Post-Hibernation

I thought about posting in my old journal rather than creating a new thread, but it felt like I was trying to build a home, a life, in a mausoleum. I look back at that time and that PTH and I realize I've changed in so many ways (for the better). So what's changed? It's hard to present people with a succinct synopsis. Television shows can cram a whole season into a 2 minute reel; it's an impressive skill -- I'll give it a try.

My "grinding" ultimately paid off -- I was offered and accepted a position at an international public accounting firm. Now I have job security, good pay, benefits, solid coworkers, prestige, and the chance for upward mobility. I have a chance to excel in a real career. I feel fortunate -- I know that there is a long line of people who wanted but did not receive this chance. I worked hard. I wouldn't flinch at the suggestion that I've earned it, but I still feel fortunate. It's a surreal feeling. So many of my fears were centered around not receiving an opportunity like this and now it's in my lap. Crazy. Just crazy.

I've been "underground" for a long time. I felt like I couldn't make myself known to people when I was living in reduced circumstances. I didn't want to reemerge until I felt like I was "somebody." Silly? Perhaps. I've made a lot of improvements in a lot of areas but I'm still proud and stubborn. I don't start my job until I finish my degree in the spring, but I feel like it's time to open myself up a little bit. I've always played my cards close to my chest. I've been more of a tactician than a person.

I've settled for merely scratching the surface of my interpersonal relationships for a long time. Maybe it's time to try something a little different. I don't have "goals" in mind. I think it's more of an orientation than anything else. I don't want people to think I'm cold, but I know most people would describe me as aloof. I've got the gift of the gab but that's frustrated people more than anything else -- especially women. I'm not predatory but I am assertive. I do listen. I've been going to the mall and sitting in coffee shops reading books and sometimes women will ask questions about what I'm reading. I'll answer her questions and sometimes I see the "switch" flip, and when it does I see someone looking for stimulation -- intellectual, emotional, whatever. We talk for a while. I sit there and I know I could ask for her number. I know when I've been invited to attempt to make a connection, and it's not always romantic/sexual. In fact, I'd say most of the time it's not -- it's just an intrigue. It's a curiosity. It's a good 10 second intro to a song and the listener has agreed to hear the rest if I let her.

I just never do. Male, female, friend, or a potential date...it doesn't matter. I pull the plug. I have been satisfied just knowing I could make it happen if I wanted it. It's been nothing more than a test of capacity for me. I've treated people and life like a game that you could win with a certain set of skills, but the people and the players have been glorified CGI to me. I wasn't callous -- there was just a self-imposed barrier between us. They were on the other side of TV screen.

I don't think I want to do that anymore. What if I tried something different? What if OZ came out from behind the curtain long enough to display courage, a brain, and a heart? I think I can do that. I think I'm okay with trying. If they click their heels three times and send me home then no one can say I played it safe in Kansas.

I don't usually hang out in the Journals section, but happen to see this is the "New Posts" and just wanted to say, good to see you back, awesome post and congrats on the job too. Hopefully we'll see more posts here in the future. I wish you well.

Thanks. I think it's beneficial for me to flush things out of my system so I'll post as needed, lol.

I've made a lot of improvements in a lot of areas but I'm still proud and stubborn.

Am I interpreting this correctly, then, that you feel these are areas where improvement is lagging, but warranted and desirable? lol

Thanks. I think it's beneficial for me to flush things out of my system so I'll post as needed, lol.

Awesome. I'll have to take the occasional sneak peek in the Journals section from now on, lol.

Am I interpreting this correctly, then, that you feel these are areas where improvement is lagging, but warranted and desirable? lol

Those two attributes have given me a lot more than they have taken away. They might be double-edged swords, but the side facing me isn't as sharp.

Being the owner of a few double-edged swords myself (stubborness being one), I know what you're saying. But may I just submit to you the notion that at 46, I am still honing that edge, to improve the way I wield the sword, because there are so many ways you can go wrong with it and use the wrong side, actually thinking at the time that it's benefiting you. I realize that, observing myself, not just accepting "the way it is." It wouldn't be a double-edged sword if you were never misusing it, and were always aware of how you were using it. It's good not to be too proud of one's double-edged swords. Kind of like a lion tamer should never develop the hubris that makes him forget he's working with a beast.

Which brings me to pride...I see pride as a whole different ballgame. It's fine to feel for a moment that you've earned something good, and are "proud" (really a feeling of happiness over an accomplishment) of the job you did. It's fine to feel "proud" on behalf of someone you care about who has had some victory. But beyond that, pride is a direct handmaiden of the ego -- the ego being a structure within us that needs to fulfill a powerful and compulsive narcissistic craving (and without getting into some big philosophical treatise, is a sham entity). The sole purpose of pride and the ego are to build up and prop up the Self (an elusive, ethereal hallucination we carry around and fixate on) and have that admired. I see pride as an antidote or prophylaxis to its flip-side, which is shame. Shame being the flagellation and defiling of the ego. And as you'll recall what Brene Brown said (in a video I posted in your other journal), shame is a purely toxic emotion. It's NEVER beneficial. Guilt over a wrong done is appropriate. But shame is absolutely corrosive. I think you've experienced this phenomenon. So I'm saying pride is just an extension of that. It can NEVER be beneficial or worthwhile, because it's built around forces that are as detrimental as they are a charade. As a motivator, I see it as a stand-in for attributes and methods that can get you to the same goals but not through a toxic and illusory filter. I'd challenge you to think of a time when pride for you never exacted a heavy price in the toxic byproducts and co-existing collateral damage.

I know you'd say it's this process that has worked to your advantage. What I'd say to that is, I guess here, a good analogy would be stealing. I could learn to be a very clever thief and wind up "owning" a lot of beautiful or cool things. And someone could ask me, do you think it's good that you're a thief? And I could say, "Well, look at all that being a well-practiced, nimble thief has brought me. I wouldn't have all this stuff without being one." And of course, my answer would be...you mean you don't see any better ways of acquiring things? This is the only way? I don't think so.

You'd have a pretty hard time convincing the thief, though, of his blind spot, if it's working so well in his view. To him, nothing's broke, so why fix it. (Until one day it catches up with him and he finds himself bent over with handcuffs behind his back.)

I wouldn't advocate wearing one's faults as a badge of honor, either. I don't think I'd quarrel with the notion that pride is a kind of "junkie energy." I know that plenty of other people are motivated by other things, and these things are probably much cleaner for one's mental engine.

