Out with the old, in with the now

[Sportster2005]

Batya - absolutely right. With respect to Ice, I need to manage myself differently. I am opening myself up to others.

 

If I were a man, I would ask Ice out for something in particular, and then let him percolate. He is clearly interested, at least moderately, and clearly averse to the responsibility of engaging more deeply. So I would ask him out once every 3 or 6 weeks, just for fun. But I won't. I think doing that is received differently when initiated by a woman.

 

I don't know how representative I am of the male population, but I don't think it would necessarily be received as different.

[IAmFCA]

I don't know how representative I am of the male population, but I don't think it would necessarily be received as different.

 

Thank you for that feedback. I like to play my own game and don't like the fact that I have begun to think about meta communication.

[IAmFCA]

Feeling kind of ... Unfed. Like, I am the host of the party and never the guest. I think MWFN is marrying. I knew he would. I could be wrong, we didn't finish the conversation. Of course, he told me in a way that describes it as a soution, coupled with fear etc. I responded as if he had just told me the opposite, with I am so glad for you! ... I am not up for hearing this cr@p about using her to achieve a lifestyle. If he chooses a path I am hearing nothing but that its all love and lifetime.

 

I am feeling that Ice is not available and wants to know I can date him without becoming vulnerable to him, and atm, I'm tired and missing having a guy. New guy is still on OKC and is active and is not asking me out. My daughter overwhelmed and her emotional state was more than I could overcome to keep working and stay upbeat.

 

I went on okc, clicked a few heads, confirmed for prior date that I was not interested, and otherwise had no interest.

 

Mostly, I am tired.

[IAmFCA]

Oh boy.

 

Well, not gonna talk about this here. Yikes.

 

Not getting married, but confused about it. Aware that he is positioned for it. And thinking... Actually, I am not sure I did the right thing with you. I think about it every day. There is nothing like it is with you, in terms of companionship, communication, and emotional and physical intimacy.... He is raising all issues in mentor meeting, including wondering what he is supposed to do with me. Of course I said, no, there is nothing like it, that's true. But a rl with you is off the table. It was right that you ended it, I am better off, and you have a few things to sort out and are in no position to sustain a rl until you get right with yourself. The legal stuff is coming to a close; he won. Finally, he is getting rid of some layers of loss of people and property. Still his judgment is colored by his distaste for himself and his strong desire to do right by others; he is working on it but progress is slow. I feel no pull towards him, having long reconciled that I met someone made of the same skin and that is okay; I do not want his chaos. Another couple of years, or a year even, may be different.

 

I will stay away again as I had. To be in touch with him by voice isn't kind, it was like a trigger. His mind is not clear, and I need and want to invest in myself. Leaving out the rest.

[Batya33]

Hope you have a better day today. I'm sorry but not surprised that he is back to his old vague musings about what could have been - I know it's irritating and hurtful to hear in this rinse, repeat. Good of you to wish him well on his marriage plans.

[IAmFCA]

Thank you, Batya. It didn't feel hurtful, and it turned out I misunderstood his comments and he is still in serious bf/gf mode, not Buy a ring mode. He enumerated his challenges with the rl; he is concerned that it wouldn't be enough to retain his commitment because he feels available to me even though we'd not spoken in some time.

 

As usual, he is in emotional disarray. He can love me and I can love him, but it doesn't mean anything in terms of life choices. I can't be involved with someone who will sacrifice himself for someone else. His self worth is too low for him to be a reliable counterparty, and that also suggests a limit to his capacity to love others. I deserve better.

 

Being in contact with him is dangerous for me, so I will keep it limited as before. It remains that we see each other more clearly than others we know, that we say things to help each other that reflect a spot on in-depth understanding of fact and nuance. That kind of intimacy is misleading; it remains he is completely ill-prepared to deliver what I want.

 

Distraction, use of brain, back to my regularly scheduled program. Reminds me of Faraday's experience, and I am glad we keep space between us.

 

Oh yes there is a cost: I am reminded of what I have said to my bestie before and said again today. MWFN was not saying What Was, he was saying What Is. It was telling. I am a present experience for him despite my absence. In 18 months, I half expect MWFN to show himself and to inquire about being together again. It will be the same time that I am choosing to commit to someone else. 18 - 24 months. Bestie said, send me a calendar invite because we can mark the day when this will happen. We are joking, but it is a logical possibility. It is imperative that if I choose, I listen to every inner voice and choose with confidence. No denial of inconvenient truths, whatever they may be.

[IAmFCA]

And, thank you. I am on target for a better day. Admit I woke feeling loved in no small part because last night I was told I love you so many times. Putting it out of my head.

