And the point is?

[Cognitive_Canine]

lol nonsensical jargon. you die...love dies. People move on. you rot and are forgotten.

 

Many ancient persons believed in 3 deaths.

 

The actual death (the one our culture recognizes).

 

When the body is removed from the public.

 

And when the person is forgotten.

 

In a lot of cultured a person can never truly die if they lead a good life and touch a lot of people.

[waveseer]

Many ancient persons believed in 3 deaths.

 

The actual death (the one our culture recognizes).

 

When the body is removed from the public.

 

And when the person is forgotten.

 

In a lot of cultured a person can never truly die.

 

I was just talking about this yesterday, how when someone you know well dies the only thing that really changes is you don't see them in the flesh anymore. All other aspects of them remain the same.

[Cognitive_Canine]

I was just talking about this yesterday, how when someone you know well dies the only thing that really changes is you don't see them in the flesh anymore. All other aspects of them remain the same.

 

This is true.

 

The fact that they are no longer there can never detract from the fact that they once were. The impact a person can have can last centuries later.

 

Almost all hunter gatherer tribes (ones who have never even contacted each other) developed the idea of ancestor worship and the afterlife. Where if you forgot your loved ones, they wouldn't watch over you. And, if you remembered them, theyd manipulate things in the spirit world to have positive effects in the real world. That was one of the more interesting things I found in anthropology.

[Zeitgeist]

Atomicitica,

I was trying to reply earlier, but everything I wrote sounded like bull * * * * , even to me. That I believe it doesn't really matter because I know how you'd see it. Because we've all been there. And your situation really isn't any different than anyone else who has been there. We all at some point (several points) ask ourselves the question, "What's the point?". When we can't come up with a satisfactory answer, we conclude it's because there isn't one. And we get angry/sad/despondent when we "realize" this truth. However, we make a very big assumption there. We assume that there must be a point, otherwise life is not worth living.

 

Maybe you're right. Maybe there isn't a point - not in any real tangible factual sense. However, so what? Maybe it's stupid that some of us find meaning in listening to obscure bands. Maybe it's stupid that some of us find meaning in traveling and seeing new places. Maybe it's stupid that some of us find meaning in watching The Bachelor (not me, just so we're clear). But so what? If it helps you find experience even the slightest bit of joy, why do you care if it's stupid in the grand scheme of things?

 

I was thinking about this today. There are millions of living species on Earth. And yet, humans are the only species that I can think of that commit suicide. Most other animals on earth are too busy surviving day to day to be able to ponder their own existence and its purpose. Without a sense of purpose, do we only want to live when others threaten to take it away?

 

We fight so hard for control only over what's uncontrollable. It's another way of saying, we want what we can't have. Gotta be one of the most common themes on ENA, right? You could apply it probably every other thread. I think the same thing applies here. If life was precarious and you could die at any moment, I'd wager you wouldn't want to take your own life. But life is relatively safe for most of us. So we stop worrying about it. We take it for granted. We worry other things, like finding a point. You can't find a point, so that's what you want. A point; the meaning of life. It's almost like we're built to find SOMETHING wrong, so that we can fight for it.

 

Well, now you've got it. Something IS wrong. So fight it. Like all the rest of us 6.8 billion people. And in that struggle, you might discover the point. No matter how much better you think others might have it, we're in the same spot as you. The difference is that we're fighting it because in many aspects, that is the point. Or at least it gives us the ability to believe there is one.

 

I hope you are still with us, because I'd like to hear more about your point of view.

[Atomicitica]

Your logic is sound. I based mine on the assumption that there was a point to be found and that a point was of importance. Yours in the best counter arguments so far. Kudos.

[Atomicitica]

I can't argue much with that last one. So truth be told...I'm not exactly suicidal at the moment but i have had suicidal thoughts for quite some time. Especially since i found out i was HIV positive and Lost my job 2 months ago thus putting a pause to my college courses. That combined with a host of other problems has gotten me down and wondering what the point is to life. Everyone's argument was the point was to be happy, to serve each other to have fun, to leave a legacy, to make a difference, to enjoy every moment, etc. Zeitgeists argument is simple. There may just simply be no point and its ok. Because even without god we're in the same situation as every other content animals on earth but our brain size has turned against us and pushes us into depression. Maybe the point is to abide our survival instinct and not give into this "design flaw" of our cognitive thought process. End line.

