Anti-Rape/Sexual Assault Campaigns

[duke nukem]

There are very effective ways to conceal a firearm on your person, and in places that are easy to access and secure. And cowboys didn't keep a round in the chamber because back then firearms were not as stable as they are now. Even if dropped, a modern firearm won't just discharge (unless you buy a piece of * * * * , in which case you need to reconsider the value of your life). If you have to take the time to cycle a round into the chamber, then you are already dead. I could discus firearm construction all day, but to make the point short modern automatic pistols have two safeties, the main either a button or lever, and the grip safety which prevents the firearm from discharging unless the handle is gripped. Perfectly safe-and logical-to keep a round chambered.

 

 

But yes, back to the main point, there does need to be other ways to keep people safe, especially in cases where the victim knows their attacker.

[annie24]

But yes, back to the main point, there does need to be other ways to keep people safe, especially in cases where the victim knows their attacker.

 

And A LOT of victims know their attackers. most rapes occur between people who know each other. it's not the scary man hiding in the bushes always. it can be the date, or a friend of a friend. sometimes the kindly neighbor down the hall trying to help us with our groceries.

[ApocalypseDreams]

I can't believe the idea of people carrying GUNS is being suggested as a solution. Like we really need MORE guns in society.

[Lonewing]

You keep missing the point I am trying to make. The most time you have to react to an anonymous attack is literally PERHAPS one second. It's for this reason that a man with a knife within ten feet is more lethal than a man with a secured gun in the holster at ten feet. You DO NOT have time to pull out the gun, disable the safety, aim and fire if your attacker is within five feet from the time you discover he's going to attack you.

 

Annie's already proved my points precisely: the most powerful weapons are 1) the head and 2) self defense.

 

And for the love of sakes, please go get some proper gun Training. The NRA offers many GREAT courses on the subject.

 

A gun has yet to be produced that is both reliable and "safe from misfire" when loaded - it's the nature of the machine!

[Lonewing]

I can't believe the idea of people carrying GUNS is being suggested as a solution. Like we really need MORE guns in society.

 

I will say this: if a man 50 feet ahead of me jumps a girl, and I have a gun, I have a very effective means of warding him off. Otherwise, I may very well become a victim too if I run over and help her out. Without the gun, all I can do is call the police with my phone while she gets raped. The cops will be over in what, 2-5 minutes? That's more than enough time for the * * * * * * * to be finished and on his way.

 

It's empowering, I will say this much.

 

I've seen this phrase used by the pro-gun crowd: "The cops are minutes away when seconds count."

[Lonewing]

And A LOT of victims know their attackers. most rapes occur between people who know each other. it's not the scary man hiding in the bushes always. it can be the date, or a friend of a friend. sometimes the kindly neighbor down the hall trying to help us with our groceries.

 

And another way to put it, in these scenarios the girl has turned her brain off because, quite honestly, these are not people who she SHOULD have to suspect, in a nice normal life.

[duke nukem]

I can't believe the idea of people carrying GUNS is being suggested as a solution. Like we really need MORE guns in society.

 

Well, if you look at the statistics, in areas where law abiding citizens carry there is less crime than in "gun free" areas. Which furthers my point of people carrying being helpful to protecting oneself. Criminals are cowards, plain and simple. They look for a weak target, be it for robbery or rape. The possibility that they may be killed before completing their action is actually a useful deterrent, as statistics show.

 

 

And what, because you maybe perhaps possibly won't have the chance to utilize your firearm, well no point in carrying it? That's like saying I won't wear a life jacket because I could still drown.

 

Worried about missing? Look up the Judge. For all the flak it gets, it's an effective self defense platform.

 

Also, people who think that guns are bad are plain ignorant. Did people not kill one another before the invention of the gun?

[Lonewing]

RE: Women should be allowed to dress as they wish when they go out in society

 

I had a thought on this issue.

 

Years ago I saw this movie, Warrior Queen, and there was this scene where Boudica takes her two daughers and rides into the Roman camp, right up to the Captain's tent, and basically asserts her individual sovereignty over herself and her land.

 

The captain looks at her like she's crazy, and then reminds her where she is.

 

The three are siezed, and tied up; the mother is then flogged while the daughters are raped by everyone in the camp who wants some. needless to say, it was a very disturbing scene.