 

Also, deleted Ice's text string, again, yesterday. Failed miserably at helping him feel safe, that he wouldn't be leading me on. We are attracted and interested, but I've got to slow down the pace with which I telegraph my availability. This is a broad statement, Ice the most recent example.

 

Also texted myself a reminder not to text him, so I see it on the screen.

 

He will text me eventually. I am not sure how I will respond. I suspect he will send How's your day? I will ignore, maybe before bed text Just saw this, busy day. Lunch soon? And then be done with texting. Let it wait till we can talk. I get that he wants to keep me and not give me what I want, which is to be courted. So, I need to be my own talent agent.

 

So much to learn anew that was old hat BITD.

[IAmFCA]

One more detail... MWFN and his kids still talk about me; a week ago he was describing to them my career and my success.

 

I don't talk about MWFN to my kids. They expected him to stay forever and aren't interested in hearing about him. They are glad for Ice, whom they know about through other channels. The vague presence of someone qualified gives them something to hope for, in a way, because they want a man in their camp. Only one, and only the right one. Months ago MWFN told me his kids were not fans of new girl. I hope it's better now and presume so. Meanwhile, he keeps me active in their minds. I am glad for that actually; I like his kids and our kids are still networked.

 

Its just... Too much.

 

Ok. No more to record.

[IAmFCA]

Ok yeah, it sucks now. Why? Because it is like a big sucking sound that pulls me in.

 

I just got out. I can't get near it.

[WithLove]

So, how do you expect yourself to fall in love with an available man when you keep yourself attached with all these emotionally unavailable ones?

 

I mean it in the most loving way possible. You are a wonderfully strong, resilient woman. But you're keeping these guys on your radar for when you're feeling needy. And they're doing the same to you.

[IAmFCA]

So, how do you expect yourself to fall in love with an available man when you keep yourself attached with all these emotionally unavailable ones?

 

I mean it in the most loving way possible. You are a wonderfully strong, resilient woman. But you're keeping these guys on your radar for when you're feeling needy. And they're doing the same to you.

 

Keep at it, because you are right.

 

And I met one who is available and made myself unavailable to him. But I think that was legitimate.

 

I don't think I am avoiding a rl. There aren't many men I meet in whom I want to invest. I am thinking I need more practice at being man-less.

 

Pretty much reamed MWFN out this evening for being a cad, using future talk to keep his women attached to him. I don't want to watch his current rl d/evolve. Whichever way it goes, he has now 15+ years of pretending to love when he doesn't. Its just bullcrap. And nobody calls him out on it.

 

I'd forgotten how sincere he is about striving to improve and how repetitive he is in his patterns.

 

Which means me too, and my pattern is what you said - keeping them around for when I need them. Its been making me wonder if worIk and parenting etc.has me leas available than I realize. Maybe all I want is a casual sort of thing.

[IAmFCA]

1. Example: if I had had a date tonight, I'd have been hungry, pale, and late. I went to bed before 9.

2. Ice texted me re kids and game schedule. There is something for me to learn here. To practice. It's the love my life bit. Sometimes I want the man as a way of pulling myself out, a distraction. Oh! This sounds like an adhd symptom! No wonder, because late at night, traveling after dinner etc, I am not medicated. I can use the additional responsibility of a proper rl like...yeah, no. Not so much.

3. I would like something though.

 

And it's true, I like this one guy. So, I mean, thats where I am at. No online action this week, no requests for a date from New guy and you know what? I'm glad. New guy I would have been using just to distract/validate myself and maybe get a little kiss. I thought when I got home earlier, I am so glad I am not using New guy this weekend.

 

4. Guess what cool thing happened. I made plans for tomorrow, a group of women. Now, that's a cool outcome.

[IAmFCA]

It's tough having opened the door to MWFN. It is so damn rewarding, because he acts in his best interests when I am attentive.

 

I know that yesterday and today raised up issues that he has been ignoring, and I was quite clear yesterday in my anger and also my dismay and distance. But then, tonight, I knew. That's how I got in this spot in the first place. I just KNOW things about him. I feel a vague siren of danger. I had been ignoring but felt he was drowning and my friend urged me to reach out. So, he went to doctor to father and to religious leader. He did amazing work. And tonight the weight of it is upon him. I badgered him (gently, poked him really) to engage with me, it took four hours, but he finally did. He has been so depressed he is not fully functioning. Depression is so terribly hard, depression for him is quite deep, he's been untreated for so long, and it serves to protect him from the deeper pain. It is, actually, very adhd as is his alcoholism. I feel pain and will use it as an opportunity to meditate, to cleanse my spirit of his darkness.

 

At least he knows I am close by and that he is not alone.

 

Perhaps I will celebrate that in darkness I was able to touch someone and to let them have their darkness in peace and in faith that a light was nearby.

