Dating Question - Who Pays?

[annie24]

True - I've never actually gone out and protested.

[BillyJean714]

My point is- if a guy claims that he's really for woman's equal rights, and expects her to pay on the first date, then why doesn't he go protest and stand up for women? If he's REALLY that fair-minded and truly that sincere about it, why isn't he doing that?

 

I stand up for my own rights. If I were put in that predicament, of course I'd protest. I just think that for those who claim that they're really watching out for us woman's backs, if they're going to be that fair, then they would at least stand up for us as well. But, this doesn't seem to be the case. It just seems like another excuse for them to use against women.

[annie24]

Well, actually, I am in a line of work where EVERYONE at that level gets the same salary. Men and women. I definitely have equality in my workplace.

[DN]

In Canada, where I live, equal pay for equal work is the law. There is also a law about Equal Pay for Work of Equal Value; where a woman can claim discrimination if it is determined that she is paid less for her work than a man in another and different job in the same company, providing an adjudicator determines that the jobs are of equal value to the company. That law only applies to a woman comparing her job to a man - a man cannot compare his job to a woman, nor can a woman compare her job to that of another woman.

[melrich]

My point is- if a guy claims that he's really for woman's equal rights, and expects her to pay on the first date, then why doesn't he go protest and stand up for women?

 

Is who pays really about equal rights?

 

I like RayKays response. Who asks pays. Personally if I ask someone to dinner or lunch or whatever, male or female, I pay for it.

[BillyJean714]

No melrich,

 

A previous poster did elaborate on woman's equal rights and also made reference to feminist literature. My point is, if that person is so adament about it, then do something about it. If people truly believe that being chivalrous = discrimination against women- making women socially inferior, then if they're so gung ho about it, be more proactive.

 

Too bad I don't live in Canada. In fact, I would love to visit Canada someday, to see how life is like over there.

[DN]

'Who asks pays' is a nice concept provided that both men and women are prepared to do the asking.

[melrich]

'Who asks pays' is a nice concept provided that both men and women are prepared to do the asking.

 

LOL that's a point....No but seriously I don't think it makes a difference. Its not about a scoreboard, it's about what you are comfortable with. If I asked someone to dinner I simply would not be comfortable with asking them to pay,...they are there because I invited them.

[BillyJean714]

Good. I do the same, male or female- it doesn't matter.

 

If it's an official first date, I prefer the romantic, traditional way. My preference- nothing wrong with it. For others to say that it's wrong, well, that's their opinion. Like I said, everyone has their own preference.

[RandomAdvisor]

I think minorities shouldn't be discriminated against and have equality too. But I've never actually done anything tangible to fight for their rights. Does that make me a racist? Does that mean my belief in equality isn't sincere?

 

I understand your point BillyJean, but I think it's a little ridiculous. If fighting for the things you believe in is the only way to validate your beliefs, then no one believes in anything anymore.

[ShySoul]

teacup, you're welcome. Hope things are going good for you.

 

I'm with BillyJean. I think that if guys are going to expect equality in this regard, they should be as vocal in other regards. Though I wouldn't say they need to be out protesting all the time. People may not have the time to be able to be that involved in a cause. Or they could be involved with some other cause they feel very passionate about. I think they need to be showing a consistent pattern of respecting women and fighting for equality whenever they can. Otherwise, it could easily be taken as wanting the girl to pay or taking advantage of her, even if that wasn't the intent.

 

Oh, and I have to say.... "Oh Canada....."

[armchairshrink]

I don't see very many women who want equal pay for equal work going out and protesting to demand it.

True here, too. I never protested for it and haven't seen anyone else recently protesting for it either. But I'd like to thank each and every person (woman and man) who did, since I have reaped the benefits of their efforts.