[Zeitgeist]

Your logic is sound. I based mine on the assumption that there was a point to be found and that a point was of importance. Yours in the best counter arguments so far. Kudos.

I had the day off today. Know what I did? I walked the dog and watched him being overjoyed to simply roll in the wet grass. How stupid, I said to myself. And yet, how absolutely wonderful that he can find such happiness in doing something so insignificant.

 

Then I came home and I took a bath. Because that relaxes me. Then I cooked a nice meal. Because it would taste good and my body deserves it. Made myself a cup of hot tea. Because it's cloudy out and tea warms me up. Watched "The Shawshank Redemption" for the gazillionth time. Because the ending always makes me feel good. Called up an old friend who I haven't talked to in over 10 months (haven't seen her in over 5 years) to wish her a happy birthday even though she forgot mine this year. She wasn't there, so I just left a voicemail. Will she call back? Don't know, don't care. Why did I do it? Because I always do and sometimes, small gestures matter to other people. Even if you have to make a million of them. If just one keeps a connection alive, why not do it? Was there a point to any of this? No, absolutely not. They all just made me feel good in one small way or another.

 

I didn't save the world. I didn't find the cure for cancer. I didn't end a war. I didn't make a million bucks. I didn't do anything remotely close to what anyone here would consider "important" or "meaningful". This thread discussion is probably the most "meaningful" thing in my day. And while I sincerely appreciate your validation, will this "meaningful" discussion make either of us happy or change our lives? Probably not. Maybe my dog understands something better than us humans. That maybe it's the "stupid" and "pointless" things in life that *can* bring us happiness. Hell, maybe it's the only thing that can bring us any happiness.

[tiredofvampires]

I would like to add something, on the heels of Zeitgeist, who I feel has very eloquently stated one of the guiding principles in my own life. Even though you may already have your answer, Atomicitica, and I be late to this thread.

 

One doesn't really need to ask why all this is here, and why it is what it is. There is no more value to that than in trying to find your tail, if you are a cat chasing it.

 

The only provable thing to me is that it IS here, as it is. That's the stark reality.

 

And as it is, there are all the bad things you described -- poverty, illiteracy, abuse, ignorance, etc. Equally, though, since this be the case and isn't going away any time soon, it seems to me that one might develop abilities to help at least alleviate this suffering that exists and therefore counteract it. This seems something to do with one's time, since one happens to be here. What will it amount to in the grand scheme? Who knows, who cares. I'm not looking for a reward anywhere, and what it's all about is not my concern. But each person you help to feel a bit less hurt, right here, right now, seems a little more constructive use of matter than just lying in the cold ground. All I know is that it feels good to be a part of alleviating someone's pain and to observe that they feel better, too.

 

When you are dead, there is no point either. So if it's between staying alive with no point -- yet in this short period of time doing something in your small corner to make someone(s) feel better -- versus being completely inert with no point, it seems to me that it's better to stay alive. Do you have anything better to do, dead?

 

As someone who is affected daily by a painful health condition, I've come to this, that fighting just for the sake of the fight, and bringing a semblance of my resources to those who need a hand in this inevitable state of affairs, gives me a lot to keep busy with until my end.

[CynicalGuitarist]

Ah yes, existential despair; a feeling I know all too well. You are correct in most of your qualms... the late great comedian Bill Hicks had a lot of misanthropic rants similar to this, yet he also said this at the end of one of his shows:

 

"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: "Is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people...

 

...it's just a ride and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one."

 

I've said things similar to you (some of the ENAers here know of my rants) and saw no point in anything; part of me still feels that way. However, a while ago, I had an epiphany; if my life is nothing but a crappy melodramatic tragicomedy, then I'm gonna make it the best damn one "the gods" have ever seen. Even though they haven't expressed it in such a way, all kinds of people do this and I look up to them; Prince, Bill Gates, Brad Pitt, Rivers Cuomo, Woody Allen, Cheech and Chong, Tim Leary, William Hung... the list goes on and on. Even the convenience store clerk who gets customer complaints all day yet still manages to have a smile on his face does it in his own way.

