al7

Ok, I see you point. But why nerdiness in guys in general is such a turn off?

So why would say..my hobby of reading philosophy\psychology book be such a turn off by itself? She doesnt know me yet, about once I say I have such a hobby.. thats it. Is it that scary? Does it imply that such a person is boring?

When you got ot know a girl over internet and want to meet her for the first time in person...would it be 100% necessary to talk to her over the phone? I am a bad phone talker since I dont see her reactions, no smiles...

Interesting....Why for many girls anything that shows that a guys is nerdy is such a turn off? Why nerdy guys are a turn off??

Honestly I am very surprised when a girl says somehting like that. Why? well.. you are a girl, and it is enough for you just to go out... guys would immediately approach you. Go to a club\bar\party. There are tons of guys who would start advertising themseves to you. ...I dont know what to think. May I assume you are overly selective?

Just thinking out loud. Why for many girls anything that shows that a guys is nerdy is such a turn off? Why nerdy guys are a turn off? Could ladies post here some opnions please?

The first step in this case would be to admit to yourself that your expectations for ordinary, casual conversation are incredibly unrealistic (although you're absolutely right, Hi is an impersonal ritual). Ideally, you could practice your conversational skills on people you don't necessarily crave that connection with but if you crave it with everyone...well, I don't know. I find it slightly insulting that you think I thrive on superficial relationships. Everyone craves deep connections, but one has to realise that one can't have a spiritual bond with everyone they meet. As for conversation openers, usually I just let part of my internal monologue slip out. I find that when I try to script my conversations, they end up turning out very badly so I really can't help you here. My suggestion would be if you don't know anything about her, ask her something about herself (like someone said, people love talking about themselves). And Beec's right when he says that listening is a very important and often overlooked skill. I did a project on lucid dreaming in high school and read a few of Dr. Stephen LaBerge's books. It takes time and discipline and is a very frustrating process. With the hand thing, I believe he suggested drawing a big C on one of your hands (C for Consciousness) so that when you saw it you would think about your consciousness state. The hands never really did it for me, but I never drew on myself, either. Amazingly I have quite decent (not below average) conversational skills. The problem I have very hard time trying to improvise by chatting up with strangers. Seems I cant find a topic to talk to a person I dont know at all. And that makes me stuck..I say "Hi" and get stuck. Instaed of a topic to talk about I feel...I have no idea what to talk about. I mean just extroverts talk more and they generally are satisfied with less depth of convo but with more people to talk about. Intorvets would rather to to one, longer and more in depth. It is just about preferences based on our psychology. Not superficiality involved here. Would "Hi, you got cool boots, where did you get them?" be a good opener? It is about her, it is an open questions.. I guess it is even quite natural.

