Was she just being nice or...

[rainbowsandroses]

19 minutes ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

It's not dishonest or cowardly to remove yourself IMO when you like someone, and it's clear they're not interested. 

But it's not clear. That's your perception based on your fears.  But it not clear at all, not by a longshot.  As said in my previous, you never even asked her out on a date, so how could you know?  You don't, you couldn't. 

I wish you could see how your fears are driving your ship causing you to behave in ways that are detrimental to what you say you want. 

Said my piece, good luck man. 

[TheLambOfDeth]

58 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

What signs have you given her that would indicate your interest more than just a friendship?   

Asking her if she wanted to grab coffee or a drink? Trying to talk to her about her art, passions, etc. Saying I wanted to be a fixture going forward? IDK how much I'm supposed to do when I'm given so little to go on..

 

Quote

You asked her for coffee, big whoop, you said yourself it was not a date.   You sent her a video, again not an indication of interest, it's something a friend would do. 

It was a step to demonstrate I was interested in her beyond just volunteering at her space. And I sent a film recommendation. She canceled on the coffee meet, and just sent emojis to the film message. Why would I try something more, if she just brushes off my attempts to be friendly??

Quote

Yet now you're complaining she didn't want to talk about it.  Did YOU initiate talking about it?  Again, from what I have read,  you have done nothing that would suggest to her you're romantically interested beyond a friendship.

Why would I send her a recommendation of something to watch, and not want to talk about it? Yes, nothing I've suggested has been romantic leaning, but even the basic, friendly stuff I do is shrugged off with no interest.

Quote

 

Most women unless they're seeking casual sex are not going to be so bold and forward like scooting over to your side and initiating physical contact as you just posted you expect. . 

Many men especially on those manosphere sites do expect that from women and it's  just wrong. I'm sorry but that's pure entitlement.

 

To clarify, she did ask if I wanted to scoot closer to her, but she didn't any contact. And no, I'm not asking for her to mount me, or be super forward, I was trying to demonstrate nothing she's done has been more than just being "nice"

And Idk why you keep mentioning "manosphere". I never once mentioned that, someone else did. I don't really listen to any of that stuff so IDK what those men expect, but I don't expect that anyway. I'm ugly and anxious, I don't expect women to do anything in regards to me. 

Quote

YOU must escalate.  You must be able to risk rejection or you may as well give up on dating altogether because most women are going to be waiting for a clear signal from you that you're interested beyond friendship, which again from what I've read you have not done. 

Neither has she. Again, not asking for massive, gaping hints on moves to be made, but in most cases when a woman is interested, she gives indicators or...something.  She's the one playing with house money here. I'm the one that's been putting myself out there with her.

Quote

My point is SHE may be and probably is waiting for a clear sign from you that you're interested before she feels comfortable indicating her interest. 

I think asking someone out for drinks/coffee is a clear sign you have some interest in them.

Quote

At least ask her on a date man, come on. That's the least.  Make it clear it's a "date" and not a friendly coffee meet and if she rejects or puts up roadblocks okay then you can walk away and lick your wounds.

Shes done nothing to suggest she's remotely interesting in going on a date with me. Again, I couldn't even get platonic coffee with her. I don't see what's the difference between not asking and asking when you already know she's not keen.

Quote

But as it stands now, you're waiting for her to indicate interest and she's waiting for you.  You're at a stalemate.

You don't know that, though...it doesn't seem like she's waiting for anything. If she was interested, all she'd have to do is reply to my interest in kind, which she hasn't done. All roads point to her being nice, and nothing more. If you're interested in a guy, and if asks you to get coffee, if you're going to offer alternative times and dates if you do really need to reschedule. I'm not even met half way here...

Quote

Something man, come on.  Take a risk.  That's masculine energy.  Her feminine energy is receptive (if interested).

Asking her too coffee was a risk...and that didn't even happen. Why would I try to be even MORE forwards? That seems backwards.

Quote

 

Stop being so afraid.  You simply won't know her interest level and intent unless and until you ask her on a date and make it clear it's a date.  This meeting for coffee thing is NOT that. Nor is sending her a video or anything else you've done.

That's my read on it, as a woman

 

 If people are interested, if someone has an interest in you, you don't need to ask. Again, subtle hints, signs, indicators...you'll just know organically. If you have to ask, then you have you answer. It's not about being afraid, it's logistics. She's done nothing to demonstrate instrerst, or give me a reason to escalate. Again, if she was keen on me, at all beyond just being nice, she would've found a way to get coffee, and given hints and hints for me to escalate.

