al7

1899: The reason I feel this is because being here is like beating a dead horse.. Im looking for a new life, a life away from my parents, away from just houses and gas stations. I notice when im forced into a new environment around new people (like a new office job) I have no choice but to meet new people. You have to come to your new job, home, school, church, everyday.............and you might find a female friend. --- Maybe you are just tired that nothing is happening in your life. When you are away from your parents and place u grew up, you usually run between your work and your apt. You see no one, at work it is all business. I moved and see no one her at all. All people are either married or busy with work.

ShySoul: We've got a difference of opinion on how to "get" girls. I don't think you should approach girls with the intent of getting a number or date. --- I dont think we got a difference here. I am sure your method is better since it is natural if you can use it. I just cant..dont have any females who I just know or interact with. When I said that every girl that I've like has started with friendship, I meant that I've never tried to actively search for someone or started liking someone without talking to them first. --- Well..again if you dont know anyone what else you can do as not to actively search? You situtation is awesome I know quite a lot fo guys who found wives through teaching. What do you mean you will never meet girls? --- I mean that I dont know any girls here and do meet them just by accident. Half the population is female. --- Nah.. it is more than half.. but I dislike that philosophy, sorry. It does not give a practical guide, but rather tease you in a way: Look, there is so much money in the world (country)...What do u mean you are poor?" There are no females at your work? --- Nope. Engineering u know. Actually, there is no one here, I have been wokring alone in teh room for last 2 years. I know that the majority of my school is female. I don't have to approach girls, I can meet them naturally through class. You can do the same thing at work. Most of your friends are married, but not all. --- I am not talking actual classes, even if I would there is no "good" females there: of approx me age, single. And I see no people at work. Do things you like to do. In doing so you will naturally meet people who you at least have something in common with. Join a club that has to do with an interest of yours. Say, a book club or a nature club. --- I am trying.. today I'll visit Bohemianism Club and tostmasters club. Just don't go into it thinking you are looking for a girl. --- It is hard to. Imagine you are not 22 but 32? or 42? You still would have the same carefree attitude " I am not looking I am not gonna do anything for thar"?

lusitana: I've read your post and suspect you are a gregarious, talkative and cute extrovert. Those type of ppl tend not to get what shyness is.. Why do you have to come up with words after saying hi to her? Why can't you just start by saying hi to people and being happy when they say hi back, and work your way up from there? --- Cuz saying just Hi means not much. I just dont know what to say after that Hi... thats why. I am sure you do not initiatie randowm convo still.. just in case I ask you: what do you say after Hi? Al, I taught myself to not think by the same method I taught myself to lucid dream. --- I think people who got lucid dreaming even didnt realize at first what agreat think they learnt! Anyway, this is awesome! The key to lucid dreaming is to constantly ask yourself.. " am I dreaming?" How can it help with "not thinking"? Constantly ask myself "am I thinking? I am lost. As for cynicism and Ladder Theory, yeah, it's a cynical outlook that fits many of life's situations. Realism: "Things didn't work out between them." Cynical spin control: "He found a chick so much hotter and bought her with his Porsche." Goopy happy spin control: "They mistook their strong feelings for romance and decided in the end to just be best friends, but they're so grateful for the experience." All of the opinions are valid --- Yeah, it is interesting that some people just would say "they are just dreaming... it is not real. Real is what you see. That is real. And everyone has its own reality... ...Although, when reality is so active that poke you in your stomach (or below) you would immediately wake up and find "common denominator" with others who basically poking at you. You join their reality...or even they made you join it. What I am talking about? All these views depends on how comfortable we feel in one reality of another, what we believe in... Example: if you go to church, live in TX and didnt go to college it is incredible comfortable to believe that current war situation is fair, it is even necessary. Just an example.

I guess I got you. You r saying those dudes are just like satellites: always around but dont reallu touch your mind\soul... See.. maybe you just somehow like this situation? Why? Look, I'm always trying to be a bit more nosey than others.. and ask more personal questions etc etc and reveal more about myself. I cant say it works like magic, but it definitely make me closer to my friends. Although recently I have trouble to find any friends.. just dont know ppl here and most folks are too busy. I am still wondering though: why is it better to move to another place? There you would not have ANY friends or acquintances. I persist cuz I am in kinda that situation: moved and have no one even to talk to.

So the answer is becoming more obvious: plan a date where you dont have to say something constantly. Simple example: a museum. When you are in there, it is hard to speak, when you are out - you have enough to talk about, besides it is almost like an end of the date. But still I believe if you really really like her, the convo would flow well.

DragonGirl, you seem like an exprert in conversations. What do u think might be a good convo opener in malls/stores?

