Making the First Move

[ShySoul]

To what you want to do, I'm just providing an alternative suggestion that has worked for me and has worked for most people I know.

 

How do you know immediately that you want to date her? What is it that sets her apart from everyone other girl that could be a potential date?

 

Yes, it leads to millions of happy relationships each year. It also leads to millions of failed relationships that never get off the ground. It leads to constant questioning of if the other person like me or not, when should I call, how to do this and that. My way is to just let the feelings develop naturally and when it happens, you don't have to think, you just follow your heart and know what to do. Unless you actually see how easy and how well it works, its not something most understands. But when it happens everything flows so smoothly its like it was meant to happen.

 

How is getting to know a girl going through hell? If that's how you look at becoming friends with them, then thats how it is going to be for you. It's a matter of patience. I have a good deal of it, thereforeeee I am willing to wait until the time is right for a relationship and in the meantime can just enjoy the millions of other things in life. On the other hand, most are impatient and like Veruca Salt from Charlie and the Chocolate factory, they "want it now." My thought is, a real lasting relationship that will last for all eternity can not be rushed, it can not be made or created through our actions. It is something that has to happen to us. When it does happen, I will do everything necessary to keep it. But until then, why spend my life worrying about it? There are other things I could be doing to improve my life and to better the world around me.

 

What I'm saying isn't that you wait six months and say you have been crazy about her. Because how can you honestly be crazy about a girl when you just meet her? A current post on the difference between love and infatuation shows this. Love takes time. Real feelings take time. You can't get them just from a few minutes. Plus, when you start to honestly feel something, have real feelings instead of a superficial attraction, then I've always said to say something to her. And you do that with class and style so it doesn't come out as creepy. If you say you want to have a talk and need to say something important, if you say that you've started to have feelings for her, it won't be creepy. It will most likely be considered sweet. And if you are friends, even if she doesn't feel the same way, the letdown will be easy, the friendship will continue, and other then maybe a brief period of disappointment/uneasiness things can resume is it was before.

 

PS. Here's what I find interesting. Carnatic, with your method you still feel uneasy talking to these girls. You still get down on yourself. And others taking the same dating approach need to constantly consult forums, books, websites, and dating guides. I, taking the exact opposite approach, has come to terms with who I am, don't need anything but my own personality and faith in myself (and the occasional word from a dear friend and loved one) and despite being shy can talk to any woman. In not expecting or trying to find out if I can have more with a girl, I am left free to simple enjoy their company and see what happens from there.

[antigravity]

How do you know immediately that you want to date her? What is it that sets her apart from everyone other girl that could be a potential date?

 

You just know... It's a physical attraction... a raw connection that you can't explain. Even in just a few hours of chatting you can get an idea of whether you'd like to know this person more. You don't have to be friends for 6 months to figure out if you want to date them!

 

See I think your confused, and subconsciously putting 'dating' at a more casual level in your mind by calling it 'friendship'.

 

Your seeing a girl to find out whether you want more from her.. THIS IS 'DATING'. Call it what you like, it's all the same thing.

 

But geez.. you must be a tough man to please if it takes you 6mths to figure out if your interested in someone.

[ShySoul]

You just know... It's a physical attraction... a raw connection that you can't explain. Even in just a few hours of chatting you can get an idea of whether you'd like to know this person more. You don't have to be friends for 6 months to figure out if you want to date them

 

But you just said a few hours of chatting. So you are getting to know her, its not a physical attraction.

 

I also never said six months. It could be 1 month. It could be 1 week. It could be 1 year. There's no timeframe. I'm just saying that I can get to know someone more by just being friends. I don't have to date to do that. And once I have gotten to know them really well, I can decide if this is someone I want an honest relationship with that will hopefully last the rest of my life. Essentially, most people use dating to get to know a person and decide if they want a relationship. I just skip that whole process, be friends and ignore having to deal with any of the complications dating brings (and there are complications, why do you think so many people need to consult books on the issue?), and let mutual feelings develop when the time is right. When they do, we can skip this dating period and get straight to a real relationship.

 

See I think your confused, and subconsciously putting 'dating' at a more casual level in your mind by calling it 'friendship'.

 

Nope, not the case. Not confused. Seeing very clearly.

 

Your seeing a girl to find out whether you want more from her.. THIS IS 'DATING'. Call it what you like, it's all the same thing.

 

It would be if that is what I am doing. But I'm not. I'm not being friends with her to see if I want more from her. The notion of wanting more doesn't even cross my mind. I am friends with a girl for no other reason then I want to be friends with her. I never expect anything else. If something develops, then I'll see where that goes. If not, I had no expectations, I am not disappointed. I don't get my hopes up, I don't date. I don't make friends to find relationships. I make friends to make friends.