[catfeeder]

On 6/4/2023 at 2:59 AM, TheLambOfDeth said:

One random aside...I wear a ring on my ring finger bc I like this ring and that's the one finger it fits on, but she did ask if I was married…

Right. You’re been walking around with a symbol that says ‘already married’…

… and now we’ll be treated to a lecture on the biases of women who misinterpret wedding symbology…

Knock yourself out.

[rainbowsandroses]

31 minutes ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

To clarify, she did ask if I wanted to scoot closer to her, but she didn't any contact.

I missed this earlier.   So she asked you to scoot over to her side, which indicates she wanted to be physically  closer.  That IS a very clear indication of romantic interest, friends or a woman trying to be nice do not do this. 

My read is she may have been hoping YOU escalated, which a confident interested man would have.  Perhaps even kissed her!

But yet you're complaining SHE didn't escalate or initiate physical contact. 

I think your expectations and perceptions are way out of proportion (again based on your fears) but it's obvious you're set in believing she's not interested and plan on ghosting so there is nothing really left to say. 

Wish you the best mate. 

[TheLambOfDeth]

9 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Right. You’re been walking around with a symbol that says ‘already married’…

… and now we’ll be treated to a lecture on the biases of women who misinterpret wedding symbology…

Knock yourself out.

I don't always wear the ring, and no, I've had friends...male friends tell me it's a thing women notice and not to wear it. I'm not going to lecture anyone about anything. I just like the ring, and that's the only finger it fits on.

[TheLambOfDeth]

20 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I missed this earlier.   So she asked you to scoot over to her side, which indicates she wanted to be physically  closer.  That IS a very clear indication of romantic interest, friends do not do this. 

My read is she may have been hoping YOU escalated, which a confident interested man would have.  Perhaps even kissed her!

But yet you're complaining SHE didn't escalate or initiate physical contact. 

I think your expectations are way out of proportion (again based on your fears) but it's obvious you're set in believing she's not interested and plan on ghosting so there is nothing really left to say. 

Wish you the best mate. 

It wasn't a romantic gesture...she just asked if I wanted to move closer to her since there was room on the bench now after a friend left. It's not the way you were imagining it. It's like how your friend would say it, not someone pining for a kiss.

And I don't plan on ghosting. There's no reason to remove myself as I haven't come off as too strong or done anything unwarranted. I just don't really on escalating as there's been no opening to do so...

[rainbowsandroses]

12 minutes ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

It wasn't a romantic gesture...she just asked if I wanted to move closer to her since the was room on the bench now after a friend left

 

But yet you're using HER not initiating physical contact to justify your reasoning that she's not interested. 

When you yourself did nothing either but now saying it's because it wasn't a romantic gesture. 

That is a major contradiction mate.  Was it a romantic gesture or not?   

If it wasn't, why are you complaining she didn't initiate physical contact? 

If it was, why didn't you initiate? 

These are rhetorical questions, I don't expect you to answer, I am only asking so you recognize how you tend to twist things to support your theory she's not interested. 

Perhaps it feels emotionally safer for you to believe that which is fine, at least own it. 

 

[TheLambOfDeth]

5 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

But yet you're using HER not initiating physical contact to justify your reasoning that she's not interested. 

When you yourself did nothing either but now saying it's because it wasn't a romantic gesture. 

That is a major contradiction mate.  Was it a romantic gesture or not?   

If it wasn't, why are you complaining she didn't initiate physical contact? 

If it was, why didn't you initiate? 

These are rhetorical questions, I don't expect you to answer, I am only asking so you recognize how you tend to twist things to support your theory she's not interested.  

I'm just trying to demonstrate that none of her actions have breached that line of "just being nice". Oftentimes in cases like this, bc so many men are oblivious to signs and hints from women, people assume the person in question is missing hints, or skewing things bc of their perspective. I am not one of those men that have women throw themselves at them and they still have to ask "does she like me?". I have been given nothing to act on from her actions, beyond "she's pretty kind".

I didn't react, bc there was nothing to react to. I moved a little bit closer to her. I'm not complaining that it wasn't a romantic gesture, I'm pointing out that it wasn't. Nothing she's done has been in the slightest romantic. That's my point. If it was, I'd react. I just need a green light. Women mention all the time how they many times dislike even being nice to guys, bc they often take those actions as serious interest, get the wrong idea and it can be very annoying. This is part of the reason I don't just act on kindness. I don't want to be like those men. I don't want to make a wrong assumption, and then infringe and be a bother.

Quote

Perhaps it feels emotionally safer for you to believe that which is fine, at least own it.

I'm interested in her, and if I thought there was a possibility that she felt the same,I wouldn't shy away from it. From my POV there's no reason to want to assume she's not interested. I just have to be objective.

[Batya33]

36 minutes ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

I don't always wear the ring, and no, I've had friends...male friends tell me it's a thing women notice and not to wear it. I'm not going to lecture anyone about anything. I just like the ring, and that's the only finger it fits on.