 

So, back to the original topic for Catlover: Whoever asks, pays. That's my rule. It's not only courteous, it's logical. Think back to the days when credit cards weren't given to 10-year-olds, and all dates had to be paid for in cash (still a common situation with the younger set). Whoever is paying has to know how much money to have available for this little adventure, and the only one who knows that is whoever plans the date -- usually, the one who asked for the date in the first place. It's much easier to know that if the Asker and the Payer are the same person, and it keeps you from the embarrassing consequence of having to wash dishes afterward.

 

Even us old fogeys with credit cards benefit from that sort of planning. Ever take a bunch of coworkers out to lunch, and have your credit card refused because you were over the limit? I have. Needless to say, I never want that to happen again.

 

BTW, every boyfriend I've ever had has felt same way I do. Coincidence? Probably, but a lucky one for me. I've never had to quibble with a date over money. And judging from the heat of the arguments on this forum, I should be down on my knees thanking the Deity of Dating for that blessing!

 

The moral of the story is this: date who you're comfortable with. Whatever your requirements for happiness or comfort are, whatever your values, find a guy that has them. If he makes you uncomfortable along any of your dimensions on the first date, then don't date him again. Or, if you're inclined, give him some slack and a second chance. It's your choice. Like mother always said, "Use your better judgement; you're not stupid."

 

SomeGuy, DN: Thanks. I am of an age where all my boyfriends and I were raised with that notion that if the man pays, then the woman has to put out. And if she didn't want to, too bad -- he was entitled to take "fair compensation" for all the money he'd spent. I AM SO GRATEFUL THAT THOSE DAYS ARE OVER that I just can't express it, especially since I've dated a few creeps in my time. The Equal Rights Amendment may be dead, but thank you for remembering what all the shouting was about.

 

Teacup: Sorry about your rough past. I was raised by an emotionally abusive father, so I can empathize, even if I can't directly relate. He used to use money (among other things) as a means of control too (like your ex), and it's something I still haven't forgiven him for. I'll skip the details, but my early experiences made me swear that I would never be that dependent on a man again. I never again want to wonder where my next meal is coming from, or be forced to thank my abuser for every bite I take of that meal.

 

That vehemence showed up in my early dating relationships, too. But I went in the completely opposite direction from you -- I always wanted to pay or go dutch, to prevent my date from having that much control. I also wanted to drive, to prevent that whole "put out or get out" scenario. Luckily, my dates understood -- usually after only one meeting with my father (yeah, he was that obvious). Fortunately for me, the guys that became actual boyfriends showed me that my father was the exception, not the rule. I learned to relax and to trust, and even to let them pay and drive -- sometimes.

 

The other thing I learned is this: abuse is incredibly invidious. Some issues can persist long after the relationship is over. It's unbelievable how the abusive b@$t@rds get into your head and leave their droppings there. Their nasty thoughts twine around your brain and eventually their nasty words somehow work their way out of your mouth. Sorry about the gross imagery, but I hope you understand. Therapy can help you deal with any residual gunk your ex may have left, and it's no shame to go (despite what abusers might tell you).

 

I also found this website interesting:

The moderator is a psychologist (or psychiatrist) who will answer your questions online! There is also a forum, like enotalone, but I warn you: the postings can get rather heated. Here on enotalone, the moderators work hard to make sure everyone stays at least polite; it's a little wilder over there.

 

Good luck!

[RandomAdvisor]

armchairshrink: Will you marry me?

[teacup]

hey armchairshrink,

what kind of issues persist after an abusive situation? i think i suffer from a lot of them, but if you could pinpoint some of them it would really help. thanks!

[BillyJean714]

I understand your point BillyJean, but I think it's a little ridiculous. If fighting for the things you believe in is the only way to validate your beliefs, then no one believes in anything anymore.

That's just YOUR opinion. It doesn't mean that your opinion is better than mine!

 

I don't think it's ridiculous at all. I think that if a guy to says that he's really standing for woman's equal right, and expects her to do all of the courting, I think he's ridiculous if he's not sincerily standing up for what he believes in.