 

But geez.. you must be a tough man to please if it takes you 6mths to figure out if your interested in someone.

 

For a tough man to please the things I want in a girl are insanely simple. I want someone with whom I share a connection, someone who honestly loves and understands me for who I am, and who shares similar interests and values. Anything else, not important. Is that so much to ask?

 

I'm not saying it takes 6 months. It could take any period of time. Point is, I'm not looking. I am living my own life and putting thoughts of relationships out of my head. There is so much more in life then that. When it happens, I'll embrace it. Until then, why worry about it or stress? Life has enough problems, why worry about something that is going to happen when it is meant to be? Just causes unnecessary headaches.

[Carnatic]

The thing is ShySoul, is that you are one way, we are another way.

 

Yes we make quicker judgements on whether we are interested in a girl, that's just normal and there is nothin wrong with that, I see that you are different and won't know till you know her much better, and as you say, you aren't as concerned with physical appearance, this is fine, but I wish you would stop bandying round words like 'superficial' at us, just because it is not your way and because looks play a part does not make it superficial.

 

What makes you say that constant questioning of the other person and not knowing when to call is something that only affects relationships which begin after a short period of getting to know eachother in which the motives are clear? It can just as easily happen in any relationship, I have had difficultly knowing when to call and what to say with girls I have known for a whole year, if anything it's not actually a problem with me being in her friendzone, but it's that she is in my friendzone, and I feel nervous about treating her like anything other than a friend.

 

When I say getting to know a irl for 6 months is going through hell; it is if you desperately want to tell her how you feel about her. I accept that in your case you won't have felt anything till after 6 months (or so) but I would have had feelings for her almost all along.

 

I'm perfectly prepared to take the rough and tumble of dating, I don't expect the first girl I go out with to be perfect for me, I think in my case I have to be proactive about these things and if am interested in a girl a think it could work, try it out, what's the worst that can happen? it won't work out, but I'll have mor confidence for the experience.

 

Just a note, I haven't answered my own problem by saying 'what's the worst that can happen' as that is also advice people always give me, I know already. It's not that I don't want to date, it's that I don't know how to move things from chatting to getting a phone number or arranging to meet her.

 

And ShySoul, no I don't consult books or websites, because they can't offer me tailored advice to my own situation, that is why I come on forums and ask advice when I have a problem. Nothing wrong with that.

 

And Diggity Dog

 

Yeah I know a 'Rob', quite a good mate actually. But yeah he will employ the same tactics, I have known him to flirt with girls by being openly insulting to them. He does get a lot of phone numbers and the like but things never seem to work out after that for him, I can only assume he doesn't know when to drop the unorthodox flirting style and talk to her like a proper human being. Interestingly enough, those girls who are immune to his attractions will find him annoying, full of himself and say that he isn't even particularly good looking. So it's fine for getting attention but pretty quickly afterwards you would have to show a bit of sensetivity.

[Dating Coach]

It leads to constant questioning of if the other person like me or not...

 

It does? I was under the impression that if someone is continuing to date you then they like you... oh I dunno, maybe I was wrong...

 

And being best of buds with the Object of Your Affection doesn't lead to this? If you are pals with someone for months or even years, this doesn't happen? Maybe I should post a link to that thread I started where I easily found 8 or more such stories where the guy friend was compltely confused of whether or not the girl was interested only to find out (in some cases) years later that she was never interested. I guess you forgot about that...

 

Unless you actually see how easy and how well it works, its not something most understands.

 

Funny, because the posters on this forum never seem to get this to work. Doesn't sound to effortless and easy to me... Again, should I post that link to stories about the failure of this?

 

 

 

How is getting to know a girl going through hell?

 

You are missing the point of what he is saying. Carnatic, I understood exactly what you were saying.

 

My thought is, a real lasting relationship that will last for all eternity can not be rushed, it can not be made or created through our actions. It is something that has to happen to us.

 

I don't understand this. Relationships don't happen through actions? Could you please explain, because I never woke up one morning and was in a relationship magically, so I must not be understanding what you are saying...

 

 

 

Love takes time. Real feelings take time. You can't get them just from a few minutes.

 

I agree.

 

 

If you say you want to have a talk and need to say something important, if you say that you've started to have feelings for her, it won't be creepy.

 

That's a matter for her to decide. You can't possibly know this.

 

It will most likely be considered sweet. And if you are friends, even if she doesn't feel the same way, the letdown will be easy, the friendship will continue, and other then maybe a brief period of disappointment/uneasiness things can resume is it was before.

 

This can happen but also very commonly the friendship is destroyed. We see posts about that on here all of the time so there is no arguing that point.