Personally, I don't want to fix what isn't broken, and the consequences of pride won't send me to jail. I have my own code. I have my own filter. I don't think pride and shame are always inappropriate things to feel at any one point. Guilt is fine but shame (for a time) is penance. To feel it indefinitely is obviously wrong, but to dwell on it briefly teaches you meaningful lessons.

Pride is the reason I can do things that other can't. Pride is the reason I don't have social or test anxiety. Pride is the reason I can speak in front of crowds without fear. Pride keeps me from settling for anything less than my best. Shame briefly holds me accountable when I fail and I learn my lesson.

I wouldn't trade either of these things for alternative sources of energy. In fact, I don't think that a life sans pride is much of a life at all -- it's not one I want to live anyway. I am willing to live with everything that comes with it.

Well...not to belabor it, but I'm not sure whether you're saying you see pride as a "fault" or an asset...I don't see how it can be both.

Shame as penance. Hmmm. Well I associate shame with the feeling that I am defective and flawed as a human being -- it's a feeling of self-loathing. And self-loathing is kind of like cigarette smoke -- there is zero amount of it that can be healthy or good. As Brene said, it's not "I made a mistake" but I AM a mistake. Or I am broken, defective. You could even say, "I'm ashamed I made that mistake", but it would be a different vibe from carrying the feeling of shame. Shame is a deeper, more penetrating, more encompassing level of self-recrimination, and so it's hard for it to be a quick affair. I also think the kinds of shame you've expressed here and felt have been profound and protracted, not fleeting moments. So you have not cultivated something productive of efficiency, but something soul-killing. You've pulled through DESPITE your shame, which has been quite dangerous.

All the positive changes you've made I attribute to your finally believing you're worth good things, and taking a chance on your own worth -- the opposite of shame.

I'd say guilt over correctly perceived wrongs is penance enough, and more workable.

Feeling unpresentable to people until you "become somebody"...that's an extension of shame. And what good has that done for you? Could you have accomplished the same goals and success as you have without hiding from people in this kind of "I'm unworthy" shame and pride? What did "hibernating" from people accomplish in terms of making you more fit for the world? Would thinking, "I'm climbing towards where I want to be, and in the meantime, I'll respect myself as I am now" have derailed you from the mission? Made you more unfit, unequipped?

What did projecting other people's judgments onto yourself (taking on a collective message), out of your own sense of pride, accomplish? How did projecting those thought processes and judgments onto people who do not share them serve you? How was that necessary or helpful?

How was it necessary to your success to consider yourself as someone shamed by "reduced circumstances"? Without that construct, who and what would you have been? A lazy and unambitious bum, satisfied to remain at status quo? Is that who you are?

Did the circumstances you were in make you more or less of the person who has changed them?

And how did all that help your feelings of isolation that you've described as so eviscerating?

One has to wonder if you have felt the need to shame and pride yourself just to reinforce who and what you are not (i.e., all those around you who you see as lesser)...not as a reflection of yourself as you actually are. So, judgments you've held of others turned inside out, and on yourself. Could a quiet confidence and self-knowing and determination have been enough, minus the ridiculing pain shame and pride inflicted?

Just on a personal note, I don't have much in the way of social anxiety. I'm an odd blend of slightly introverted, with a highly gregarious streak. But I can hold my own in company and with all sorts of people, and I come off as confident and lively. But pride has absolutely no presence in any of that. It's just natural exuberance. Test-taking anxiety I have always had to varying degrees, as well as the fear of public speaking, and I can trace those roots to severe and harsh shaming and criticism, and needing to prove myself. So pride and shame in spades. Therefore, I don't get your connection there. Shame and pride do not remove doubt and fear, they increase it. So be careful how you're attributing those kinds of qualities, if you're talking in some general conceptual sense. Likewise, I don't correlate pride with the reasons I've been able to do things others haven't, or my work ethic, or what drives me at all. I do have elements of pride, but my primary motivators in life are wanting to do things well for the sake of the best outcomes. That's really not to do with pride, except briefly in the sense I described above (as in, "I feel glad I did such a good job, I like myself right now"). Pride is not a motivator, though...the best outcome itself is.

So I am still not sold on your reasons for why it's indispensable to your desired outcomes. It's almost like you don't trust your personality on its own merits to provide sufficient prompts. You see these egotistic, internal layers of punishment and reward as essential to your MO, the carrot and stick. I think you're not giving yourself enough credit to be able to do without them and still be completely competent. You're giving them a lot of power and status at the table that they don't deserve.

Furthermore, when it comes to interpersonal dynamics, pride and shame are absolute cyanide...and so cultivating them within you and being fine with them sets up a filter by which relating to yourself and others will fall into a "win or lose" paradigm, just as you've used these as tools before...and that doesn't work well translated into people matters. But your mind is still going to be operating in that dualistic program -- I either come out ahead/on top (I've got my pride intact), or I am the one down (I've been humiliated). That's when the poisonous quality will be most apparent and an obstacle.

When I feel moments of pride...usually I identify a self-protection that has stopped caring about my impact. It's just a little cobblestone on the road to Hell.

Just to add:

Shame and pride do not remove doubt and fear, they increase it.

In case this seems like an empty declaration, and one untrue for you...

Ask yourself how much fear has played a role in your life during the "grinding process". Ask yourself if shame and pride weren't used IN ORDER TO CREATE FEAR, OR TO PERPETUATE IT.

As if fear could be the only way to achievement, and without it, you'd fall apart as a dissolute mess.

And looking at the flip side, and your post again...I know of a lot of people, some of them world icons, who speak to great crowds with no fear, but pride isn't how they get that done. I'd love to overcome my fear of speaking...and I hope I don't have to become prideful to do so.

I'd settle on a sense of conviction -- which I noticed overcame the fear and dissolved it, when I actually performed well. When I was purely intent on my message, not on my own self-image (pride) I wasn't afraid and I did much better.

If you say "...in the meantime I'll respect myself as I am now," then you are not going to be as frantically and fanatically dedicated to success. Alexander the Great burned the boats upon arrival on the shores of Persia. They were going to win or they were going to die. That is the way I approach things. Being satisfied with who you are if who you are is unimpressive is the quickest route to complacency. There is no urgency in that approach. Therefore, I can't advocate it. I hear too many lazy people on a day-to-day basis say that they are happy with who they are; if a little shaming would drag them out of their delusion and inspire them to do something (even for the wrong reasons) then it would be well worth it. I know a few step-siblings who would surely benefit from a taste of it when all I ever hear is how proud they are of their kingdom of ashes.