I can get to the first full conversation after asking someone out, which either consists of meeting for a drink, or talking for an hour on the phone. And when I ask to meet again, they usually say yes. But I'm completely lost for words on a second date! After the first date, we've already covered the basics, like family, friends, activities, school/work, etc., so I always feel like I'm scrambling to find something to talk about. Plus, I have absolutely no idea on a good topic that would help move us forward into something more meaningful. --- I think just from my experience: if you experience real problems on a second date with convo I dont think you are very compatible. It is like a sign. You can continue up to 10th date, but the compatibility is not gonna appear. So it is simple: you feel completely stuck on 2nd date, well.. move on.. to another girl. By the way, you said you have dates. Where do you meet girls?

Ceema-k: As for random chats with strangers... "Excuse me..." - "Do you have the time?" (hide your watch first) - "Do you know when the mall closes?" - "I noticed you went to [shop name]... where can I find that store?" - "Do you know where the public restroom is?" If you're in a store, waiting in line: "Wow, it's pretty busy today huh?" "That [product item] looks nice. How much is it?" "I really like your shoes [or replace with whatever general thing you notice about someone]" Hmm I find these openers quite good. Easy to say and very natural. Although main drawback here is they are kind isolated... Look: "Do you know where the public restroom is? "Over .. there" "...mmmm???" Here I am stuck, very hard to add somthing after this question. I thought random convo should be oriented on females...and have some possibility of continuing convo. Did you try those? What did you say after the first question? Were ppl willing to continue talking at all? Just curious...

Im kinda in the situation your in, only im a complete loner. Im not into sports, buying cd's, clothes etc. that most people do. As a result i think this is the reason I feel insecure around women my age because I feel weird, but only when Im around others my age. --- I guess you dont have to have all these common interests like cd and clothes. You dont need to talk to most people. Just to some of them. The only thing Ive been planning on doing to fix this problem is to move to another area, job and all, and just start all over meeting new people. --- Interesting, would not it make it worse? Start from scratch means you'll lose even friends you had before... Also, I think the key may be how many guy friends you have. or your Social Circle. If you regularly associate with enough guy friends, meeting more and more, im hoping, that one of those guy friends will show up with a female friend or family member,and if you all get to conversing together she might like you. You r absolutely right. I dont even know many people here..I even work alone (not my choice). So it owuld be interesting to hear how it is possible to develop Social CIrcle in general..

In a nutshell: guys dislike to be too emotional cuz: 1. Women would saysomthing like "What is it with ya? you whine like...you dont behave like a guy!" 2. Guys would not say maybe but would think the same: "What is it with ya? You are whine like.. a girl! Guys dont whine!" Is he opens up he'll risk to receive these statements immediately from both sexes.

Yes exactly....I'm sure in your head, you're thinking, that sounds stupid. Okay, so if that, think about if a girl came up to you and said that ....are you going to reject her that quickly? or are you just going to talk? You think too many people aren't willing to learn, when in reality most people love meeting other people and learning more about them. ..and if I doesn't go the way you planned, dont take it personally, just keep moving and approaching other people. More people will respond well to your approach than mean b/c it always takes a little inner push to get yourself to walk up to random people and say hi. All this boils down to a good convo opener. Words, phrases... etc. What should I say to a person I see for the first time and have not information about ner nor about her interestes or preferences?

It's great you go to the mall so often. Tons of people there. But why not spice up the routine next time? Next time you're there, make it a point to visit every store in one area and talk to one saleperson. When a sales clerk approaches you and asks how you are, respond with "Great! How's your day going?" You'd be surprised at how many people loosen their "retail sales persona" and start chatting with you casually. --- Really? Usually a clerk would approach and say something like "How can I help you?", "Find everything alright?" etc.. If I say anything besides the goods they r selling the clerk would move on... I have never tried though to come up with a phrase. Have you? what are the results? Random conversations with strangers is just that. Random! With any given person in any given situation, there will always be openers for a short, random exchange of words. --- Oh, so what are they - the openers? The trick is observing people and being aware of your surroundings. And you know what? That means redirecting your own thoughts from within outward. Instead of worrying about WHAT you will say or HOW.. just refocus your attention to what other people around you are doing. --- I agree abotu focusing but most people just doing nothing I noticed... walking.. staring at something. My creativitiy doesn not work at all in situation with those fast moving strangers...