Ceema-k: I can remind myself that attracting women is not about modelling yourself after negative stereotypes (i.e. The Jerk). I also get irked when people foccus only on polar extremes (on any issue) and totally disregard the middle ground, which more often than not, makes the most sense. You mentioned your friend how started adopting a "who cares" attitude. I think that's great.. cuz that doesn't necessarily mean he's acting like a jerk with women. What are the results of this transforrmation? Is it quantifiable (sleeping with many women each month)? Qualitative (found a great gf)? Or does he simply feel better about himself? --- Very good question. He had quite a lot of gf, not super many but a lot. I think that the result of transformation is mostly how girls treat him. They do treat him well now! I guess they are kinda scared to lose such a cool guy who constantly show they "I dont care that much". The idea is simple for a girl: if he doesnt care then maybe he can get any girl he woants so he is cool and I should try to keep him" He found a good gf, I am not impressed but he liked her a lot. She is not pretty but I guess good as a person. They got married already. All I want to get accross really is you go out on the street and see couples. Can you honestly think each of those guys is a jerk? --- I dont see couple on streets, they all hiding in cars.. but anyway: Right, good point. I am sure that most of guys in couple I see are either rich enough or adopted that "i dont care attitude to some high extent. Otherwise she as a part of a couple would just stomp on a nice guy who cares...women test men constantly. But thats just what I think. Maybe it is not true. Of course not. Sure the jerks are out there, doing their thing and working their niche. They continue to serve the needs of women who have low self-esteem, emotional issues or the chronically immature. occasionally, jerks will crossover and poach women who would otherwise have the better judgement to go with a "Good Guy" or even a "Wimp". --- You think like an angel. All women would go for a jerk in terms of dating. But you r right, it would not last long. but though jerks dont want it to last long they can easily pick up next freshly enchanted female... What I should have done with my diagram was make the Nice Guy circle the largest of the 3.. to represent the fact that most guys out there are decent dudes and deserve to have great relationships. A lot of my friends fall into that category. They are NICE, upstanding guys, who have their share of insecurities and other human frailties. They treat girls they date with respect and do nice things for them. No surprise, a few of them have a "who cares" attitude that helps to attract ladies & also protects their own egos. They are all these things... but they rarely ever take crap from women. They don't allow themselves to be pushed around. That's key. I admire my friends for that. Not because they are players and sleep with someone new each week. But because they can be attractive guys and still stay true to themselves. --- Oh I am not saying jerks are great. The attitude "i dont care" is great. The attitude "no crap" is great. Thats what nice guys have to learn from jerks.

Beec: I never had an issue with that. I think the guy who writes a decent profile is going to get attention and/or responses. When i did it, women contacted me first as well as the other way around. Interesting points of view. Maybe you are really good at writing. My recent attemps were not successful at all. How long ago you tried online thing?

It is true, just I was referring to laws of attraction: extroverts (who talk a lot) attracts introverts, and possible introverts attract extroverts.

Ok, but site who allow unlimited contacts, just make super high competition for guys even if there are many women. I would not recommend any site that allows unlimited contacts, cuz girls would be simply overwhelmed with letters from guys and as an upshot guy would face very high rejection rate. Yes it is easy to handle that type of rejection.. but are you willing to send hundreds (200-500) letters to find who you are lookign for?

I'd say link removed is a good site for girl. GUys have huge competition there due to unlimitedness of contacts. I would rather go for something else.

So Lavalife is better cuz it is cheaper. Ok, lets do some math. In order to get a date, how many letters you have to send? I would estimate in most cases anywahere from 5-20, and that translates into about 5-20 dollars. Now, on average it is what? about (5+20)/2=12.5 just to get a date. But for example link removed was offereing $6 per month for unlimited contacts. It appear that on money scale link removed is twice better than lavalife: first it is 2 times cheaper, second, it is unlimited. Agree?

i think stereotypically its up to the male to approach the woman. sometimes guys have problems doing that..but onnline it could be less intimidating...the fear of rejection is not as great. girls get asked out by guys more so then the vice versa. --- Ok, but rejection rate online if maybe 99.9% for guys. Imagine, a girl online is getting some responses everyday.. ans she has to reject most of it. If you a guy who posted your online dating profile you may not receive any letters at all. So yeah, fear of rejection is low. But the rate of rejection is super high! If you kinda multiply them together.. I dont even know if we'll get a better situation with rejection than with real dating.

Oh come on, that is too harsh! I think it is just because girls are a little bit too shy than men are. I definitely agree with hockeyboy. Who is more picky? guys or girls? ok, what you think is plausible phrase "a picky girl" or "a picky guy"? To me the former is more real. Girls might be shy, but also very picky especially in online environment due to thouhsands for guys there who contstantly hit on them.

