Was this abuse?!!!!

[RainyCoast]

lord no. for the record i dated two dutchmen in my twenties and bluntness was not their thing, if anything, the typical dutch attitude (if it's fair to discuss it that way) seemed marked by respect to me.

 

i don't think there should be cultural reasons for displays of agressiveness. i live in the mediterranean and men ppl are quite hot tempered here but we're way pass the era when that was an excuse.

 

it was already suggested watching alcohol intake is a good idea. again, it does not call for grabbing a person by the head and frightening them, repeatedly.

it isn't uncommon for abusers to be jolly one second and then be like something snapped in their head the next. my maternal grandfather was like that. joking heartily one second then, zap, the next, people were being smashed against the walls. literally.

 

also note his texts- i made a mistake and i can't promise i'll never make one again because i am not perfect. classic. i can't promise i'll not be aggressive again.

true, nobody is perfect. and not everyone's imperfections include the tendency to put people down, throw hissyfits and get physically aggressive.

 

blocking was called for.

 

OP i hope you can plan the time ahead to be spent with family and friends, reading, and letting the pieces of the puzzle fall into place. they will.

[Hermes]

I fully agree, RC. I was just about to say. I have and had Dutch friends, and colleagues. And certainly bluntness was not their thing either. Nationality is not a marker for abusive behaviour. There are terrific people and there are abusers in all countries, races and walks of life. I have lived and worked in Mediterranean regions and find that temperament is just that, temperament.

 

Abusiveness is another matter entirely, something individual. For a non-abusive person it is difficult to understand how an individual's "coping mechanism" can be being abusive to the "other" or to others.

[buffy6956]

Ty for your post winniethepooh... Sorry my grammar was never too good so when I put that " I did not intentionally hit his glasses or drink too much" what that meant was " i didn't intenionally mean to do either... Hit his glasses/drink too much.... Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough... I agree with you that his behaviour nowhere near enters the realms of psychopath but I guess that's how some people express themselves... They could of used the words 'jerk' or 'retard' or any other.... It wasn't mesnt 'literally, was my observation on that... My drinking isn't cause for concern.. I'm a nurse and only work weekdays ... Never drink during the week... Sometimes drink at the weekend and sonetimes have one too many ( parties/out with the girls kinda nights) but not all weekends... As for him being Dutch.. He always told me that Dutch people are friendly and with a sense of humour and I would find that out when I visit... I remember this because he said he speaks German too and Germans are dead pan but Dutch are not and have sense of humour even though their country's are really close... I agree with rainy coast and Hermes on this one and don't think for one moment his nationality has anything to do with it... But each to their own opinions and I do value yours so tks for the input xx

[winniethepooh]

I'm reasonably familiar with Dutch and German culture. Wo ist mein Fahrrad ... En kromme banaan is niet recht etc. But it wasn't my point to question if the abuse was a cultural thing, far from it. Anyway I agree this discussion is about something much more serious than cultural differences, so rather than try and make excuses for my perspective, like I said I'll defer to those who have more experience.

[kath]

There is a clear reason for him sending you the "Oh, I get it, you never really loved me anyway" message. It is because any normal, compassionate person who has a shred of empathy will want to counter that and send a reply and explain that it is not true at all and that you did really care about him. It is such a strong, natural response that it is really hard to suppress it and he's hoping you wouldn't be able to resist and would start a line of discussion over this.

 

As for what he said after you picked him up from the airport, it is really hard to say why he said it or what he meant by it. I've read up on abusers, read hundreds of descriptions of other people's experiences, spent many months analysing my own past and everything that happened. But still there are things I do not understand or can't really explain, because the way abusive people think is just so alien. I can't always relate or understand everything.

[Hermes]

Yes, Kath. That exactly pinpoints it.

 

"........ because the way abusive people think is just so alien. I can't always relate or understand everything."

 

We can't fathom the way they operate, and not being abusive or abusers neither can we "stand in their shoes".

 

The reasons why they are of have become the way they are, well much has been written on the topic.

 

But, Buffy, just a waste of time to dedicate any more thoughts or ruminations to the whys and wherefores.

[ForestofDreams]

I think he shouldn't have pinned you down and been physically aggressive towards you. What you did was a total accident and what he did was a sign that he could have problems in the future. It always starts off mild ...then progresses. Although I consider this not mild at all.