I rarely feel guilty. When I was living in a small apartment making $2000 a month and going to school full time there was no reason to apologize to anyone. Did I respect myself at that time? No. Did I dislike myself? No again. I was doing the only thing I could do and I knew it was the right decision, but respect is a strong word. I respect myself now because I burned the boats and won this particular battle. That is worthy of respect. I have no desire to pat myself on the back for my good intentions until a positive outcome is realized. The positive outcome is what demands respect.

Show me a guy who says "I want to be successful at this job, but whether I succeed or fail I am still me, and that "me" is worthy of respect and love" and I'll show you a guy that I'm going to outwork. It's the difference between "tomorrow is another day" and "there is no tomorrow." If shame is the self-flagellating whip that makes you outrun the people next to you then it is worth the scars. You just have to be able to live with all of its implications. It can't be so crippling that you are stagnant. I can surrender to it for a time without capitulating anything important.

I would have always tried to improve my circumstances irrespective of my mental approach to all of this. There's no way to twist my rubik's cube in a way that would result in me settling for some POS job. There's no way I would have ever been lazy. However, my zealous approach to my studies and my commitment to being successful these past couple years dwarfs the level of motivation I had in undergrad, and this is a product of the fear brought on by shame. Yes, shame DOES increase fear, but fear does not cripple me. It does not paralyze me. It reveals to me what could happen if I fail and it's intolerable. Therefore, failure is not an option. I will guard against every contingency. I'll cover bases that the "I am happy with who I am regardless" guy won't even consider. That is why I call it a double-edged sword. It's both an asset and a liability and it's driven me to heights I could not have anticipated.

I don't feel isolated anymore. When I was in the gutter I had the gutter for company, and I didn't want to tie myself to those people. My circle is about to be much different.

You and I just view this differently. If I told you that you could reach x or y goals running on the junkie yet powerful energy of shame and fear then would you take that offer? Maybe you would say that the journey means more than the destination and that no business or scholastic accomplishment is worth it if it's facilitated by getting high on pride and shame. My guess would be that you are far more concerned about the process than the goal but the inverse is true for me.

I don't separate pride and shame from my personality. They are as much a part of me as my sense of humor or anything else. Asking me to separate them to assess the merits of my true personality is too esoteric for me. I don't view pride and shame as guests in my home.

Far be it from me to tell you or anyone else how successful people manage to do things like succeed in business or speak to crowds. It would be the height of arrogance to say that the only way they accomplish these things is by mirroring my approach. I have told you why I can do these things and nothing more. I am positive that plenty of people manage to do these things without relying on pride or shame, but their approach is often uninspiring and unpersuasive to me, just as my pitch for the uses of pride and shame will not encourage you to weaponize them in your life. If we each tried to emulate the other person's approach then we would be nothing more than cheap knockoffs of the real thing. We would be nothing more than two unwilling disciples of an approach in which we had no faith.

I don't see how that's a better option for you or me.

My dad has been acting strangely. I feel like we're reaching the point where he can no longer understand my point of view. I thought we had known each other far too long for either of us to surprise the other with any one comment. He seems to be softening up as he ages -- not that he was ever harsh or particularly verbally critical, but he seems to have relaxed his standards.

My brother and I still can't believe he remarried the woman that he did. We have had a hard time reconciling the fact that we are tangibly linked to this woman and her family, which is filled with a bunch of lazy and jobless substance abusers. I know that you marry the woman and not her children, but if all of her children are catastrophic failures then shouldn't that be used as a means of evaluating the woman? Can you really not hold her accountable at all for the horrific job she's done?

We stand as a stark contrast. We were stellar students. My brother is ex-military. I have already secured a job. Dad was a hard-working businessman for decades. Why would he go slumming? I know it sounds bourgeois to phrase it in that way, and I don't want to present myself as having lived the life of a wealthy one percenter, but we have always valued a strong work ethic and success. How could you marry someone that doesn't value that AT ALL?

I think he was just afraid. I don't know why he NEEDS a life partner so badly but Dad is just not very good at being alone. For all his spartan-like stoicism, this is a man who has decided to live in a house filled with people who exemplify every attribute he dislikes save for one -- acceptance. Acceptance. Of course they are accepting -- if any one person turned a critical eye to this place they would have nothing but negative things to say. If they can't perpetuate the delusion of familial happiness by thrusting their heads in the sand then the whole damn thing would fall apart.

It's difficult for me to hide my contempt for these people. I have to hold my Dad accountable for the decisions that he has made. He chose to marry her. He's the one who has tried to drive his train off the tracks, but this association has been bad for him. My brother and I are strong enough that their horrific example does not affect us. We know who we are and what we want and if they want to hang around us then they are going to have to get their lives in order. Conversely, dad has fallen to their level in many ways. He feels as if he has no right to judge people and prune the negative influences from his life. He sees no meaningful difference between a man who makes the occasional well-intentioned mistake and an ex-felon -- they are just two flawed people who can't turn their nose up at anyone.

That's all very well and good and we'd play a song from Mr. Rogers on the flute to celebrate his tolerance, but it's an attitude that belies the way the world works. You are the company you keep, and we are who we pretend to be. If he wants to spend all day engaged in false equivalencies that bring him down to the level of miscreants then that is his business, but it is not our job as dutiful sons to applaud this mistake like a couple of morons. We can't tell him what to do, but he shouldn't ask us to celebrate the fact that he scraped up a woman from the bottom of the barrel just because he was afraid. That's not what he taught us to do and that won't be the legacy he leaves with us.

My brother and I are chasing the most conventional incarnation of the American Dream (materiality and success) because we've had front row seats to the family life of a group of people who dwell in an American Stupor. I'll never let any of this happen to me.

Speaking of speaking anxiety, haha, I have a presentation tomorrow that I'm all adrenaling out having to prepare. Wheeee....

So I hope you don't mind my just dropping in to say that I might have to back up to say something about your post #11 later.

For now, I wanted to ask...about your dad: you say you think he's compromised or lowered his standards. Is that just about other people? Or has he also started to lower his standards for himself (how he comports himself, his work ethic, his values, etc.)?