RayKay You are assuming I hide what I want from the men I date. I DON'T. --- We are about the list. There you could be more open that on a first date. You never mentioned the most important things there: sex\kids\jobs. but rather said: values are kids, sex is emotional fullfilment and jobs I dont care. You never asked for MY ENTIRE LIST, all you took was my "definition" of what I want in a nice guy, and MADE it my list. I was not going to write out all my values and goals for you --- Wait...Did you say that: So what do we want? A nice guy with values and morals, who will treat us with respect, desire us, be interested in us and caring, and with a zesty twist of interesting, independent, confident, passionate and fun (mmmmmm!). A guy who is a "man's man", but also lets it be known that his heart is fully invested with his woman You said what you wanted in men, and I am sure you mentioned most importnat qualities for you. I see this as you want a nice guy with the abovementioned features. It is not JUST a separate definition of a nice guy. It it the nice guy you wanted. I never ever said I did not care about sex. Heck I love sex and have a very healthy sex life. Is it something once I meet a guy I say "hey are you good in bed?" NO! SEX IS VERY IMPORTANT, but a sexual relationship develops along with the rest of the relationship. --- I am lost. You dont talk about sex on a first date which is fine. And you dont about sex in the list of s nice guy you want either. It seems you dont talk about such an important matter as sex at all unless sombody asks you. You still think you are not hiding sex,you sure? I am sorry I bugs you, but you just didnt say anything at all about it. I did not mean it to be my entire list. --- You said"So what do we want? A nice guy with values and morals, who... Ok, it was not a entire list. may I assume it was a list of most important qualities in a man you want? Or it was just an arbitrary list of nice guy things? I did NOT say "sex" because that is not something I talk about when I first meet a guy! --- Thats good, not on a first date. When you were writing the list were you feeling like on a first date, right? Amazing really. I do not HIDE things from my guy nor he from mine. --- Very cool. I am pretty sure the list was not designed for you guys. It was for guys here! Of course, you are free to search my posts in sex and romance and such for my sexual history and likes if it is THAT important to YOU. --- Should I? Hmm...if you recommend...

RayKay Well, obviously you are very SURE what women want, so then why are you posting here? --- I didnt ask what women want. I asked why you want a girl acoriding to you list. Thats why. You ask for honesty, we give you honesty, and you reject it. --- Where is the honesty? In hiding the most important stuff in those "common value\interests"? Kids.. no I wont tell him that..I'll find out later what he thinks, I dont wanna scare him away... This is NOT honesty. If he really likes you he'll wont be scared by whatever you say you believe in. If he is scared by your words, well... it is HIS problem, he was pretending since he didnt want you much in the very first place. No, I did not say "a guy who wants kids" because that is part of the shared values/goals and not everyone has the same ones. And it is NOT the only thing that must be in common. Sometimes these are things you hash out as you start dating. When I was younger I did not know if I wanted kids, right now I only know sometime way in the future, and my partner feels the same. We share that goal. --- You hide you want kids in "values"! Guys, can you imagine that "value" means "kids"?? I cant. Sorry I am dumb to imagine that. Kids are kids, family and not any "values". Please dont hide anything, it will be revealed later and later it would be way more painful for both to figure out suddenly you have different views on "values". Nor did I say I wanted an unsexy guy - I said my thoughts on the matter, that sexy is about more than looks, it is about emotional fulfillment. So is sex for that matter. --- So "sex" was hiding in "emotional fulfillment". Guys! Can you imagine that sex is some sort of "emotional fullfilment"? You've got great imagination. Really. No I did not include sex in the original list...because again that is something that evolves as a couple...one couples sexual dynamic will be different from another, what one likes is different from another. --- I can agree that if you dont want sex with him, you dont say it. Since you dont said it, you basically dont care that much about sex. Ok, thats fine. When I talk to a guy I don't say "he do we share the same values and have things in common". I find out as I talk to him. I am not going to tell him that if he does not like this I don't like him or something like that. --- ok, So what do you say to him? Do you say anything at all? You gotta say at least something.. right? I don't disagree some women stay too long when they should not.But sometimes a guy will say "later, not now" and yes I want them, just not yet. --- We all smart enough to figure out if he lies or not. If he has been saying "later not now" for a month thats ok. For a year thats ok.. next year you gotta be really serious about it if he says "noooo... latteeeer". Isnt it simple? And my list...well, it has been fulfilled by someone who is most definitely NOT a female. You can find it strange, but how about you put the question out there in general on the front page (in fact, you can link this post, quote my list or my post, whatever you want) to see what OTHER women think and if THEY and the REST of the men on this forum think it is too feminine. Go for it. --- I am sure all women are in your team. Relationships are a team sport, of course all women would support you out of solidarity. Men would think it is feminine. How can I out this question on the front page? Is there a special forum for that? Women generally are not looking for a one night lay or something too short term, they are looking for someone who they can trust for the long haul. Hence a list about character, and personality, rather than looks. --- Thats right. Although in dating we have to decied on the spot "Yes or no", and women simple dont have that oopotunity to figure out character or personality. So they go for sexy looks\good job. But later of of course the "values" might be very different.

