Syntax1985 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 another thing painted, gonna sound shallow as hell, but the girls i date now are hot ( for my preferences). i actually find them really attractive. were as looking back on it, i used to target people i would comfortable with because they were insecure or i didn't think them to be the best looking person in the world. I'd date someone for the wrong reason coz deep down without realising, i wanted to think theyd see me as the best thing in the world, and idolise me as the most amazing person ever. ive actually been told by people now that im really special and amazing, and thats not because as you put it " i throwed myself into a puddle" but because i think im a open genuine honest guy. basically, make him read that post, maybe read it with him and point out how true it is ( a female perspective is gonna strengthen that message ), because at the end of the day, no matter how he reacts, if he listens to it, hes gonna be a much happier person. tough lovin time lol. Link to comment
anya1607307555 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 personally I don't think anything you say will have much effect, and certainly not the lectures you appear to want to give him. of course, you're entitled to, and I would actually encourage you, to lay down the law and no longer tolerate his self-loathing (changing the subject everytime) but he can only change himself and while he's got you trying to do it for him, why would he bother try? continue to be the positive role-model you obviously are for him, include him in fun activities, be there when things are really tough, give constructive advice when asked but other than that, get busy with your own life. the negativity will only bring you down and neither of you need that. Link to comment
Syntax1985 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 personally I don't think anything you say will have much effect, and certainly not the lectures you appear to want to give him. of course, you're entitled to, and I would actually encourage you, to lay down the law and no longer tolerate his self-loathing (changing the subject everytime) but he can only change himself and while he's got you trying to do it for him, why would he bother try? continue to be the positive role-model you obviously are for him, include him in fun activities, be there when things are really tough, give constructive advice when asked but other than that, get busy with your own life. the negativity will only bring you down and neither of you need that. your right he has to want to change, but clearly his negativity is a cry for this? and she isn't trying to change him, she's trying to help him realise why what hes doing is making him unhappy. Link to comment
Hayles Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Yeah, sometimes we all need a little kick up the bum to make us realise that the only people letting us down are ourselves... and honestly - I believe with everything in me, as a friend, you have been given that right to speak and be honest - you are there to support your friends and offer advice and opinions - that's what a friend is, someone you have chosen to be your "family", so if the people closest to us cant shake us up, who can?! Link to comment
Syntax1985 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Yeah, sometimes we all need a little kick up the bum to make us realise that the only people letting us down are ourselves... and honestly - I believe with everything in me, as a friend, you have been given that right to speak and be honest - you are there to support your friends and offer advice and opinions - that's what a friend is, someone you have chosen to be your "family", so if the people closest to us cant shake us up, who can?! 100% right. i mean put it another topic, your friend is on drugs, now theres only 1 person in the world that can get that person off the addiction, that's down to them. but that doesn't mean you have to sit back and mind your own business while someone close to you throws they're life away. Link to comment
anya1607307555 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 where have I said to leave him alone to throw his life away? from my own experience I have seen family members sink lower the more that is done to 'save' them. left to their own decisions they have eventually sought help and had more success in changing certain bad behaviour patterns. Link to comment
Timebandit Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 from my own experience I have seen family members sink lower the more that is done to 'save' them. left to their own decisions they have eventually sought help and had more success in changing certain bad behaviour patterns. Important observation. There is a fine line between helping someone and being an "enabler" of their (self-) destructive behaviour. If you are about to help someone, you have ask yourself if you are robbing them of their lerning experiences. This can sometimes be very difficult to discern... Link to comment
CaptainPlanet Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Leave him alone and let the world crush his gentle spirit. Being nice is good. He will either, become resentful towards women and starting treating them as they deserve to be treated. I.e not nicely. or he will find a woman, be nice to her, and they will have a wonderful relationship.. Either way it is something he has to discover on his own. Link to comment
Syntax1985 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 where have I said to leave him alone to throw his life away? from my own experience I have seen family members sink lower the more that is done to 'save' them. left to their own decisions they have eventually sought help and had more success in changing certain bad behaviour patterns. sorry anya i was trying to make a point in a really stupid and horrible way, sorry if it seemed like i was putting words into your mouth. basically i think you should never stop giving advise and support to your friends, but my opinion. leave it as that. Link to comment
RLW Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Leave him alone and let the world crush his gentle spirit. Being nice is good. He will either, become resentful towards women and starting treating them as they deserve to be treated. I.e not nicely. or he will find a woman, be nice to her, and they will have a wonderful relationship.. Either way it is something he has to discover on his own. wow, that is the only response, in my opinion, that has actually made sense. I propose all replies before this are deleted and the thread frozen and made a sticky. Link to comment
Timebandit Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 He will either, become resentful towards women and starting treating them as they deserve to be treated. I.e not nicely. or he will find a woman, be nice to her, and they will have a wonderful relationship.. Either way it is something he has to discover on his own. wow, that is the only response, in my opinion, that has actually made sense. I propose all replies before this are deleted and the thread frozen and made a sticky. There is a third option. He realises that nice guy versus jerk is a false dichotomy, which he has used to defend his passive behaviour towards women. Instead, he finds that there is wide continuum ranging from being passive , to being assertive and to being an aggresssive jerk. He does not want to be a jerk, but that he now knows that he does not get anything out of life by being passive. So he actually grows a backbone and starts acting more asssertively towards women. Gets girl and a promotion ;-) Link to comment
anya1607307555 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 ^ isn't that basically what I said! syntax1985: no apology needed but I do appreciate it. I only used my family as an example because the point was made about treating friends like family...and that's how I did handle it when it was family. Link to comment