 

You know in your heart he was being too rough, which is why your here. Tell him that you felt afraid/disturbed by his reaction. You said that you regularly play fight as a family thing which MAY be the reason he seemed rough, but hopefully that's all it was. Just set some ground rules. Play fighting is fine as long as it's PLAY fighting and he doesn't step over the line and using this behaviour as means of controlling his anger. That's a no no.

 

I'd be very watchful of him. Just make sure to let him know it wasn't okay. If he accidentally kicked your glasses (like if it were the other way around) I'm sure he wouldn't like you pinning him down and yelling and grabbing his face. It's not a normal reaction and he needs to know a line was stepped over.

 

Forgot to mention, alcohol is never an excuse ...it's normal to act silly and goofy with alcohol, but if he's acting out because there's too much alcohol or whatever the reason it's not an excuse for violence or behaviour such as his.

 

Lots of people drink, but there are some who can't drink because it makes them angry/violent....just please take care of yourself and don't let him act like this, and if he does dump him.

[SophieGrace]

Hi Buffy - I just read your thread, and I wanted to tell you that even though I am a stranger, I am so proud of you for leaving this guy and staying firm on keeping him out of your life. Many people go back to a troubled relationship with an emotional excuse like "but I love him" or "I may never find anyone again" and are puzzled that the same situation plays out again. You got some good advice here, and you were smart enough and have enough self-respect to know what happened was wrong, take it to heart, and do something about it. To me that's both brave and self-honoring.

 

As for looking back on the relationship and the warning signs that began to emerge, I think that's totally normal. I also think it's healthy that you are looking at the ways you may not have honored yourself when he made snarky comments. As another poster noted, it will help you to look at your next dating experience with new eyes. In the end, while I understand that this was a painful experience for you, what a great opportunity for growth. As I mentioned above - I am so proud of you and I appreciate your courage in posting.

[Lucia Amman]

I'm reasonably familiar with Dutch and German culture. Wo ist mein Fahrrad ... En kromme banaan is niet recht etc. But it wasn't my point to question if the abuse was a cultural thing, far from it. Anyway I agree this discussion is about something much more serious than cultural differences, so rather than try and make excuses for my perspective, like I said I'll defer to those who have more experience.

 

I'm dutch and my american friends always said playfully that I was so blunt! I read what your point was. But none of the things he said in Buffy's example are ok or just plain 'blunt'. He was being controlling.

 

That said I think there is a thin line between a person who is really abusive or a person who is considered more 'normal'. There must be some sort of scale for how abusive abusers are say from 1 to 10. And I do believe that mild cases or just very strong willed abusers can change. It's just not that you need to hang around with them before they do.

[Lucia Amman]

RainyCoast thanks for the links.

 

I read this in one of them: "#13 The support system. They convince you that you can’t exist without their support. You lose your own your individuality and you’d start to doubt yourself and your capabilities. Eventually, no matter what anyone else says, you’d never be able to walk away as you can’t imagine living without your abusive lover’s support because you’re so dependent on them.

 

#14 The blame game. An abusive lover will blame you for their problems. Right from why they got late to work to their miserable life, they’d always blame you for it. And on the rare occasion when they can’t fault you, an abusive partner will never accept blame, instead they’d place blame elsewhere or on someone else."

 

Kinda what my ex was like. A lot. He always used to tell me that no one would ever love me again or start a relationship with me if I leave him. Who would put up with my off behavior? 'You think they would accept you with how you act or do this and that?' And he always told me I was lacking social skills and that I had no friends (even though I did have five very good friends - and I must say he always let me go to them).

He always told me he didn't had a social life because I needed so much attention.

I should have seen the signs more clearly because I remember very well that when we started dating he told me how his ex did this and that and that she was crazy. She became crazier the more we went serious and I already loved him too much to end it even though I did see the signs. I always get itchy if an ex is called crazy. But he wasn't very talkative about her and he had other exes who he spoke of normally. So I think his bit abusive behavior developed later in life.

 

I was quite depressive very soon into the relationship. And although I think he put up with a lot of my hsit I also always wonder if I was feeling depressed because he made me think I was so incapable of everything. I'm sure I have a tendency or something wired inside me that doesn't make me the most stable person alive. But maybe he inflamed something that was just all around a bad dynamic for the two of us.