 

But I think it gets the point accross rather well: we all must be fully aware that there are places were we cannot assert our "rights," for in those places, Rights are determined by who has local power, and even handled as the priveleges that they are. It seems to me like the "Sl*twalk campaign is akin to the Boudica Obstinance: it's stubborn, foolish, and even if it's within rights, it's not within reason. Encouraging such behavior seems like it will only lead to further incursions.

 

As it is, the girl ends up drunk and then falls under the statuatory rape umbrella, anyway...regardless of what she's wearing, of course!

[annie24]

Well, honestly, I can't speak for the rapists, but I really think that clothing has very little to do with it. You put it this way: don't put the keys on top of your ferrari in a bad neighborhood. Well, I'd add, don't put the keys to your 1995 Honda Civic in a bad neighborhood either! Rapists don't necessarily go after the prettiest looking women, so much as the easiest targets.

 

I submit to you that a woman who is scantily clad, but who takes a taxi to and from the party, and at the party, she doesn't let strangers bring her drinks, she watches her drink the whole night, she doesn't drink until she's intoxicated and she's aware of her surroundings is going to be safer off than a woman who - regardless of what she is wearing, walks home by herself at night, drinks too much, and has others bring her drinks, etc. The scantily clad woman taking the taxi is not an easy target. The woman walking by herself at night, drunk, is an easier target, no matter what she is wearing.

[duke nukem]

Very good points.

[OptomisticGirl]

Annie said it beautifully. It's not about what you wear - women have been raped in the middle of winter with no skin showing - it's about circumstances. Again, in no other crime are you asked what you were wearing before any other question - perhaps we should start.

[Seraphim]

If being raped is about what one is wearing then why do kids get raped? I mean I was tucked up in my bed fast asleep in my own room. The rapist came to MY room and raped me. It has ZERO to do with clothes.

[PhilliesFan001]

If being raped is about what one is wearing then why do kids get raped? I mean I was tucked up in my bed fast asleep in my own room. The rapist came to MY room and raped me. It has ZERO to do with clothes.

 

Exactly. Kids, the elderly, unattractive women - they are all raped. Men can be raped by other "heterosexual" men in prison. If revealing clothes and sexual attraction were the primary motivation behind the crimes, then wouldn't you expect the victims to be mostly beautiful young women? Rape goes far beyond sexual desire and that is what people like that idiotic cop don't realize. Telling a woman to cover up does not fix the problem, as much as people would like to believe. As someone else pointed out, women in the middle east are raped and some of them are covered literally head to toe. So what are those women supposed to do? What's left to cover up?

 

The whole point of the campaign is to stop law enforcement and the men and women who believe that rape victims invited it by being dressed a certain way - the campaign wasn't started because women are upset they can't wear tight clothes. It was started because there is such a lack of understanding about the crime and the thought processes behind the crimes. Perhaps instead of telling women to change the way they dress, we should be trying to educate boys and men younger and younger about respecting women.

[duke nukem]

Perhaps instead of telling women to change the way they dress, we should be trying to educate boys and men younger and younger about respecting women.

 

I agree with this, but family upbringing and perhaps even genetics are possible reasons that people become rapists. I think there is only so much that education can do. Still, like carrying a form of self defense, anything that could lessen the problem is part of the solution.

 

 

And I should add that culture may also influence actions. I remember studying popular media in India in one of my classes, and we watched a video in which many Indian men expressed their enjoyment of rape focused movies, and that if they saw a woman being raped they would help the rapist to rape her further. Now, this isn't everyone, but again culture and genetics could be a reason, and it's hard to teach against those things.

[Lonewing]

ABSOLUTELY!!! Although there are some unscrupulous taxi drivers, but they are rare.

 

I think the big thing here to consider is that your very wise and very effective measures run counter to "fun." The boys want to get her drunk, and she WANTS to be drunk. She's already wearing something that Screams "yes," which means even if they don't go right to her, everybody in the place is already looking at her. In short, she will attract free drinks - which seems to be so many girl's delight in going out.

 

Now the boys want the girls drunk becasue a drunk girl will very easily say yes when if she was sober she'd say no. Or, they can very easily move her to where they want to be by simply telling her about this crazy party, dance, happening thing, and now she wants to go with her cool new friends - because they're so much fun!