 

Though I'm not religious, nor atheist, I've wished for there to be nothing after my existence. Yet, all of our lives are insignificant in a big way. The universe is extremely vast, with millions of galaxies, and our own milky way is much larger than the richest, strongest, most powerful men alive. We all like to think we're so much better even than our own mother earth and the creatures we share the planet with just 'cause we look at OUR OWN accomplishments. There's all kinds of people out there who swear they've found the meaning of life and the governments of the world who coerce others into their wills whether with guns or a paycheck. That's why we have an abundance of the very conveniences that keep us in control. We humans are nothing more than a bunch of rebellious teenagers who've turned our backs on mother earth and father time. I know I haven't lived a great life and I'm not a great person, but I'm learning to try my best because I believe in reincarnation (feel free to disagree with me) and I believe that I'm paying for things I perhaps did in my past life with some of my misfortunes and shortcomings of this one. The cycle's gonna continue, so I've decided to live life the best I can 'cause I don't know what life lies beyond this one.

 

Now I don't know where I'm going with all this, but I think you should relax a bit more. Maybe it is all insignificant (ironically, in my spiritual beliefs it is), so why not make a black comedy out of it? If there's something you wanna do that doesn't interfere with another's life, I say go for it. It's all a balancing act; not even I have got that quite down yet. Hang in there; perhaps you should watch some George Carlin... maybe give you a different perspective on all this.

 

Hang in there, buddy.

[DropToZero]

LOL another sheep telling me I don't' know what I'm thinking because I don't refer to the book of Jewish myths. Its religious people like you that have ruined the world with your nonsensical jargon. And on top of that saying I have a puny mind because I don't see the world through your sheep eyes. You will open your mouth and eat anything fed to you. You do little thinking for yourself and instead you live in a world of illusion and wishful thinking....and then like any good religious person you berate another person who just happens to not believe in your silly fake weak hypocritical god. I only wish when i blow my brains out the back of my skull that you were there to witness the brain matter splattering over your cow face.

 

Sadly... you still argue, and in the end, you're only shooting off your wings.

 

Would you believe me if I told you a year ago, I was in your EXACT position? Would you believe me if I told you... I was probably worse... why? because I wouldn't have posted it on here that I was about to kill myself... I have a little less humility than that. ...I thought daily about slamming my car into the cement walls along the highway each day on my way to work... because there was no point to what I was doing day in and day out and there was no meaning to my life. Would you believe me again if I told you I grew up in the church? ... a Methodist one to be exact, since I was 9 I didn't miss a day of church until I was 18 when I quit going... why? because I was finally an "adult" due to US law and my parents didn't force me to go any longer. Would you believe me even further if I told you I grew up in church, but I was an agnostic, and by the time I was 2 years out of HS I was an atheist? And I could go on much further... I used to say the exact same things you did, don't even tell me I'm wrong because I've read through your posts, I questioned the same things and I could even point you to someone on this forum I sent many of my "life has no reason" Private Messages to. It's surprising how so many judgements are made, and you don't even know half the story... somehow I still think what I'm saying, is better than what you're thinking.

 

Well... lets go on to examine your judgements, because this is not a debate forum on religion, because why... I don't belong to a religion! You best re-read your knowledge, because not even the strong atheist historian you could find would ever deny that Jesus existed. Did I berate you? no... you made judgements, and I corrected them, or tried to for that matter... but you're more interested in trying to prove your point... as I said. I cannot force you to believe anything, trust me I understand that, that is why arguing I know will not get us anywhere. Obviously ten pages in... no one's changed their minds... no one's advice seems to help...

 

Let me throw my last loop at you here, because I already know you just can't wait to see another post here... and you give no understanding to someone who's been in your position a year ago. I don't want your thread closed down, so don't bother replying to me, I'm not looking back... I leave telling you this because after reading that response, here is your BIGGEST mis-understanding of God... Jesus, has nothing to do with religion, Christianity has nothing to do with religion(at least true Christians)...and you can go research that until your hearts content. Christian was actually a derogatory term meaning "little Christs" in Hebrew translation... and until I understood what the Bible and God's words really meant in my life, I would still be in your same position... I would not lie... I'd probably be dead. You'd think with all your logic, you've thought your own mind out from underneath itself with your own logic... you're like a roller coaster stuck in a loop, or better yet a hamster stuck in a wheel and you see no way out to the sides because you've got such strong blinders on keeping you facing forward/running hard and strong til eventually you give in and just let that wheel take you tumbling... and again, with all that logic, you're still fighting your way towards death, ready to argue how "right" you are about how "pointless" everything is, yet again you're still the one contemplating death while everyone here trying to help you in their sane mind(in some sense) is not contemplating suicide. So many metaphors for it.. I can't even begin to end... good luck Atomicitica.. I'm sorry for your health problems, and I can understand why you're so down, but don't look for meaning in death, look for meaning in life. You're only going to find what you're looking for...