Get it resized.   I always checked for a ring when I was dating.

[WaywardKiwi]

7 hours ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

Perhaps examples of me getting too anxious and making assumptions, but I was never too far off tbh. At the very least, expecting the worst will prevent me from coming on too strong.

Is coming on too strong something you generally do? From your description of your avoidant anxiety and general unapproachable appearance, I would have thought you run the opposite risk?

 

7 hours ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

TBH I would imagine more people, and women, in general, would rather the person they aren't reciprocating interest into just ghost, than lurk around in wait.

Reciprocating implies they have an awareness of your level of interest. To date, she has reciprocated, if not exceeded, your expressed interest, by inviting you to events, enquiring as to your relationship status and living situation, initiating physical contact, etc. If neither of you make any further expression of romantic interest, she would be entitled to believe you are satisfied with the current circumstance. If you then decided to ghost based on lack of change, you would be deciding for her.

[TheLambOfDeth]

1 hour ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Is coming on too strong something you generally do? From your description of your avoidant anxiety and general unapproachable appearance, I would have thought you run the opposite risk?

No, it's usually the opposite bc I never really escalate or plainly demonstrate interest. But that's really bc there's never really a time to do so. I never get a sign or hint that indicates there's interest on their level beyond being cordial. I don't get the signs women give when they're actually keen, and I don't want to be that guy that thinks a woman is intetested just bc she's polite.

1 hour ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Reciprocating implies they have an awareness of your level of interest. To date, she has reciprocated, if not exceeded, your expressed interest, by inviting you to events, enquiring as to your relationship status and living situation, initiating physical contact, etc. If neither of you make any further expression of romantic interest, she would be entitled to believe you are satisfied with the current circumstance. If you then decided to ghost based on lack of change, you would be deciding for her.

I do not intend to ghost, but I also don't know exactly what I can do beyond what I've done. I've been roadblocked at every attempt to extend an olive branch, but she does just enough to seem friendly...so it would seem this is the level she's comfortable with. I know most women don't give massive, blatant signs of interest...especially in semi work settings, but none of her acts have been a clear sign of interest, either. Pointing out a ring on your corresponding finger, asking what part of the city you live in, and hugs are literally things co-workers who barely like each other do. Basically, I can't reach out again bc indicators point to that not being wanted.

[LootieTootie]

On 6/3/2023 at 11:59 PM, TheLambOfDeth said:

I wear a ring on my ring finger bc I like this ring and that's the one finger it fits on, but she did ask if I was married...

 

And you're blaming women for not flocking to you....

[TheLambOfDeth]

5 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

And you're blaming women for not flocking to you....

I've literally never said I wanted or expect women to "flock" to me. I don't look like Ryan Gosling...I don't expect anyone to flock to me. I just never get opportunities. Women at bars and events aren't looking at my finger.

[Batya33]

34 minutes ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

I've literally never said I wanted or expect women to "flock" to me. I don't look like Ryan Gosling...I don't expect anyone to flock to me. I just never get opportunities. Women at bars and events aren't looking at my finger.

They totally are. You just don't see it happen.  Women always check if they have any interest in starting a convo.  Unless they're looking for an affair. And if I am just looking to start a friendly conversation -like with a dad who is there with his kids when I am with mine -I always check because it informs how I behave to an extent and tells me I can ask about his wife who of course often is the mom of the kids.  I would never flirt with a single man but if he is married I am even extra careful not to say anything that can possibly be misinterepreted as inappropriate.  

[WaywardKiwi]

45 minutes ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

I've been roadblocked at every attempt to extend an olive branch, but she does just enough to seem friendly...so it would seem this is the level she's comfortable with. I know most women don't give massive, blatant signs of interest...especially in semi work settings, but none of her acts have been a clear sign of interest, either. Pointing out a ring on your corresponding finger, asking what part of the city you live in, and hugs are literally things co-workers who barely like each other do.

By way of observation, every 'roadblock' or negative indicator you have has originated from text conversations; whether it be in the delay in her responding, her late rainchecking your coffee meet, or her responding with emojis to your movie recommendation. It may be that she is not particularly comfortable or adept at this mode of communication, particularly given the counter balance of your in person interactions. It is not an uncommon issue, as many threads on this forum demonstrate.

Given her undertsanding and kindness regarding your own discomfort and avoidance with in person interactions, I would at least give her the benefit of the doubt in this regard. I recommend during your next in person interaction, you renew your coffee invitation casually, something like "Im still keen to grab that coffee sometime if you are". Better yet, do some research on a cafe/gallery/movie showing in your shared area, sInce she established that fact, and add it to the invite (given you have already had a chance for a nightcap which in some ways acts as  a get to know you like a coffee would). "I was thinking of checking out this cafe/gallery/movie, want to join? we could grab that coffee too."　In terms of interest it doesn't branch fully into romantic interest, while still moving forward and developing the relationship such as it is. 

