al7

Ceema-k: I know the Nice Guy vs. Jerk debate will continue until the end of time. --- Not true! We'll see... With this graphic I hope to get other guys to stop obsessing over the jerk so much. There are plenty of non-jerk guys who get girls. How does that happen? it happens because they are balanced.. they have 'positive' qualities of a jerk (i.e. confidence, resolve, excitement) & some good traits possessed by super-duper nice guys (i.e. respect for women, honesty, good manners). --- Well, of course if you put two guys in one of course it would be better version than just a jerk or just a nice guy. The way I see it... if you're not already a jerk, you'll never be a jerk. At least not by your own conscious willing. --- I have seen a guy, who consciously inserted that "I dont care" thing in his life with quite a lot of success. The thing is to be able not to care that much... and just do what you want to do, say what you want to say.. Easy? Not really at least for me it is not. And why would you want to compromise yourself so much just to attract women? --- Huh, I dont see it as a compromise, I see it as a personal growth since by saying\believing in that 'I dont care" more, I'd gain better skills in handling women.

Ceema-k Well al7, your hottie scale is weighted a little differently than mine, that's all The art gallery girl was a solid 7.5... my gauge was recently calibrated, that's why it's so darn precise. --- You are right, I was just curious.. since you got such precise data, maybe you have a concept how you evalute girls on 0-10 scale.. Anyhoo... yes, I've approached girls. I've also avoided giving you specific "lines" because it really does depend on the situation. Maybe I've just been very lousy conveying my ideas, but what I'm getting at here is having a specific icebreak prepared right down to the last letter is not the most important thing. Not by a long shot. If you twist my arm to get something specific out of me, then I'd just have to say that "hi" or "hello, how's it going?" are pretty reliable conversation openers. Honest to god. But how do you present yourself when you greet someone eh? --- "How r you" is not really an opener. It doesnt give you a topic to talk about. I am againt cheesy pick-up lines, but think natural openers are good. So situation is simple: She is looking for something slowly walking in a store. We have no idea what she is lookking for. She is not looking at you. She is not standing but rather move slowly as some people do in stores. What would you say after "Hi.. how are you.. hows it going..? Someone could post on this forum the sweetest pick-up line to use. But if we approach a girl and deliver the pick-up like a nervous wreck, it'll be completely useless. --- I completely agree. It s super important to have a good, cheerful mood.

Kyoshiro Ogari: I really can't see my shyness with women being conquered. I thought I was over it, but after chickening out yesterday, I feel like I'm at square one. I had a chance to strike up a conversation but I just couldn't do it. And this is with a girl who I and a few people suspect like me. For 30 minutes I kept saying that this may be my last chance, what harm could it do, but I just couldn't do it. I wanted to at least look this girl in the eye, and I couldn't even look in her direction. Ok, I see your point. Do you know what to say to her but just cant approach her? Or you dont know what to say and thats why you cant walk up to her?

Ceema-k: If you took the leap and asked that girl out, it would have been intensely stressful for you, no matter how it would've played out. --- Let me remind you one thing: if I know what to say, I'd feel way less.. almost no pain. Of course I can reach that cuz no one know what she'll say next, but at least I can prepare a good opener. Guys! What is the good opener (after "Hi, how r ya")? That's why people always say to not take rejection personally. That cute girl who turned you down for a coffee date? She didn't reject you. Why's that? Well, because She Just Doesn't Know. Right? She doesn't know jack about who you are. Should you still feel bad? Why not, it's only natural to feel bad whenever we dont' get what we want. --- It seem a bit misleading to say "she didnt reject you". We have to have cacurate info, so she did reject you based on your looks (or on what you said which is less likely or she has a bf). I'd never approach over pretty girl, it doesn male sense to me: even if I'd get a date, she'll never settle down for an average Joe and I doubt she'll settel down at all. So we have to choose.. appropriate level of cuteness to make sure it is possible for her to answer positively.

ShySoul: But if you say nothing then you'll always wonder what could have happened and if you would have had a chance. --- Lets start from simple. So, what is a good, perfect maybe opener?