 

The social scene is right now rigged against the woman who under clear conscience is sexually discrete. The clubs run on alchohol; the patrons run on the premise that in order to have a good time, everybody has to be drinking. The boys benefit, the club owners benefit, and indeed - even a number of grils who won't admit that they like sex, enjoy the game. There are then those who indeed get taken advantage of, willingly, and those still who get taken advantage of against their will. The way I look at it, you can only stick your head just so far down a tiger's mouth before he'll bite it off.

 

If we want the social environment to change, I dare say it will be up to women to change it.

[OptomisticGirl]

I agree with this, but family upbringing and perhaps even genetics are possible reasons that people become rapists. I think there is only so much that education can do. Still, like carrying a form of self defense, anything that could lessen the problem is part of the solution.

 

The only probelm with self defense weapons is you will never know how you will react to that situation until put in it. Some women have the reaction to scream, kick, bite, and claw for their life - others have what we survivors call a 'frozen' reaction in which you become so paraplyzed with fear you literally can't do anything - scream, kick, bite, or claw. MANY people view the latter reaction as a 'well, you didn't fight them back' reaction when in fact, it's a very normal response to the situation. I froze as a child. I was molested in my own house one ROOM away from my mother and I never once cried out when I was in that situation - the fear that grips you is beyond words.

 

This is why personal protection will not always help, nor always go as far as you like it. I carry pepper spray around with me and I have taken self defense classes as part of my healing journey but I can still not say with 100% that I would be bale to use those 2 things if put in the same situation.

[OptomisticGirl]

 

If we want the social environment to change, I dare say it will be up to women to change it.

 

In a backhand way, this is still blaming the victim. The woman has to make the change, the woman has to not drink - now, while I take my own personal measures of safety when out and about, I think it says something if your own sex as a male doesn't take charge of making change either. There are plenty of undrunk men in those clubs who could speak up for those women or even the owners - this is were we talk about raising our men better. Not to try to stop them from being those men who rape but to those who are witness to it. All it takes is ONE person to speak up.

[Lonewing]

I agree with this, but family upbringing and perhaps even genetics are possible reasons that people become rapists. I think there is only so much that education can do. Still, like carrying a form of self defense, anything that could lessen the problem is part of the solution.

 

And I should add that culture may also influence actions. I remember studying popular media in India in one of my classes, and we watched a video in which many Indian men expressed their enjoyment of rape focused movies, and that if they saw a woman being raped they would help the rapist to rape her further. Now, this isn't everyone, but again culture and genetics could be a reason, and it's hard to teach against those things.

 

It's not genetics. I've read too many studies now where genetics has been ruled out where before a sexist approach was taken. It's entirely about upbringing and about social relativity.

 

If you are in a culture where rape is glorified, then it will happen and often.

If you live in a culture where date rape is glorified, it will happen and often.

If you live in a culture where sex determines legal status, rape will happen.

If you live in a culture where sex can determine the outcome of legal proceedings, rape will happen.

If you live in a culture where there is a lot of sexist-based anger, rape will happen and it will happen often.

 

These are the things we MUST change if we wish to change the rape trend. Right now, I'm afraid the forecast is not so bright, and I base this on the growing number of men who have relationship issues with women. I also base this on the growing number of men who refuse to get married or want nothing to do with such, or have a "Ms. Right Now" and a "Ms. NowandLater" while searching for "Miss Perfect 10 Right." the divorce rates have not been decreasing either, and with each divorce, you add one more disgruntled person to the pot - male or female. And then we have the large number of single males who have very low dateablity prospects. All in all, these trends are not trends that go towards a social culture where there is greater equality or more respect given than is recieved.

 

Here's the first place we can start: we must remove the sexist element from how we raise our children. Pick up a copy of "The Truth about Boys and Girls" to see what I mean. Boys do not automatically assume the workshop role while girls automatically assume the kitchen role. These decisions are all based upon what tkids are told about the toys - "these are boy toys; these are girl toys." From that moment forth, sexism starts. If a person is not raised like this, then you will end up with a boy or girl who is as equally comfortable playing house with barbies as playing with a box of Transformers and GI Joes.

 

From there it is a matter of getting mothers and fathers to throughly reinforce the idea of respect for our fellow human beings.

 

This produces an individual who is not willing to take more from the pot than is their fair share, and further, a person willing to consider the other person as an equal partner.