Finally, I am not familiar with American work culture, do you regularly hug your coworkers? Were there other coworkers she invited to the nightcap? Were her friends introduced as such, or as coworkers?

[LootieTootie]

39 minutes ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

Women at bars and events aren't looking at my finger.

Well you have been constantly reminding us that you lack opportunities to date and super duper disgruntled about it. But when someone gives you advice, it seems like you rather stubbornly disagree. Even your guy friends told you women pay attention to that. Why not be open-minded that maybe all those times you wore a ring on your ring finger, maybe a pretty girl actually found you attractive but didn't want to cross any boundaries and didn't approach you ?

Believe me single women always check a guy's ring finger. If they aren't checking your ring finger, you probably didn't notice them moving their eyes to your finger. 

And its not just single women that pay attention to the ring finger. Men do too. People in general do. When I was taking public transit, I got approached by men and sometimes sat next to me making me feel uncomfortable. I just did not want to play nice or deal. So I started wearing a ring finger and it worked. 

[TheLambOfDeth]

2 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

By way of observation, every 'roadblock' or negative indicator you have has originated from text conversations; whether it be in the delay in her responding, her late rainchecking your coffee meet, or her responding with emojis to your movie recommendation. It may be that she is not particularly comfortable or adept at this mode of communication, particularly given the counter balance of your in person interactions. It is not an uncommon issue, as many threads on this forum demonstrate.

She def always seems much more...idk involved? irl when I see her, vs how digressive she is via text. And what do you mean by the bolded section? It's better just to not text her?

2 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Given her undertsanding and kindness regarding your own discomfort and avoidance with in person interactions, I would at least give her the benefit of the doubt in this regard. I recommend during your next in person interaction, you renew your coffee invitation casually, something like "Im still keen to grab that coffee sometime if you are". Better yet, do some research on a cafe/gallery/movie showing in your shared area, sInce she established that fact, and add it to the invite (given you have already had a chance for a nightcap which in some ways acts as  a get to know you like a coffee would). "I was thinking of checking out this cafe/gallery/movie, want to join? we could grab that coffee too."　In terms of interest it doesn't branch fully into romantic interest, while still moving forward and developing the relationship such as it is. 

You're right, if she does just have a hang up with texting, the least I can do is be sensitive to that, the way she has been to my in-person anxiety...but I don't really know if that's the case or if its just a hint, you know? And that's not bad advice. At least in terms of attempting to reignite the coffee meet when I see her in person. But I feel like offering two things to do in succession like that implies a date, I'd think. But she seems to respond better to things in person than via text.

2 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Finally, I am not familiar with American work culture, do you regularly hug your coworkers?

No

Quote

Were there other coworkers she invited to the nightcap? 

No

Quote

Were her friends introduced as such, or as coworkers?

Friends

[TheLambOfDeth]

1 hour ago, LootieTootie said:

Well you have been constantly reminding us that you lack opportunities to date and super duper disgruntled about it. But when someone gives you advice, it seems like you rather stubbornly disagree. Even your guy friends told you women pay attention to that. Why not be open-minded that maybe all those times you wore a ring on your ring finger, maybe a pretty girl actually found you attractive but didn't want to cross any boundaries and didn't approach you ?

Anyone with a involuntary lack of options and opportunities would be disgruntled. But yes...I've heard people on the internet and irl mention wearing a ring on your ringfinger is a hindrance in terms of meeting potential suitors, so clearly there is some merit to that.

But the issue is, I've went out tons of times sans a ring, and it's made no difference. I was still transparent to women. Where were the "pretty girls" finding me attractive then? I would love to think that's been the things holding me back from any actual attention or hints, signs, indicators, conversations, etc from women, but I have too much overwhelming proof that it isn't the case. 

 

1 hour ago, LootieTootie said:

Believe me single women always check a guy's ring finger. If they aren't checking your ring finger, you probably didn't notice them moving their eyes to your finger. 

And its not just single women that pay attention to the ring finger. Men do too. People in general do. When I was taking public transit, I got approached by men and sometimes sat next to me making me feel uncomfortable. I just did not want to play nice or deal. So I started wearing a ring finger and it worked. 

I'm sure they're oftentimes checking for a ring...if they're interested sure. And the vast majority of women aren't interested in me regardless. Ring or no ring. If this wasn't the case I've would've noticed by now. 