[whes]

^^this I totally agree with. It's hard sometimes to stop searching for "the point" or "the reason" or a god of some sort cause we all want validation in our lives. But none of that is tangible and you can't depend your own sense of importance, happiness, or anything on anyone else.

 

What I believe in is my self. I believe in me. It's the only thing I know of for sure, and nobody else will look after me as good or as much as I will. I'm not a crazy independent chick who doesn't need anyone, but I also don't require anything or anyone else to be happy within my own head and within my own body. I just try to be.

 

And all that stuff that Zeitgeist said about doing small "insignificant" things just because he knew it bring a small contentment is totally true. It's not stupid or naive to feel contentment at pointless things. To me, that's almost the way it's supposed to be. We evolved from a rather simple creature, and maybe our problems come from making everything way too complicated.

[Odysseus]

Back at this...with my small brain, and emotional heart.

 

I can tell you that there is no question that we are in a constant conflict with what our purpose is in life. I can't tell you what yours is atomic. What I can tell you is that I find solace in both the pursuit of change and making things "better" and pleasant sound of my children's voices, of the wind. The life of "doing" and the life of "being".

 

I've been through, many times, in my life the reflection of purpose. Most recently, its taken me to less and less materialism (which my ex-wife still pursues) and more and more quality of life with the people I share emotions and time with (my children, my girlfriend, family and friends).

 

I work hard...not for the money, but for the satisfaction of knowing and seeing what I can accomplish with my two hands, my mind. These are things, among others, I'm trying to pass down to my kids so they understand the satisfaction of life beyond the material.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...there are people...real people out there who are trying to change the world...one moment at a time...and at the same time enjoying life in the moment. I truly care about my fellow man/woman. And about you. I don't do this because God tell me to do so, or because of some social contract (Hobbes). It's a weird mix of personal satisfaction and altruism. Self and self-lessness if you take my meaning.

 

Just talking here.

[BellaDonna]

Thank you finally sharing some of what has led you to this point.

[NightLily]

Yeah .. I don't think there is any point to life either. I guess you get to decide your own point hopefully. Maybe the goal of survival and just be shear curiosity. I mean, if you kick off too soon you aren't going to get to see all of the scientific advancements you would have been able to experience otherwise.

 

Maybe you should just decide what you want to do then do it. Preferably something that involves living verses dying.

[ReadyToGo]

Hey everybody,

 

My first post. I suppose I'm happy to be here. I wasn't going to join, but after reading the spirited debate between Atomicitica and all of the wonderful people here, I signed up so I could post.

 

All morning I have been eyeballing the loaded shotgun lying next to me on the couch. How I could so easily prop the stock of it on my coffee table so that their would be no recoil when firing. While sitting watching DVD's of the T.V. show Lost, wrap my lips around the barrel and in a split second end my misery. I would of course be courteous enough to wear diapers and lay plastic down when I carry out my act so that my feces, urine and splatter doesn't ruin our furnishings.

 

It was comforting to read Atomicitica's outlook on life, because it is so similar to how I feel about our society, as well as asking the cliche question; what is the point? I'm sure we have all ended up on this forum because of that question in one form or another.

 

Thank you Zeitgeist. Your previous post to Atomicitica has kept me going for one more day:

 

Atomicitica,

I was trying to reply earlier, but everything I wrote sounded like bull* * * * , even to me. That I believe it doesn't really matter because I know how you'd see it. Because we've all been there. And your situation really isn't any different than anyone else who has been there. We all at some point (several points) ask ourselves the question, "What's the point?". When we can't come up with a satisfactory answer, we conclude it's because there isn't one. And we get angry/sad/despondent when we "realize" this truth. However, we make a very big assumption there. We assume that there must be a point, otherwise life is not worth living... Along with the rest of it, a truly wonderful post Zeitgeist. Thank you.