Gay marriages

[lillady898]

I don't even know where to start on that... So, maybe I won't. This seems like a very circular debate. I understand all the opposing points of view, but I guess I just don't agree. Which is obvious because at this point, we're all really just asking the same questions and saying the same things. Oh well. Nevertheless, I've found this to be a fairly interesting thread.

[darkblue]

I don't even know where to start on that... So, maybe I won't. This seems like a very circular debate. I understand your (and everyone else's) points of view, but I guess I just don't agree. Which is obvious because at this point, we're all really just asking the same questions and saying the same things. Oh well. Nevertheless, I've found this to be a fairly interesting thread.

 

I thought the same thing. So replied to the part that I thought wasn't covered as much as the rest.

 

I've expressed my views, and I'll happily end it here.

[RayKay]

why do we assume there would not be another influential person in that childs life - like a close grandparent, or an older sibling, or a cousin, or sometimes even the donor parent (of an egg, or sperm).

 

It's not the same, and I think you know that more than you're letting on.

 

Don't assume to know what I think

 

I never said it was the same, I just don't think that having a mother and father is by that fact given to be "better" than having two parents of same sex, or a single parent.

 

What I DO know is from my experiences, from knowing many gay couples, individuals and from having a brother and his partner for whom this IS an issue - and knowing they would be excellent parents, whom will also be very aware of that childs needs. And whom would also ensure that child had many positive women in his life - be it me, my mother, their friends - whomever. They are tremendously respectful of women, and would be very careful to teach their children that - including knowing whom their bio-mother was.

[darkblue]

I never said it was the same, I just don't think that having a mother and father is by that fact given to be "better" than having two parents of same sex, or a single parent.

 

And you're assuming that same sex parents will do the same job as two opposite sexed parents?

[RayKay]

I never said it was the same, I just don't think that having a mother and father is by that fact given to be "better" than having two parents of same sex, or a single parent.

 

And you're assuming that same sex parents will do the same job as two opposite sexed parents?

 

I am saying NO two parents whatever their sex can do the same job as two other parents, or one other parent, or five other parents. And to base assumptions on how they would be raised, or how their life would be due to their parents being gay is not very fair, or accurate.

 

I have said many time I am sure there will be bad gay parents, just as there are bad straight parents, I am sure there will be GREAT gay parents, just as there are GREAT straight parents - and most people will do the best they can whatever their sex is, whatever their relationship status, whatever means they have, to give the best they can to their children.

[SeaBisquit]

so then if we take one very intellectual gay and put them together with a very rich gay this will = a gay that may be worthy of being a parent

 

because something here just isn't making a whole lot of sense to me. i'm hearing that a child growing up in a gay environment will not have any structure. where's the proof to that. i want to hear the facts.

[OceanEyes]

With all of the other crap going on in the world, why shouldn't we just embrace love in any form it may take? I swear, it must be human nature to create issues to escape the mundane.

 

Love is love. Straight people don't have a monopoly on it.

 

Agreed, but children are a different matter.

 

Okay. If you say so.

[SeaBisquit]

i think many people are just brought up to be close minded. they cannot accept something or someone that is different from themselves. they view things in a way in which they were taught. not to be able to choose to decide for themselves. only to be able to choose a life style in which they see fits. anything else just wouldn't be logical.

[darkblue]

With all of the other crap going on in the world, why shouldn't we just embrace love in any form it may take? I swear, it must be human nature to create issues to escape the mundane.

 

Love is love. Straight people don't have a monopoly on it.

 

Agreed, but children are a different matter.

 

Okay. If you say so.

 

Was that sarcasm?

[shes2smart]

So basically what you are saying is - throw them into this environment; and hopefully the trouble which is caused will be made up for in later life?

 

Ridiculous if you ask me.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying, but that is how you are choosing to interpret it.

 

A situation someone sees as negative isn't necessarily negative in the larger picture.

 

Our lives are what we make them. Parents and childhood aside, at some point each of makes the choice to either become fully responsible for our lives in the present or to keep laying blame on past events for an unsatisfactory present.

 

The only truth in this matter is no one has an answer for this issue that is going to be 100% true 100% of the time.

 

In any event, I thought you had declared yourself finished with this thread a few pages back......or perhaps I misinterpreted what you said.

 

On the other hand, this will be my last post to this thread.

[SeaBisquit]

Or you can look at it this way. Maybe gay people see us straight people as being ridulous.

[darkblue]

If people would stop provoking for my response; I would be finished.