[LootieTootie]

1 hour ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

Anyone with a involuntary lack of options and opportunities would be disgruntled. But yes...I've heard people on the internet and irl mention wearing a ring on your ringfinger is a hindrance in terms of meeting potential suitors, so clearly there is some merit to that.

But the issue is, I've went out tons of times sans a ring, and it's made no difference. I was still transparent to women. Where were the "pretty girls" finding me attractive then? I would love to think that's been the things holding me back from any actual attention or hints, signs, indicators, conversations, etc from women, but I have too much overwhelming proof that it isn't the case. 

 

Good. Keep trying sans a ring. It's all a number game. Keep getting out but diversify where you're going to meet people. I don't know if you're just going to the bar, but hopefully you're doing other extracurricular activities many of us have advised you to do.

I also like that you will try to hang out with this nice art lady because it doesn't hurt to expand your circle and she seems like the type who can help you with social networking and maybe find you someone if she isn't interested in you. However I did find it curious that she texted you after to apologize about her friends. Either she is way too nice of a person or she actually likes you more than a friend.

 

[WaywardKiwi]

4 hours ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

And what do you mean by the bolded section? It's better just to not text her?

Sorry, I was probably trying to sound smarter than I am and ended up becoming incomprehensible. I basically just meant that the way she acts in person (open, engaged, and even proactive) suggests to me that texting isnt her go to form of communication. Its kinda Ockham's Razor, the simpliest explanation for why your experience doesn't seem consistent between the two ways of communicating. 

Unless she specifically says she doesn't like texting or asks you to stop for any reason, I wouldn't stop entirely.   While I disagree which much of the content of your posts, you are an articulate writer, and I imagine when you apply your skills in a positive way you send interesting, thoughtful and engaging texts. Perhaps limit yourself too one or two non-practical texts a week, such as if you find some art/movie/meme you think would enjoy. Just be sure manage your expectations regarding her engagement with that form of communication. She may indeed appreciate your effort and like your texts, but you are unlikely to get the kind of reassurance you likely seek from her end in that format if that is not her modus operandi. 

Alternatively, you can just use it for practical purposes such as asking direct questions and scheduling. This is often recommended by contributors here, however if you do feel more comfortable expressing yourself in that form it is fine. It shouldn't be a substitute for in person, but even if she doesnt use it that way, she may still like that you do. 

6 hours ago, TheLambOfDeth said:

At least in terms of attempting to reignite the coffee meet when I see her in person. But I feel like offering two things to do in succession like that implies a date, I'd think.

Fair enough. My advice would be to pick something which at least has some content beyond coffee, such as finding an interesting venue, as the primary purpose of coffee is the 'get to know you', which has already been partially served by the nightcap. This next coffee is to get to know you more and create a shared experience to see if you enjoy each others company external to work/volunteering. Its not dating yet, as this could result in you or her or both deciding that you enjoy friendship more than romantic interest. But friends go out to cool cafes, and art galleries, and music performances too. 

[Batya33]

11 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Finally, I am not familiar with American work culture, do you regularly hug your coworkers? Were there other coworkers she invited to the nightcap? Were her friends introduced as such, or as coworkers?

There is no American culture in this regard -depends on the workplace. In my current workplace I've only hugged a coworker I used to have lunch with (I now work remotely) and not always -as a greeting outside the office. I think I hugged a few people who were leaving/retiring.  In most workplaces I've been in -large corporate environments -it wasn't common at all.  I think the OP volunteers and in some volunteer work it's probably more open as far as hugging, etc.

[TheLambOfDeth]

9 hours ago, LootieTootie said:

Good. Keep trying sans a ring. It's all a number game. Keep getting out but diversify where you're going to meet people. I don't know if you're just going to the bar, but hopefully you're doing other extracurricular activities many of us have advised you to do.

I also like that you will try to hang out with this nice art lady because it doesn't hurt to expand your circle and she seems like the type who can help you with social networking and maybe find you someone if she isn't interested in you. 

Yeah, I can concur it's a numbers game, but it's a hard game to play with you have anxiety and low self-esteem. I wouldn't be harping on this woman so much if I actually had options. There's just no real place to meet women these days. Everyone uses dating apps, and I get nothing from that, despite all the refinement, research, and revisions I've implemented in that realm. The only place women approach me at all is bars, and I don't like bars. Yet that's really the only socially acceptable way to meet women.

Yes, that's the main goal here: social circle expansion. It just so happened I developed a crush on her. But yeah, if nothing else I'm sure she has friends that I could get to know, that might lead to something.

Quote

However I did find it curious that she texted you after to apologize about her friends. Either she is way too nice of a person or she actually likes you more than a friend.