Here's a thought too, just to ponder.

What if we were to assume that life has no purpose, and that the meaning we ascribe to it is utterly arbitrary. Which means that no person is inherently more important, and nor can they hope to achieve more importance, than anyone else. A completely nihilistic POV. How then can any one person's accomplishments or lack of accomplishments make any kind of meaningful statement about who they are? How can that kind of tool measure something (importance) that doesn't exist?

Not meaning to be rude, but your father and his wife have a right to their life together without grownup kids from either side spending a lot of time in their home. The thing is too, that grownup children will see it as THEIR home too usually, but technically, that isn't really the case - not usually.

Not meaning to be rude, but your father and his wife have a right to their life together without grownup kids from either side spending a lot of time in their home. The thing is too, that grownup children will see it as THEIR home too usually, but technically, that isn't really the case - not usually.

I agree with you and I don't think there's anything rude about your statement. When I first relocated here (my Dad "beat" me to the state by about 18 months) I lived alone. I could only guess at how dysfunctional his environment was from the time we spent together whenever we'd all go see a local band at a bar on Friday night.

As I was making the final "push" to complete my degree, I was coming up on a lot of challenging classes simultaneously. I was going to have to take 5 very difficult classes for two semesters in a row and then I'd be finished. At this time, my apartment lease was expiring. Dad lived in a 3 story house with his wife and their mostly adult children and had an entire floor of space that was free. He told me to move in so that I could finish my degree quickly. It would have been hard to maintain a 4.0 GPA and work 40+ hours a week so I took him up on his offer.

We then relocated when that landlord decided to sell the home, and now I live out of a suitcase and have a couch to myself. I am not complaining. The alternatives were worse. However, I am under no delusion that this is my home. I have a car, some clothes, and a laptop to my name and that's it. I would not begin to tell anyone in this house what to do because my voice and my concerns are not important. Right now, I am nothing. When I graduate in May and begin my job, these past 2 years will be a distant and unpleasant memory. I will have the luxury of avoiding the people in this house who have given up on everything but drugs and alcohol.

My dad will never know a time where her children are out of the house. They have no money and no prospects and their parents have given them no ultimatums. In their shoes, I'd have been homeless for years. My Dad is strict, traditional, and has high expectations. My brother and I are simply confused as to why he would marry someone who is none of those things -- someone whose lackadaisical approach will result in him living with her kids indefinitely.

Again, it's his decision to associate with these people, but he has no right to then come and complain about it to us. We are leaving soon and we won't be back.

My dad is better than her...better than them. It is unfortunate that he has lost sight of this. That is my only point.

When Dad moved here he started partying with old friends again after having been out of that environment for 20+ years. He was very malleable and I think he was going to be drawn towards whatever his friends were doing. If he had spent time with the right people I think he'd have been less out of control, but he essentially met the worst people at the worst possible time. He got busted drinking and driving and ever since then he acts like this is some irreparable black mark against him, and now that his record is tainted he feels as if he has no right to ask anything of anyone.

I think he was probably in a position to start compromising many of his stated values when he moved here and he has no one else to blame for that, but he DID fuse his life with the worst possible family at the worst possible time. They bring the worst out of him. His work ethic is the same, and that's his saving grace.

I don't have to try to stand in the shoes of your hypothetical and imagine how I'd answer because your first sentence describes my point of view. I don't see why it necessarily leads to the rest of your conclusions. Life, like any game, can have any set of rules. The rules we live by are arbitrary, but if you provide me with the handbook then I'll outmaneuver people.

What you do is the only thing that matters to me when I evaluate someone. What someone says and what someone thinks they are means nothing to me. Action and inaction is what defines people. If you do nothing then you are nothing.

Okay, I see the way you're fitting the pieces together, with your dad. And how his accident/infraction might fit in with his changing value system.

I wonder if, on some level, he fully recognizes that he's kind of "gone astray"...and the DUI serves as a daily reminder in his mind that he has these frailties that you are here calling out. And seeing that in himself, he feels it would be completely hypocritical for him to hold others to standards that he, himself, has not been able to uphold to align with the "strong, principled" man he would like to have been in a more unblemished way.

I actually see this as a character strength, if it's at work, not a weakness. If that's the case, I see that as him being congruent with his values of practicing what he preaches -- in an inverted way, lol (not preaching if he can't practice it). Quite paradoxically, recognizing one's weaknesses and being able to then humble oneself IS a strength. Humility is a strength -- it requires you to give up the idea that you're so together, so grand, so perfect in your own vision for yourself, that you can't slip, you can't fall. And I do think humility does come with age, if you're a person who has held themselves to high standards at any point. You've lived long enough to see yourself slip and fall in ways you thought you wouldn't. In fact, holding oneself to a high standard REQUIRES HUMILITY, and so I see that as speaking to the dad that you have admired in the past. It speaks well for him that he sees he's not "above it all." No one should ever think that, and if they do, it's usually because they're too young to have that perspective of humility or else they're just blinded by their desperate ego needs (MY dad). This I think explains the mellowing out with age that you're seeing.

Although I certainly can't fathom starting a relationship with someone who has so botched their parenting as his wife has (it's a dealbreaker for me, it's just too close to the bone with all that I'm about), I'm wondering if it's just fear of being alone and "the path of least resistance" that drove him into her arms and keeps him there. I wonder if it's that he actually LOVES her...not just feels the need to ensure he's with SOMEone, but actually loves HER that has him staying in this situation. Which would kind of present a reasonable argument for him continuing to endure it, if in his current priorities, love and being loved trump absolute values of standing on principle. You know? I agree, if it's bugging him so much, though, that he's complaining about it...well, yeah, he should have thought that through and what are you supposed to do about it? Your dad is definitely someone who seems to do a good bit of leaping without looking, and is running often on an emotional autopilot...but if there's some genuine love and respect there (in other areas), it's more complicated than you're suggesting (especially if he knows of some mitigating circumstances in her most private life that you're not aware of).

What you do is the only thing that matters to me when I evaluate someone. What someone says and what someone thinks they are means nothing to me. Action and inaction is what defines people. If you do nothing then you are nothing.

