it under my cheeks and slice around.

[Trada]

CluelessGuy321, thank you so much for starting this thread. I've just spent the last hour slowly reading over every post in it and it's helped me so much. I'm 18, never dated etc. Pretty much the only senior at my school who hasn't gone out. I'm not shy. But around girls I freeze up and say stuff that isn't me talking! I reckon if a girl saw the real me they would like me back but they never do.

 

When I do try and *act like myself* around girls I come out weird. In my classes girls ignore me pretty much. If I say a joke nobody will laugh but when the popular guys say it everybody cracks up. It's not very nice!

[cosmo_lies]

CONFIDENCE CONFIDENCE CONFIDENCE!!!

You must have some or the ladies will sense that you have none and will either feel sorry for you and take advantage of your kindness or you will not get a date. From your pictures you look handsome! Trim, very nice dresser, nice clean cut hair..all a plus to me. Just build up that confidence and get out there and OWN the bar, club or dating website, and you will meet some nice ladies ;-)

Hey dont feel bad, Ive gone out on a lot of dates, thats a good thing and a bad thing!! Im 28 and still single!!

[corvidae]

How are you supposed to have confidence if no-one has ever made you feel good about yourself? Eh? How confident and self-assured would you feel if you have never managed to get a date? Somewhat of a downward spiral I think. Don't forget, women almost never reveal that they are attracted to men, thereforeeee men never get the little confidence boost that all women get everytime a man flirts with them, asks them out or even just looks at them.

[Sweet Buttabean Jellayroll]

How are you supposed to have confidence if no-one has ever made you feel good about yourself? Eh? How confident and self-assured would you feel if you have never managed to get a date? Somewhat of a downward spiral I think. Don't forget, women almost never reveal that they are attracted to men, thereforeeee men never get the little confidence boost that all women get everytime a man flirts with them, asks them out or even just looks at them.

 

 

thats why people dont have confidence

 

it dosent come from other people it comes from you........people have told me more bad things than i care too hear but its not true.

 

women do revel that they are attracted too men, it just more subliminal than anything you have too put in work

 

you dont get confidence from women you get it from yourself. you have too believe that you can conquer all........people are going too give you anything

[Tealc]

Don't forget, women almost never reveal that they are attracted to men, thereforeeee men never get the little confidence boost that all women get everytime a man flirts with them, asks them out or even just looks at them.

 

That's not right. I'm no hottie, and I don't even radiate happiness or confidence, but I still get my fair share of looks in my daily commute. Some girls have even gone out of their way.

[corvidae]

it dosent come from other people it comes from you........people have told me more bad things than i care too hear but its not true.

 

To an extent I agree, but to hold an opinion of yourself based entirely on internally generated view point borders on delusion. We ALL take our cue from the context in which we exist. If you take a person and subject them to nothing but negative reactions, well...I don't know one single person that wouldn't end up feeling bad about themselves unless they entirely retreated within themselves at which point no view is important but their own. What an odd existence that would be.

 

women do revel that they are attracted too men, it just more subliminal than anything you have too put in work

 

If it's so subtle that it's undetectable then that is equal to not showing it at all.

 

you dont get confidence from women you get it from yourself. you have too believe that you can conquer all........people are going too give you anything

 

In any walk of life, not just relationships, confidence can be a factor but it is nothing without something real and substantial to support it. The Elephant Man, with all the confidence in the world, would not be able to go into a bar and attract women. I can have the greatest confidence in the world as I walk into a maths exam, but if I have not studied then I will fail. I can't bend the universe to my will simply through self-belief. It must be supported by real ability/talent/attributes.