Well, that's the thing...she does things here and there that implies more than just friendliness but at the same time never really delving past just ambiguous. It's like she does things like that and other little things, like asking if I was married, provoking me to move closer, asking for a hug, asking where I live, asking me to come out more, yet "rescheduling" a coffee meeting, and not really replying to a film recommendation text. Which is why I lean on friendly...

[TheLambOfDeth]

4 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Sorry, I was probably trying to sound smarter than I am and ended up becoming incomprehensible. I basically just meant that the way she acts in person (open, engaged, and even proactive) suggests to me that texting isnt her go to form of communication. Its kinda Ockham's Razor, the simpliest explanation for why your experience doesn't seem consistent between the two ways of communicating. 

There's def a noticeable difference...but if I'm honest, my disposition is night and day in terms of texting and irl, as well. IDK, I'm just used to women being more deliberate, elaborate, and less curt when texting. That's why I take it as a sign of indifference or disinterest.

4 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Unless she specifically says she doesn't like texting or asks you to stop for any reason, I wouldn't stop entirely.   While I disagree which much of the content of your posts, you are an articulate writer, and I imagine when you apply your skills in a positive way you send interesting, thoughtful and engaging texts. Perhaps limit yourself too one or two non-practical texts a week, such as if you find some art/movie/meme you think would enjoy. Just be sure manage your expectations regarding her engagement with that form of communication. She may indeed appreciate your effort and like your texts, but you are unlikely to get the kind of reassurance you likely seek from her end in that format if that is not her modus operandi. 

TBH that's why I prefer texting and why it's a bummer she doesn't seem to share the penchant for it. As an introvert and over-thinker, I communicate and respond much better that way. Often times while talking to her in person, I'll struggle to think of the perfect word, interjection, or retort, spur-of-the-moment, that I instantly would during a text exchange. And bc she's very witty and a quick thinker, I usually just wind up saying something not witty...and very basic lol. But yeah, I guess I won't use texts as a substitute for actual exchanges with her.

4 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Alternatively, you can just use it for practical purposes such as asking direct questions and scheduling. This is often recommended by contributors here, however if you do feel more comfortable expressing yourself in that form it is fine. It shouldn't be a substitute for in person, but even if she doesnt use it that way, she may still like that you do. 

Yeah, I hear that a lot...limiting text to setting up dates/meets or for something of substance. The only real time she has sent more than a few words for a text, is when she explained why she had to "reschedule" and after I left the nightcap, she apologized for her friends, said she had fun, and hoped I'd come out more. I'll just have to calibrate texting differently going forward.

4 hours ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Fair enough. My advice would be to pick something which at least has some content beyond coffee, such as finding an interesting venue, as the primary purpose of coffee is the 'get to know you', which has already been partially served by the nightcap. This next coffee is to get to know you more and create a shared experience to see if you enjoy each others company external to work/volunteering. Its not dating yet, as this could result in you or her or both deciding that you enjoy friendship more than romantic interest. But friends go out to cool cafes, and art galleries, and music performances too. 

I agree with all of this. This is a good idea. The issue is she's probably busy a lot and IDK if I could get her to do two things subsequently. I guess I'll have to think of something...

[Whirling D]

I see so much of myself in much of what you write… I think you and I have a lot of the same skeletons, if you will.

at the risk of being insufferable to the other people that are chiming in here, I’ll try to give you a nutshell version of what I’ve experienced over the last month with a lady I’ve just began to date…

she was the one person that liked my dating profile that I found interesting in years. But she didn’t say much. She seemed a little aloof, only marginally interested, although it was her that liked my profile… And it took a lot of back-and-forth before we finally got together.

but, what I found is that she was nothing like what she conveyed by text. She was warm, and engaging, and I was highly attracted to her because of those things.

fast forward over the next few weeks, I would belabor and get hugely anxious because she wouldn’t respond to a text the way I thought I would if I was hugely attracted to someone.  I’d get one word answers. Or she wouldn’t be as demonstrative with her praise as I thought she might upon sending her something that she might like. I could go on and on.

but it was totally different when we got together. Completely. Takeaway: this lady that I’m dating isn’t great at texting. She’s not timely. Sometimes she won’t even respond at all to something I say. That’s just the way her life works. It may or may not have anything to do with me. It seems to not have anything to do with me, because as hard as it is for me to admit, this girl actually seems to likes me… go,figure… This is shy, awkward, not very attractive feminine looking dude with long hair. She makes no bones about wanting to be with me and finding me attractive.  