In a way approaching someone you don't know is irreversible. The moment you say "Hey" you've commited. Back to my plane analagy: You can jump up in your seat while taxiing and throw a fit, they'll go back to the terminal Getting up and throwing a fit is even scarier than sitting your butt in the chair and taking off. Your analogy very is good in the sense of descriing the process of conquering fear. But regarding approahing it is not the same at all: Look: I said "Hey" she "Hi"...and she continued walking... I dont have much to say and scared so chase her... thats it. Even if "Hi, hows it going?" "She" Good", and continue browsing her book. I am on the verge.. I have to come up with some words right away and I am scared... I see no irreversibility here really.

Annie: Trust me - I'm not an exception. I'm in a PhD biochemistry program. 50% of the people in my program are women. There are lots of women in computer science, physics, engineering, chemistry, and other "male-dominated" fields. Things are starting to even out. But yes, I do like candles, and soft pink fluffy things too. But, I like the examples you were giving below. Just ask her about that book she's picking up. Nice, natural convos. --- Oh I am not complaining about girl's preferences at all. It is all good. (But I am kinda still curious how can you love candles..when I walk in a candle shop I seem cannot breath... ) Anyway, I was just wondering what are non aggressive starters for a convo. So i got it'd ok to ask her" Hi, what book you are readin..." without possibility of having a reply"why? it is non of your business". Or like in grocery dept " Hi, what sort of cheese\bread\muffins you like?"

Caldus: Fear of rejection can be solved by doing the above as well. If you always lean on your strengths and not worry about what women want, then you won't worry about whether they think you're interesting or not. Yep. Just you see...if you dont get many dates, or any dates you anway would start worry about each woman you see and what she wants. Less women, more worry. More worry even less women... vicious cycle. So about worry. I recently got a talking book" Worry". They r saying there 3 basic cures for worry: 1. theraphy 2. physical exercise 3. medication.

For the most part I think women want a man who will be strong and speak up and tell us when we are wrong or being brats. ---- Oh thats right. I very much agree with that! Women should not allow a man to walk all over us and hurt us because we love him. Love is no excuse. --- It is not like walk all over. It is just that for a jerk it is easier to get a date, cuz he is not boring, adventureous and he is a challenge! In the long term he doesnt have that many advantages over a nice guy. Still I think a nice guy mostly is perceived as boring and unexicing alternative to go on a date with. But of course a date and a relationship are different things.

If being able to say you can do it isn't the reason, then what is? --- Hmm.. to approach a girl who I like, in order to chat with her and if it goes well, het her number\email, then set up a date... am I clear on this? I'm guessing that it's so you can find a girl to have a relationship with. If I'm mistaken, sorry and feel free to correct me. But if that is the case then I think I see where you are coming from. The more you look for love, the less you'll find it. Love is something that happens when you least expect it to. Plenty of people find the right person while they are doing nothing more than going on with there daily lives. --- ok, so I quit even thinking about approahing. Ok. How will I a girl then? My friends do not party, most are married. So I dont even go to social events since I dont know about any. Every girl that I've liked, the feelings developed from our friendship. I've never had to think about approaching a girl or having one approach me. --- How did you meet them? Or all of them approached you? Go on with your life, do what you enjoy doing, be who you are, and don't stress or worry about this. Dont find love, let love find you. Sorry I am confused a little here. Do you adivse here o stop even approaching girls? then I will never ever meet any. I dont see it is good though.

Let's say you're afraid of flying, but you really want to go to hawaii for vacation. You put off flying somewhere until it gets to the point where you decide to go for it. You buy a ticket to hawaii and jump on the plane. You're freaking terrified, but you know what? The plane takes off, flies to hawaii, and lands. Nothing bad happens. Each time you fly after that you get a little more used to it until it's the same as jumping in your car to take a trip downtown. --- Thats a very good example. And it is right it can be overcome by repetion of the actual situation. Talking to women is no different. While being in an airplance you can ACTUALLY die; talking to women just makes you FEEL like you're going to die. --- Again thats a very good observation. Now you'll probably say 1. you're not afraid of flying, or 2. there are drugs for that, or 3. some people never get over their fear of flying. --- I am sorry but it seems like you hadne had a chance to fly for looong time. Why? Look, the fear starts at takeoff. I do dislike that moment bit. But what can I do? I am buckled up and surrounded with other guys around me. I cannot even move much. When flying, I cant just stop the plane and return to my home. See, once I bought a ticket and got on a plane, (which is easy and doesnt require too much efforts or conquering fears) they forced me to go through all flying situations. In approaching I have to struggle with fear at each second, at each stage...it just drains my spirit. Bottom line is that fear is our mind telling us something has a POSSIBILITY of going wrong, but throughout our lives we eventually, through repetition, show our minds that somethings just aren't worth being afraid of. --- Thats all good. Now come a question: How we can through repetion show our minds approaching is ok? Unfortunately it is not like flying where once you r in, you cant go back. Any idea how to make approaching irreversible? I forget to add: I amnot afraid of talking to women. I am afraid of approaching a female stranger and start a cono with her. It is much different frm just talking to women you already know.