 

Regardless, ShySoul just said it, "even if she doesn't feel the same way..." So how much time are we wasting pursuing a romantic relationship with this girl who isn't interested? I think that proves that Carnatic is right on with his current choice of letting the girl know of his interest early on. Start off on the right foot, not the wrong one, and you can avoid the very situation ShySoul just described.

 

And others taking the same dating approach need to constantly consult forums, books, websites, and dating guides.

 

No I don't. I haven't read a dating advice website in years.

 

Carnatic, I fully support what you are doing and I think it is correct. I felt your current thoughts were being attacked and I just wanted to voice up that I agree.

[Dating Coach]

And Diggity Dog

 

Yeah I know a 'Rob', quite a good mate actually. But yeah he will employ the same tactics, I have known him to flirt with girls by being openly insulting to them. He does get a lot of phone numbers and the like but things never seem to work out after that for him, I can only assume he doesn't know when to drop the unorthodox flirting style and talk to her like a proper human being. Interestingly enough, those girls who are immune to his attractions will find him annoying, full of himself and say that he isn't even particularly good looking. So it's fine for getting attention but pretty quickly afterwards you would have to show a bit of sensetivity.

 

Yes, as Poco said about his friend, I don't think Rob can have a real relationship. He doens't know how. The only thing Rob knows how to do is get a girl interested in him right away, and be selfish. What I tried to learn from Rob (even though I never wanted a relationship like his) was what kind of things he was doing that won over women's interest. Not all of it were things that I wanted to do, so I disregarded the ones I didn't like, and worked to improve in the other areas that he was better than me in.

[Miss M]

And Diggity Dog

 

Yeah I know a 'Rob', quite a good mate actually. But yeah he will employ the same tactics, I have known him to flirt with girls by being openly insulting to them. He does get a lot of phone numbers and the like but things never seem to work out after that for him, I can only assume he doesn't know when to drop the unorthodox flirting style and talk to her like a proper human being. Interestingly enough, those girls who are immune to his attractions will find him annoying, full of himself and say that he isn't even particularly good looking. So it's fine for getting attention but pretty quickly afterwards you would have to show a bit of sensetivity.

Hopefully you guys won't mind if I poke my head in again to make another comment. But I found this point very interesting, and wanted to bring attention to it again.

 

There seem to be so many guys who see the jerks getting the girls, and they think he's doing great, getting all the attention that they wish they could get. They see him as successful, and many are jealous of him, wanting to know his strategies, wanting to adopt his tactics. But guys should remember there are always girls who just aren't interested in jerks. There are nice girls who are going unnoticed because everybody is only noticing the drama that the jerk is creating. What's that old saying?... "the squeaky wheel gets the oil"... but I just wish that there were more of us (of both genders) who could stop using the jerk as the defining essense of successful dating. And I wish the guys who are jealous of the "Rob" types would stop feeling inferior in comparison to him. And I wish guys would look around and see what they've been missing.

 

Ok, that just my 2 cents.

[Dating Coach]

Good point Miss M, however you missed the point of what was being said.

 

I'll clarify it for you as I may have done a poor job of communicating.

 

No one should be a jerk to get girls, never. Girls don't like jerks, that's just a common misconception because guys like my brothers friend Rob get girls all of the time.

 

Rob doesn't get girls because he is a jerk. Rob can't keep a relationship because he is a jerk. Rob gets girls because he does other things very well. That was the whole point. The point was that guys like Rob-although jerks-get girls because they do other things right. It's those other things that guys like Rob do that can help other guys get better at meeting women-and these things have nothing to do with the fact that Rob is a jerk.

 

Things that Rob does right:

 

-Rob has no fear of rejection.

This is a very positive quality when it comes to dating, because rejection isn't an obstacle for someone like Rob. He can approach 10 girls in one night and get rejected 9, and he wouldn't care or think twice. The ability to have no fear of rejection is a huge plus in dating.

 

-Girls never delegate Rob to "oh he's just a friend".

If Rob meets a girl she is immediately making decisions on whether or not Rob is datable. He gets right to the point so there is never any confusion to this girl as to where Rob stands as far as "Friend" or "Boyfriend". When Rob meets girls, he makes it completely obvious that he is attracted to her (I'm not saying he is offensively obvious-just clear). He is talking to her like a girl he is interested in, and he isn't playing it safe or hesistating. This is a huge plus in meeting women.

 

-Rob is Self Confident

Rob knows he can meet women any day that he wants to, so he doesn't care much about anything. While that can be bad, it can also be good in some ways too, because he won't be getting attached too quickly. The problem here with Rob is that he is TOO extreme and doesn't get attached at all, but there is a medium ground there that is a very good thing.