my trust that this is real is almost nonexistent, similar to how you probably feel that it is nonexistent that this art lady may like you.  But I can assure you, if it can happen to me, it can happen to you… 🙂

and probably similar to you, I am still walking around on eggshells thinking that the floor is gonna fall out from underneath me at any moment. That in itself sucks.  My therapist just suggested, as many here have also, that it’s a self fulfilling prophecy… I expect it, therefore I subconsciously sabotage.  I’m not sure that I deliberately sabotage, I just expect bad things to happen. I don’t think there’s any deliberate intention for either you or I to sabotage, but I think we do because we don’t believe that there is any alternative.  If it’s not self sabotage, at least it’s not taking the steps forward to pursue something that could make us happy.

there are many on here that believe that you and I should probably not be dating secure confident women, because we lack the skills of confidence to be able to sustain a relationship without constantly looking for validation, or reasons that it’s going to implode. That is really hard on a partner, I think, and I feel it happening in my own situation constantly. But this lady hasn’t shown she’s going anywhere. Not yet. That is so hugely anxiety provoking.

but as my own personal therapist just said… We have to get out of our own head and enjoy the moments that are right in front of us. Similar to my situation, you have a lady that might just like you. You don’t know yet.  There is no way to yet know.  She may be feeling awkward about your exchanges, as well, and maybe isn’t completely sure what your interest is. You don’t know yet.

but there’s no good reason not to find out. I like the ideas of the others… Give her a call or a text and invite her out to something that you think she might like. She’ll either take it or leave it, or she’ll offer something else in return.  Sometimes, getting to know someone is a long journey, with lots of twists, and hills and valleys. She may not even know what she wants yet. That doesn’t mean there couldn’t be a future.

and like I have said in my other thread, the stakes feel so incredibly high, likely for you as well, since we don’t ever have these kinds of opportunities, so the thought of them slipping through our hands is hugely anxiety provoking. I hear you. But in someways, it’s probably better than how pathetic we will feel if we do what we’ve done most of our life, and that is sit on the sidelines and wish that something good might come to us.

well, in my case, something great has come, and I can only hope not to screw it up… I have an opportunity in front of me. You should go for it and see if it’s an opportunity that you have in front of you, as well. The goodness that you have inside of you is what should propel you to move forward and offer that goodness to this lady. You owe it to yourself, and you may even owe it to her to give her an opportunity to get to know you. She clearly wants that. Clearly. 

as my therapist would say… Don’t think. Do. 🙂

[TheLambOfDeth]

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

she was the one person that liked my dating profile that I found interesting in years. But she didn’t say much. She seemed a little aloof, only marginally interested, although it was her that liked my profile… And it took a lot of back-and-forth before we finally got together.

Well that's the difference, dude...a massive, gaping, protruding difference. When you actually meet someone from an OLD site, no matter what, you're entitled to essentially believe they're interested/attracted to you until they expressly state otherwise. My situation is the total opposite. It involves a woman I volunteer for, so unless she gives a rousing declaration of interest, I can only assume she's being cordial or polite. The dynamic in which you meet someone totally dictates feasible expectations. If a woman liked my OLD profile, and I met her through that channel, then my actions and expectations would be much different.

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

fast forward over the next few weeks, I would belabor and get hugely anxious because she wouldn’t respond to a text the way I thought I would if I was hugely attracted to someone.  I’d get one word answers. Or she wouldn’t be as demonstrative with her praise as I thought she might upon sending her something that she might like. I could go on and on.

but it was totally different when we got together. Completely. Takeaway: this lady that I’m dating isn’t great at texting. She’s not timely. Sometimes she won’t even respond at all to something I say. That’s just the way her life works. It may or may not have anything to do with me. It seems to not have anything to do with me, because as hard as it is for me to admit, this girl actually seems to likes me… go,figure… This is shy, awkward, not very attractive feminine looking dude with long hair. She makes no bones about wanting to be with me and finding me attractive.  

Again, this is vastly different. I'm not dating her, it's just friendly outings. Only and strictly outings in which her friends are present thus far. Thusly, if you're getting curt text replies, it's much more apparent than if you were actually dating, where they could be brushed off, bc you already know the person is interested. I see the parallels you're attempting to make, but they're a bit superfluous given the different relationships at work.

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

my trust that this is real is almost nonexistent, similar to how you probably feel that it is nonexistent that this art lady may like you.  

Tbh the lack of trust is a lot more validated in my circumstance bc I didn't meet her on a dating site, (which already implies interest and attraction) and we haven't been on dates, (which greatly implies much more interest.) I need you to understand how big of a difference that is. I have no trust that this is anything, bc literally nothing has given me that indication. You're hesitant to trust your situation despite actual, concrete proof of interest, while I have none of that....these situations aren't the same. You're essentially asking me to put myself out there and "give it a shot" when I don't have any similar goodwill you have from this woman, in terms of unambiguous interest.

Quote

 But I can assure you, if it can happen to me, it can happen to you… 🙂

I'm afraid that's not how it works...

