My ex wants to meet for coffee/drinks, should I ask for her motivations?

[SherrySher]

Okay...3 months.

 

Well, I can't see someone changing in 3 months. You mentioned that you told her about the immaturity and how it was a problem, over and over and she refused to listen or change.

 

You ended it due to hitting a brick wall.

 

Unfortunately, I think you are both in that place where you miss each other but you want her to be something she isn't. You want to hold onto the hope that she now all of a sudden is this mature, grown woman that you had hoped she would be all along.

 

No doubt she has had some growth, but not to the degree you're talking about. That would take years.

 

Your age difference is showing and it's not going to be a quick fix. I know you want her to be the woman you need but she just isn't and forcing and hoping and praying, won't make it so.

 

I think you need to come to terms with it being over. You both tried. It failed.

In some ways you were compatible but in the most important ways, you were not.

[Wiseman2]

If you need her to change for you whether you want to refer to that as "immaturity" or whatever, then you are still incompatible, not accepting of her and in for further disappointment. She is who she is. You've had years to know that.

 

You can't change someone's personality simply by breaking up with them and expect them to have an epiphany that miraculously, now checks all your boxes (minus what you don't like of course). Sorry but that is an awful lot of wishful thinking and compartmentalizing...

I ask myself if I would want to be with her minus the immaturity the answer is a resounding "yes."

[Depressed]

OP - does she want to to get back together, and more importantly do you?

[psycho magnet]

I am open to getting back together and it seems that she is too, perhaps.

 

Wiseman and Sherry you may be right, but I am not actually thinking that she has changed THAT much. It's more that I think maybe she has changed in some small, important ways.

 

One example of her immaturity was when we lived together. Not only was I paying for nearly everything, but I was doing the cleaning--she maybe did the dishes once or twice. When I talked with her about doing her share of the work once and asked her to do the dishes that night, she started a huge pointless argument claiming that we had different ideas of "responsibility." In other words, she threw a little tantrum to get out of taking responsibility.

 

But then I always noticed that when we were at her mom's, she WOULD clean. She'd even say things like, "I have to get these dishes done before my mom gets home or she'll be upset."

 

When I asked her why she can't be like that with me (that is, considerate of my needs), she said she's more comfortable with me and more afraid of her mom.

 

So that's an example of her immaturity. But it also shows that is capable of being responsible if she wants to (or is incentivized to).

 

This breakup is the only time I've really, truly denied her. I made threats before, but she learned that I would always be there. I have made it abundantly clear to her this time that I can be perfectly fine without her, in word and action. We both know it. That's a huge change.

 

Maybe she has realized that the basic level of respect I was asking for isn't that hard to give? And that she can do it if she really wants to? Maybe she has realized that my attention is worth these small changes that she already does with her mom and other relatives anyway. Maybe she realizes that she was taking me for granted a bit.

 

This wouldn't constitute a huge personality change necessarily, just a bit of "growing up."

[SherrySher]

Well, if you feel that she has changed enough that it will now be worth your while, then it's completely up to you.

I would not rush it though.

If you do decide to see her, sit down and talk about things, (more than once) tell her exactly what you need and refuse to put up with. Make sure she knows so that you both are on the same page.

Don't waste each other's time.

 

And definitely don't break her heart. If you consider going back to her, it would have to be under a premise of a serious relationship. You couldn't go back on a whim and then walk back out at the first sign of trouble.

You would both have to commit to making things work, best you can, the second time around.

 

It's a lot to consider and not something that you should decide lightly.

[psycho magnet]

Yes you're absolutely right. I'm thinking of starting with something like, "I truly appreciate you apologizing for the immaturity, and I truly forgive you for all of it during our relationship. But I want to make it clear up front that whatever sort of relationship we have going forward, of any type, I will no longer tolerate it."

 

I don't want to make it sound like a "my way or the high way" kind of thing. I just want it to be what it is: the truth. I can't handle the immaturity and will remove myself from situations where it persists.

 

I'll lay out all my needs clearly. And she can lay out hers. And if we're not on the same page by the end of the conversation, then that's that.

 

And I promise that I will commit if it seems right and she commits too. I'm good--probably too good sometimes--at committing.

 

Thanks for your help!