 

Regardless, I do not think it will Ever be safe for a woman to walk alone in the dark, even after you remove the element of Rape as Control from the equation. As long as females have vaginas, but do not desire having anything in them, there is a dispartiy of supply and demand. As ugly as this is to say. Because to the best of my knowledge, as soon as a boy understands what his penis is and where it goes and how it feels, his position goes to "Yes, I'm ALWAYS ready, even when I'm not ready!" So this means there will always be a man out there who isn't getting any, hence the beginning of the Demand. It may be possible to reduce this demand by legalizing prostitution and then giving sex stamps to the under-privileged, but even so, just as people are still going hungry, there will still be people going without.

 

So then, "Women: Don't get raped" really is the most effective campaign to prevent rape.

[duke nukem]

I'm not refuting what you have said about studies you have seen, but do you know where to find them? I'm interested to see what research says.

 

 

I feel that culture has a large part to do with it, tying into respect. There is just no respect for one another these days. Rape, divorce, really all relationship areas between men and women are becoming progressively worse it seems, and I'm sure a good amount of that has to do with the demoralization of society. I don't mean gays getting married or any of that nonsense line of thought. But more so how prevalent sex is in our society, the way it is sold to kids at a young age. Sex is not a bad thing, but used or seen the wrong way leads to problems, as with anything.

 

 

And self control as well. Greed. Really just the degeneration of society as a whole is a large problem. And no, this isn't a religious issue, it all really ties into respect like I said.

 

And I don't know how much legalizing prostitution would help if rape is more often a case of displaying dominance vs sexual pleasure. Of course if someone has a statistic given for why people rape, say power vs sex, please share.

[duke nukem]

I understand that. Natural instinct is to freeze in hopes that the predator thinks you are unfit to consume. Unfortunately as it is now, that works against us in protecting ourselves from our own species.

 

 

I never said self defense items are fool proof or the only answer, but anything to help women protect themselves is a good thing to have in case there is no immediate help. Give at least some women a fighting chance.

[PhilliesFan001]

In a backhand way, this is still blaming the victim. The woman has to make the change, the woman has to not drink - now, while I take my own personal measures of safety when out and about, I think it says something if your own sex as a male doesn't take charge of making change either. There are plenty of undrunk men in those clubs who could speak up for those women or even the owners - this is were we talk about raising our men better. Not to try to stop them from being those men who rape but to those who are witness to it. All it takes is ONE person to speak up.

 

Exactly.

 

And it's not entirely accurate to assume that the legalization of prostitution or making sex more readily available will solve the rape problem. Again, rape is rarely just about sexual desire and gratification. It obviously varies from rapist to rapist, but there are the elements of power and sadism that can't be ignored. If lack of sex was the main motivator behind rapes, then why do you see popular, good looking young men who rape? Surely sex is available to them if they desire it. Keeping the male population sexually satisfied really isn't going to do much because you're only looking at one dimension of the crime. It's as useless as telling women to dress more conservatively - that will do very little to help the epidemic.

 

As was said before - men are raped, women are raped, ugly people are raped, children are raped, the elderly and mentally disabled and physically handicapped are raped. People use rape as a weapon in times of war. People use rape as torture. It is NOT just about wanting to get off and grabbing the first woman you see on the street. It is NOT about dressing like a sl*t and having it coming to you. The mental processes behind rape are so much more complex than that.

 

Rape is considered a crime of violence for a reason. Most rapists crave that feeling of power over another person - others are considered the "angry rapists" that seek to humiliate and degrade their victims. Then there are the people who seek out rape for sexual gratification - BUT - this is often linked to sadism. Think about it: if you're a horny guy and you're with a girl who is kicking and screaming or crying or passed out, how turned on are you going to be? Probably not very, unless you get off on causing emotional/physical pain. In these cases, the sexual desires are directly linked to sadistic feelings, not just horniness. Legalization of prostitution would do nothing for this reason - your average man won't be turned on by some poor girl desperately trying to fight him off. Sadists who seek that kind of aggression and link pain to eroticism won't be satisfied by paying for sex with a willing prostitute. They need to feel the real desperation, and fear, and humiliation.

 

A lot of studies conducting on male rapists show that the men in these situations feel a real anger toward women - maybe because of bad family dynamics or childhood experiences, or rejection from the opposite sex - they hate women, they don't respect them, and rape is a way to dominate.