[buffy6956]

Very interesting post cocopoisin… I too noticed these signs but like you was too much in love to think of them any differently than he just cared/wanted me to look good/better myself!!! … to which I obliged… could it be then that certain personality traits fuel a potential abusers fire? I don't know but like I said before, a work colleque told me that had her partner told her he didn't like her dress /coat then she would of determined to wear it more!! Would this then of shown the abuser 'strength'… would that of prevented his/her potential abuse or just delayed it? Would he/she of been able in the end to wear down even the strongest personality or as I said before is it certain personality traits that abusers recognise ?? My ex though was quite perplexing as , when he used to play his guitar to me, I used to praise him and then he told me that his ex 2nd wife would never let him play and always moaned if he did try…. I said " you're kidding me, why? " he said she controlled him.. Was horrible to his eldest son from 1st marriage and he said that in hindsight he should of left her then….. Now this is how its perplexing to me… I always saw my ex as a strong character so I can't fathom out how she controlled him? He also said he hated her with a passion and even went so far as saying that if he saw her in the street and he was driving ..he would run her over….. (I know.. I know… BIG warning sign but that comment combined with the sweet loving man I knew i took to be just banter)…. This was a man who would easily cry when talking about his childhood.. He said his was ok (he was the youngest ) but that his sisters got taken into care… he is still very close to them now…. This was a man who would cry when telling me how much he loves me and what I mean to him…. So you can see why this whole thing puzzles me!!!…. And snowhite thankyou so much for your kind message that put a big smile on my face and I kinda wanted to do the tarzan thumping thing on my chest ..like… what a strong girl I an 😊 thanks again everyone for your input its so interesting xxx

[AllwnGoodNMyLf]

"Grabbed my face...shouted at me...pinned my head down". Party over. If this is the behavior you get after a few months, I can only imagine how he will act in a few years. People are always on their best behavior early on in the relationship, so it won't get any better than this.

 

I was dating a guy who made me feel beautiful, sexy, and smart 95% of the time. The other 5% was him critiquing how I dress, being aggressive emotionally, and playing mind games. I should have left the first time he critiqued my image, but because I liked him so much, I hung around. When I decided to tell him I needed a break, I was able to look back at those little nasty things he was doing, and it made it easy to never talk to him again.

 

I can't really give you any advice because you're going to make you own decision, but for me, I choose to be single and enjoy the great life God has given me rather than let someone in who causes me to be anxious, concerned, or fearful. Unless a man brings love, peace, and support into my life, just as I will do for him also, then there's no reason for him to be there.

 

Good luck in whatever choice you make.

[lifesatrip]

You are rationalizing what is totally, unquestionably abusive behavior. He doesn't have to like or accept her drunken behavior (though personally I don't see anything wrong with it). If it is unacceptable to him he could speak to her respectfully about it and/or leave. There is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for physical and mental/emotional intimidation and aggression, especially in front of a child! It is very disturbing to read responses in which people are minimizing the severity of his behavior and asking us to see things from his point of view. This is the least helpful thing you could say to someone who is faced with an abusive partner. That's how abusers gaslight and control their victim, they shift the blame, don't take responsibility for their behavior ("she made me act this way because she was doing x,y,z"), and minimize the aggression/severity of the act. It is not a "hissy fit," it is a very clear act of aggression which illuminates his utter lack of respect for her as well as his inability to respect basic boundaries. I don't think abusive people are necessarily monsters, but he is definitely not fit for a romantic relationship. This behavior is extremely troubling and shows very strongly that he is controlling and abusive, and that his behavior will most likely escalate over time in a dangerous way.

 

OP, I think it is really great that you have broken up with this guy, and I think you should not try to see things from his point of view, because clearly he is an unethical, controlling, abusive person who has treated you abusively. He is trying to manipulate you (consciously or unconsciously) to see things from his own warped perspective. He is not capable and/or not motivated to see things from your point of view. So any inch you give, he will take a mile. You can see how reluctant he was to even verbally take responsibility for his behavior and not try to justify it in some way based on your behavior. Pretending to take responsibility was only the last resort that he used when he realized he'd lost you for good. Maybe this sounds harsh, but based on my own experience of abusive men and based on research I've done into the cycle of abuse and abusive personalities, these characterizations of him are not a stretch. Plus, if there's even a possibility that a guy may be abusive, run! It honestly can be a matter of life or death, or life or torture. Keep him away from you and your life and be grateful you got to see his true colors earlier than later.

[desperado22]

Lady you don't know how much worse he will get. He did that enfront of your kids? There is no telling what he would do when alone with you... Get a real wonderful relationship. Don't waste your time with this angry looser. Run...