 

I have no interest in potentially disrespecting others, but as others speak with this subject with as much opinion as me - it's difficult to find common ground.

 

The reason I kept posting is because I don't want my posts to be disected whilst I can't defend them - and I have the right to defend my beliefs.

[OceanEyes]

Was that sarcasm?

 

Partly, but very affectionately-intended. It was more of a realization that there is no way to actually come to a resolution in situations like this. Going back and forth with different viewpoints isn't going to change your mind, is it Dark?

 

People have a right to believe what they want to believe.

[darkblue]

Was that sarcasm?

 

Partly, but very affectionately-intended. It was more of a realization that there is no way to actually come to a resolution in situations like this. Going back and forth with different viewpoints isn't going to change your mind, is it Dark?

 

People have a right to believe what they want to believe.

 

I admire your character.

[lillady898]

i think many people are just brought up to be close minded. they cannot accept something or someone that is different from themselves. they view things in a way in which they were taught. not to be able to choose to decide for themselves. only to be able to choose a life style in which they see fits. anything else just wouldn't be logical.

 

Not the case. Just because I don't accept an idea doesn't mean I am close-minded. Now, I could be called close-minded if I hadn't fairly considered other views. But that is not the case with me. I have considered other views, I have looked at all the facts, and I have thought deeply about this. I still disagree, but because I have taken a considerable effort to analyze the opposing views, I am not close-minded.

 

My psychology textbook said something I will always remember (very odd to find in a textbook). It said: It is important to be open-minded, but not so open-minded that your brain falls out.

 

Just because people have different views does not mean that they are close-minded. I am actually friends with a gay male, believe it or not. I may not completely agree with his lifestyle, but I will fight the cause- Not him personally. And this is something we just don't talk about. Something I've realized growing-up is realizing that just because people are different or have different views, you don't look down upon them as the dirt you walk on. You respect them for having a view. Yes, even if that means someone disagrees.

[shiminimo]

lillady,

 

Do you know any gay people would you sit around the dinner table and have dinner with them?

[SeaBisquit]

i think those that cannot accept that the world does not revolve around there virtues and opionions are just afraid.

[lillady898]

Do you know any gay people would you sit around the dinner table and have dinner with them?

Yes, in fact, the gay man I had talked about in my previous post went to the pub with me and another friend last weekend. Like I said before, I don't condone or agree with some of his beleifs/actions, but we put it aside for both of our sanity. I have straight friends I disagree with as well. Honestly, who doesn't?

 

i think those that cannot accept that the world does not revolve around there virtues and opionions are just afraid.

Nobody is going to have all of the same opinions. It would be naive to think otherwise. And just because someone disagrees does not mean they are waiting for the world to have the same opinion. I accept other opinions for what they are. If what you say is correct, you must be afraid as well. Please, you're basing this purely on emotion. Noone can honestly mean this.

[SeaBisquit]

i don't mean to be inconsiderate of other people opinions. i guess it's just that i have such strong feelings on this topic myself.

 

my mother just said to me the other day that she cannot understand why i have so many gay friend but that i cannot accept the fact that my own brother is gay. it is mostly because he is my obly brother and i want him to be able to have a family, and for my own selfish reasons i want neices and nephews.

 

it was very hard for me growing up because i was ridiculed all the time because my brother was gay. I always thought omg people are treating me like crap because my brother is gay. i wonder what he is dailey going thru.

 

I remember my brother was beat up alot by other people . i had to defend for him often. i always felt badly for him and wondered what in must be like for him to go through life being different.

[lillady898]

i don't mean to be inconsiderate of other people opinions. i guess it's just that i have such strong feelings on this topic myself..

 

Yeah, it's really difficult to remember that people feel just as strongly about their opinions as you feel about yours. It's something I struggle with all the time. And seeing as how your brother is gay, I can see why this is more of an emotional debate for you.

 

I remember my brother was beat up alot by other people . i had to defend for him often. i always felt badly for him and wondered what in must be like for him to go through life being different.

 

See, I think there is just a misunderstanding between different views. Many people tend to believe that because I don't think there should be gay marriages or gay adoptions, that I hate gays and want to see them miserable. That definetly isn't the case. Those thoughts don't always go hand-in-hand.

 

It may be difficult to understand, especially by those with a strong emotional connection with homosexuals. I would never physically hurt another human being purposely. Especially for their beleifs! Also, I don't taunt gays and I don't act cold and disrespectful towards them. They are human and will be treated as such by me, even if I don't agree with some of their beleifs. I know there are other individual beleifs they may indeed share with me.

