Law School - Is it worth it?

[moodindigo91]

Hi all,

 

Here's some pondering about the next step to take in my career, looking for some advice. I graduated from undergraduate school cum laude in 2013 and promptly moved across the country to one of the most expensive cities in the US. Since being here, I've done everything possible to be able to live here comfortably and I'm pretty proud of the fact that I "made it", as in I'm a 25-year-old woman with a good job, benefits, and enough money to live comfortably in a city where everything is inflated in price, and state income tax depletes your paycheck regularly.

 

That being said, I'm still itching for something better, something bigger. I've always wanted to make a difference in the world in some way. I consider myself a humanist above all. Right now, I'm lucky to be in the position I am today. I landed a job back in March 2016 working for two companies. The back story is as follows: the main company is a land use firm and the Principal of this company is a 61-year-old trained biologist, alumni of Notre Dame. The work done at this firm is very complicated and it takes a long time to complete projects. His expertise in biology is sought after by private developers, government agencies, etc... as it is paired with his knowledge of laws and regulations regarding land use in California. For 10 years, my other boss worked under him and eventually became the Vice President of the land use firm until he decided to break off and start his own law firm. They are still very close friends, and share the office space still. The law firm specializes in surrogacy law, we typically represent the intended parents. This firm has brought in around $1 million in profit this year and will only continue to grow. My other boss is the Principal and sole practitioner of the firm as of now (until our colleague passes his BAR exam).

 

I work for both companies. For the land use firm, I am a project associate and assistant to the owner. When I first started working here, I took over the billing and invoicing, and I learned all of the administrative assisting duties pertinent to this role. Recently, he has started me on several projects doing billable work here and there. Now, we are taking on clients to redevelop their property, and I will be spearheading this project. At the law firm, I am the legal assistant. I do various tasks, including preparing court filings and dealing with clients. I love both jobs, however, as I am in a position of growth in both positions (as they intended for me to be), I'm starting to think more and more about what my future plans should be. Both bosses have expressed that they'd like me to start doing more and moving up, even possibly taking over the land use firm in the future.

 

That being said, I'm not sure if that is something I want to do. I have always wanted to study law, probably since I was in high school but I never thought I could do it. After that, it just became a matter of the student loan burden I'd acquire after becoming a law student. At this point, with my current job offering great prospects and because I enjoy being financially stable, I'm not keen on quitting and becoming a full-time law student. My new idea is to attend part time. The school here that offers a part-time law program is the same school my boss graduated from, as well as the senior project manager at the land use firm and the new colleague at the law firm who just took his BAR exam. I feel confident that with my connections, grades, and with lots of studying for the LSAT that I can get in. I'm also confident that I can juggle school and work and am fully aware of the time commitment I'd have to make (i.e., losing a lot of time for socializing, etc). Since my boss at the land use firm tends to hire lawyers for his senior positions, I also feel confident that a law degree can only help me regardless of which route I decide to take (take over land use firm, become an associate for the law firm, or possibly go off on my own and do something else entirely).

 

My biggest concern is the debt. What I want to know is if people who have gone to law school found it worth it and if people who wanted to go but didn't found it to be too much of a burden financially. I already have loans from undergraduate school, but a very small amount and I pay them regularly. I plan to continue paying them regularly while in law school and have these paid off either before I graduate from law school or around the time I graduate from law school. Any insights about law school, funding, time management, studying, etc is also helpful.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Wiseman2]

Ask about tuition assistance at work. Also about tax deductible tuition. If you can pay it as you go a law degree is quite useful.

Both bosses have expressed that they'd like me to start doing more and moving up, even possibly taking over the land use firm in the future. My biggest concern is the debt.

[BlarneyStone]

You're 25 and you have two good paying jobs where you can live comfortably, and it's something you enjoy doing. In my opinion, you're in a great position to accumulate savings for retirement and establish emergency funds.

 

If it was me, I'd focus on paying off the undergrad debt and any other debt you may have hanging around. Accumulate for a few years until you'd feel comfortable enough that if, for some unknown reason, you lose your job you could live off your savings for at least 12 months. That way if you do decide to pursue the law degree you'd have more of a cushion, with no ulterior debts.

 

Stability is something you should never take for granted. Especially when you have loans to pay, and those loans can increase in time (car, mortgage, you name it, these things tend to pop up before 30).

[mustlovedogs]

I would research law degrees. From what I understand, it is the most over saturated advanced degree market out there.

 

Most of my friends who didn't graduate from prestigious law schools waited at least 6 months post graduation to find jobs.

