dragon lady Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Bingo, and I do not want to give medicine to my child which hasn't been thoroughly tested. The safety and efficacy have been shown in the segment of the population that the trials were conducted on, but I see where you're coming from. Hopefully in a few years it will be shown to be safe in the long-term and more people will trust it. When it comes to the known benefits & safety of other vaccines, I don't even know what to say. This little guy says it as best as I can --> Link to comment
doyathink Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Cancer can be cured. There are many different types of cancers with different prognosis's and many have treatments that can effectively get rid of cancer. There are rare diseases that doctors don't know much about, but there are many common ones that can be easily cured. I'm am sorry about what happened to your mother, but it is no reason to be cynical of the whole medical profession as a whole. The advances in medical science have cured many fatal diseases that we would have experienced in the past. We don't have to worry about getting smallpox anymore and infections that used to kill people in the past can be cured by taking a pill now. Are you kidding me? we dont have to worry about smallpox anymore? This isn't a vaccination that is given out anymore. Around here anyway. And who's to say someone wouldn't bring it back from a 3rd world country and....BAM...we have a vicious outbreak. I'm not foolish enough to think medicine doesn't have it's place. I know it does. But I think the world believe too highly in it. Link to comment
Jeen Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 How do vaccines work? link removed Link to comment
annie24 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 LOL I dont see why tho. Why cant we cure cancer...we can do sooo many things that seemed impossible. Sorry to go ot I want to trust these ppl 100%. I really do...but when my mother goes seriously in debt to find out why she's breaking out in something like hives (best way to described it sorry) for YEARS, and no doctor can figure out what it is...then my faith weakens. And not just that, but many things that happen and they cant seem to figure out what it is....but hey, they've seen it before. lol And why is it we can buy some of these drugs from Mexico, and Canada for pennies...when they cost us a fortune over here? I'm also not sold on all of these vaccines being 'safe'. well, the basic reason why cancer is a lot harder to cure than viral or bacterial diseases is because bacteria and viruses are very different from our cells, to how they 'look' on the outside to our body (their cell membranes) and how they function. On the other hand, the human immune system is designed to distinguish self vs. non-self. And cancer cells are really our own cells "gone out of control" (to put it simply). thus, it's harder for our own bodies to recognize one of our own bad cells vs. a bacterial invader. obviously, there are exceptions to this rule, but this is the general reason why cancer is tricky. i think that the trend will be in the next 15-20 years to see a lot more 'personalized' cancer treatments using gene therapy and other treatments specific to the patient. it might work a lot better than the general chemotherapy and radiation treatments of the last several decades. a lot of what you pay for when buying drugs is not the physical cost to make that pill, but rather, the reasearch that went into making that pill, and the 99 other drugs/projects that were tried, but never made it on the market. it's easy enough for some semi-competent organic chemists in china to synthesize a compound in a lab, and they can produce it for a few pennies. but their lab wasn't the one who poured in all the time and effort into developing and testing it and the 99 other projects that didn't work. Link to comment
arsenal Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 A very big reason why medical care is so expensive here is because of the malpractice suits. Try to sue someone in mexico over how a certain medicine made you fat. They'd laugh at you. It has more to do with that the US allows drug manufacturers who develop a drug to have a monopoly on production for a period of time so that they can cover the costs for research and development. Other countries have less strict laws on drug patents, which allows generic manufacturers to produce the drugs, lowering the prices. Link to comment
waveseer Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The safety and efficacy have been shown in the segment of the population that the trials were conducted on, but I see where you're coming from. Hopefully in a few years it will be shown to be safe in the long-term and more people will trust it. When it comes to the known benefits & safety of other vaccines, I don't even know what to say. This little guy says it as best as I can --> That's exactly right, I am buying time before I have my female child immunized for hpv. I am probably never going to ask my teenage son to be immunized because it will be "too late" by the time all the post market data is in. As far as the immunizations which have been around for decades, I have 'em and so do my children. Link to comment
hossman Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Are you kidding me? we dont have to worry about smallpox anymore? Smallpox has been completely irradicated from the natural world however it still exists under lock and key in highly guarded vaults. It's impossible or statistically extremely improbably that we will ever see smallpox occur naturally, however if for example terrorists could gain access to those stored supplies there could conceivably be an outbreak due intentional human causes. Link to comment