[Hollyj]

Buffy, these types can spot people with a lack of boundaries. There were many examples that occurred, where he made a derogatory comment, and you were more than eager to make immediate change - ie. clothing situations. If you had boundaries in place, and better self esteem, you would not have reacted, but chose to go ahead with your choices. You need to believe in yourself. If he had said those things to me, I would have said, too bad. I like the way I look.

 

These guys know who to target, and I suggest you go back and understand why you were so willing to cater to this guy.

 

Have you dated someone like this before? What was your dynamic with your folks.

[Hollyj]

Buffy, these types can spot people with a lack of boundaries. There were many examples that occurred, where he made a derogatory comment, and you were more than eager to make immediate change - ie. clothing situations. If you had boundaries in place, and better self esteem, you would not have reacted, but chose to go ahead with your choices. You need to believe in yourself. If he had said those things to me, I would have said, too bad. I like the way I look.

 

These guys know who to target, and I suggest you go back and understand why you were so willing to cater to this guy.

 

Have you dated someone like this before? What was your dynamic with your folks.

 

Extremely dysfunctional background, and scary comments about an ex, are huge red flags. You need to be more proactive after the first red flag. So many blaring flags in this relationship, yet you failed to act.

[buffy6956]

Hi hollyj... Thanks for your post... My childhood was ideallic with supportive loving parents... Your right... I did fail to act until it became physical , prompting me to write my post on here... When he told me about his ex wife , it did shock me a bit but I also took it as angry banter....the other red flags ...clothes etc I didn't really see this as control until now and to be honest I think it would of been really hard for me to finish the relationship with him over a comment about my dress seeing as everything else about our relationship was so good... If I had of left him after the remark about my dress and then family/friends asked me why it finished and I said.." Cause he made a remark about my dress".. I think they probably would of said... Are u being serious....!!!! I Belleve that had it only been remarks regards clothes etc that I would of eventually been more proactive and told him .. "Well sorry but I like it"... However it was when he was berating my son that I had my first niggles of doubt then when he shouted at me in Budapest I was honestly ready to call it quits on return to this country.. However after the flight back it kind of blew over and I thought I would see how the next couple weeks panned out... We had a barbecue to go to the first weekend back (his friends) that we promised we would go to and we had a good time.. I only saw him that night and half the next day then didn't see him again until last weekend when he got physical with me.... I think what I've learnt is that I need to keep my guard up until I get to know them more thoroughly and not get swept away with emotion... It's the old cliche but he made me feel so loved and special in the beginning and I fell for it.. Hook..line and sinker.. I'm guilty as much of that...I certainly will be more proactive from now on xx

[Hollyj]

There were multiple occasion, at tearing you down and trying to control. I guess I'm looking at everything that you have mentioned, and I was not simply focusing on the dressing comments, simple an example. Him always having to be right, and the ridiculous reaction in Budapest, are not good.

 

How long were you together?

 

Remember, you can't change him, but you can change your own behaviors. Take the focus off of him, and focus on why you did not react sooner. This is now about you.

 

I also think that since you were still questioning whether this was an abusive situation, is a problem. Have you considered counseling?

[buffy6956]

I was with him for four months... Could not fault the first 2/3 quarters... Yes those comments he made did make me feel uneasy even though I'm sure he sensed it because he said something like " you don't mind me telling u if I don't think something looks good on you do you?.... Because I'd expect u to tell me if there was something/I was wearing something u didn't think looked right or didn't suit me"... Then I was back to the mindset of thinking well I guess I would expect my best friend to tell me if I looked fat in something or it didn't suit me!!! So I figured that was either very clever of him or he did only mean it in an honest/only saying it cause I care way... I guess I'm too forgiving/soft and mostly see the good in people..never look at things as guilty as charged unless proven.... Now I see though the mistakes i've made and Budapest should of been the guilty as charged... Yes hollyj I need to be more assertive and more cautious ( not run in with my eyes shut).. I've taken the first big step and finished it with him.. Didn't see him again after the night he got physical which was/is very hard as you don't just switch off feelings although respect has been swept right away... I have a book suggested coming that I'm looking forward to reading and in the meantime im enjoying the support and love of my close loving family... Ty hollyj for your insight x

[Hollyj]

Slowly breaking you down and blaming you for the outbursts is also key. He should have apologized. Period! No defection.

 

I have no problem with someone saying something doesn't look great, but it's the way he said it. It sounded so disapproving.

 

So glad you ended things and blocked!!!!!!!

 

Great that you will be doing some reading on the topic. Will help you identify the signs.