 

Poverty is another risk factor both for being a rapist and rape victim. In low socioeconomic areas where people attain very little success, "manliness" is measured in a more misogynistic way - again, dominating your woman. A lot of men in these scenarios may feel less masculine because they're unable to provide for themselves or their families economically, so they seek out other ways to prove their dominance.

 

And yes obviously culture has a lot to do with it - in societies where there is a great discrepancy between the rights of men and women, or where women are seen as objects, you're going to see more rape. And that happens in the US plenty, no matter how equal we like to believe we are.

 

Personally I think instead of telling women to cover up their boobs, you need to look at the previously mentioned factors and take that into account. The problem is hardly ever with the victim - you need to look at the real reasons men rape and take the "uncontrollable lust" out of the argument because that has very little to do with it. Look at the sadists, the men in poverty, the men with a need for control, the men with real anger and hatred toward women. These are the men who rape. Look at the frat boys who grow up with an over inflated male ego, in a testosterone and liquor charged environment, with a need to prove themselves to the group by exercising dominance over women. I think misogyny plays a huge role in rape.

 

If you want to take it a step further, it might be good to read up on male socialization regarding sexuality. They're taught that they are supposed to be in charge, aggressive, dominant, because that is how you assert your masculinity. The more sexual prowess you have, the manlier you are. And who cares if the woman says no, she'll back down eventually. You see it all the time in movies and on TV, the man bugging the woman for sex, she refuses, he persists until she gives in. And often it's implied that when women say "No" they really are just playing coy and want the man to keep "chasing" it. That's why you hear so many rapists after the fact say "Well I knew she really wanted it, she was just playing shy."

 

And then there's the idea we're all raised with that men have these absurdly uncontrollably high sex drives and it's in their nature to want to spread their seed and blah blah blah. The fact is we all have internal, primal sexual drives, but this excuse doesn't cut it - it's the 21st century and we all can exercise self control. If men were so hopelessly controlled by their libidos, more men would be rapists. We're all gender socialized from an early age - we associate certain things with being a man and being a woman, and sex is something you associate with men. It's almost like a "boys will be boys" mentality. This is where the argument that a woman needs to dress in less revealing clothes comes from - god forbid the sl*tty woman tempt the always horny man! It's just not the case. So, telling women to dress differently is not the solution.

 

Lord that was all over the place. sorry!

 

***For all the above obviously I'm just talking about male-on-female rape. To be honest I don't know much about motivating factors in female-on-male rape.

[duke nukem]

For female on male rape, I'm not sure if I personally have ever heard of a case (other than Law & Order). I'm not saying it doesn't happen or couldn't happen, I just truly never heard of one.

 

I think one of the problems for trying such a case would be current social stigmas, and that "all men like sex so it wouldn't be rape", or that a man would have to be aroused to be raped, which wouldn't be the case (for this point I'm ignoring sodomy). Just because a man were to have an erection would not mean he was willing, it's the body's response to stimuli. That would be akin to saying because a woman became wet during an attack, she obviously wanted it. Clearly that is not the case.

[PhilliesFan001]

For female on male rape, I'm not sure if I personally have ever heard of a case (other than Law & Order). I'm not saying it doesn't happen or couldn't happen, I just truly never heard of one.

 

I think one of the problems for trying such a case would be current social stigmas, and that "all men like sex so it wouldn't be rape", or that a man would have to be aroused to be raped, which wouldn't be the case (for this point I'm ignoring sodomy). Just because a man were to have an erection would not mean he was willing, it's the body's response to stimuli. That would be akin to saying because a woman became wet during an attack, she obviously wanted it. Clearly that is not the case.

 

Yep, that's another societal attitude that needs to change and why male rape is so under reported. It's like I mentioned above, we're conditioned to believe that men are sex fiends so who WOULDNT want a woman forcing themselves on you? People completely ignore the fact that forced sex is not fun or sexy or hot - it's embarrassing and frightening and degrading and no man on earth wants to feel that way. And the shame that comes after being raped by a woman - I can only imagine. You have to worry about your male friends making fun of you, telling you you're probably gay if you didn't like it, etc. And I know a few women who believe men can't be raped - they're just as ignorant and contributing to the problem for these male victims.