dragon lady Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Are you kidding me? we dont have to worry about smallpox anymore? This isn't a vaccination that is given out anymore. Around here anyway. And who's to say someone wouldn't bring it back from a 3rd world country and....BAM...we have a vicious outbreak. I'm not foolish enough to think medicine doesn't have it's place. I know it does. But I think the world believe too highly in it. Smallpox was eradicated because of the vaccine. The last case was in 1978 in England from a medical lab. If that's not a success story, I dunno what is. Link to comment
annie24 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Smallpox has been completely irradicated from the natural world however it still exists under lock and key in highly guarded vaults. It's impossible or statistically extremely improbably that we will ever see smallpox occur naturally, however if for example terrorists could gain access to those stored supplies there could conceivably be an outbreak due intentional human causes. yes, and there is discussion of permanently erradicating the last remaining smallpox stored in laboratory freezers. we will see what happens... Link to comment
Honey Pumpkin Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I work for a medical organisation in the UK, and I would like to state again, clearly, that the young woman who died after her HPV vaccination did NOT die because of the vaccination. She had a massive cancerous tumour in her chest which killed her and was completely unrelated to the vaccination. The timing made it seem as though it was related, and therefore as usual the media got hysterical (and wrong). Incidentally - the doctor who first suggested there was a link between MMR vaccine and autism, which has now been completely disproved, has been struck off (disbarred) from practising because of his dangerously stupid hypothesis. And yet millions of parents thought twice about having their children vaccinated against killer measles, mumps and rubella because of bad science. And children did die because of that decision. Interesting debate. I am on the side of vaccines, I cannot see how you can't be to be honest. Link to comment
arsenal Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Are you kidding me? we dont have to worry about smallpox anymore? This isn't a vaccination that is given out anymore. Around here anyway. And who's to say someone wouldn't bring it back from a 3rd world country and....BAM...we have a vicious outbreak. I'm not foolish enough to think medicine doesn't have it's place. I know it does. But I think the world believe too highly in it. That is because the vaccination for smallpox has been so effective, that they successfully eliminated the virus in the wild. There is no need for the vaccine because there isn't a risk of getting the virus anymore. Link to comment
Honey Pumpkin Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Smallpox now only exists in a cupboard somewhere! It's been eradicated by, erm, yeah, vaccines! My friend's father caught polio after the second world war - my mother said there were huge scares about it back in the fifties. Another horrendous disease: gone because of vaccines. Link to comment
dragon lady Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 That's exactly right, I am buying time before I have my female child immunized for hpv. I am probably never going to ask my teenage son to be immunized because it will be "too late" by the time all the post market data is in. As far as the immunizations which have been around for decades, I have 'em and so do my children. I don't think there is anything unreasonable about what you've just said. Link to comment
IphigeniaSaysHi Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Great points; it truly is an interesting topic. Link to comment
IphigeniaSaysHi Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 That's exactly right, I am buying time before I have my female child immunized for hpv. I am probably never going to ask my teenage son to be immunized because it will be "too late" by the time all the post market data is in. As far as the immunizations which have been around for decades, I have 'em and so do my children. I second what DL said. 10 years old is likely too young to really panic and rush into the vaccine. Link to comment
doyathink Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Smallpox has been completely irradicated from the natural world however it still exists under lock and key in highly guarded vaults. I was going to hit on that in my first post, but I didnt want this to turn into a 'political' thing....so I said it the way I did for a reason lol. Link to comment
doyathink Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Smallpox was eradicated because of the vaccine. The last case was in 1978 in England from a medical lab. If that's not a success story, I dunno what is. It's still out there hun, and it IS accessible. Link to comment
dragon lady Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 It's still out there hun, and it IS accessible. I know it's locked away in labs. That says nothing about the success of the vaccine. Link to comment
tiredofvampires Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Here is an excerpt from a long article with many prestigious peer-review medical journal bibliographic citations, for anyone who is interested: The clinical evidence for vaccinations is their ability to stimulate antibody production in the recipient, a fact which is not disputed. What is not clear, however, is whether or not such antibody production constitutes immunity. For example, agamma globulin-anemic children are incapable of producing antibodies, yet they recover from infectious diseases almost as quickly as other children.