paintedfish Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 I hate to say this... but I disagree. I don't plan on sitting him down and lecturing him for hours saying " And THIS is why you're pathetic, and THIS is why you're so undesirable, etc." I know from personal experience that when I get whiny, or I get upset and really down on myself... if someone tells me... "oh grow up!" or "now you're wallowing because it's easier," it reaaally hurts my feelings, but it immediately snaps me out of it a little, and as time goes on I think about it and I do stop wallowing. I start to notice when Im doing more and more. Having someone pull you out of your own head is necessary when you're moping and you're down on yourself. I know he has to want to change, but I feel by coming to me repeatedly with this problem, that he has allowed me the place in his life to be able to give him advice, and a smack on the bottom in the right direction. Thanks for the input everyone... Im going to talk to him next time he brings it up, but rest assured Im not going into lecture mode. But Im not going to wait around till the world "crushes his gentle spirit." Im sure it will some day if nothing changes, but why wait till then? Ive seen men who DONT change, and they do find a woman, and they bring her down constantly. Also, I think it's vital to point out that, same as this kid, they're not just being nice because they're genuinely nice. They're being doormats because they feel no one will love them otherwise. They're nice to keep people around, and do favors because they need people to like them. That's not a good way to be... if you're going to do something nice, do it to make yourself feel good and to genuinely help someone... ya know? Link to comment
Borashi Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover Have the guy you're worried about read that book. He will understand more about himself and being an integrated male. Nice Guy/Bad Guy, it doesn't matter. I don't really think of myself as either one. The issue with nice guys is about being more assertive, comfortable in your own skin, and having the confidence to just live your life. Link to comment
grymoire Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Really, Syntax1985? That's really interesting. I have had the opposite encounter. I get these "nice guys" all over me and I turn them down left and right. All my friends go, "Aww but he's such a nice guy?!" And I'm like ugh... I know. rofl if the "nice guys" hit on you and you turned them down then that just means that you did not feel the basic attraction... i doubt if it was because them exhibiting the "nice guy" characteristics... Link to comment
RLW Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 if the "nice guys" hit on you and you turned them down then that just means that you did not feel the basic attraction... i doubt if it was because them exhibiting the "nice guy" characteristics... i second this point Link to comment
paintedfish Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 if the "nice guys" hit on you and you turned them down then that just means that you did not feel the basic attraction... i doubt if it was because them exhibiting the "nice guy" characteristics... But its those "Ill do anything to please you" " I respect women so much that I am one" nice guy attributes that ARE unattractive... the air of desperation around them is usually something you can detect shortly. And it means a relationship where you are constantly building them up, and them denying it, and you trying to be confident enough for the both of you, and them bringing you down. It's usually not worth it. Link to comment
paintedfish Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 We arent talking genuinely nice, compassionate guys. Its the obsessive, whiny, low self esteem guys that have a great personality, buried way beneath self deprecation and a constant need for people to like them. Link to comment
grymoire Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 But its those "Ill do anything to please you" " I respect women so much that I am one" nice guy attributes that ARE unattractive... the air of desperation around them is usually something you can detect shortly. And it means a relationship where you are constantly building them up, and them denying it, and you trying to be confident enough for the both of you, and them bringing you down. It's usually not worth it. If a guy asks you for a date and the girl agrees... and then during the dating phase he gives out the desperation vibes and other typical "nice guy" things then yea.. what you say is true.. But when a guy asks a girl for a date and she turns him down right there... then where is the opportunity for that guy to show his behavior to her in the first place? Link to comment
paintedfish Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 Well with these nice guys that we mean... they DONT ask you out on the spot. They dont come up to you in a bar, or where ever... they try to be friends first. So you know them at least a little before they work up the conviction to ask you out. Link to comment
Timebandit Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 But when a guy asks a girl for a date and she turns him down right there... then where is the opportunity for that guy to show his behavior to her in the first place? So much of it is detected through non-verbal communication. The self always shines through. Link to comment
grymoire Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Well with these nice guys that we mean... they DONT ask you out on the spot. They dont come up to you in a bar, or where ever... they try to be friends first. So you know them at least a little before they work up the conviction to ask you out. yea.. i agree.. that's a different scenario altogether... being friends first before asking out never works out Link to comment
paintedfish Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 Its not a different scenario than the original post. It's different from the guys you're talking about though, I think. If I meet a guy Im really attracted to, and I talk to him and hes whiny and clingy even a little, I back off and see where it goes... and if he continues, no matter if he looks like Brad Pitt, there's no way I would be attracted to him. The same goes for girls. You can't have a successful, happy relationship with someone who's needy and incredibly self conscious about themselves without a considerable amount of work and focus. It's usually just not worth it. Link to comment
paintedfish Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Also, just to clarify... theres nothing wrong with these guys. I dont have a problem with my best friend, obviously. We wouldnt be friends if he was unpleasant to be around. He's also just really not someone I would date. And that's what these guys usually want to know, is why they're always in the friend zone. Because they're great friends to have. Im not trying to insult anyone... and if someones happy being a "nice guy " then go for it, and Im sure youll either grow out of it or find someone who doesnt make you... This is just when people have the problems specified in the OP. Link to comment
CaptainPlanet Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 What is the point of a woman if you cannot be nice to her ? I mean really. If I want to be dominant and show how strong I am I'll play football, or take up boxing or something. A relationship with a woman is supposed to be something tender. Rough one night encounters are a waste of time. You're better off getting an escort. In all honestly she would at least smell good, be clean and sober. Probably more attractive, she'd make for better conversation anyway, and you don't have to call her after. I really don't like the idea of a relationship where I have to be 'not nice' though. Why am I investing all this time in a person to be mean to her ? I don't understand your point of view and why this guys behavior warrants any sort of intervention. We're made to be depressed for a reason. During those times we need time out. I've clearly been depressed for a long while not and I am just starting to come out of and nothing anyone has really said could help. You just need time out. Link to comment
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