LycosV al7: There is no perfect oppener, --- I know. Agree. Just some openers are better then the others. "Hi do you think I need dark glass?.. why? cuz your beauty shines that much I can see anything expect you" is definitely worse than "Hi.. I like your bracelet\boots. Where did you get it?" Im looking for some good ones, not perfect ones. you've got to wing it. --- I am very bad at "wings". I mind goes blank since I dont have a topic to talk about...I gotta do my homework and start with a good opener. It's based on the situation. --- Most situation are like this: she is walking slowly... maybe looking for something. Here is the situation for you. Please give me a couple of good openers "Hi", or "How's it going" is a little hollow, everyone says that walking down the street. If you've got nothing else, try introducing yourself, stick out your hand and raise an eyebrow, "Hey, al7, you?" --- I guess it is a bit too "aggressive" and not natural for her. She might be a bit scared by direct invitation to state her name. Besides, I gotta continue and say somethign next... some sort of topic... you know, there is not topic just in my or her name.

Caldus Wait. I didnt get stuck with rejections. If fact I move on and figured out what I lack is a good opener. Or some openers. If I have a couple I'd feel much less shy! I am trying to find an opener. I admit rejection is.. rejection. The crux of a problem for me now is in the words I am gonna say. I have some vague ideas about what I'd say, but they are still a bit vague. Did you not read my posts where I presented instances when I met girls? There's no perfect opener, just start it out with something. It can be anything from "hey I love your t-shirt, that is one of my favorite bands!" to just a simple "hi, mind if i sit with you?" The possibilities are endless so stop worrying about opener lines like it's a make it or break it deal. --- I am not looking for the perfect one but rather for some good ones. I have to accumulate some different ones in order to feel comfortable. And it is likely you have more experience with openers and approaching. I feel badly terrible with it...But I am getting some good stuff: 1. Hi, I like your.. boots\bag\bracelet! Where did you get it? 2. Hi, what is you major? (good in schools) Oh I heard it is tough to be in ? Is it true? "mind if I sit with you?" sounds good, but it is more of "Hi, how are you", so I gotta continue and say somethign more meaningful after that. By the way, do you practice\polish you approching skills?