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

and probably similar to you, I am still walking around on eggshells thinking that the floor is gonna fall out from underneath me at any moment. That in itself sucks.  My therapist just suggested, as many here have also, that it’s a self fulfilling prophecy… I expect it, therefore I subconsciously sabotage.  I’m not sure that I deliberately sabotage, I just expect bad things to happen. I don’t think there’s any deliberate intention for either you or I to sabotage, but I think we do because we don’t believe that there is any alternative.  If it’s not self sabotage, at least it’s not taking the steps forward to pursue something that could make us happy.

Exactly. I don't sabotage anything, I just anticipate they'll go a certain way based on past experiences. And based on past experiences I have no real, legitimate reason to believe this woman has a remote vested interest. I'm not going to be mean to her, or distant or ghost...I'm not sabotaging anything.

I just know the moment I try to take a chance and determine legitimate interest, I'll be humbled, and I'll just prove myself right again, bc deep down you know when someone is interested. And they let you know. It's a lot easier to take steps to pursue someone when you're given signs to pursue. Like someone liking your profile and going on dates with you. Again, when you haven't gotten any of that, it's a high ask...

 

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

there are many on here that believe that you and I should probably not be dating secure confident women, because we lack the skills of confidence to be able to sustain a relationship without constantly looking for validation, or reasons that it’s going to implode. That is really hard on a partner, I think, and I feel it happening in my own situation constantly. But this lady hasn’t shown she’s going anywhere. Not yet. That is so hugely anxiety provoking.

Well tbh I shouldn't and don't really want to. I'm far too anxious and would likely never believe she was actually interested and would be counting down until I was replaced or she just bailed. I don't want a woman with too much confidence bc that means she has high standards I can't meet and tons of options, and most will be far better than me. The ideal situation would be for this woman to have a less established, maybe insecure friend with much less going for her that I could meet, as we'd would be in a similar lane. I'd feel more comfortable taking a risk and reaching out to someone like that.

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

but as my own personal therapist just said… We have to get out of our own head and enjoy the moments that are right in front of us. Similar to my situation, you have a lady that might just like you. You don’t know yet.  There is no way to yet know.  She may be feeling awkward about your exchanges, as well, and maybe isn’t completely sure what your interest is. You don’t know yet.

But it's not similar to your situation. I don't even know if she finds me remotely attractive, let alone likable or interesting. Again, literally everything she's done could just be interpreted as being friendly to the guy who volunteers for her. There's no real reason to think she may like me tbh. I have absolutely nothing to go on.

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

but there’s no good reason not to find out. I like the ideas of the others… Give her a call or a text and invite her out to something that you think she might like. She’ll either take it or leave it, or she’ll offer something else in return.  Sometimes, getting to know someone is a long journey, with lots of twists, and hills and valleys. She may not even know what she wants yet. That doesn’t mean there couldn’t be a future.

I reached out last with the film recommendation text that barely got a response. I'm not reaching out again, let alone inviting her to something again, just to be "rescheduled"...again. It's her turn.

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

and like I have said in my other thread, the stakes feel so incredibly high, likely for you as well, since we don’t ever have these kinds of opportunities, so the thought of them slipping through our hands is hugely anxiety provoking. I hear you. But in someways, it’s probably better than how pathetic we will feel if we do what we’ve done most of our life, and that is sit on the sidelines and wish that something good might come to us.

Yep, if I had real options and opportunities I wouldn't be dwelling on this likely big heap of nothing, so much. It's all about an abundance mentality. If you don't have that, every single opportunity seems like life or death bc you have no idea when/if you'll get another again, so in your head, it becomes the paramount, instance of great magnitude, when it should be just another normal, often occurrence. THAT'S what people who have tons of options and can get dates will never understand. If I could actually get dates and meet women I likely wouldn't even be second-guessing this as...anything beyond a nice person being nice.

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

well, in my case, something great has come, and I can only hope not to screw it up… I have an opportunity in front of me. You should go for it and see if it’s an opportunity that you have in front of you, as well. The goodness that you have inside of you is what should propel you to move forward and offer that goodness to this lady. You owe it to yourself, and you may even owe it to her to give her an opportunity to get to know you. She clearly wants that. Clearly. 

as my therapist would say… Don’t think. Do. 🙂

Well yes...all you really have to do is not screw it up. Try not to. BUT that's not the same as just hoping something is there with someone, who has given no real indicators it is, and then having to create something from that. Again, these two circumstances aren't at ALL similar. It's an opportunity for a friendship maybe, not for a partner. Not for someone that likes me and is giving me a shot. A friend is great, I'm not minimizing friendship, but you can't compare the opportunity for a mate to the chance for a friend. For someone in my shoes, those are lightyears apart.