I can agree with you that actions are what "speak" loudest. But again, I think you're over-simplifying. It's not ONLY actions, in my view. Not by a longshot. I see thoughts as the roots of an action -- sort of the beginning of a trajectory, and therefore critical parts of who and what we are, and what we manifest in deeds. Thoughts are the fuel. And fuel is as important as the vehicle. I can certainly think of things that would matter to me just in the realm of thought. For instance, this guy I was seeing (sort of) told me at one point of honest self-disclosure that while he thinks gay people (men, really) deserve to be happy and to be loved like anyone else, and have full rights and such, he personally does not want to hang out with them. He said being around gay men makes him uncomfortable, but bless them and he wishes them well. Well, that's just a thought about gay people. He's not harming them, he's not trying to oppose them in the things they want -- he's just the kind of homophobe that says, "I don't want to keep company with them because I see them as icky somehow, personally." And I do consider that a version of homophobia. It would be like someone saying, "I have nothing against (people of x race), I just don't want to have any (x race) friends or hang out with anyone who is of that race." Is that not racist in thought? That's a racist thought to me, and it offends me. You bet that matters to me. It mars you in my eyes, and I can't wipe that away, even if you're not out there spewing bigotry. And in this guy's case, the insult was compounded to me because he finds lesbian sex really erotic -- so it's a double standard (and a prevalent one, unfortunately). It's okay for two women to be sexual together, but not two men? You'd feel just fine hanging out with a bi or lesbian woman, but you'd shun a man who is gay? Worse yet, looking at him, he's the last person you'd think would be fitting into any kind of social norm -- so as a completely non-mainstream person, how hypocritical is that, that you'd be intolerant of others while asking that they tolerate you? (well, actually, he did express not giving a crap what people think of him, but as long as you're looking for some level of participation in society, you're implicitly asking that people accept and tolerate you.) So you see there, nothing bad was being done, but for a number of reasons, a single thought this guy expressed was utterly repugnant to me and yes, that matters. That matters, what you're thinking. (And it actually really had me torn about being with him at all, in any capacity...it wasn't determinative because of the conflicts I had, but it was a mental struggle for me.) That translates into the way you treat people in the world. You'll encounter gay people and instead of extending warmth and friendliness, you're going to be coldly removed and polite at best, as your contaminating thought bubbles swirl in your head.

It also gets tricky to define action as somehow good, and inaction as bad. Sometimes inaction or non-action can BE action. Sorry to mince the hairs there. But it's true -- and sometimes not acting is far more benign than acting. Are there people who are far worse than your step-siblings? Sure. The militants rounding up people and committing atrocities to advance a rigorous ethnic cleansing agenda are doing a lot worse things in the world than sitting at home smoking a doobie instead of looking for a job. They're DOING a lot more, though.

It's not that your step-siblings aren't doing anything. They're doing things. It's just that they're not doing the things you're doing. And you're not doing the things they're doing. In virtually all circles in the world, what you're doing is going to be more respected and recognized. So you've outmaneuvered them in what they're doing, and by large margins. But there are things you're not outmaneuvering others on. There are things you're not going to do and be, or strive to be, that others would hold as important or worthy of recognition. So like you said, the rules are arbitrary -- but they're not even the same for everyone. It would be very, very hard to find a single rule about "who wins" that everyone could agree on. So it depends on whom you ask. You're outmaneuvering the people who suck at the game you're playing, but the people playing different games by different rules? Apples and oranges. The Game of Life is actually not a single game. You can only beat the people who happen to be opting in to the kind of game you want to play.

And even then...you're still "nothing" if you're talking as a nihilist. You can't add zero plus zero and get one by any rules.

Just one more anecdote, from today...I was exiting a parking garage and the attendant took my ticket. The same one I always see there, time after time. She always has this kind greeting, it's always the same, but it's never fake. And that's car after car after car. Hour after hour after hour. You can tell she's an immigrant, she's happy just to have a job. And she's no spring chicken. This is as good as it's gonna get for her. And apparently, she's okay with that, because she's showing up for life every day and smiling. Could I do that? HELL TO THE NO. I'd go crazy...the tedium, the boredom, the dead-endedness, not thinking I can make it into anything else, the stoopingly-low ceiling of reward, financially and otherwise...but what if she felt the same way I did about this? What if all parking attendants felt like this? (I'm just going to assume that she's not studying physics on the side, but it's an assumption.) This is just an example because that's a manpower job that could be entirely replaced with machines some day. But for now, her job is absolutely necessary for that building to run and for customers, and the company to have a work day. Without her being able to accept this status quo better than I could -- for all the reasons she's evolved as she has, and I have as I have -- things would fall apart. So it's a damn good thing people have different ambitions and dispositions, and abilities. She has the ability to stand there day in and day out and provide that. I don't. So she has her place and I have mine, and I daresay, in some ways I'm at the disadvantage, because the pressure to achieve and perform is a constant source of anxiety and struggle. It's a virtue and a vice. And when I say vice, I mean the device that crushes when you crank it.

All I can say is, THANK GOD not everyone is me and that others can withstand things I can't because of all the things you could call my "assets."

One could easily chalk up "doing nothing" to outrageous freedom from a made-up game that ends up awarding everyone the same marble-engraved trophy.

Well, absolutely I would give my kid, even if he was 90 years old whatever support I could if he was studying for a degree and putting effort into it. I think I'm the only parent I know who discouraged their child from working part-time during high school years - and for that boy, I believe I did the right thing. I didn't want him to be concerning himself with things other than studying and developing socially by having fun times with his friends in between study - he still has the same best friend, and they are not like these people you refer to though they have done some serious partying.

Yes, does sound unfair and unreasonable that those people are there. The mother should have put her foot down.

The thing is, though, you can't put your foot down or give an ultimatum when you haven't even raised your kids to have certain values.

By the time you get to this age (of the kids), I'd almost consider that cruel. You don't fail to teach a man to fish, and then throw him into the lake and yell, "Catch something out there, 'k?! Bye!"

I don't think it works like that. It's too late, is what it is. Too much water under the bridge. At this point, feeling guilty and keeping a roof over their heads makes more sense to me.

You broke it, you buy it.

The thing is, though, you can't put your foot down or give an ultimatum when you haven't even raised your kids to have certain values.

 

By the time you get to this age (of the kids), I'd almost consider that cruel. You don't fail to teach a man to fish, and then throw him into the lake and yell, "Catch something out there, 'k?! Bye!"

 

I don't think it works like that. It's too late, is what it is. Too much water under the bridge. At this point, feeling guilty and keeping a roof over their heads makes more sense to me.