 

Now others that may agree with some of my beleifs, may have other values completely out of whack that compells them to be vicious towards homosexuals. That is something completely different than I would ever speak of, or ever act towards.

[leicesterstreet]

There's a few things I need to point out here:

 

A large majority of gay people don't even want a relationship, let alone marriage and children, so why bother give people an opportunity they won't even use?

 

The other thing is, gay relationships are so volatile I would be reluctant to expose children to that kind of environment. Yes straight relationships can be just as bad (although better overall), and to be blunt, I don't think anybody, gay, straight, single, coupled or otherwise should be given rights to have kids willy nilly. If it was up to me you be required to obtain a license to have a child.

 

Under what conditions the license is given is a debate within itself which I won't go into on this particular topic.

 

The bigger question is why do people have kids? Wanting to have kids is a selfish act, it's about extending yourself. Let's face it, there's enough pple in the world, we need to stop breeding. Humans can face a lot of pain and suffering in their life, some more than others, and bringing a child into the world to face that suffering is cruel.

 

Maybe I'm bitter and cynical, but most relationships are warped and twisted, especially gay relationships (for who knows what reasons), and exposing kids to that is not right. If we are going to allow raising of children it should be under very strict conditions - not based on sexuality but other factors.

[DN]

There's a few things I need to point out here:

 

A large majority of gay people don't even want a relationship, let alone marriage and children, so why bother give people an opportunity they won't even use?

 

The other thing is, gay relationships are so volatile I would be reluctant to expose children to that kind of environment. Yes straight relationships can be just as bad (although better overall), can face a lot of pain and suffering in their life, some more than others, and bringing a child into the world to face that suffering is cruel.

 

Maybe I'm bitter and cynical, but most relationships are warped and twisted, especially gay relationships (for who knows what reasons),

 

Other than your opinion, and maybe some personal observations, do you have any hard evidence to back up these sweeping assertions?

 

It is possible to get hard evidence about divorce statistics. Here is an example: link removed These are hard statistics based on court records. What sort of similar evidence can you cite for for your assertions about gay relationships other than conflicting 'studies'? Any study of gay relationships cannot yet be as definitive as divorce statistics because it is only very recently and in very few jurisdictions that gays can marry.

[leicesterstreet]

Your right in that I am making a generalisation and with any generalisation there are always exceptions. You are also correct that there are no definitive studies to accurately potray the success of gay marriages, so I only have my personal observations to rely on.

 

To be honest, I wasn't even referring to gay marriages at all, but gay relationships in general. Gay marriage is not legal in Australia.

 

I think that gay culture as a whole is highly individualistic and places an excessive amount of emphasis on the sexual act, which I find bizarre and quite contrived.

 

I think any group of people wanting to have children should be heavily scrutinized. Now given the moral impropriety of a large proportion of the gay community (and I do stress there are exceptions who do not follow such trends), they should definitely face this same scrutiny. Children are just too precious to gamble with.

 

I know of a gay man who is I'd say is in his mid 40's who is about to have his first child with a lesbian couple through IVF. This same man is happy to pursue men half his age for sexual gratification. I find this appalling in itself, but one would hope he would be trying to live the best way that he can, if only to set an example to his presently unborn son and throughout the remainder of his son's life.

 

A study of homosexual men under age 30 in Amsterdam, sponsored by the Dutch AIDS project and published in AIDS 2003, found that single men acquire 22 casual partners a year, men with a steady partner acquire eight casual partners a year, and "steady partnerships" last an average of 18 months. (2) In a book published in 1996 and entitled Virtually Normal, Andrew Sullivan argues that stable homosexual couples have a "need for extramarital outlets".

 

Keep in mind this was only a study of men, so lesbian couples may be more stable. Overall, it would be lovely to think that Gay Relationships are "on par" with straight relationships in terms of healthy functionality, however, this just isn't the reality. Now I'm not saying rule out all gay couples based on this, what am I saying is that we should be damn careful about who we let raise our kids. This applies to straight people as well.

 

This is why I think people should have a license to have kids.

[DN]

Did the study in Amsterdam have any similar statistics for how many partners straight men have? Were there control groups? Has the study been replicated there, or anywhere else?

[leicesterstreet]

I'm quite certain the study did not look at straight men at all, butI'm not sure of the exact specifics of the study.

 

This online book may be of some interest to you:

 

link removed

 

It suggests (particularly around pages 80-90) that straight men would be just as promiscious as gay men if women allowed them to be, but women act as "natures brakes" in terms of sexual conduct.