Kyoshiro Ogari: If she rejected me, I would've been hurt badly and probably taken months to recover... but I would've been over it now because I knew I didn't have a chance. But not knowing that you may have a potential girlfriend at your fingertips is downright awful! 1. I hope you do what you preach. Do you approach girls in stores\malls etc? How do you start a convo? 2. I believe that we approach girls not out of our fear of regret. No! We all want something and that something is positive. We do it out of positive intentions not out of fear. If you do it out of fear all the time, you would eventually get overwhelmed with the amount of fear...

LycosV: so what your syaing we have to move our butt out of not of fear of rejection but out some other fear, the fear of regrets? ... On one hand you have the fear of rejection which basically stays the same, on the other you have a fear of regret/living alone for eternity which grows eveeytime you don't do something. Never underestimate the ability of fear to motivate. --- I see what your saying. I just think fear as the only stimulus is not gonna do the job. We gotta find something that we enjoy and use it as out main stimulus. Example: we work out of fear we'll have nothing to eat... but at teh same time we managed to find something interesting at work, capitalize on it and grow, expand and get a promotion or two. Yes, the fear is a motive..a powerful one, but not the only one. It just seems unlikely I would learn how ot approach girls simply out of some other fear (regrets you may say). We gotta find positive things and use them to learn. Maybe I am wrong but that what I think.

ShySoul: Ok, I'm getting a little tired of this thought that nice uys aren't exciting or adventurous. Or how people seem to equate nice with being a pushover. Folks, being a nice gut simply means being nice and polite. Nice guys can be every bit as exciting, adventurous, and confident as the jerks. I'll reveal the different for you between nice guys and jerks. If she goofed, made a mistake, was late etc etc a nice guy would be nice to her...say nothing ot just somethign polite. What a jerk what do? Oh well we all know.. cuz she doesnt care much about her he would do what he wants to do. It is an old paradox: the more you dont care about a girl, the more you are of a jerk, the more open you are with your emotions, words.. acts the more love you get from her. Why? She thinks: Oh he is so natural and open (saying what he thinks), he is spunky at the same time (he says somethign that nice guys dread to say), he is in control of situation.. cuz he can control me by saying, doing what he wants.. Thats why he is percieved as more exciting and adveturous. And more confident (cuz he just doesnt care about her, so he doesnt hesitate to say what he thinks and by doing so appeear as super confident dude). See?

Ceema-k If i think a girl is an 9 or 10 (out of 10), we are dealing with pure fantasy. I will look at them and my jaw will hit the floor. --- C'mon, they are real. I have seen quite a lot of 9s and 10s. No big deal to spot them, but I fugured out they are so spoiled.. would not you be, if you have some much attention.. if say girls would hit on you every minute? Eventually you woudl become so ... unpleasant to them, cuz you have so many and have to reject the rest anyway. The girl at the gallery was probably 7.5 which to me is very attractive, but also attainable --- 7.5.. hmmm you have such a precise gauge.. you sure she was not 7.67? back on topic. Anyway, my "aura" is probably nothing more than my ability to smile in public and look people in the eyes and be relaxed in public areas. I'm more of an inttrovert than extrovert, although an introvert is not necessarily a shy person. --- Ok, Do you apprach girls? what do you say to them? Please share...

I credit LD with giving me that kind of control to override my instincts because it was something I wanted so badly I could taste it and there were no negative repercussions to trying it (as opposed to, say, the risk of rejection associated with chatting up random strangers). You're still at the stage where you're looking for a magic, painless fix to make you a different person. You don't want it enough to succumb to mind control (and maybe that's a good thing). --- Hmm.. you see, rejection is a bad part but for me definitely not the worst. The worst is to start from scratch, improvise without any topics.. I'd easily chat her up once I know her. My "wants" do not help me with the convo improvisation. The nice thing about mind control is the more you use it, the less you need it, meaning in this case, one eventually loses their inflated fear perception through repeatedly ignoring it. That or I've become addicted to the rush of going against my cautionary thoughts, I don't know --- Who taught you LD? Can I find a loacal club\group that deal with LD? I have read some books about it, but it appeared so hard to me... I even didnot have (not remember( my dreams. And have no idea how I can remind myslf to look at my hand when I am sleeping... interesting. How did you do that?