 

You broke it, you buy it.

I couldn't disagree more with that last sentence. Two adults that can legally drink need to stop blaming mommy and daddy for their perpetual failures; they should save that reductionist bag of excuses for their future therapists -- no one else should have to hear it.

My mom modeled tons of negative behaviors. She was dishonest, unfaithful, ridiculously critical, selfish, vain, and sometimes pretty mean. However, you'll never see me laying any of my faults or mistakes at her feet. Why? Because at a certain point it's time to grow up. Every single person needs to take responsibility for their life and decide who it is they want to be and devise a strategy for how to realize that goal. Plenty of us had one or two screwed up parents and plenty of us don't use that an excuse for an inability to maintain even a minimum wage job.

Trial by fire is the only way they'd ever take life seriously.

Parents play an important role, but anyone who is still blaming their parents for their unemployment as they rapidly approach their mid 20's is a loser. It is that cut and dry. Stop wallowing and make the decision that your legacy will be different.

It's harsh but things have just gotten ridiculous around here, and if you had the ability to speak to these people I think you'd have to stifle the desire to projectile vomit all over the place. They have an excuse for everything, and god help my uneasy stomach if other people are going to help them find more.

Well, absolutely I would give my kid, even if he was 90 years old whatever support I could if he was studying for a degree and putting effort into it. I think I'm the only parent I know who discouraged their child from working part-time during high school years - and for that boy, I believe I did the right thing. I didn't want him to be concerning himself with things other than studying and developing socially by having fun times with his friends in between study - he still has the same best friend, and they are not like these people you refer to though they have done some serious partying.

 

Yes, does sound unfair and unreasonable that those people are there. The mother should have put her foot down.

Your approach sounds like my dad's. He doesn't mind helping as long as we're working towards a goal that we can realize. He's helped me out and I ended up landing my dream job, so he says it's all worth it. If my grades had slipped or if I hadn't secured employment he would have kicked me out of the house.

When my brother graduated from high school my dad wanted him to go to college. My brother did well in high school but he never enjoyed it. He didn't have it in him to do four more years. My brother got bad grades his first semester and Dad told him he had two choices: He either had to pay for school himself since he wasn't taking it seriously or he had to join the military. If he did neither he was going to be thrown out of the house. My brother tried to call his bluff and Dad packed two suitcases, placed them outside, and then told my brother that he'd call the cops if he didn't leave. My brother ended up joining the Air Force and now he's about to enter into the Electrician's Union.

I say all this to provide some context. Dad wasn't afraid to give his sons ultimatums if that's what needed to be done. He was willing to make the tough decisions. Given this information, you can see how we'd be very surprised to see him willingly walk into this situation. We don't understand it.

Dad always told us that school and work come first. If you excel in those things you can play as hard as you want as long as it doesn't affect either of those things. I don't know where that value system went but apparently it wasn't important to him when he met this woman.

Well, you've made it abundantly clear that, unlike your dad, you are not capable of stepping into the shoes of those who have sunken lower than you have. And I think that's where we differ. It's a blind spot, in my opinion -- a particularly unfortunate one, because it misuses such things as luck and good fortune, and confers upon yourself a false sense of immunity. I hate to quote such cliches, but that one about "until you've walked a mile in someone else's moccasins..." is really my point. I guess you would just dismiss that line of thinking, altogether?

It's not that my standards are lower than yours, or that I'm "making excuses." Nor do I think anyone should ever abdicate responsibility for their choices. I'm not condoning anything that your step-siblings are doing. And despite what I'm saying here, if the grown ones were to come onto ENA, I'd tell them it's their life now. But they are not here and there's more than one angle on this. There's a difference between explaining and condoning/"making excuses". I think it's important to put all aspects of a person (which includes everything they've learned from the moment their brain started recording messages at birth) on the table if we're going to judge.

There are mistakes that parents make that cause irrevocable damage to a child's development, and hitting some arbitrary chronological number of age doesn't wipe such things away. Sometimes these things are so bad, it actually sets up a pattern of helplessness in the brain, and even the hardiest child would be coping in one dysfunctional way or another with the fallout, as a grown-up. It would manifest differently in different people. Then you have the hand dealt, genetically. Some children are born with more resilience, some less (resiliency is considered in psychology to be an inborn trait.) People have different genetic threshholds, and therefore, mental predispositions. Some are more vulnerable, some less. That is the infinite variability of the human genome, as it interacts with the infinite life circumstantial factors that play into how someone grows up to behave and be.

To superimpose your own very particular, unique set of givens, positive and negative "butterfly effects", and responses onto everyone else as a "life lesson" to me is very short-sighted because it is entirely self-referential. "If I can do it, so can you". Haven't we all heard that at one time or another? And how does it feel, does it even compute? That message gets piped through here (ENA) a lot, it seems. That has got to be one of the worst messages anyone can deliver to someone whose life is in trouble. I have never seen any good come out of that particular line of thinking, be that talking about how you snapped out of depression and therefore, someone else should; or how you succeeded in overcoming your early trauma, so someone else should be able to, etc.

It's an attempt to feel satisfied as being superior, without any actual lived experience to accurately translate into your own "language."

You cannot compare your outcome to theirs in a parallel fashion, because whatever your mom did wrong, first, she was not someone you ever saw as a role model, let alone a primary one, as your dad's wife is for her kids. Also, even with all those things she did wrong, she did align with high achievement standards, so you got a consistent two-parent message and inculcated value system that was never compromised, never waivered. You were branded with the expectations you now hold for yourself. For the most part though, you had essentially one parent to guide your steps, and he was outstandingly strong and committed. It is likely if he modeled things that your dad's wife/her partners had modeled (or even if your dad was behaving in your formative years as he is now), I think the likelihood that you'd be a world class accountant-in-the-making is iffy, at best. If your dad had partied and come home every other week, your mom was who she is, and no one held you to any standards, who would PTH be today? If you had been raised the way your step-mom's raising her family line, what would be your lot now? You may not be doing exactly what they're doing. You're a unique human being. But if you think you'd be the same person you are now, even having the same standards -- if you think you have the answer to that question, you've got more cosmic insider knowledge than most other humans possess.