I'm getting the picture that you tend to worry about things alot. You overthink things --- Thats right. and have managed to convince yourself that if you ask a girl she will be mean and put you down. --- Hmm.. you see, I didnt do that on purpose. Besides it seems to me I didnt do that at all.. But my fear certainly did. But that won't happen. Most girls will be polite and nice. You've said so yourself, they are wired that way. You see... being on a date is kinda an established ritual, and yes girl are wired to make it at least decent and polite, which is good. The thing is in approahcing they see a total stranger, and they still do remember that strangers are not the best ppl in the world. "Don talk strangers!" we heard that from parents. So girl may even want to _discourage_ a stranger from continuing his attempt to hcat her up by saying/doin somehting which is not polite at all. She thinks she is in danger! ... and on a date there is no strangers. She is safe and polite. You've had dates, so it's not like you don't know what your doing. --- Dates do not help in approaching. I have never approached a girl without first knowing some info about her. Then it is easy to start talking... Something has to be attractive about you or you wouldn't have had those dates to begin with. So what is there to worry about? Even if the girl doesn't want to go out, you made the effort and thats what counts. You are letting your fears get the best of you. --- We again talking about conscious and subconscious mind. Do you have fear of heights? No? well, climb up to Sears sky tower in Chicago, and get outside the deck. Step up to the rail and look down. You still dont have the fear of heights? If it happens you do.. tell me what r u afraid of? you have a metal rail in front of you, you just cant fall down. I know there is othing to worry about. It is clear. It is logical. But fear doesn care about my logic unfortunately... Fear is a logical thing. --- I dont think so. If yesm then we wouldbe able to easily control our fears. Back to what I was saying before, don't worry about approaching anyone. Why don't you just talk to the girls you know. Chat with them and be friendly like normal. For all you know, one of them could have a crush on you. Maybe by talking to them and getting to know them, one of yourfriends can grow into a relationship. Then you can avoid any awkwardness of approaching someone because you are around people that make you comfortable and who you know wouldn't run away like you fear. And even if a relationship doesn't start anytime soon, does that really matter? I know how it feels to want a relationship, but why not enjoy the advantages of being single? --- On a date you mean? I did that of course. It was fine. I didnt worry much. If you are talking about female friends, well I dont know know anyone here who are friends. I talk to girls in some sort of official settings but I gguess it does count. And I dont have problem chat with girls in general. I cannot approach them. That is the problem.

I think your missing the point on what the truth is. Women do want a polite nice guy, they want someone who will treat them right. --- I am not saying they want impolite guy. And yes u r right in the end they want to be treaed nice. Althgough when it comes to dating, a nice guy doesnt have a chance. He is not excinting, adventurous or interesting. He gaves her no New exciting feelings...Obviously most women would date somebody who can give all of that to them. Not a nice guy.

what if she say "go f*..."? What if she just ruun away? Or make me blush like a tomato? Then it's the end of the world. --- Yes, it is. How do I know? My fear tells me that each second... I hate it, but cant just "surgically" remove this fear. Seriously, I don't think any girl will ever say that to you. She's got some serious issues if that's the first thing that comes out of her mouth. So what if she runs away? Her loss. --- Let me ask you: how do you know allof these? you read my post, you think.. you recall some of your experience.. all are very conscious things. Fear that we all have is not a logic thing. it does not think, it just forcefully make me aware of some possible events and makes me worry. Fear is separated from consciousness I think. We cant just say "hey consciousness, here tht ... fear is going crazy. Give him more info and straghten it up." It is no gonna happen like this... At least she didn't try to say anything to you in that case. And I think some girls find the blushing to be cute so why turn that into a problem as well? --- Man, I dont know why fear thinks that way (even if you knew it wont help. I am looking for a cure rather than why fear thinks this or that). Yes it is my fear but I cant figure out how to curb it. Now iamgine: you wear your best smile, apply you best cologne and say "Hi! I noticed you r reading about Napoleon... I am very interested in Napoleon, but he is not french at all... He is Napoleon Dynamite! Haha!" what you see is she is just running away.... You would feel ok after that to approach anothr girl? that'd be spoiled... How do you ever expect to go on a date with a girl if you fear all of this? If you're scared of talking to girls, then how do you expect to not be scared ****less when you're on a date with her? --- Being on a date is easy. Why? She is kinda framed: she knows who I am (at least a bit) she is not gonna run away or scream or have her bf come up and yell at em. Nothing bad is gonna happen at all. Because she know it is a date, so she has to be a good girl. All girls are wired this way - to be polite and to keep a date going. Besides, I have been to enough dates, I got some experience so i dont freak out anymore. Approaching is a totally different matter as you know........