lusitana: Gregarious, talkative, and cute! I'm going to remember that the next time my friends tell me not to be so quiet and then tell me not to be so bitter when I start talking. Yesterday I was wondering what to give up for Lent and they suggested I give up being "antisocial and unpleasant." --- Look, for gregarious and talkative (even if not extremely cute) it might be enough just to say hi, just to pat somebody while walking somewhere... no deep convos, but they know so many people.. and it is attractive as some kind of network power. Energy. "Oh..she knows so many people..have so many friends... have so many fun.. so many opportunities." Isn't it attractive? Unfortunately for introverts Hi is not enough. They see it as merely a ritual and want deeper connections. Introverts suck... if I can change one thin about my life I'd transform myself into an extrovert. Conversation is a two-way street, though; if I'm talking to someone I expect them to provide some conversation fodder. People who consistently answer the question "How are you?" with "Fine, thanks" are boring anyways. --- Ok, so what is a good convo opener for you personally after Hi, how are you"? The whole point of the lucid dreaming story (and I swear it had a point besides how cool it is) was that I'd taught myself to respond to a trigger without thinking about it. What I'm saying is you may have to forcibly program yourself so that every time you think, "I want to talk to her but I'm scared," you immediately change the thought to, "I want to talk to her." --- Sure thats good. I wan to talk to. Just what am I gonna say if I dont know anything about her? I credit LD with giving me that kind of control to override my instincts because it was something I wanted so badly I could taste it and there were no negative repercussions to trying it (as opposed to, say, the risk of rejection associated with chatting up random strangers). You're still at the stage where you're looking for a magic, painless fix to make you a different person. You don't want it enough to succumb to mind control (and maybe that's a good thing). --- Hmm.. you see, rejection is a bad part but for me definitely not the worst. The worst is to start from scratch, improvise without any topics.. I'd easily chat her up once I know her. My "wants" do not help me with the convo improvisation.

Guys, I dont think you have to emphasize what you do at all. Why? Cuz then would inadvertently make her think about you in terms of you wallet. "He is a lawyer, wow, he must be rich.. or with good perspectives.. cool, i'll date him.. all my friend would love to hear about my such new date!" Anything you tell her about your job, would just make her think about how much you can earn...she thinks why else he is telling me about it? He doesnt expect me to get any interest in his work.. so he is trying to show off! and for all of us guys who are not lawyer\doctors talkign about work cannot be a showoff. Just dont dwell on work, better not to say any details at all. "I work for "J&J systems", they are awesome people." Thats it. Much later you can tell her what you actually doing.

so what your syaing we have to move our butt out of not of fear of rejection but out some other fear, the fear of regrets?

weirdrabbit: Imagine that: I am shy. And she is shy. What kind conversation we will have? About shyness? So nothing is wrong with shy girls, but I guess shy people are more compatible with non shy extroverted people. I disagree shyness doesnt mean you wont have anything to talk about. Shy people still have things to say but maybe are initially scared of saying them. But once you get to know a shy person you will have plenty to talk about. You are really cutting out a lot of girls here. --- I am sorry I didnt make my pint clear. It is not so about have somethign to say... it is about 1. How you say it (loud, fast, with high speed!) 2. Extroverts appear more confident and they are cuz they speak more and have a better voice 3. Extrovert think faster and make decisions faster. So extroverted are definitely more capable of surviing in a society. Introverts are often reserved, somtimes shy and speak less, and in a more quiet voice. No spunk involved here! By your theory, the extroverted girls might think the same about shy guys and would prefer to go out with more "exciting extroverted" guys that have something to say. The girl may think she would have to do all the talking and it would be a one sided relationship, thus extroverted girls are more suited for extroverted guys. --- Absolutely. You are right. Any girl would prefer an extrovert guy to a reserved shy intorvert or just an introvert. Extroverts are social, more bold, spunky so obviosly they have huge advantages over introverts in terms of likability for girls. It is not the same for guys: some guys prefer reserved intorverted "modest" girls...