And I wouldn't say you got off unscathed. Yes, you may have the job of your dreams. But I wouldn't say that you're not affected in other ways that directly or indirectly, in the past, at present, and in the future, have, do, and will present formidable challenges, and they will be traceable to things that others could brag they overcame. Would they be right to brag about that? I don't think so. It'd be the same story -- them preaching to you with the idea that their volition and constitution is a model for everyone else to have to toe, or be branded a loser.

You've coped in your way, others cope in theirs.

I always say life is full of paradoxes, and this is one. We are the products of our legacy, and we are also the masters of our own destiny (and from a less earth-centric standpoint, we are the mere chance occurances of cosmic probabilities). Anyone who wants to pick one of those out at the expense of all the others and use it as a monotheory is missing the bigger picture.

It's more convenient to do so though, because it makes hate and pride much more justified.

Don't get me wrong though -- I'm not above it all, when it comes to feeling sick about a lot of things people do to piss their life away. I'm talking about the more sophisticated level of understanding things. I'm pretty sure that you'd be surprised how far my vomit can fly, and we could have a projectile contest of it. lol I'm clear though where I put most of the blame here, at whose feet. And so if your dad's wife had been the type of person to put her foot down now, like your dad was with your brother all along, these kids wouldn't NEED a foot to be put down. Your brother was groomed all his life to be able to meet the challenge of his suitcases being put out on the lawn (though holy crap, wow, I didn't realize it'd come to that! And btw, I thought your dad was more a "grades don't matter, as long as you do your best" person.)

The fact that his current wife doesn't put her foot down now isn't the problem -- it's the CAUSE of the problem. Circular as this may be, she doesn't do it because she never did. If she was inclined to such things, would these people BE in this situation in the first place? No. So to suddenly ask that she do it now would be like asking a cat to start singing like a bird -- and for her kittens to fly from their nest.

Trial by fire? They are as equipped -- because of how they've BEEN equipped -- for fire as a chopstick in a gas explosion.

There are consequences to what she's done and how she's been, and she is reaping those -- as is your dad, alongside her. That's how the world works.

It's an attempt to feel satisfied as being superior, without any actual lived experience to accurately translate into your own "language."

I just re-read that and realized it may be confusing...I meant to say, "...without any actual lived experience of someone else's life..."

Like, their lived experience simply is not yours, so there is no direct translation there.

And I just caught this:

We are the products of our legacy

What? lol, I mean, we are the products of others' legacy.....ugh.

It feels dumber to edit typos here than in a PM. Sorry. damn edit window...

Does sound like your father and I would share a lot of views about our kids, and so I would say that the reason he was like this with you and your brother as you undoubtedly know is that he loves you both more than anything, wants the best for you both, and was as responsible as he possibly could be as a parent.

He wouldn't feel bonded to his wife's grown-up children as he would to you and your brother, and he knows that they are her responsibility even though doesn't sound like he holds her to it. Sounds like he tolerates them because he wants to be with her.

I really didn't like my fathers second wife but I suppose I tolerated her and kept my mouth closed about some things because I loved my father.

You may not want to do this, but I want to tell you something very simple I did without even consciously meaning to do so, and it completely changed my relationship with my father. I can't remember what my father had mentioned to me over the phone, but I do remember that I said to him instinctively, "And how do you feel about that". I think it was likely difficulties he was going through having sold his business. No joke, he spoke for at least half an hour. My father spoke to me as an adult I think for the first time in my life - I may have been around 32 years old at the time. I was very, very surprised at the time, but when I got off the phone and thought about it, I realised that I had NEVER asked my father how he felt about something. Sure he had been extremely vocal about his opinions for as long as I could remember, and quite dogmatic at times, but to ask someone how they feel about something is quite a different thing.

Not saying I would ask him how he feels about these kids because he won't likely want to tell you, but if you ask him how he feels about something not quite so problematic, you may find that further down the track, he will tell you anyway. I hope you do, and that if you do choose to do that you will tell us how it goes. Best of luck.

Hope that it's okay I'm bumping your journal, PTH, and even back-tracking, just to return to some stuff I said I would, before:

Show me a guy who says "I want to be successful at this job, but whether I succeed or fail I am still me, and that "me" is worthy of respect and love" and I'll show you a guy that I'm going to outwork. It's the difference between "tomorrow is another day" and "there is no tomorrow." If shame is the self-flagellating whip that makes you outrun the people next to you then it is worth the scars.

I just had to say, that first statement in bold is simply PATENTLY FALSE. I know it's not true because on a regular basis, I meet people who are as striving as you are, but do not base their sense of worthiness on a given success or failure. I can't supply you with any first-hand testimonials except myself, but I needed to tell you that it's abjectly mistaken what you've written here because examples defy it. And as to the second point in bold, I personally am not motivated by the whip of shame. I'm motivated by the vision of what I want. There is no electric cattle prod, there is just the vision and the desire. WHO I am is not tied to that, except that I know I would let myself down if I stopped trying to get there (in that, I expect a lot of myself -- and if/when I fail, I'm hard on myself to an extent, but it's not in a total sense [though it USED to be, and I've worked all my life to overcome that; and that has only worked out for the better, let me tell you, counter-intuitively].) Who I am is someone doing my best to achieve something, and that's enough for me, and it doesn't compromise my workhorse ethic. So your model is not some axiomatic truth. It's just your perspective.

Also, on the "failure is not an option" mentality -- while I have embodied that OFTEN in my life, spoken it to myself, thought it, channeled it -- the difference between me and you is that first, I understand (I've learned!) that if and when the time comes that I'm faced with failure, life will have naturally provided me with another hand -- another set of options that I can play. And I am not privy to that now. So I must factor this in. THIS is axiomatic to life, as well as those who are successful; it has never failed to prove itself in my own life. You get to something you think you couldn't deal with, and lo and behold, some new elements have been placed on your table...the deck has been shuffled since you last looked at this "failure." And sometimes, it's even some kind of weird blessing in disguise that you got something other than what you wanted. So it's really, really jumping the gun to ever try to imagine what "failure" is going to look like when you get there, because it's right now pure fantasy. FANTASY. Your fantasy about what it will look like and how it will be. What a waste of rumination to be planning out what you can't even foresee properly! Furthermore, failure in some total, consummate way is almost impossible. Especially if you continue to be the sort of seeking, ambitious person you are. People fail in some aspect or piece of that, not the entire gamut of their life. Such a sweeping notion of failure is again, a product of a fantasy world. So if you fail in one way or on one endeavor, if you're cunning and adventuresome and creative, as well as hard-working, YOU WILL find another route. There is never JUST ONE ROUTE in life to get the things you're looking for. There is not a single business guru who doesn't say EXACTLY THIS, which is why I'm almost thinking you need to listen more to your own. Don't listen to me. Listen to every multi-billionaire who earned it, and you'll hear one uniting theme: I made it through failure after failure after failure, and that's how I got here. I got here through the mistakes, through the failures that taught me what not to do. As Thomas Edison said, "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." What if he'd assumed the attitude that he'd burn his ships at each of those "ways that won't work"? I don't know if you are simply more roused, "inspired", and "persuaded" emotionally by the majesty of Alexander the Great kicking Darius' butt, over an inventor slaving over science...but I think it'd be hard to convince most people that Edison was a slouch in the history of human achievement (and I'd argue that his ingenuity has brought civilization more in the long run than Alexander).