[IAmFCA]

To be explicit:

 

I can not save him.

 

If I give him moments of light, I can be glad for that.

[IAmFCA]

This has been me, coming to terms with the facts. 1. I attract unavailable because I am unavailable, at least in practical terms. 2. I have plenty to engage me and benefit from my narrowed focus of late. 3. I have a high desire for sexual intimacy, like a constant latent desire. 4. I am enjoying the authority, the simplicity, the mental cleanliness that comes from not having short term rls. 5. I do not like where this is going! But I do like it, just afraid of this path in which men are not a goal nor a resource. 6. Yes itic you will have sex again, I promise, and it will be before your guest turn on The Golden Girls. And I think it might be worth the wait... I mean, it's been since mwfn for goodness sakes!

[Batya33]

How about assuming he does not need saving and if he does he is seriously involved with a person who can help him or find outside resources to help him?

[IAmFCA]

How about assuming he does not need saving and if he does he is seriously involved with a person who can help him or find outside resources to help him?

 

As a result of me reaching out a couple of weeks ago, he contacted two outside sources - something he had been avoiding for a year.

 

He doesn't need saving. He is doing what he needs, which is struggling through. And he is making good progress. The criminal charges leveled by the exW are finally being dropped and expunged, other leftover issues are being resolved.

 

I realized last night that the adhd isn't being treated right now; this is devastating. We went through the same research, I offered my shared experience for understanding.

 

I will hear the outcome of this week's meetings with the resources mentioned.

 

As I described in an earlier post, I had checked out and was encouraged by a mutual friend to check in. At some point, it is simply the most human act I can offer. If I can help in a way that is uniquely effective, I'll do that. Sometimes our own mental health takes a village.

 

But also I have told him I will exit, due to the continued presence of certain patterns in his life. There are limits to my current efforts and how much more I will invest, based on whether those patterns change.

[IAmFCA]

Batya, I hear your larger point- he's got a support system, I don't need to be part of it.

 

We're not all interchangeable like that. He has actually made his terms with her that she accept my continued presence in his life - even though we had been out of touch. This is wrong of him, but an indication of his perspective of who he needs on his team.

 

I won't stick around, I can't afford it and it would destructive. For him too, but my concern is for me.

 

Is it altruistic, what I am doing? I don't really believe in that. Everything we give serves ourselves in some way. But this does not serve me in any way other than to challenge me to grow my skills of empathy and boundary, both concurrently. So I am using it for that. I also think it is a way, in a Jungian sense, a way of loving my brother. My brother shares some qualities with MWFN, both good and challenging, and I see both as loving, deeply sensitive men who have an innocence about them. Managing themselves is a challenge they share, and me too to a lesser degree, and it all relates back to the same chemical imbalance.

 

Honestly Batya, I don't think about it that deeply. It is ways painful to know someone we love is in pain, whether they are in our lives or not.

[IAmFCA]

Thinking about this while cleaning up...

 

I help because I can. Its that simple.

 

It's clear that I can because there is a visible cause and effect. When he has made as many moves as he is prepared to accomplish, we will fall out of touch again, because that is the point beyond which I am not helpful.

[Batya33]

"We're not all interchangeable like that. He has actually made his terms with her that she accept my continued presence in his life - even though we had been out of touch. This is wrong of him, but an indication of his perspective of who he needs on his team."

 

Never said we were. Just commenting on your particular situation and his particular situation. Who cares who he "needs on his team?" In this situation (in case you are tempted to think I am generalizing) I don't think you are being helpful to yourself or to him by interacting in this way.

[IAmFCA]

The MWFN conversation reached its natural conclusion and it would appear our communication is successfully completed. He neither showed where he knew I would be - as he had previously said he would - nor has he texted.

 

Meanwhile, I had so much fun with friends last night, and I was in the mood to act a little reckless.As ihardly drink etc, and have also sworn off casual connections, what did I do? Stayed up all night listening to music in the coolest studio ever. What fun. Slept in late with the sun streaming in, and woke to find an early morning text from Ice, reporting in just after dawn.

 

Owning my life is fun.

 

Time to get my stuff together and create a powerful day.

[IAmFCA]

I am bouncing all around on this:

 

I love having my life and living it.

 

I miss having someone chasing me.

 

I mean, frankly, there almost always has been someone, even if I didn't like him so much.

 

This clean slate of mine is the result of me screening out pretty much everyone I meet; I think I am doing a better job of screening. Now have to do a better job of not being an emotional crutch, such as how I let develop a pattern of Ice texting me daily but for what? What does he add to my life? Nothing. Ahh, but I must be getting something from these crutch situations or I wouldn't let them happen, and of course I do. As the heir and lifelong participant of a co-dependent relationship style, which is how my siblings used me from Day 1 and hence has been irregularly comfortable for me, I have begun to switch out of that and into.... nothing. lol. I have retained the validation I get from being a coD by retaining opportunities to be a crutch for people, to be there touchstone, their sounding board, etc. I am getting validation.