 

Listen to this. Many girls will probably call this disgusting, but I actually saw it happen and couldn't believe my eyes. I went with Rob to the park one day to roller blade. Rob was roller blading and we were just shootin the shat and suddenly in mid sentence Rob took off. Up ahead was this thinly framed girl. I was thinking, "There he goes..." but then Rob amazed me by not saying more than a few words to her, and then suddenly started making out with her! To this day I am still floored that he did that... I would never want a girl who would do that, but the point is that Rob doesn't care and he has confidence to do whatever it is that he wants.

 

-Rob has Self Respect.

Rob won't put up with BS. Rob does what Rob wants to do, and if a girl gets flakey, he kicks her to the curb and doesn't get caught up in drama. He wont tolerate drama or disrespect.

Now again, Rob is too extreme here for me, because he does this so extreme that it is him who is wrong half of the time, but that doesn't mean that there isn't some middle ground. Too many guys would be happy to live their life trying to please their partner, and that is just pathetic. Those people have no self respect and will let the girl walk all over him because to him, she is better than he is. Self Respect is important because it not only is necessary for someone to be truly happy, but also it makes someone more attractive. Not many women-and no good women-would want a guy that has no self respect and lives only to please her.

 

-Rob is a challenge

He is not a challenge to hook up with, but he is a challenge to control. Rob does what Rob wants to do, and if a girl wants something other than what he wants, then she can go do it without him.

Once again, Rob takes this to Jerk levels, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a lesser level here that is healthy-which ties into the Self Respect issue.

Not being a challenge is letting the girl have her way everytime. Being a good challenge would be a guy willing to compromise, but that's it. She has to meet him halfway as well or he isn't playing anymore.

 

These are just a few things. But the point is that jerks suck, but that doesn't mean that guys who are jerks and get chicks don't do some things right when getting girls attracted to them.

[ShySoul]

There are nice girls who are going unnoticed because everybody is only noticing the drama that the jerk is creating. What's that old saying?... "the squeaky wheel gets the oil"... but I just wish that there were more of us (of both genders) who could stop using the jerk as the defining essense of successful dating. And I wish the guys who are jealous of the "Rob" types would stop feeling inferior in comparison to him. And I wish guys would look around and see what they've been missing

 

Ah, always good to hear from a voice of reason.

 

People try to emulate the attitude of the jerk, without seeing that the jerk himself is really a scared boy who has no clue what he is doing. His motivations are wrong, he's hiding from himself, and he, despite outward appearances, has less confidence then just about anyone. He's a mass of lies and is unhappy.

 

These guys fear rejection more then anyone, they just mask it better. They act like it doesn't get to them, in fact it does. They just push it down inside them, bottle it up. But the loneliness still eats at them. These guys ignore a whole slew of potential loves in girls who don't want a guy who says right away they are out for a relationship. They treat friendship as something to be avoided at all costs cause you simple can't get with her later if it started of as just friends. They treat women as numbers, if one doesn't work, they'll just move onto the next. Each girl they meet isn't treated with the level of respect and attention that a nice guy would treat them, because they think they can just meet a girl any time.

 

And why do you want to emulate a guy who can't even keep a girl? Why not emulate the guy who gets and keeps a girl... a nice guy whom girls end up marrying. Why all the focus on guys who can't even get you to the ultimate destination anyways?

[Dating Coach]

And why do you want to emulate a guy who can't even keep a girl? Why not emulate the guy who gets and keeps a girl... a nice guy whom girls end up marrying. Why all the focus on guys who can't even get you to the ultimate destination anyways?

 

You obviously didn't read what I said or you you at least the point went totally over your head.

 

No one is suggesting being a jerk, and a jerk isn't the person anyone is modeling themselves after. I was telling Miss M that it seems that is what she was thinking as well, but that's not what we were saying at all.

 

The guy Rob was just an example of someone who has a lot of good traits and bad traits. I personally was open minded enough to observe and learn what he was doing right, as well as wrong. Whatever he did that I felt was wrong was discarded.

 

Rob is just one example of someone who you can learn from, but there are plenty of other examples of guys who are much better people than Rob was.

[Miss M]

Okay, there's lots I could say, (sooo tempting), but I really didn't intend to contribute to this thread going off-topic.

 

So, what was Carnatic's original question?... He's getting the girl, but wants to know how to make that "shift" in the conversation when it should lead to more. He wants input from somebody who might have some insight into what he's missing....

 

So countless times I have gone away from girls wishing I had done something, sometimes girls I met in a bar, occasionally girls I have known as friends for a while. Each time though, I can't think, what could I actually do in that situation. So picture me, in a bar, chatting to a pretty girl, never mind whether she just came up to talk to me, a friend introduced me to her or I already knew her; I am definitely interested in her, but we are just talking about music or some other common interest, what would I do to move things on from there?