Those "most important" things are the "most important things" according to YOU and your ideas of what they are.. --- Thats right. I am sure I expressed opinion of most guys on that matter. And most women. ...not to me or I would argue most "good girls". --- Really? You dont care if a guys is unsexy, poor and doesnt want kids? Then I am really really impressed. Him being rich is not important to me. Sexy is different from one person to the next. --- It is. We were not going into detail what sexy is.. if you would just mentioned "sexy" it would be enough and clear to get what u r saying. I don't care what their job is as long as they are happy with it. --- Possible. This is really rare. So you are a unique person. I don't care if their eyes are blue of brown, etc. --- I am sorry...Meaning what?.. you dont care about his looks? I did cover the sex, it is part of the click and the chemistry. --- You covered it when I asked if that is something you are interested in at all. Your original list didnt even mentioned anythign even close to it, look: The list: "A nice guy with values and morals, who will treat us with respect, desire us, be interested in us and caring, and with a zesty twist of interesting, independent, confident, passionate and fun (mmmmmm!). A guy who is a "man's man", but also lets it be known that his heart is fully invested with his woman" Want kids...well, yes that does have to do with the shared values and common interests. --- I dont argue on that. Just tell a guy "we have to have a commmon values" and let him guess what are they... he would not mention "kids" in eons... Is it that hard to be more specific? You can put anything in that "values\interests". More people would say they are somethign like love for sports and when you value honestly and being open. Kids as values is not a clear message, but rather confusing for most guys. Again, maybe it is clear for girls I dont know but we are talkign about guys. If you look on the forums many time women end up with guys who NEVER want to get married or have kids, and they find this out 5 years on or later...is that fair? I don't think so. Shared values and goals ARE important. --- I agree it is extremely unpleasant for women. But, let me tell you, women picked those guys, I am sure they probed and they figured out (in 5 years) that a guy didnt want kids. So what they do? They continue to go on until 5 years passed. Nice. I know why they wait.. they hope they would be able change a guy. Some even have a baby in order to intesify the process... oh well. PS, just because I am strong does not mean I am not feminine. --- I am sorry, I never said anything like that, especially about you. I am sorry you took it that personally, I didnt have anyintention to make it that way. What I said was: being athletic wont add any feminine qualities. Meaning...you wont gain anything women-like. Of course, if you like a softer girl thats fine, --- I do. Why would I want another "guy" next to me? Thats just me. It seems you are very big into sexualizing traits. --- I do not deny that. How is a guy who is moral and respectful any less masculine then one who is not? --- It is about nice guys and "jerks". nice moral guy would never say what he thinks or wants trying to be polite and respectful. A "jerk" would alsways say what he thinks or wants.. or even pardon me (grab woman's butt), and women find that...bold, spunky and thats why masculine! you can't say that list is feminine, maybe from YOUR point of view it is, but if you poll most women on here there lists of what they want will be similar. --- Lets be clear on that: you made that list not for women, women already know what they want they dont need any lists. You did that for guys. And I (and sure most guys) think it was really feminine list. I don't know many guys whos list is only LOOKS when they are thinking of more than a one night stand or a couple weeks of fun. Maybe if they are 16 or 17 (no offense to those who are) but move up, and you will find that is not the case. --- To develop a relationship a guy wants looks. I guess we were talkign about that, right? Sure if he is gonna jump into marrige he'll think more and present a longer list...something like: she has to be sexy\good in bed and easygoing enough to like it plus easygoing as a person. You cannot MAKE a click. No, I don't PICK whom I fall for. I meet people yes, I choose not to date/meet others...but I FALL for those who set something off in me. --- I agree. I am not bi, or lesbian. --- I never said you were. Just the list seemed was intended for such a person. So just teh opposite: you who seem a heterosexual person made a list that calls for another female. I found it starnge and I was completely discombobulated by it

Quote: I think too many people who are not having luck being the "nice guy" try and put the blame on women being shallow, or on other men being jerks, and women going for jerks and lying about wanting a nice guy. --- Yes, this situation is correct. Many nice guys blame women for hiding what they really want. Guys hope women have enough conscience to say what they want and not to pretend "I just want a nice guy". It is funny how often I see posts from people complaining how girls are too picky, when they themselves do the EXACT same thing (ie...great personality but missing in looks dept as you said above). Funny how that works. --- No one is hiding or pretending here. Yes, some guys are less lucky than other. But they do not lie about what they want.. and they do not lie to women about it. It is not about who complin more: men or women. It is about who is honest and who is not willing to be. It is possible to be YOU and meet the right girl. But you can't rush things, things happen when you are NOT looking, when you are confident and happy with whom you are, with OR without someone. --- I agree it might happen. Although again this is a perfect advice for girl: wait, and you'll meet you love of life. Not for guys! If a guy would would just wait... he'll retire single. Guys are supposed to take an active role in dating.