Double J You are right about that. But how do you deal with that accumulating rejections? Rejection is part of the dating process. If you feel like you're getting rejected too frequently and you don't know why, maybe you have to work on some part of your personality, the way you approach them, etc. I have been working on it, but seems nothing is working..I've tried online dating, and there seem girls are extremely picky due to huge competition: imagine all guys can constantly hit on all girls online, and no shyness is involved...I guess there they judge only two Parameters: you pics and you income. Just try not to take it personally - rejection happens to everyone. It's perfectly normal for a girl not to find you their "type" - there will be one who will. --- Yes, but how "not to take it personaly" when you collect rejection is massive amounts? Honeslty what kinda guy you like in term sof introvert-extrovert?

Double J I do think that by approaching a girl, you have nothing to lose. Only gain. --- Welll, right - you may gain some rejections. if you gather enugh of them this buildup might just stop you from approaching further... The reason why people are afraid to approach is because they're scared of rejection, and that stems from lack of self confidence. When you think of approaching a girl, don't be concerned about the outcome - just think of it as meeting a girl and making a friend. --- You are right about that. But how do you deal with that accumulating rejections?

ShySoul, Okay, maybe I'm "lucky" to have so many females in my classes. But thats just one example of where girls are. Girls are everywhere. --- Please read my previous post about toastmasters. Almost no girl were there...I can find girls my uni but I have to approach them just walk up and start talking... Toastmasters have table topic speeches: when you get a topic (a question acyallu) and withoin a minutes have to speake about this topic for abotu 2 minutes. That was SCARY!! They all got question about Valentine's day.. I was terrified - I would not be able to say anything especially on that topic that I even cannot relate to. I suck at improvisation. And exctaly improvisation is required to make an approach.... You never know when you will be meet one. It doesn't matter if you don't interact with a lot of females, at some point I'm positive you will. In the meantime, don't worry about it. There is more to life than girls and relationships. Yes, I know how lonely it can feel. --- I definitely agree to just learn how to approach without any other further goals. That makes sense.

Caldus: Well, you know, you live once. You will never be young again. Now is the time to do something about your shyness. Do you want to spend your whole life being afraid of talking to girls? --- No, I dont! I just seem cannot overcome that fear... I think there's a deeper problem than that though. The problem is that you feel like you aren't in control with certain aspects of your life. To me, gaining confidence after you get over these fears feels almost as good as finding the right girl. However, nothing is going to change unless you do something about it. ShySoul makes a good point. Don't try to force love to come to you. Just take it easy and see how things go. Whenever you meet a girl, get her number, take her out somewhere, and see if she's right for you. Don't just settle with a girl just because she looks good. --- Haha, you are funny. I thought you would say" dont settle with a not pretty girs just cuz she is a girl". believe me, Good looking girls are extremely high maintenance and I think they should be avoided. Imagine: she is a model. Even if she giave you anumber and you asked her out you had a date with her.. what are teh chances you will develop any kid of relatiinship with her? Every day, ecery second thousond of dudes r hitting on her. Competition makes her very picky. I'd personally even didnt look at girls like 8-10. I know how it is with the whole cold approach thing. I think the best way to meet women is through social events or through clubs. --- Sure, it is good. I went to toastmasters club yesterday. Oh man, most of folks there have sales gigs... so they naturally confident and talkative. There were 5 women: two out of age. One is very chinese (pretty but i guss she is not willing to make friends with anyone except chinese), another one is not cute. So from about 40 people only one girl was really really cute. I am sure she is married already. Besides even if she is not... the competition is... huge. All those dudes speak 1000 times better than I do. Have better jobs etc etc. So I need to find "women" clubs.....

Imagine that: I am shy. And she is shy. What kind conversation we will have? About shyness? So nothing is wrong with shy girls, but I guess shy people are more compatible with non shy extroverted people.