 

I personally have never met a man who claims a woman raped him (unless you count men who were molested as children), but I would guess that even if I did know somebody, they would never admit it out loud. And that's a real shame - there are definitely men out there who have been violated and never came forward, and they're not receiving the post-trauma help that they need. We as a society really need to change the way we view this crime, both men and women. My above post was all about male perpetrators and that is a HUGE part of the problem, but not nearly all of it. Women need to change their attitudes (note, not clothing) as well.

[Lonewing]

In a backhand way, this is still blaming the victim. The woman has to make the change, the woman has to not drink - now, while I take my own personal measures of safety when out and about, I think it says something if your own sex as a male doesn't take charge of making change either. There are plenty of undrunk men in those clubs who could speak up for those women or even the owners - this is were we talk about raising our men better. Not to try to stop them from being those men who rape but to those who are witness to it. All it takes is ONE person to speak up.

 

You may drink, and in good company, you may drink as much as you want. If you're with a man you want to have sex with when you're sober, you can drink long past the point of passing out.

 

But you can't go out and be silly stupid drunk in a crowd of strangers. That's a recipe for getting bad things coming your way. It's like swimming in shark infested waters, or a river full of pihrana, or going on a nature hike in africa without a car, an elephant gun, and a canteen. No matter how many good men there are in that crowd, those who are devious will use your disadvantage to their advantage. It starts with giving you that drink, getting you to dance, showing you a good time,and then leaving with you out the door. And guess what: the good guys are going to let you go, especially if the whole time you're saying you want to go with them.

 

I used to go to a club where indeed, there was a very strong bond between the regulars. It was for this reason why so many girls when there; it was a safe place to be. In this place, the men and the women were indeed on the same page, and you really could tell when there were idiots in the place. They'd touch or hit or smack a girl, and in about three seconds they'd be hauled out the door by three guys, with another five waiting to meet them out front. But that place was special; this is not true in very many places.

 

At some point you have to grow up and make smart decisions - the social safety net WILL NOT always be there for you if you decide to be stupid or otherwise engage in behavior that is condusive to bad outcomes. In case you haven't noticed, the male sex is not united. We are not a group you can ask to do anything, because we are entirely autonomous, and serve only the sovereignty we choose for ourselves.

 

No matter how many supermans, batmans, spidermand you make, we will never be in all places and at all times. You do not have a little beeper on your body that starts beeping like a homing device when you are in trouble - there's no communication device here that will call Superman to the room when you realize this pretty boy who just wants a little fun actually means he wants to have sex, now, Tonight. Ultimatley, it is up to you where you go and when you go.

 

One of the last nights that I went out to a club in my old life before this life I have now [the life back with my ex] there was this night at the club where there was a series of perhaps 5 or 8 gunshots in the alley between this club and that club. Five peope ran out of the alley, four in one direction and the fifth in the direction of the parking lot. When the police arrived, they were somber. When the ambulance arrived, two paramedics calmly walked into the aisle, and then five minutes later came back out, got in their ambulance and drove away...without turning on their lights or sirens. That night, someobody's safety net failed - becasue they did something stupid that got them in trouble at the wrong time with the wrong people. Was it his fault that he died? Of course not, but had he never gone there, he would still be alive.

 

ONE person speaks up, they get shot down.

 

If you want to end this game, you as a woman and as womenw ill need to stop patronizing these sorts fo affairs. The whole reason all the boys are in these clubs, is because you are there getting drunk. The only reason you're getting drunk on $100 or $300 a night tabs is because the boys are buying your drinks. Yes, it's GREAT to go out dressed like you're a million bucks and getting that validation and attention, and it's a great feeling to dance - which again, really is about getting more attention no matter how you dress the idea up - it's a self esteem trip, I'm sure, to know that all these guys looking at you WANT you - but in the end, you are going to have to decide how to change this situation. From my experience, as soon as the girls stop showing up, the party drops.

 

There is no license to be stupid.

[PhilliesFan001]

Again, you're just assuming that rape is born out of some kind of party atmosphere and you're completely ignoring the underlying causes which have nothing to do with how a woman dresses or the clubs she goes to. There are women who wear barely anything and go out drinking and are never raped once in their life. Drinks don't cause rape, short skirts don't cause rape, the psychological mechanisms in the rapists' minds do.