 

I'm not expecting him to go protest all of the time. If he truly feels that strongly about it, he would participate in supporting women rights in the little things that he does more often. Actions speak louder than words. If his actions don't match with what he says, then he's just full of it. It's also an easy way for men who are sexist, who don't respect women to say, "Yo woman! Why don't you pay for ME??" With that kind of mentality, I would find it hard to believe that a person like this is truly looking for a woman's back by pushing for equality.

 

I think my opinions are just as valid as anyone's. At least I don't go around degrading your opinions just because it's different. Enough said.

[darkblue]

Billyjean, I don't think anyone was degrading anyone's opinions.

I think my opinions are just as valid as anyone's. At least I don't go around degrading your opinions just because it's different. Enough said.

[Beec]

I don't mean to pick a bone with BillyJean. I jsut quote because she tries to make a point, adn the oppsite might be true as well.

 

If a woman truly believes in equality, she should be as ready to pay as to let the man pay. Indeed, there should be some way of dividing the payments relatively equally. I could see there being some slant if one person made a lot more money, but otherwise, if they thougth equal was equal, payments should also be equal.

 

Personally, I hate going dutch, love it when a woman will pay for things sometimes, but she won't get to pay all the time. Who pays how often and how much, well, it's not somethign I want to calculate. I think that when I realize she has not paid very often, that something in my head begins to not like it. If she wants to be with me, she should put something into it.

 

I would also say that a woman just expecting me to pay all the time is a turn off. I might want to pay, but I don't want it to be expected. And when I do, a thank you would be nice. I'd like to know she appreciates it, and if she cannot get a thank you out, she doesn't appreciate it enough. If she never offers to pay (unless she just has no money) and never says thank you, I will have a problem.

 

I have no problem holding doors for women. To me it is quite natural, but when I do, ladies, say thanks. It seems to go along the same lines.

 

Now, I have dated a woman who wanted to pay half all the time. I did not really like it, but I liked her. So it lasted for quite a while. I saw a woman for quite a while who enver thanked me and expected me to pay, which is how I learned it bothered me.

 

I think we all have out own thoughts about this, and I think we all need to work out with the people we date what happens. If this is a deal breaker, then know it going in. But be ready with enough in your wallet to pay your own way for the night.

[RandomAdvisor]

I don't think it's ridiculous at all. I think that if a guy to says that he's really standing for woman's equal right, and expects her to do all of the courting, I think he's ridiculous if he's not sincerily standing up for what he believes in.

 

Who's saying women should do all the courting? All I've been saying is that it should be more equal.

 

 

I'm not expecting him to go protest all of the time. If he truly feels that strongly about it, he would participate in supporting women rights in the little things that he does more often. Actions speak louder than words. If his actions don't match with what he says, then he's just full of it.

 

Have you been to protests for all the causes you believe in, or contributed money to them?

 

Looking at the everyday actions of people is a better gauge I think, and I'm glad you bring it up. In this particular example of sharing the burden with dating, I think it's pretty straightforward. A guy thinks he shouldn't have to pay for everything on the first date (or maybe all the dates for that matter) because times are changing. Those are his words. His actions? He puts up half the cash for the bill. Seems simple enough to me.

 

It's also an easy way for men who are sexist, who don't respect women to say, "Yo woman! Why don't you pay for ME??" With that kind of mentality, I would find it hard to believe that a person like this is truly looking for a woman's back by pushing for equality.

 

If a guy says he supports equality and thinks sharing the financial burden on dates is part of that, and his idea of "equality" is that the women should pay for everything, then of course he's a hypocrit and a freeloader. I'm not going to defend that. And that's not what I'm advocating.

 

I'm not sure why you think I was degrading your opinion. Is it because I used the word "ridiculous"? If I had said extremely unrealistic, or "silly" would you have still felt I was degrading your opinion? I'm still waiting to hear how many causes you've protested for.