Ceema-k: Sadly, most strangers will usually say the bare minimum to keep conversations short with people they don't know. --- How right you are...strangers do not want to talk... especially girl think only freaks can walk up and start talking to her... How sad. Can we change it somehow? Maybe just kept telling her "Ohhh.. I know you! I have seen you three times before!" ? Maybe because i'm a lot less shy, i exude an aura of approachability that I severely lacked as a shy person. --- Where, how did you get that.. aura? Are you an extrovert? As soon as I'm inside, I'm approached by a very attractive blonde girl, who greets me and asks how she can help. I say hello. I tell her I've never been to this gallery and I was killing some time but I said that some of the artwork looks interesting. So she start giving me a quick summary of what new art is being displayed. --- Thats cool, I think she is willing to kill her time too.. and whiel hitting on you What do you like from 1 to 10? Somthing close to 9? ...Unfortunately I felt interest mostly from .hmm.. very overweight chicks. I dont mind, but in additiong to that they were to attractive to me. Girl: Hi, can I help you with anything today? (big friendly smile) Me: Uhh, hi... (nervous smile) no, I'm just looking, thanks. (proceed to look away and end any further communication) --- I think a lot of saleswomen just dont want to spend too much time on a customer. They would answer all your questions but usually r not willing to continue - they r kind... busy. maybe managers r watching them?

LycosV: I have to agree with al7 and 69_king on the not many women in classes comment. In an engineering field you've got maybe four women who have been in all of your classes through college. They all got snapped up in the first semester by the hundreds of other engineering men with more social skills --- It is not only classes...today I went to a student club. 3 girls, 3 guys... no girl was a model, but two were maybe even more shy than I was.. and one was just talkative, spunky and extroverted. This was very attractive... (she was not cute or pretty though but attarctive!). And you know What? sure she is already married in her 1st or 2nd year in uni. So what is we shy people supposed to? Gor for shy girls? Ohhh.....

Ceema-k: I think it would be interesting to her HOW you've gotten over your shyness? No drugs, alcohol or herbs. My goals in university forced me into situations where I would have to interact with people. Back then I thought I wanted to major in film studies, so in my sophomore year I somewhat reluctantly started volunteering on student film shoots and taking film production classes in order to build up my application resume. It should be said that film students are typically not shy people, quite the opposite. It takes a lot of hustle and people skills to make it in the entertainment/media industry, so most of the people I met in my 2nd and 3rd year of uni were pretty ambitious, wacky, competitive or all of the above. --- I have been mostly interested in how to overcome a specific aspect of shyness.. when you cant walk up and talk to a female strangers. Have you overcome that as well?

Doctor Smurf Ive worked as a pool attendant for a year and a half so I have too talk to literally everyone - it was SOOOO scary when I started! I find just answering their questions honestly is a good idea.... So you meet girls only thorugh work? Thats sounds easy you dont even have to think about it...

ShySoul --- First, it's perfectly natural to be afraid of talking to a member of the opposite sex. That's hard for most people, even the ones who seem to be outgoing and talkative. --- I think I realized my biggest fear is not about feamles at all. It is about random , undefined strangers..men or women. If I dont have a question for them or I dont need anything from them I stuck with a convo with undefined topic... I understand that approaching strangers is hard, which is why I don't see the point in it at all. Meet people naturally, through friends, work, an organization, etc. --- I certainly agree with you. See, at work I see no peopel at all. Have no friend here so far and acquaintances do not iinvite me to their parties or anyhting..Clubs! I have explored some clubs at my uni. Either they are focused on their classes ( i just dont fit there at all even if it is something I liek: example - Psychology club I have gone to. They were talkign about battered women, shelters, how can they participate in that.. I am sorry I wanted to vomit.. it was incredible boring and I could not related to it at all) or it is about sometheing I dont care about. Toastmasters have mostly guys and older folks. Hmm? Clubs and organizations are great. --- Ok, are you a member of any club? Do you know any interesting clubs in your area? Don't worry about approaching girls. --- I just think if I dont approach them I am not gonna talk to them at all ever...doenst sound good to me.

ShySoul: I'm majoring in accounting and finance --- Haha, now I know why you feel so relaxed and think about "half of all population are females" often. Your major is like 70% females, so you see them everyday and naturally think "Oh.. there are so many of them.. why would I do anything to meet them.. they are right here".