 

 

An example would be, if you were in a bar with me, and saw me talking to a girl (in truth she would probably have initiated conversation as being the one to initiate it is something I am shy about for exactly the same reasons as being shy about letting her know my interest in her) you would probably look at me and think, that guy looks pretty confident, he's definitely 'in there' with that pretty girl. I chat to her about all sorts, have a laugh, play games, even sometimes initiate some light physical contact. But when I return to my mates, things so something like this.

 

mate: *nudge nudge wink wink* things went pretty well there aye?

me : er yeah

mate: so did you get her number then?

me : er... no

mate: why the hell not? she was well into you.

me : er... you think, we were just chatting.

mate: dude?!?

 

Remember guys, we're all here for Carnatic, right?

[Dating Coach]

I thought that's what we were doing. Sometimes it is good to learn from someone more skilled than you.

[Carnatic]

LOL, thanks Miss M.

 

I think I learned a lesson from the Rob story, two in fact, those are.

 

1) Just because you think a guy is a jerk, don't see that a reason to assume everything he does is the wrong way to go about it. Jerks may not be nice to girls in the long run and not good at forming relationships, but to form a relationship you have to start from attraction the one thing Rob was good at was attracting girls, so in amongst all his jerkness, there were some good qualities, as listed by DigittyDogg.

 

2) If Robs can openly insult girls without getting slapped then surely I can say something like 'can I have your number?' or at least pay her a compliment without being slapped.

 

I think I will go down the route of, first, paying her a compliment that makes by attraction a little more obvious.

[Dating Coach]

Glad I could help.

 

If you would like a more in depth answer to a lot of questions, please follow the link that I have in my signiture.

[Miss M]

LOL, thanks Miss M.

Hey there, friend! You're welcome!

 

2) If Robs can openly insult girls without getting slapped then surely I can say something like 'can I have your number?' or at least pay her a compliment without being slapped.

 

I think I will go down the route of, first, paying her a compliment that makes by attraction a little more obvious.

Oh wow... so you're getting all those good vibes from a girl when you hadn't yet paid her a compliment?!... You hadn't even told her you like her?!

 

Yeah, Carnatic... really... girls are suckers for a compliment... So yeah, go ahead and take the risk.... let her know you're interested. Wow, sounds like you're far ahead of the other guys anyway, (IMHO).

 

And here's a clue... If she's smiling at you, seems to be enjoying herself while engaged in a conversation with you, it's a pretty good chance you can at least tell her you like her without risking bodily injury. LOL ... And when you give the compliment, pay close attention... if her smile gets wider and brighter ... if she looks even more pleased, and says, "oh that's very sweet of you, thanks" ... Aw man, do get that phone number!

 

And good luck!

[ShySoul]

One, I did not insinuate that anyone was saying to be a jerk. I was just saying that people are looking at and trying to emulate the actions and attitudes of a guy who deep down is more confused then they people who are asking for help and who can't even get something real for himself. When you actually look at the people who are like this, any action of theirs is motivated by fear.

 

I caught part of a movie today, didn't see all of it or catch the name. But there was a guy who was saying much the same things I hear about being a "bad boy" or game playing. He talked about how to be a "steve", a real man. He made sure to not be emotional, not befriend. He recommended that you have to wow her and then retreat. And yet, his own love life consisted of an affair with someone married. The girl he was falling in love with couldn't stand that part of him. Instead she responded when he was being nice, playing with kids or a puppy.

 

Anyways, something she said made sense. Guys go around from girl to girl because they are afraid one girl will honestly love him. There actions are not motivated by confidence, it is motivated by fear. Fear of rejection. Fear of acceptance. These people generally have the lowest level of confidence and its odd to say we should try to follow the actions of someone like that.

 

Second, "the point was totally over your head." Well, I know I am not the tallest guy in the world, but I can reach pretty high. Anyone can grasp anything. Nothing is beyond the realm of human comprehension.

 

Third, the real reason we are here. Carnatic, I can't add much to Miss M. She's one smart women. All I have to add is that attraction can come from any source, its not something that you have to make an effort at.

[Dating Coach]

One, I did not insinuate that anyone was saying to be a jerk. I was just saying that people are looking at and trying to emulate the actions and attitudes of a guy who deep down is more confused then they people who are asking for help and who can't even get something real for himself. When you actually look at the people who are like this, any action of theirs is motivated by fear.

 

I think that is a very very WIDE generalization. Guys like Rob are confused and motivated by fear? You are talking like you are his closest friend and know. The fact is you are making a very broad generalization and stating it as fact.