Ok dude - I think we're living on two different planets. I'm a female, I read non-fiction, I read history books, I read physics books. You will see other girls also reading history books, or picking up books on computers. We don't all make bee-lines to the self-help and organic cooking section. --- Well.. you r obviously an exception. 99% of girl I have seen do make a bee line to somehting like food\clothing\candles section. I love food and keep myself in shape, but dont care about clothing and hate candles... Well, if you don't have a sister, don't lie. But, what I'm trying to get at is you're better off approaching a girl with something that sounds natural than a cheesy pick up line. Why would going up to a girl and telling her that "male chefs are the best cooks?" turn her on? If a girl is reading a cooking book, then she likes to cook. Now a man comes up to her, and tells her that men are better chefs. What's that supposed to prove? Is that going to turn her on, or make her think that you're a pompous a**hole? If you are trying to impress her by telling her that you're a good cook, you're better off saying something like, "I have the best recipe for chili, ever!" --- Yes, as I saied that was lame example that mind mind doesn work at all in these situations. I thought I said it was a bad example,,, Anyway, to say somehting that would turn her on would require super skills. Saying something natural is not a turn on. But I agree it is good enough to start a convo. It is just difficult - I see she is in the cooking section and browsing omehting cooking related. But I don the cover and have no idea what is it about... (same if she is in history section... saying about chilli recipe sounds good only for specific occasions: if she is readin somethign related to it. Imagine: you browsing a book about cakes, here is that guy: Hi, I have the best recipe for chili, ever! and he is lying by the way he never even bothered to look for a recipe..). So I gotto come up with somehting general and yet natural. " Hi, do you know that natural organic food is ten times better, healthier to eat then the food we used to buy"? Is she is in history section "Hi, are you into history? My older bro is a history teacher!"... Too pompous? Me Me Me? " Hi... what is it you reading? History of...? really? I always was interested in history. Is this book interesting.. what is it about?"

Women claim what is acceptable to claim. It has almost nothing do to with what people really want. Woman want kids and want them to survive. So they want sombody who will provide material and other support for that. Now imagine a woman would say: I want a man who'll take care of my kids. How many men would respond? I am not sure what you mean is mean. I think men would definitely feel better if they are told the truth: she expect him to have a job! (instead o saying I ust want a polite nice guy - it is Mean to say that cuz it is not true. If somebdy want a polite nice guy, any female friend would be better than any guy). Yes, many men would be scared by that truth (or some other truth). But I am sure in this way she'll find the man she is looking for who will love her no matter what. The truth is good, is it? when a man is told one thing then she expects somehtign else from him he feels trapped. I dont think it is conducive to unconditionl love.. or a healthy marriage with emotionally healthy kids.

Hi Al - Maybe you should just spend time with female friends for a while - get comfortable with females. Hate to break it to you, but I don't think that asking a person out is the hardest aspect of dating. I mean, you still have to go on that date with them! And even they agree to go out with you doesn't mean that they like you - only that they're giving you a chance. --- Annie, I am sorry I blah-blah here too much. Somewhere in this looon topic I mentined I have no problem tlking to a girl or go on a date. It is easy since I already know her a bit so I can easily ask her somehting and hold a convo. But when I dont know her ans she may not be even willing to listen to me in store\street, I feel terrified and that fear just kills all my skills to come up with any convo opener or even just to walk up to her. what if she laugh at me? (On a date she wont!!), what if she say "go f*..."? What if she just ruun away? Or make me blush like a tomato? PS - Ever watch "King of the Hill?" In case you don't, there's an episode where Hank wants his son, Bobby, to learn how to approach girls. So, he sends him out with Boomhauer, the local ladies man. Boomhauer and Bobby go to a shoe store. Boomhauer hits on every woman who walks by. Finally, after 22 rejections, the 23rd gives him her phone number! That's his trick! I think that approaching girls is a numbers game. You just have to keep asking them out - some will say yes, some will say no. I honestly honestly believe that even Brad Pitt would get turned down once in a while. --- I watch King of the Hill, but seems missed the most important part Coping with fear of rejection when you alreayd can walk up and start a convo - is different and easy. You already know what to do, just kinda tired of rejections. But I cant even walk up and say somehting meaningful....