 

And prestigious schools are very expensive.

 

For the record, I'm taking on $20k in student loan debt (not much! Compared to many programs) and interest accrues at $3 something a DAY.

[thejigsup]

Law school is only worth it if your heart is set on being an attorney. I worked for several years in the legal field and I will tell you this, many lawyers said the exact, same thing: Only go to law school if you will graduate before the age of thirty. Most law firms are VERY hesitant to hire attorneys fresh out of law school who are older than that.

[moodindigo91]

I would research law degrees. From what I understand, it is the most over saturated advanced degree market out there.

 

Most of my friends who didn't graduate from prestigious law schools waited at least 6 months post graduation to find jobs.

 

And prestigious schools are very expensive.

 

For the record, I'm taking on $20k in student loan debt (not much! Compared to many programs) and interest accrues at $3 something a DAY.

 

As a law student or other graduate program?

 

I have done research and it seems to be a hit or miss. I've read that unless you go to a prestigious school, you will not obtain a good job. I've read also that graduates get jobs at the big firms and slave away working 80 hours a week to pay off the debt. I've also read success stories, people who loved law school and who have seen it pay off. My boss, for instance, who firm takes in $1M+ a year. I'm pretty torn, and I'm terrified of debt.

[mustlovedogs]

No, I'm not doing law.

 

But I've heard the job market for lawyers is so bad that they're being offered things like 50k a year. That won't pay off college debt easily.

[BlarneyStone]

I would research law degrees. From what I understand, it is the most over saturated advanced degree market out there.

 

Most of my friends who didn't graduate from prestigious law schools waited at least 6 months post graduation to find jobs.

 

And prestigious schools are very expensive.

 

For the record, I'm taking on $20k in student loan debt (not much! Compared to many programs) and interest accrues at $3 something a DAY.

 

And in what year was that where they waited 6 months? Nowadays you are lucky to find a job six months out of school with no experience in any field. It took me nearly ten months. And the job itself isn't even that great, but it's a foot in the door.

[mustlovedogs]

And in what year was that where they waited 6 months? Nowadays you are lucky to find a job six months out of school with no experience in any field. It took me nearly ten months. And the job itself isn't even that great, but it's a foot in the door.

 

 

That's basically what I was saying? I said they waited at least 6 months...

[BlarneyStone]

In what year, approximately?

[mustlovedogs]

They graduated in May 2015. regardless, our posts agree.

[BlarneyStone]

They graduated in May 2015. regardless, our posts agree.

 

I am agreeing with you. I was just getting an idea of when they graduated because the market has inflated drastically in the last four years or so. Getting a job six months after graduation is extremely fortunate unless they had a killer network.

[mustlovedogs]

A lot of them "settled" for jobs. Scummy ambulance chasers, clerical work, paralegal work even - not necessarily as attorneys.

 

OP - if you have a specific law dream, and specific vision, I say chase it. But if law is just a "good thing to do", I would avoid it.

[ProtestTheHero]

I tell most people considering law school to consider other options for this reason -- too many piranha in the water and not enough fish. If you were accepted into Yale/Harvard/Stanford then my opinion changes, but the debt is absurd unless you can conceivably get into big law for a few years.

 

Ideally, you want your first year salary to exceed your debt. If you don't think it will then I'd pass. It's hard to change the world for the better when you're living out of your car paying 160k debt on a 50k salary.

 

All the big law associates I know are doing fine -- they're overworked, but they're financially fine. All the guys I know who were CPA's specializing in tax and got a JD to further aid clients in tax-related issues are fine. All the people I know who took out 6 figure debt to graduate from a non-top 10 law school are making less than my accountant friends who don't even have graduate degrees.

[ProtestTheHero]

No, I'm not doing law.

 

But I've heard the job market for lawyers is so bad that they're being offered things like 50k a year. That won't pay off college debt easily.

 

To add on -- this is the most common salary range from my friends who graduated from good state schools outside of the top 5-10% of their class, so this is the most statistically probable scenario.

 

In comparison, PWC/Deloitte/EY/KPMG (Big 4 accounting firms) would pay a CPA-eligible, 22 year old college grad without a masters a salary that equals or beats that in 95% of cities.

 

Don't be an attorney for the money.

[mustlovedogs]

And, to other readers, I wasn't knocking a 50k salary - BUT it loses value when you're 100k in debt, selling yourself to a law firm.

[BlarneyStone]

And, to other readers, I wasn't knocking a 50k salary - BUT it loses value when you're 100k in debt, selling yourself to a law firm.

