Pressures of being a man

[corvidae]

As anyone who's read any of my posts will know, I don't have much luck with women. Well, to be fair I don't have ANY luck with women. I was thinking today that perhaps part of my lack of self-confidence stems not just from how I feel about my physical appearance, but also from my social status. To give quite a nice example, a friend of mine suggested I go speed dating. I was instantly against the idea because the whole point of the thing is that you sit down with a stranger and give them a 'summary' of you, and I just don't feel like I've achieved enough. I'd have to tell everyone that I just do PhD, and no I'm not wealthy, and no I don't have a car, and no I don't own a house, I rent etc... I simply can't imagine anyone hearing me summarised like that and being interested. I explained this to my friend, and she agreed that my social situation would put women off.

 

Recently I've been offered a position for a very good job in the financial sector, starting next year. The pay is good and the career prospects are excellent, and now I feel like I could be more confident 'offering' myself to people...though I still refuse to approach women. It's funny, but I never really realised that I felt such a social pressure until recently. I think, and feel free to argue with me, that this is a pressure felt only by men, as I don't think there are many men who really care how financially or socially successful a woman is.

 

Interestingly, chimpanzees of low social rank will typically give birth to female offspring, while alpha chimpanzees will give birth to males. This is because a female of low status can breed with a male of high status and thus become high status herself, but this does not work the other way round. It's funny how, despite all our intellect, we are still so governed by these primitive drives.

[DN]

Surely 'Dr. Corvidae' will bestow a certain status?

[DN]

It did wonders for "Dr. Kissinger"!!

[annie24]

why are you so down on yourself? If that photo is really you, you're pretty cute! Didn't you date girls while in grad school? I'm a PhD student right now also, I really don't care what income a guy makes, so long as he is making an honest living. A man with an advanced degree is a plus to me (PhD, MD, JD, MBA) because I'd like someone with an equal educational level. Start approaching girls! You sound like the "total package" to me! Good luck!

[joe45]

are u age 26? hey when u finsih ur schooling of being a doc i think u will be rich. doc make $$$. u never had a gf or dated before? if so u are just like me.

i do talk to girls do u talk to girls but they are just aquintances and not very friends-just small talk and stuff.

[Day_Walker]

Well often what it can take is an ability to sell yourself. Now there are people who for whatever reason dont like to talk about themselves. This can make things more difficult. You are an intelligent person and getting your PhD, im sure that you can find plenty of things to talk about. The key is that you have to confident enough to talk about them. I dont know if this is an issue for you but inevitably you have to learn that rejection isnt anything that cant be delt with. You need to put yourself out there and learn how to have that personal interaction with people.

[FuriousSam]

Your mindset about women is wrong. Look at it this way: If a woman is only after your money and not you, why would you want her? Money can do a lot for you, but it is not everything. Focus on your good points and change your attitude towards yourself (Also work on your bad points if you feel that you need to change something), then the chicks will come.

[corvidae]

Well, technically I'll be Dr. X, but I'm moving into finance so I probably won't use the title as it'll just confuse people. I suppose I will be sort of 'rich' in a few years if all goes well, but I'm not really money orientated...I mean, I care much more about being happy and a decent person.

 

To answer Annie24, it's nice of you to say that, but no, I've never dated. Long story short, no-one's ever been interested. Oh and yes, that is my pic.

[corvidae]

I think we're moving off the point. I really want to know if other men feel that same kind of social pressure that I was talking about.

[annie24]

Hmm... I don't know if it's too off topic. I've had several male friends say that they feel the only way they can get a woman is if "they have muscles or they have money." Maybe for some women that's important, but I think for a lot, it's not. I know that when I finish my PhD, because of my chosen field, I will have a good sized salary. So, I'm not as concerned with finding a man who will also have a large salary - as long as he is educated, that is the most important to me. I know a lot of men that feel that they want to "hold off" on dating until they have "something to offer." But I really feel as long as he is a good man, and fun to be with, and has a job and is not living with his parents, that's good for me.

 

So yes, to answer your question. Though I am not a man, I have had several male friends complain about these pressures too.

[annie24]

the best advice i ever got from an AP biology teacher was "marry a very smart man.. because if he isn't exactly successful then, he WILL be." oh so true. if you're doing PhD then you're obviously very intelligent, and that is possibly the most important thing to me in a guy. and i second that, that if that's you in your icon, what are you worried about?! you just need to believe in yourself, no matter how cheesy that sounds. you're intelligent and you obviously care about yourself. trust me, that's more than i could ask for from most guys! which is another problem all in itself.....

 

I'm surprised that the advice your biology teacher didn't give was to study hard and become successful yourself, so you don't have to worry about who you marry.

[volution]

Traditionally, men have been thought of as the breadwinners, the defenders, the warriors, the gatherers, the fighters, the protectors. (ie: Physical, 'Earth', 'Dark').

And women, the nurturers, the healers, the comforters. (ie: Spiritual, 'Heaven', 'Light').