 

Why do I need that? I think I don't. Its a crutch for me, and one for me to excise at its root, which goes way back. When I excised the destructive dating dynamic, I found it came from a fear of abandonment. Does this come from the same place? It feels more like a fear of being alone. The answer has the word "fear" in it, and I have learned to walk towards my fear. Hence my clean slate on dating: I know I am afraid of having nobody ever, or of finding that someone when I am somehow "old" and nostalgic for the fun years that would then be behind me. So, let's do that now, let's have nobody RIGHT NOW and prove to myself that its no biggie. Fear of aging seems to be wrapped into this too, like I have a fear of who I will become. I have a very real fear of losing my sexuality, because that is in the media everywhere, and some men have said to me its a real thing. Some MEN -- what do they know. Maybe their wives are just done trying to make it work with them. How about I drop this fear:

 

I will who I will be, and I have the tools to enjoy it, no matter who I am.

 

And why be an emotional resource? This is tougher, I am dang good at it. I walked into my neighbor's house recently, there for an errand, there for 10 minutes, and they are no more than acquaintances of mine. She expressed a challenge with child-rearing. I responded. She said Thank you for the advice, yet I wasn't aware I had given any; I had shared a common experience. And then she said what my story meant to her (which in truth is what it was supposed to mean, if she was ready to learn from it). It opened her eyes to her own behavior and turned her approach around 180 degrees; it was exactly the kernel of discovery she was looking for. That kind of stuff happens to me with some frequency. So, its extra difficult to feel like I am turning away from one of my gifts.

 

OTOH, I MUST turn away from it when I offer it at my own expense. In that sense, MWFN is EXACTLY who I was supposed to meet, because he is my mirror image in this respect. He gives of himself as a way of seeing his value reflected back to him. I do not need to do this. I argue that we are all of value; that we are not what we do, who we know, or what we have. That our spirit within us is our source of value and therefore it can not be diminished nor separated from ourselves. It is only that we have to choose to see it so that our actions can reflect its reality.

 

And yet, am I letting people hang on to me because I need to see my value reflected back to me? Am I afraid of letting go because then who would value me beyond myself? Yes sweet love, yes. That is the dynamic. Ice wanted to befriend you and it made you happy because you understand his personality and you knew that meant he saw more value in you than someone whom he was using as a short term thing. OTOH, why should his value of you even matter? MWFN and you have a mutual admiration society thing going on, no matter how much he ticks you off, the underlying appreciation of who he is remains. His words to me build me up, always "to have someone of your quality in my camp" etc. Am I using him for that reinforcement?

 

Also, of note: I can let women go with ease; choose whom I want to keep, let fade whom I let fade. Yet with men, it is more laborious. It is intentional, it is not intuitive, I fight it at some very deep level even if it doesn't engage my brain to fight it. So, like the dating dynamic of a few years back: this goes back to Dad. This goes back to learning that love feels like the push pull of being valued and being dismissed. That love of myself is as reflected back through his eyes, the eyes of someone who couldn't see me, didn't know me, and who was afraid to let me be the woman I chose to be, of whom now he is quite proud.

 

I need a mantra and a practice. A mantra that reminds me that only I can know myself as clearly as I do, and the knowledge that that is enough. Use that mantra to practice letting them go, quickly, early and often, like voting.

 

Perhaps I use the mantra as a take off of Men are like Kleenex; there is always another one. I never liked how inhuman that sounded. But maybe there is one I can make up: Let a man go the same way I vote, early and often.

 

Let a man go the same way I vote, early and often. That might be something I can remember.

[mhowe]

Perhaps simply ask yourself if your actions are Authentic?

 

WTBA ---- would this be Authentic?

[IAmFCA]

Perhaps simply ask yourself if your actions are Authentic?

 

WTBA ---- would this be Authentic?

 

That is the test I have been using. If I ask and answer in the moment, it is almost always Yes, and if it isn't a Yes, I am able to redirect myself.

 

In the moment, I forget about the patterns of behavior, I forget that people use strategy with people; I forget my own strategy. I don't tend to carry that around. So I can go a day or three without texting Ice, for example, but then if he were to send me a funny selfie mid-run, for example, I react and respond because, shrug, Why not? So in the moment, it feels authentic.

 

But over time, I think it would have been better to just ignore. I like making a connection and being available to make a connection, and I like it too soon, before I have seen that the connection will provide value.

[Batya33]

I think being authentic certainly can include considering the long term consequences of actions.