[Wiseman2]

She is who she is. It's not "immaturity" it's her basic personality. Also she's leaving, it's over so why bother with a my way or the highway speech since she's already on the highway out of this, emotionally, physically and geographically?

she's actually leaving the entire area in a few months, so it would have to be temporary/casual if anything happened.

[boltnrun]

Seems like you two have a "Daddy/daughter" dynamic. Not surprising given the age difference. She acts up, you lay down the law, she throws a tantrum, you "ground" her, she acts chastened, you graciously agree to remove the "grounding" if she promises to be good, she promises to be good, and you two go back to your regular dynamic.

 

Do you like to take the lead in your relationships generally? I mean, if this is what the two of you are into it will probably work, at least for a while. Until she "grows up" and wants to be an adult or you get tired of being "Daddy".

[figureitout23]

Seems like you two have a "Daddy/daughter" dynamic. Not surprising given the age difference. She acts up, you lay down the law, she throws a tantrum, you "ground" her, she acts chastened, you graciously agree to remove the "grounding" if she promises to be good, she promises to be good, and you two go back to your regular dynamic.

 

Do you like to take the lead in your relationships generally? I mean, if this is what the two of you are into it will probably work, at least for a while. Until she "grows up" and wants to be an adult or you get tired of being "Daddy".

 

I got this vibe too.

 

I dont know, I just think your insistence all you wanted to do was f*** and then you want reconciliation shows you arent sure what youre doing. Add to it the fact that you want to plow an emotionally vulnerable woman you had a relationship for years with is just skevy...I hope that was your ego talking cause if you were serious, you have a lot of growing up to do. Your screen name isnt helping my impression either, nor is your posting history, its really coming off that you enjoy placing blame instead of looking within.

 

This sounds like a mutually dysfunctional situation.

 

People have to change for themselves, not their partners.

 

Im not saying you shouldnt have boundaries you should, but your boundaries are being broken and instead of walking away it looks like you used breaking up as a bargaining chip. Thats SO not healthy.

 

You two do need to communicate, but neither one of you has the high ground right now. Shes not your child shes a partner, and if you cant interact with her without punishing her, this is something that should stay buried.

 

ETA: Nevermind, I actually read past posts, this needs to be over, this relationship is SUPER unhealthy and you really need to explore your control habits

 

Now let me explain some background here. One of the problems in our relationship was that I am older. I have a lot of experience. I took her virginity. I’ve had nearly 15 sexual partners. My history caused us many problems. She often couldn’t handle that she had no sexual comparison to anyone but me.

 

Despite my initial reaction, after I really thought about it, I realized that I was not mad that she slept with another guy. I was mad that she seemed to have affection for the guy (or so I thought at first). I have had impersonal sex before, and I know it can be meaningless, beyond meaningless even. But when you dethrone me as your number one in a relationship, then that’s the ing end.

 

So what bothered me is that I thought she was into this guy. So finally I sent her an email that said basically the following. “The only condition under which we will even talk is that you tell me I am your number one, that you love me truly and wholeheartedly. You will delete this guy’s number from your phone, but first you will send him a text saying that you realized you love your boyfriend and that you will no longer be communicating with him. If you do this, and pledge yourself to me, then maybe, I will consider talking to you.”

[psycho magnet]

All of you are right: it's a pattern. But you're getting the wrong impression of the "plow" thing, and that quote is a bit out of context. She did not sleep with another guy while we were together, for example. That wasn't really about control but about boundaries and my needs as her significant other.

 

I am not denying my role in everything so I'm not sure how I'm failing to take blame. In fact, part of the reason I ended it was to stop the pattern.

 

I didn't use breaking up as a bargaining chip, it came naturally based on feeling that I didn't want to be in the situation any longer. I never expected us to get back together. I genuinely tried to end it--for all the reasons you're all pointing to about the unhealthiness of it all.

 

But then, she wanted to talk, which is why I started this thread... And we did end up meeting the other day. First of all, she's not leaving for nearly a year (turns out I got the dates wrong) and after that will be free in summers and winters. So if we really wanted to do long distance, we could.

 

She was extremely apologetic, she cried in my arms telling me how sorry she was for the immaturity. She told me she was taking me for granted and wished she hadn't. (To be clear, she never acted like this during our relationship. If she ever apologized during our relationship, it was brief and rarely sincere.) I told her I forgave her for all of the immaturity in the relationship, but that it would have to end if we were going to continue to be in each other's lives in any way--as friends or as partners. She of course said yes, yes, yes.