Althought we like to think we have evolved beyond those two most fundamental roles that have dominated humanity since time immemorial - whatwith all our ideas and ideals about 'equality', battle of the sexes etc. - in the end, the majority of humanity still acts out those roles, often unconsciously.

 

The majority of women primarily want a traditional man first, but they also want him to have feminine qualities too.

On the other hand, I don't know many men that want a woman with masculine qualities

But I do believe there are women out there that don't care about money, status etc. first, and do care about the heart and soul of a man!

They're just damn hard to find.

 

Biologicaly speaking, women are superior to men. (Men have X and Y chromosones - they Y being half an X. Women have two XX chromosones). Over time, the Y chromosone of man will deplete and in the far future, will no longer be viable, and all humans will be female!

 

I know this is getting a bit deep, and philosophical but what I'm saying is that I believe over time, humanity as a whole is heading towards the feminine, and that in the end all humans will embrace feminine qualities rather than masculine qualities. (Gentleness, calmness, tenderness etc.).

 

Getting back to the point in question - I wouldn't call it social pressure, but societal pressure - that we as males have pressure from society to fulfil it's requirements of masculinity. And that if we deviate from a typical masculine role, then we might risk being labelled 'gay', 'impotent' or 'weak'.

I'm a gentle male, and I don't want to have to turn myself into the traditional male role just so I can one day get a wife. I am who I am, and if a woman can't accept that, then I'm not the one for them.

I too like you don't own a house (I live with my relatives), I don't have that much money either, I do have a company car though, but I don't have anyone to visit!

I do feel like sometimes these factors dent my confidence, but again I say if a woman can't accept me for who I am, then to hell with them!

It's not what's in the face, in the wallet or in the brain that truly matters... but what is in the heart!

Watch Forrest Gump or again if you already have seen it!

It's a truly inspiring film - if he can get a woman, then you can and I even I can!

[annie24]

I just don't feel like I've achieved enough. I'd have to tell everyone that I just do PhD, and no I'm not wealthy, and no I don't have a car, and no I don't own a house, I rent etc... I simply can't imagine anyone hearing me summarised like that and being interested. I explained this to my friend, and she agreed that my social situation would put women off.

 

As for the speed dating thing you mentioned, I think you're being too negative in presenting yourself this way. It's a whole lot better to say that, "I just finished my PhD and I will start working in the financial sector next year. I look forward to buying a new house and car at that time." Same jist, just sounds a lot more positive.

 

Everybody knows that students are broke, especially grad students, but that is a temporary condition. It will change once they get a "real" job.

 

I think lots of girls have been interested in you, you just may not have noticed. How tall are you? Height is a big issue for me, some others too.

[Iceman26]

In my early to mid twenties, I was in the same financial position as you, and I got women all the time (before I settled down).

 

Its all about your frame of mind, and you seem to focus more on the negative aspects of your circumstances then the positive ones........you are in school to achieve something greater, its not like you are a bum that isnt doing anything, and most intelligent women will understand what you are trying to do with the PhD and they know what it takes to get that done, so they should be pretty understanding of what you are going through and if they really like you, then good things are going to happen.

 

Your not a bad looking guy,just get that chip off of your shoulder (yes, women do sense negativity and its a huge turnoff for them) and go out this weekend, have a couple of drinks by yourself and just talk to some women. Its a numbers game man, but you have to play to win.

[Caldus]

Well you know what corvidae, no matter what you do about it there will be women out there who just want your money and good looks. Do your best in this situation. That's all you can do. The best thing you can do is place yourself out there and watch out for opportunities. Yes, the women you are looking for are very rare but they do exist. Sometimes I feel the same way about women at my college. There have been so many times where I try to meet women at my college. They just seem to put up this imaginary shield in front of them. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about corvidae. Not really sure if they just think I'm another guy who wants to get into their pants or what. I'm getting off-topic so I'll stop there.

[DN]

"Biologicaly speaking, women are superior to men. (Men have X and Y chromosones - they Y being half an X. Women have two XX chromosones). Over time, the Y chromosone of man will deplete and in the far future, will no longer be viable, and all humans will be female! :

 

With resoect, that is scientifically unsound. Animals are evolving in exacty the oppsite direction.

[annie24]

"Biologicaly speaking, women are superior to men. (Men have X and Y chromosones - they Y being half an X. Women have two XX chromosones). Over time, the Y chromosone of man will deplete and in the far future, will no longer be viable, and all humans will be female! :

 

With resoect, that is scientifically unsound. Animals are evolving in exacty the oppsite direction.

 

That can be a whole topic in itself. Yes, it is true, the Y chromosome appears to be shrinking over time, but I just don't see how humans can be all female in the future. The journal Nature has a lot of articles on the subject if you want to take a look:

 

link removed

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

Human beings are not monkeys. We all have the power to veto any "primitive drives" and that is why people fall in love with people despite how irrational it might seem. There are lots of girls who fall in love with guys who are broke, and guys who fall in love with girls who are not considered attractive by most people.

 

Its important that you let any girl who you date love you who you are now, not what you might become in the future. Maybe you will be rich, maybe not. WHo knows? But let girls get to know you NOW. Open up to them and be completely honest. Date today and let girls judge you by what you are today, not what you might be tomorrow.