RayKay: I know him...he is a prince, right? I would truly disagree with that. I am not a princess in any case. --- I am sorry I was not talking about you since I dont know you. I was just talking about a concept the "search for a prince". Yes, men also search for princess though it seem we girls like this idea a bit more. believe me if some guy would say here similar long list of qualities I would not like it either. I am very athletic (a mountain biker, love camping, hiking, beer!), --- Agree, for some guys it might be a turn on. For me it is a big turn off: a girl would not gain much in terms of feminine qualities: being strong and muscular is something faaar from feminine in my opinion. Again, nothing personal. Many guys would love athletic girl. with a big heart, fun, caring, sensitive, I don't go out and hurt people or act better than all that either...and well, you have to take my word for it, but I am not lacking in the looks department. As females, we face a long list of requirements too. Not when a guy just wants someone to bang or to have someone, but when they are serious. A guy once told me I was not blonde, thereforeeee he could not be with me....how is that for senseless? --- That guy is stupid what we r talking about... Still most guys are not even close to have a such long list. In most cases they have just one thing there: looks. Agree with me, it is not much. And they are honest in what they want and what they dont want. Guys want girls. Although looking at the list "what women want" I would rather say those requirements are not for a guy, but for a girl. So many feminine traits, no job\money, nothing about sex or babies... A very misleading list. Again, dont take it personally, I just dislike the list I saw here. No, I don't look for a prince - I look for someone who has similar interests and whom I CLICK with, whom I can trust with my heart and to share my life with. I hardly think it is being picky to not "settle". --- Hmm. Just to CLICK and have a long list of qualities are two different and opposite approaches. We cannot necessarily PICK who we are going to fall for --- Really? You dont pick guys? You prefer to flow and not control your raft? Every girls requirements are different, we don't necessarily consciousLY choose them. --- I agree on that. So, contrary to your statement, there ARE indeed men like this. ---- Of course there are men like that. Who argue.. My point was: according to the requirements in the list, it was designed by female and for a female. Maybe bi female I dont know. But the most improtant parts were mot mentioned at all there (he is supposed to be: sexy-handsome, rich, want to have kids).

Caldus al7, it seems like no matter what advice we try to give you, you continue to believe that you will never grow out of this shyness. I think every possible bit of advice on this subject has been given to you. I think you're just making this a much bigger problem than it needs to be. If you aren't going to accept that dating is full of rejections, then chances are you won't ever try. --- Wait. I didnt get stuck with rejections. If fact I move on and figured out what I lack is a good opener. Or some openers. If I have a couple I'd feel much less shy! I am trying to find an opener. I admit rejection is.. rejection. The crux of a problem for me now is in the words I am gonna say. I have some vague ideas about what I'd say, but they are still a bit vague.

RayKay: So what do we want? A nice guy with values and morals, who will treat us with respect, desire us, be interested in us and caring, and with a zesty twist of interesting, independent, confident, passionate and fun (mmmmmm!). A guy who is a "man's man", but also lets it be known that his heart is fully invested with his woman I know him...he is a prince, right? But that a woman whould feel like a princess too, inside and outside. Seems most of the time either a girl is cute and dosnt give a s* about her personality, being kind\easying etc etc or she is a cool person but with less luck in looks department. I honestly dislike that "search of prince" attitude. We are facing a loooong list of requirements without even an idea why would we have to satisfy them. Are we going to have anything in return? Besides that.. looking at teh list, I'd estimate a good girl would definitely fir this list better than any men: values, morals (girls are full of moral we all agree on that), who will treat us with respect (a female friend would do that easily), desire us (ok, she's gotta be bi), be interested in us and caring, and with a zesty twist of interesting, independent, confident, passionate and fun. So the conclusion: a girl is a perfect match for a ... girl who is looking for a prince. See it for youself.