 

So I really believed her. After all, if we can grow together and turn that unhealthy pattern into a better one, then why not? As long as we're happy with it, then so be it, right?

 

And here's the thing: I've been planning to talk with her in more depth very soon before it gets any further about what we're really doing here again, and tonight she reminded me of the truth of what you said figureitout. People have to change for themselves. We were talking on the phone tonight and all of a sudden she starts criticizing me for the way I broke up with her. I pointed out that both of our past behavior could be criticized so why not move on? But even though we were actually having some good conversation, she kept lobbing in minor criticisms of past behavior to the point that I took the bait and soon we were in a good old fashioned argument. The pattern.

 

I found myself saying things about "respect," and what bothered me most is what has always bothered me: she seemed more concerned with whether she had gone down her checklist of what counts as respectful behavior in her eyes than with my well being. It seems that even her uncharacteristic apology was an act of sorts.

 

We somewhat resolved the argument, and then later she texted me with "Sorry for being such a disappointment to you." And then, "I just want to be loved."

 

Man... I don't think I want to be in this anymore. For a second there was a glimmer of hope... This is really hard, because she is capable of being so mature most of the time, and we are capable of having amazing, truly engaging conversations most of the time. But that's obviously not enough.

 

Any advice at this point?

[SherrySher]

We somewhat resolved the argument, and then later she texted me with "Sorry for being such a disappointment to you." And then, "I just want to be loved."

 

 

Oh I hate that! Passive aggressive bs and trying to play victim. It really burns me!!

 

Psycho, can I call you psycho? Haha...erm..oh right, you tried, you gave it a second chance. You heard her out and told her what needed to change.

But she is going right back to the behaviors that drove you away.

 

If she is ever going to change, she is going to need a long time to do that, possibly years.

I can't see it working. You just are in two different mindsets and it will turn out to be you being disappointed and trying to force her to be what she just isn't.

 

Her immaturity is glaringly obvious and unfortunately, that's not something that can be resolved with a quick fix band aid, no matter how much you care about her.

[katrina1980]

I'm not sure why you continue to blame her for her "immaturity." Referencing your example that she refused to help out around the house, her tantrums, while she had no problem helping when at her mom's.

 

She respects her mom, she does not respect you. Or at least did not when you were together.

 

We teach people how to treat us, and you ultimately taught her, by your actions, attitude, that her laziness and disrespect was acceptable.

 

You actually fostered the very behavior and disrespect you are complaining about!

 

The fact she helped and cleaned up while at her mom's suggests she knows how to behave like a grownup, she just chose not to with you.

 

I also don't agree this is just her personality, with a different man she might be completely different because she respects him. Just like she respects her mom, so she knew what she was doing when with you and it was a conscious choice.

 

So you finally left, good for you! After five years of disrespect you finally grew a backbone, found your balls and left.

 

Often times it takes leaving the relationship for their partner to "get it."

 

But still wondering why this bs went on for five years, why you allowed this extremely unhealthy dynamic.

 

Who the hell knows what she's actually thinking, whether or not she wants to reconcile.

 

I don't even think it's a matter of her "changing," it's more about whether she now respects you or not.

 

She may think she does, because she misses five years of having someone there, which is common when a long term relationship ends. But regardless, I see her behavior now as quite manipulative.

 

Being who you are, a man who obviously doesn't mind 100% providing for your gf, financially, picking up her slack, etc., if you do get back, it's only a matter of time before the old dynamic returns and you're back to dealing with the same bs.

[Wiseman2]

Yes, noticed this as well. You see, as long as you think she can "grow up", it gives you false hope. Her personality is what it is and pretty well formed by now.

I'm not sure why you continue to blame her for her "immaturity."

[katrina1980]

I don't even think it's about her "personality" per se Wise, with another man whom she respects, her behavior (personality) might be completely different.

 

It was just their particular dynamic. Which again he fostered by virtue of him choosing to remain and tolerate her laziness, tantrums and overall disrespect for five years.

 

We teach people how to treat us.

 

JMO.

[SherrySher]

Parent-child dynamic? She's naughty, he scolds, she resents and behaves for a bit, then the cycle repeats.

[katrina1980]

Again jmo but to the OP, sounds like you were the quintessential "white knight."