 

Good luck!!!!!!

[annie24]

Human beings are not monkeys. We all have the power to veto any "primitive drives" and that is why people fall in love with people despite how irrational it might seem. There are lots of girls who fall in love with guys who are broke, and guys who fall in love with girls who are not considered attractive by most people.

 

Its important that you let any girl who you date love you who you are now, not what you might become in the future. Maybe you will be rich, maybe not. WHo knows? But let girls get to know you NOW. Open up to them and be completely honest. Date today and let girls judge you by what you are today, not what you might be tomorrow.

 

Good luck!!!!!!

 

he he he... actually, we are related quite closely to monkeys. The broke man may be big and strong - the kind of man who can slay a mastadon and drag it back to the cave for the female to cook. Or, he may be exuding some pheremones that are particularly attractive to the cavegirl. But yes, I agree, human attraction is definitely a multi-layers and complicated thing.

 

A recent study reported in the Journal of Comparative Neurology found that love is chemically equivalent to obsessive compulsive disorder. Here is the link to an article in the economist about it:

 

Scientists are finding that, after all, love really is down to a chemical addiction between people

 

link removed

 

But, I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: With women's lib, and us having jobs and being financially independent, we're in a much different position than our grandmothers were. We don't have to find a man to support us. If we want children, we don't have to get married, we can just be single moms. I do agree with I love rain .... Mate selection for females is driven by many more factors than "who is big and strong and can take care of me." Now, quirky sense of humor and love of kung-fu movies can also be reasons for mate selection.

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

The important thing is to be honest. When you date girls, don't put on a show. Just show who you are and what you are interested with. Respect the girl and be gentle, but don't be afraid to be who you really other. There is nothing as bad as two people who have entered into a relationship with a misunderstanding of thier partner. I mean, if you like bowling and the girl doesn't like it, atleast be honest. With out honestly, no relationship can survive. And let girls see you as you are now, not what you might become in the future.

[annie24]

The important thing is to be honest. When you date girls, don't put on a show. Just show who you are and what you are interested with. Respect the girl and be gentle, but don't be afraid to be who you really other. There is nothing as bad as two people who have entered into a relationship with a misunderstanding of thier partner. I mean, if you like bowling and the girl doesn't like it, atleast be honest. With out honestly, no relationship can survive. And let girls see you as you are now, not what you might become in the future.

 

Very well said!

[CptKipling]

To the original poster:

 

BE clever, stop worrying so much and devaluing yourself so much. The only person devaluing you at the moment is yourself.

 

Suck it up and go out and have fun.

[al7]

I think we're moving off the point. I really want to know if other men feel that same kind of social pressure that I was talking about.

 

Yes, many men who think more in terms of logic feel enormous pressure

from women. Moreover money is very important.

But.

Just be honest with yourself, ok: the problem lies not only in terms of money. Moreover it is not about money in the first place.

Why? Cuz you first gotta make some initial contacts, and if you fail to do so, you wont proceed to the next phase where you'll be asked how much you make.

 

So, some men who thinks in terms of logic often have no idea how to communicate with women in an efficient way. Those kind of men try to be fair and think a lot. Women prefer feelings and stereotypes.

 

So the answer for you: yes, men feel the pressure.

But what troubles me you dont care about what to do...?

Seem just you want us to admit you are under pressre. Yes, you are. I am too. And we do admit. What's next?

[al7]

the best advice i ever got from an AP biology teacher was "marry a very smart man.. because if he isn't exactly successful then, he WILL be." oh so true. if you're doing PhD then you're obviously very intelligent, and that is possibly the most important thing to me in a guy. and i second that, that if that's you in your icon, what are you worried about?! you just need to believe in yourself, no matter how cheesy that sounds. you're intelligent and you obviously care about yourself. trust me, that's more than i could ask for from most guys! which is another problem all in itself.....

 

I'm surprised that the advice your biology teacher didn't give was to study hard and become successful yourself, so you don't have to worry about who you marry.

 

I cant agree: if you study hard, yes you'll make enough money not to care... but the thing is would that make you happier?

More independent - yes. More money? yes.

More choices? Definitely.

THough when it comes to mate selections you automutically raise the standards and find a good, decent man that would not only earn more than you, but also has a similar degree... well, you add some frustration here: by getting say PhD you exclude many many other men who do not have it. (I dont care I am work on PhD)

The smarted you are, the more you earn, the higher degree you have.... all that makes dating harder for women.

Not that they cant get dates, just teh opposite: but they have to be even more selective....

[weirdrabbit]

Personally as a woman, I am not interested in how much money a man makes. But I am sure there are women out there who do. But Often I think a man puts more pressure on himself in what he percieves a woman wants and also what he thinks is expected of him in society. It happens with women too, they are expected to be a wife a mother, have the perfect home life and be a career woman at the same time. If you live for other people you can never be happy. I should take my own advice, I know it is easier said than done.

Just gotta find someone who loves you for the way you are and then you can get over the feeling of always having to prove yourself bc they are proud of you the way you are.