[31] Furthermore, a study published by the British Medical Council in 1950 during a diphtheria epidemic concluded that there was no relationship between antibody count and disease incidence; researchers found resistant people with extremely low antibody counts and sick people with high counts. [32] Natural immunization is a complex phenomenon involving many organs and systems; it cannot be fully replicated by the artificial stimulation of antibody production. (bold added by me) Research also indicates that vaccination commits immune cells to the specific antigens involved in the vaccine, rendering them incapable of reacting to other infections. Our immunological reserve may thus actually be reduced, causing a generally lowered resistance. [33] Another component of immunization theory is "herd immunity," which states that when enough people in a community are immunized, all are protected. As Myth #2 revealed, there are many documented instances showing just the opposite--fully vaccinated populations do contract diseases; with measles, this actually seems to be the direct result of high vaccination rates.[19] A Minnesota state epidemiologist concluded that the Hib vaccine increases the risk of illness when a study revealed that vaccinated children were five times more likely to contract meningitis than unvaccinated children. Carefully selected epidemiological studies are yet another justification for vaccination programs. However, many of these may not be legitimate sources from which to draw conclusions about vaccine effectiveness. For example, if 100 people are vaccinated and 5 contract the disease, the vaccine is declared to be 95% effective. But if only 10 of the 100 were actually exposed to the disease, then the vaccine was really only 50% effective. Since no one is willing to directly expose an entire population to disease--even a fully vaccinated one--vaccine effectiveness rates may not indicate a vaccine's true effectiveness. Yet another surprising concern about immunization practice is its assumption that all children, regardless of age, are virtually the same. An 8 pound 2 month old receives the same dosage as a 40 pound five year old. Infants with immature, undeveloped immune systems may receive five or more times the dosage (relative to body weight) as older children. For the full article: link removed There are experts who are M.D.'s and Ph.D.s whose science is as impeccable on this matter as those in the mainstream. Link to comment
tiredofvampires Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 And one more, on polio: Six New England states reported increases in polio one year after the Salk vaccine was introduced, ranging from more than doubling in Vermont to Massachusetts' astounding increase of 642%. In 1959, 77.5% of Massachusetts' paralytic cases had received 3 doses of IPV (injected polio vaccine). During 1962 U.S. Congressional hearings, Dr. Bernard Greenberg, head of the Dept. of Biostatistics for the University of North Carolina School of Public Health, testified that not only did the cases of polio increase substantially after mandatory vaccinations (50% increase from 1957 to 1958, 80% increase from 1958 to 1959), but that the statistics were manipulated by the Public Health Service to give the opposite impression.[39] According to researcher-author Dr. Viera Scheibner, 90% of polio cases were eliminated from statistics by health authorities' redefinition of the disease when the vaccine was introduced, while in reality the Salk vaccine was continuing to cause paralytic polio in several countries at a time when there were no epidemics being caused by the wild virus. For example, in the U.S., thousands of cases of viral and aseptic meningitis are reported each year--these were routinely diagnosed as polio before the Salk vaccine; the number of cases needed to declare an epidemic was raised from 20 to 35; and the requirement for inclusion in paralysis statistics was changed from symptoms for 24 hours to symptoms for 60 days; it is no wonder that polio decreased radically after vaccines--at least on paper. In 1985, the CDC reported that 87% of the cases of polio in the U.S. between 1973 and 1983 were caused by the vaccine, and later declared that all but a few imported cases since were caused by the vaccine--and most of the imported cases occurred in fully immunized individuals. Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testified before a Senate subcommittee that nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused by the oral polio vaccine. (bold added by me). At a workshop on polio vaccines sponsored by the Institute of Medicine and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Dr. Samuel Katz of Duke University cited the estimated 8-10 annual U.S. cases of vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP) in people who have taken the oral polio vaccine, and the [four year] absence of wild polio from the western hemisphere. Jessica Scheer of the National Rehabilitation Hospital Research Center in Washington, D.C., pointed out that most parents are unaware that polio vaccination in this country entails "a small number of human sacrifices each year." Compounding this contradiction are low adverse event reporting and the NVIC's experiences with confirming and correcting misdiagnoses of vaccine reactions, which suggest that the actual number of VAPP "sacrifices" may be many times higher than the number cited by the CDC. Link to comment
IphigeniaSaysHi Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Do you feel those aforementioned scientists would urge the public cessation of immunization or are they just pointing out the flaws (which of course some exist) in the armor of what many claim is a fail safe practice? Link to comment
Seraphim Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Helping 3rd world countries with their infastructure and giving them cleaning water and living spaces and access to soap and water would probably help the people more than vaccines ever could. Help them build a cleaner country. That costs more money however than giving a vaccine so they give vaccines instead. Link to comment
IphigeniaSaysHi Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 [/b] Alleluia.... I thought you said scientists lie and you don't listen to them. Link to comment
Seraphim Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I thought you said scientists lie and you don't listen to them. No, I didn't. If you read I said I agree with SOME scientists. I do not agree with everything MAINSTREAM medicine tells me. Link to comment
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