That's why your conception of failure is all wrong, lol...and why what constitutes greatness has everything to do with "there's always tomorrow", and nothing to do with "there is no tomorrow." Sorry to burst the romanticist-in-you bubble.

And too, it really comes down to what sort of heart you want to cultivate in the interests of greatness and power. You could rule yourself like Augustus Caesar or like Joseph Stalin. What kind of legacy to yourself would be preferable?

Yes, shame DOES increase fear, but fear does not cripple me. It does not paralyze me. It reveals to me what could happen if I fail and it's intolerable.

I also liken your thinking about fear and shame a bit to people who apply themselves to high standards and "good behavior" based on what sorts of punishments they think await them in the hereafter if they don't. They need the fear (or feel they do) "of what could happen" to do something well or right. And some of them would say that without this impetus, this incentive, without the fear of what will happen, they wouldn't be able to uphold anything, any standards. Which they then project onto everyone else (as you've done in your statements above). So they use the fear as a whip, lest they slide into their feared depraved and dissolute state, which would be their intolerable undoing.

Then there are people who don't have such incentives, but they uphold the same standards anyway. So would you say that the ones who believe people can't accomplish what they aspire to without the fear/shame element are correct? Or is that just their particular NEED, because they can't comprehend a life of inspired action without it? I don't mean to belabor this particular analogy, but it's equivalent to what you're saying.

I'll cover bases that the "I am happy with who I am regardless" guy won't even consider.

Again...same story with this. With the assumptions, generalizations, and projections I've described.

I don't separate pride and shame from my personality. They are as much a part of me as my sense of humor or anything else. Asking me to separate them to assess the merits of my true personality is too esoteric for me. I don't view pride and shame as guests in my home.

Well, that's flawed, because you were born with the personality that developed a sense of humor. That ability is inborn, written into your cerebral DNA hand. You can't learn to be funny, as you know. It's like any talent, it's a gift you're born with. Pride and shame, on the other hand, are very much learned reactions to life, and coping strategies. So they are NOT part of your personality, as anything else. They are mechanisms you have taken on. So these qualities are malleable. If they were not, people would never learn to overcome them through various epiphanies, but people do, and to their benefit.

You and I just view this differently. If I told you that you could reach x or y goals running on the junkie yet powerful energy of shame and fear then would you take that offer? Maybe you would say that the journey means more than the destination and that no business or scholastic accomplishment is worth it if it's facilitated by getting high on pride and shame. My guess would be that you are far more concerned about the process than the goal but the inverse is true for me.

So...no, I would not choose to reach x or y goal if it meant running on the toxic fuel of shame and fear. Why? Because it's unsustainable, it's so toxic. I know that from experience. I know that the price to pay in collateral damage is way too high. It robs me of too many other things, taking with one hand while giving with another. So I would rather ask, how can I reach x or y goal WITHOUT that junkie drug that ruins yourself/myself in the process? Why do I have to compromise on x or y, just because I don't want that kind of fuel? But that doesn't mean the process is more important to me than the goal, or that the "journey means more than the destination", so you got that part wrong. Wrongo! Don't oversimplify and cliche-ify my position, lol. IT'S NOT AN EITHER/OR. I want a different WAY to the goal than you do, one that doesn't leave my soul broken in its wake. And I also honor the in-progress moments, the journey, in a way that you dismiss. I'm asking for more of the pie -- not less.

Far be it from me to tell you or anyone else how successful people manage to do things like succeed in business or speak to crowds. It would be the height of arrogance to say that the only way they accomplish these things is by mirroring my approach. I have told you why I can do these things and nothing more. I am positive that plenty of people manage to do these things without relying on pride or shame, but their approach is often uninspiring and unpersuasive to me, just as my pitch for the uses of pride and shame will not encourage you to weaponize them in your life. If we each tried to emulate the other person's approach then we would be nothing more than cheap knockoffs of the real thing. We would be nothing more than two unwilling disciples of an approach in which we had no faith.

 

I don't see how that's a better option for you or me.

Haha, about the "cheap knockoffs." Agreed.

But here we have it -- AH!...you're saying in that bolded part you agree then, with what I've written above? Then don't say that with your approach, you will outwork the guy who does it without fear, shame, or all these negative incentives. Don't talk about your approach as being more effective in the abstract, as you have above. Don't talk about it being more productive of results. Rather, talk about it as you have here, that it is you erroneously believing (and at this time in your life, WANTING to believe) only poison and hell can inspire you, and that without that poison, you'd feel crippled. Admit that you rely on poison and dirty-burning fuel to get the job done, because you don't know how else to do it. Admit this is your peculiarity, that the madness appeals to you -- and that it has nothing to do with comparative efficacies of various other approaches. Don't say that if I show you a guy who loves himself regardless, you'll outdo that guy by right of anything other than your love affair with your mistress, pride/shame.

Admit that you need drugs, and are addicted to them (literally, your own thoughts and the neurotransmitters that produce them), in order to do what others do without them.

Of course I believe you can do without them without these props if you had a mind to try, but that's quite the "if", isn't it, lol.

Just to bring home what I'm saying in a much more eloquent way (and note, it implies the "my approach vs. yours" bit, and how we do not conceive of goal-setting differently, but go about it differently), here is a short video from one of my favorite philosophers of the modern age, Alan Watts. I'm wondering if you have heard of him...he was very influential in the 70's, as one of the first to bring Eastern philosophy to the West, in comparative scholarship. This is very Eastern-influenced, and put perfectly:

[video=youtube;HdqVF7-8wng] ]