 

Exactly. That's why it's important to invest/save and eliminate debt in your 20s. If you're 25 and making roughly $50k in salary, regardless of your outstanding loans, I'd say you're ahead of the game.

[Jibralta]

In comparison, PWC/Deloitte/EY/KPMG (Big 4 accounting firms) would pay a CPA-eligible, 22 year old college grad without a masters a salary that equals or beats that in 95% of cities.

 

Yeah, CPA is a smart choice.

[moodindigo91]

I'm 25 and making a little over $40K a year. So I'm thinking if I get a law degree from my state school and take on the debt my prospects at my current job(s) could be to take over the land use company very far in the future or become an associate attorney (still pending conversations with my bosses) for the law firm. But it sounds like mostly, if I can't get a high paying job right off the bat, it's really not worth it at all?

[moodindigo91]

I should also mention that I am currently a Notary Public and loan signing agent. I plan to expand my business to partner with law firms and various other organizations, which would only help the networking in the legal field.

[Ms Darcy]

I tell most people considering law school to consider other options for this reason -- too many piranha in the water and not enough fish. If you were accepted into Yale/Harvard/Stanford then my opinion changes, but the debt is absurd unless you can conceivably get into big law for a few years.

 

Ideally, you want your first year salary to exceed your debt. If you don't think it will then I'd pass. It's hard to change the world for the better when you're living out of your car paying 160k debt on a 50k salary.

 

All the big law associates I know are doing fine -- they're overworked, but they're financially fine. All the guys I know who were CPA's specializing in tax and got a JD to further aid clients in tax-related issues are fine. All the people I know who took out 6 figure debt to graduate from a non-top 10 law school are making less than my accountant friends who don't even have graduate degrees.

 

I generally tend to agree with this. If you go to a top school and/or graduate near the top of your class at another school, AND get a job that keeps pace with your student loan debt, then it's worth it. I have a friend who went to a great law school, had about $100,000 in debt. He got hired as an associate at a law firm starting at $150,000. I think he's making about $250,000 now. But he loves the law and he's definitely constantly working (and looking to change jobs).

 

The debt isn't a concern if you are going to have a high paying job. In that case, I would advise going as your career and financial stability would be greatly enhanced in the long run.

 

If you are not going to be making a six figure salary, then the debt is an issue.

 

But don't avoid going to law school because of mediocrity. (I'm stable now. I have a good job. I can be fine where I am. Keep steady, don't grow. Don't risk debt.) If it allows you to grow, and you realistically think you can perform very well, then go for it.

 

Also remember there is good debt and bad debt. Educational debt which will enable you to command a higher salary is good debt.

[BeeCee]

I am an attorney. I obtained my law degree outside of the US but was recruited by a white shoe firm in NYC, passed the NY bar exam, and worked in NYC for several years. Life was financially viable for me and my colleagues, as all the large NY law firms share a lockstep salary scale starting at around $175K (base salary) for first year graduates. And, my firm paid for me to take the bar exam. However, these types of jobs are hotly contested and our experience was very much in the minority. Most law graduates have to sponsor their own bar exam and then struggle to find a well paying position.

 

Bear in mind these firms are huge elitists - they would rather go to the expense and trouble of recruiting overseas graduates (like myself) than dip down to "second tier" law school graduates.

 

I am not trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, but to put the apparently high flying degree into perspective. I think your position is slightly different from that of a regular graduate though. You already have some industry experience and connections, so you may well be able to carve out a route off the beaten track. However, I do strongly agree with the others - only pursue this route if you actually want/ need to be an attorney, rather than just to add another string to your bow.

[Snny]

Only go to law school if you will graduate before the age of thirty. Most law firms are VERY hesitant to hire attorneys fresh out of law school who are older than that.

Grad school is the same way UNLESS you are already working in the field. If you are going back for your education, do it NOW. Don't wait until your undergrad loan is paid off. If anything you can probably get it deferred while you are in school (or continue to pay them while working).

 

And in what year was that where they waited 6 months? Nowadays you are lucky to find a job six months out of school with no experience in any field.

Both my sister (undergrad) and I (maters) landed jobs that paid over 50K before we graduated. She's in national politics while I'm in the mental health sector. Being in a highly needed field AND internships make a significant difference. I was given three contracts at a job fair 6 months before graduating.

 

Definitely RESEARCH the job market first before enrolling. You have to treat higher education as an investment. If you won't gain from the investment, rethink your career path.