 

Guys like Rob may or may not be confused and motivated by fear, I think that depends on the individual, but I don't think they are too confused about how to get a girl attracted to them since they are so good at it. To sit here and say that there is nothing to learn from this is writing off someone else's success with a closed mind. If someone is an awesome skateboarder, you don't refuse to watch and learn some pointers when he skates just because you don't like who he is. A smart person acknowledges that there is something this person does good, and it wouldn't be a bad thing to incorporate some of those skills into improving your ability or at least improving your understanding.

 

That's all I did with guys like Rob. I think Carnatic feels the same. We acknowledge that there is something that these guys are doing right so it is not a bad thing to get a better understanding of what they are doing that makes them so appealing to women that they meet. I think that I have found a lot of things that they do right, such as making their intentions clear from the start, having the confidence to approach someone that they are interested in, not letting a fear of rejection hold them back, having a healthy level of self respect, etc. I could also list a bunch of things that people like Rob do wrong, but that wasn't really the point of this thread and it wouldn't help Carnatic too much, but I would be happy to list them if Carnatic would like me to.

[antigravity]

Well I'm asking someone out tomorrow, so i'll let you know how it goes.

 

And i'm not a JERK! My problem is, I've always been too much of a 'nice guy', but I'm changing my ways, and I'm going after what I want.

 

I'll let everyone know how it goes.

 

(Have a feeling it's rejection TIME!) But at least i'm going for what I want, which feels good.

[Miss M]

I think that is a very very WIDE generalization. Guys like Rob are confused and motivated by fear? You are talking like you are his closest friend and know. The fact is you are making a very broad generalization and stating it as fact.

Okay, this probably won't change anybody's mind, but you've said that guys like Rob are "confident" and that is also a broad generalization, and very untrue.

 

Unfortunately, I've had lots of attention from guys like Rob over the years. And also unfortunately, I got to know some of them better than I wanted to. And I also say they are confused and motivated by fear. And I would even say they are the ones who are the most scared little children, (but saying that is also WRONG because it is indeed an insult to the children. ) And guys like Rob are actually emotionally truncated, disembodied. They are sooo fearful of their feelings and emotions that they've just completely detached themselves from them. And that means they also detach themselves from girls' feelings and emotions. And in their wake they leave a wide swath of female emotional carnage, a wreckage. What some see as "confidence" is actually the most extreme form of fear that's just been pushed very far away.

 

And it still really bugs me that that type of guy - the lowest common denominator - is held up as the "example" for how other guys should approach and deal with girls. Yuck.

 

DiggityDogg, you said something in an earlier post that ties into this...

Things that Rob does right

[debatable ]

-Rob has no fear of rejection.... rejection isn't an obstacle for someone like Rob.

That's because he's so afraid of his "fear of rejection" that he's emotionally detacted from it, or amputated it, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have fear. In fact, his type of detached fear is the most harmful.

 

-Rob is Self Confident

NOT... I don't even know this Rob, but from my perspective your description of his behavior is not that of a self-confident guy.

Many girls will probably call this disgusting, but I actually saw it happen and couldn't believe my eyes.

And this also helps make my point. You're using an example that you admit is disgusting to many girls. But you still see it as good and valuable to use an example to guys who are confused and lacking in self-confidence. That doesn't sit well with me that Rob's disgusting behavior is something you use as a teaching tool in this way.

 

-Rob has Self Respect.

NOT... it just APPEARS that way because we all misunderstand what we're seeing. He does NOT respect himself... and he also does NOT respect the women he approaches. Your description of him shows that, and even you acknowledge that he disrespects women. In my world men who have self-respect don't ever need to disrespect women.

 

But the point is that jerks suck,...

Yeah, they sure do. Agreed.

 

And I know you keep saying they are doing something "right" and that you're just trying to point the to the things they do right, and that you're not trying to say all guys should act like this, that you're not telling guys to disrespect women. I'm hearing you, okay? I'm really getting your point on that one, so you don't need to tell me again that I "missed the point" just because I want to try to clarify some other point. I just still disagree that this is the "example" we should all be using as a "guide" to dating. And I still think some guys will take your explanations the wrong way, and will see the Rob-types as something to emulate. And I say that because I've also had encounters with guys who've done that exact thing, looked up to the jerk as the epitome of successful dating, tried to copy that behavior. Ugh. So, from a woman's perspective, I'm just putting in my 2-cents to discourage any who are inclined towards thoughts of being a jerk-wannabee.

 

Something you said earlier is what I've been trying to emphasize...

No one should be a jerk to get girls, never. Girls don't like jerks, that's just a common misconception because guys like my brothers friend Rob get girls all of the time.

Exactly... That's also my point. Agreed. No one should be a jerk. Girls (certain ones) don't like jerks. It's just a common misconception because jerks get girls. That's exactly my point also.