 

Not judging but when you go this route, choosing to do essentially everything -- supporting her financially, doing all the chores, picking up her slack, allowing her to manipulate you via her tantrums, etc -- disrespect is what you should expect in return.

 

No doubt there were good times too which kept you there (fab sex?), but the level of disrespect she displayed was so blatant I don't get why you are even considering getting back together.

 

Sorry. :(

[katrina1980]

Parent-child dynamic? She's naughty, he scolds, she resents and behaves for a bit, then the cycle repeats.

 

Yup, you got it, Sherry!

 

But not even a healthy parent-child dynamic.

 

My parents never tolerated that behavior from me, I mean throwing tantrums to get out of helping around the house?

 

No no no, this would never be tolerated!!

 

Not in our household, there were consequences for such disrespect.

 

Much more than being scolded.

 

Nothing physical, but our parents taught us to respect, which we did, just like OP's ex respects her mom.

[bluecastle]

Simple advice: Be done. Like, for real.

 

Why?

 

Well, so you can grow and really grown up, instead of obsessing over her growth, instead of using her "immaturity" as a false barometer of your own depth and maturity. Not to be harsh, but I think you actually find a kind of comfort in her immaturity, because it allows you to look in the mirror and see a paragon of adulthood rather than, you know, a guy in his late 30s who (a) invested a lot of years in a much younger woman who failed to evolve into his idealized version of her and (b) started this very thread with the "mature" thought of how to turn a key exchange into a quick romp with his ex without an once of real talk or even small talk.

 

That's kind of the subtext to this thread, and it's often the subtext of relationships with this sort of age gap. The daddy/daughter and parent/teacher stuff mentioned above.

 

Been there, in ways. I'm your age, my ex gf is her age, and I spent a lot of time inside the relationship bemoaning her immaturity, kind of half-consciously thinking that things would get "good" and "real" once she, you know, grew up just a little bit more.

 

Thing is—and this wasn't super fun to face—I had to own how ridiculous this was on my part. If I really wanted equality, after all, I would have gotten out after a sizzling month or three. What allowed it to go on for three years was, well, my own lack of maturity. I liked being in the driver's seat because, like you, I've got some control issues. Allowed me to feel wise and virile instead of, you know, vulnerable and in need of some growing up.

 

Just beneath your plaintive tone of confusion and quasi-respect there is some serious condescension going on here, and in just about every post about this woman. You don't view this woman as being on your level, you don't really respect her, and I don't think you ever have. And she, no doubt, knows this. And that, no doubt, leaves her feeling minimized and demeaned. Maybe not in the beginning, no, but once things settled in she didn't like being daughter to daddy, student to teacher.

 

Well, sometimes she did, when it worked. But often she didn't because people don't like to feel small. And so she rebelled. By, say, not doing dishes.

 

Which is very lame, on many levels. Which is very immature, on both your parts. Which lead to a deeply dysfunctional dynamic that you co-created in which things only "worked" so long as the things that didn't work kept working. So long as neither of you really grew up.

 

She was, after all, the young virgin when you met. Bet that was pretty fun, for a bit, for both of you. Bet you felt very studly and wise, as you taught her x and y, as you nurtured her into the budding law student she is today. Bet she felt like she was mainlining adulthood.

 

All the while, however, there was the snag: her refusal to fully blossom into the woman in your imagination, which first surfaced in her sudden desire for other men, experiences outside of you, lessons you could not teach. The thing you had total control over proved itself to be a little wild, a little feral, as time passed.

 

What keeps you hooked, I suspect, is the sense that she might just become that woman you worked so hard to corral her into—but with someone else. That you don't get the full reward of your efforts.

 

But it was your efforts, throughout, that were the reward. A too-limited, not-healthy reward. With an actual child, fine. With a partner, not so fine.

 

So, yeah, enough. You've both exhausted the other, squeezed all the juice there was to squeeze. Let her live and grow, however she needs to, and focus now on doing some living and growing of your own so you can be less controlling and more vulnerable with the next relationship.

[bluecastle]

But not even a healthy parent-child dynamic.

 

And yet a very common one.

 

Some parents don't want their children to, you know, grow up. Because if their child remains a child (tantrums and all) the parent continues to feel powerful, needed.

 

And that, per my missive above, is what's going on here.

 

If this young woman suddenly "matured" OP would lose the sense of power and control that he's had throughout this relationship.

 

Which, like the straw-figure parents described above, is a symptom of his immaturity.