 

Some of your main advice to guys is to be confident, don't be a doormat or a friend, be very clear about your intentions, indicate your interest early-on, be a challenge... And even though I don't agree with every point you make, I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it. But can't you at least make your case, or give your advice without using the jerks as an example? Because that's really insulting to some of us who've actually had to deal with them.

 

And there's something else you said...

Rob is just one example of someone who you can learn from, but there are plenty of other examples of guys who are much better people than Rob was.

I (for one) would like it so much better if you used some of those OTHER "plentiful" examples you've mentioned. If you really know of other examples of better guys than Rob, then why don't you use them as well?

[Miss M]

Antigravity, good luck!

[ShySoul]

antigravity, no one said you were a jerk. I think that you can't be too much of a nice guy and that being a nice guy is going to get you where you want. Good luck with everything.

 

Some of your main advice to guys is to be confident, don't be a doormat or a friend, be very clear about your intentions, indicate your interest early-on, be a challenge... And even though I don't agree with every point you make, I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it. But can't you at least make your case, or give your advice without using the jerks as an example? Because that's really insulting to some of us who've actually had to deal with them.

 

Agreed. What I was trying to get at is why use examples of jerks and guys who can't have a real relationship, when you can get the same message accross by using examples of good, nice guys who are confident and not a doormat, and can actually have a real relationship? When I say something, it comes to me via people in good long relationships and marriages. Those are the people I want to emulate and think are the best to be giving advice, not a jerk that you yourself admit is messed up.

[Carnatic]

I hope it goes well there antigravity. And remember, women love a distinguished hairline

 

Well I don't think Diggitydog was generalising about 'Rob-a-likes' as he only ever made statements about the one Rob he knows. I know there are many guys who preoject an image of being confident as a way of escaping who they really are, but there are also guys who are just confident and good at attracting girls because they are happy with themselves; and some of these guys are jerks, some are not.

 

I see that Rob falls into the confident jerk category, and I can understand that it would have been better had Diggity used and example of a guy who has those attractive characteristics but isn't a jerk, but I think we are all able to pick out the good parts of Rob and leave the bad 'jerk' parts on the plate. Just becuase he wasn't the most 'well rounded' example doesn't mean we can't still take something from him.

 

I actually know a guy who has the good qualities of Rob without being a jerk as well. I'll call him 'Tom' (because that's his name). 'Tom' illustrates just as well as Rob, those things that girls find attractive, however he is an actor, often playing lead roles to packed audiences in the student theatre, so he gets his confidence from that, he projects his voice and is always very noticeable among a group of mates.

 

I would be a bit different, girls may not be able to see my confidence from accross a crowded room, but since they still come and speak to me every now and again (say once or twice a month, I don't know if that would be considered often or rare, for random girls approaching guys to talk but it is plenty often enough for me) then is isn't really an issue. When they talk to me they can see my kind of confidence, I think it's more of an ability to be down to earth and put people at ease. I think that is a kind of confidence.

 

And I agree with ShySoul in that you can't be too much of a nice guy, but so long as 'nice' is all you are being, and you aren't including 'lack of self-respect' as an offshoot to 'nice'. Because that is the problem nice guys have, it's not that there is anything wrong with being nice, it's that nice and no self-respect have become intertwined to the point where many people consider a lack of self respect to be part and parcel of being nice. To antigrav and shysoul (and me) if you are able to separate the two and have self-respect without losing the niceness then women should find that very appealing.

[PocoDiablo]

Interesting discussion! Here's my take on it.

 

I like this advice, but I would change it around a little bit:

 

I think the secret is to say things that let the person know that your interested.

Yes. I agree. Be honest and upfront in a polite way.

 

You have to say something that a friend wouldn't say (hey cutie, gorgeous etc.)...

Agreed.

 

I think you need to be cheeky, without being sleazy. (I think you do this be keeping your physical distance, and not being cocky)

Agreed. Avoid being sleazy at ALL costs.

 

Keep eye contact, and smile! Also (and this is a big one) don't invade the girls space.

Agreed.

 

Make fun of yourself (girls seem to like this)

I disagree *if* you are insulting yourself. Just do this so that you still come out with a good "feeling" so to speak - a positive vibe. Never put yourself down (i.e., "I'm such a loser") but rather say things that make it funny (i.e., "I did such a loser move the other day, I can't believe it!") Or whatever. You know?

 

and never talk yourself up.

Agreed. No bragging about your car, money, job, etc.

 

Make sure the person your talking knows what your hobbies are, and hopefully they share some of them.. Talk about them obviously, but don't ask TOO many questions. Otherwise it'll feel like an interview. What you'll need to try and do is build a light conversation on an answer of hers...

Yes and no. This is a fine line - I think it is very important to learn how to use questions to build a conversation, and to *me* it is important to talk LESS about yourself. You want to give your date an opportunity to inquire about your hobbies, etc., because then this can show you if she has any interest in you - which is VERY important in my opinion.

 

If she doesn't ask anything about you, then I would assume she could care less about me!

 

Unfortunately, I think being spontaneous is the key, but before you go out, think of a couple of basic questions you might ask, and the spontaneously build on your conversation from those base questions.

Agreed. If you have chemistry with her, spontenaiety will follow.

 

That usually works, don't try and be a comedian, just be natural, and DON'T use LINES! Whatever you do... Just be yourself. If your a shy guy, be a shy guy. Don't try and be an overconfident stud, if that's not who you are.

Agreed.

 

Unless you've got a really cheesy line and it's obviously a joke!

 

MY BIGGEST TIP!

Go out to have fun with whoever your going with. Don't go out with the intention of 'picking up' or 'getting lucky'. Just go out, have fun, if a cute girl happens to be dancing near you, or sitting near you, strike up a convo, but don't let that be the prequisite for having a good night.

 

Good luck!! (you won't need it anyway... just be yourself.. If your a good guy, girls will notice)

Agreed. Being with yourself should be the #1 thing to be happy about.

 

 

 

Now, onto this point:

Yeah I know a 'Rob', quite a good mate actually. But yeah he will employ the same tactics, I have known him to flirt with girls by being openly insulting to them. He does get a lot of phone numbers and the like but things never seem to work out after that for him, I can only assume he doesn't know when to drop the unorthodox flirting style and talk to her like a proper human being. Interestingly enough, those girls who are immune to his attractions will find him annoying, full of himself and say that he isn't even particularly good looking. So it's fine for getting attention but pretty quickly afterwards you would have to show a bit of sensetivity.

I think it is HILARIOUS how so many guys look up to these kind of tactics and guys who use them. Sure, he picked up some girls by being different (not complimenting them which is different than every other guy who hits on them, so it's attrative by virtue of being different) but the most important point to realize is that Rob cannot keep these women. He cannot maintain a long term relationship. These women will all dump him. Why? Because he does not understand that he is incomplete. You can't be a jerk all the time and expect women to stick around.

 

In my opinion, women want a mature man who acts like a gentleman, but is still exciting and fun. I think the major problem most "nice guys" have is that they are too boring.

 

So ... don't be boring!

[ShySoul]

You have to say something that a friend wouldn't say (hey cutie, gorgeous etc.)...

 

What if you say those things as a friend? I've chatted with girls who are just friends and called them cutie as a way of cheering them up. I think its just part of my natural personality.

 

Make fun of yourself (girls seem to like this)

 

Goldmine of a tip. That's why I always say not to tease the girl, but tease yourself. Shows the sense of humor and that you don't take yourself too seriously.

 

and never talk yourself up.

 

Be honest. If the conversation goes to something about yourself, its fine to say you have a good job or something, be proud of what you have earned. But don't go overboard and brag.

 

Make sure the person your talking knows what your hobbies are, and hopefully they share some of them.. Talk about them obviously, but don't ask TOO many questions. Otherwise it'll feel like an interview. What you'll need to try and do is build a light conversation on an answer of hers...

 

Actually, best interviews feel more like a conversation which is what you want. But I get the point. You don't want to bombard them with questions and overwhelm them. Think it should be 50/50. Just go with the flow and don't put too much thought into it. As long as you are both talking and having a good time, thats what counts.

 

That usually works, don't try and be a comedian, just be natural, and DON'T use LINES! Whatever you do... Just be yourself. If your a shy guy, be a shy guy. Don't try and be an overconfident stud, if that's not who you are.

 

 

So true. But I do want to be able to use this line just once for pure comedy sakes: I know they say milk does a body good, but girl, how much milk have you been drinking?

 

 

And I agree with ShySoul in that you can't be too much of a nice guy, but so long as 'nice' is all you are being, and you aren't including 'lack of self-respect' as an offshoot to 'nice'. Because that is the problem nice guys have, it's not that there is anything wrong with being nice, it's that nice and no self-respect have become intertwined to the point where many people consider a lack of self respect to be part and parcel of being nice. To antigrav and shysoul (and me) if you are able to separate the two and have self-respect without losing the niceness then women should find that very appealing.

 

 

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they are constantly told that nice guys finish last, that only jerks get girls, and that nice guys get stereotyped as being weak, childish, insecure,etc. More they are told it, more they believe it. It's hard to break out of the cycle then. Repetitiveness is a powerful thing. They are told this so much that they begin to believe it. Then they get an inferority complex and that causes them to miss out on chances that are there. I'm fortunate in that I have never been one to pay attention to others, instead followed my own heart and my own path. So it was easier for be to accept my shyness and nice guy traits as good things and not something bad. Anyone can do that, they just have to believe in themselves.