Great first meeting/date - wait for him to call?

[yahoo2]

My point is, is women asking men out is NOT ineffective or asking for a failed relationship. You're just setting yourself up for possible rejection, same as men must do. It doesn't work most of the time for men, and they get rejected more often than they get accepted. If you do the same thing, you face the same risks. Deal with it, or accept the passive role.

 

I suspect you just don't want to go there, and that's the reason you don't ask; shielding yourself from rejection, pure and simple. That's fine, but

that's no reason to say "it won't work." Men face the same low odds, and have little choice but to keep asking. It works for them if they persist and don't take the rejections personally, as they must do if they are to succeed.

 

In a way, you have a choice, and men do not. They can't wait for women to ask or they'd never get a date. They are free to ask whomever they want, however, assuming they've got the nerve. Their odds go up if the women help them a little.

 

Just meet us halfway, that's all we ask. We'll take over from there if we think we've got a chance.

[Batya33]

Nope - you're wrong - have no problem with risking rejection. I know hundreds of men and women and have known hundreds over the last 15-20 years of dating as an adult. I know of no long term happy relationships that began with the woman doing most of the initiating in the beginning - or even being the one to ask the man out on an official first date (as opposed to a non-date or group outing). I do know of men who are flattered by being asked out but who have been uncomfortable with the woman being the "agressor." My boyfriend is one of them - he is a traditional gentleman, he liked being the pursuer - he says he is proud that he pursued me (I certainly met him halfway - but he did most of the asking and initiating until we were seriously dating). Most of the men I have dated have been the type who are perfectly comfortable and/or feel positively with doing most of the asking and initiating in the early stages. Among my dozens of female friends - and hundreds over the years - many have pursued men, asked them out with the typical scenario being no date, one or two dates or a sexually-based fling.

 

If I saw it being effective for women who like me want long term serious relationships I would have no issue asking men out on a regular basis. When it comes to social situations and I pretty near fearless, I am reasonably confident that I am a desirable person and I have recovered quickly from rejection early on - i am not the one who drunk dials or sends emails asking "why didn't you call me???" after not hearing from a man after the first few dates - obviously where we were dating for a few months I would want to have that talk if possible, and I have.

 

And - I am not a feminist and I am not out to change the world when it comes to dating - not because I have it easier than men (in some ways, it is harder for women) but because I see other societal problems that are far more important to me that I dedicate myself to (such as teaching homeless children to love books and to read)

 

You can believe what you want - I am secure in knowing that I am not afraid of rejection and most certainly not "lazy" and my approach has worked well for me since I let the men be "men" (in the traditional sense) and we get to care about each other in our own ways - typically he is more of the protector - I am more of the domestic person, etc - I don't care if it works for no one else, it works and has worked for me (and yes I have a full time and demanding career in corporate america - my professional hat and my social hat are two very different hats!).

 

I feel I meet men more than half way or at least halfway from the beginning and of course once we are steadily dating there is little formal invitations for dates anyway and if there are I have no issue initiating as much as he does.

 

just my personal experience.

[yahoo2]

Truthfully, you're a little dogmatic about it. I don't think you have the numbers to back that up. As do most women who I've talked to about this very thing. Based on a few experiences, they cast a broad net. Ask and get rejected, and accepted, multiple times, then get back to me. That's unlikely, given feminine preferences in dating behavior. If you're going to take the initiative, understand what men do--the odds are against you. Don't let a few experiences color your behavior.

 

I have had women ask me out. Granted, it's rare, but I've wound up dating some of them long term. And I know many guys who have had the same experience.

 

You certainly don't come off as a feminist-in fact, you have more in common with a "Rules" girl than most.

 

But unless you have asked out many men, and I'd guess you haven't (you say as much), your experiences are more due to the luck of the draw than anything else.

 

The success of long term relationships are due to compatibility more than anything else, and not who asked first. In my experience, and those I know.

 

Enough said. I'm done.

[Batya33]

My reasoning is based on my experiences and those of hundreds of other women in my age group over the last 20 years (i.e. ages 20s to 40s over the last 20 years).

 

I am not a rules girl - I followed my version of the rules over a decade before the rules was published. Always worked out well for me and for the men I dated/was involved with. Same for the vast majority of the hundreds of people I know.

[DN]

Same for the vast majority of the hundreds of people I know

Do you really know the dating successes and failures of hundreds of people? You must be a very approachable sort of person for that many people to have confided in you.

 

If you say it worked for the vast majority then it would follow that a small minority found the opposite effect - or that you didn't know the outcome. So maybe, for those few people, the woman approaching the man did in fact work. And, as yahoo suggests, it is a numbers issue. If more women approached men then perhaps that small minority might increase to just a minority, or even, given time and persistence, a majority.

[violingirl]

I think that this whole thread is going to be a moot point for me soon. It's been 3 days and I haven't heard a word from him yet. Maybe I was just wrong - maybe the date didn't go so well. Perhaps I was imagining things. After 2 years alone, I could be (and probably am) delusional at this point.

[Batya33]

Do you really know the dating successes and failures of hundreds of people? You must be a very approachable sort of person for that many people to have confided in you.

 

If you say it worked for the vast majority then it would follow that a small minority found the opposite effect - or that you didn't know the outcome. So maybe, for those few people, the woman approaching the man did in fact work. And, as yahoo suggests, it is a numbers issue. If more women approached men then perhaps that small minority might increase to just a minority, or even, given time and persistence, a majority.

 

I actually do know and know of that many people and that's a conservative estimate. Many people confide in me (and dating stories are often not very personal). Yes, time and persistence may change things but when I am asked today for advice on whether to ask out a man or do most of the asking out, I respond with the well-founded assumption that the person wants to know the risks in each approach (and typically that is what I am asked).

 

I typically do not say "don't call him!" or "don't ask him out!" (unless he made a specific plan with her and then did not follow up, for example) - rather I generally and simply say something like "in my experience a man who is truly interested in dating you for a potentially serious relationship will ask you out and if you ask him out it is unlikely to turn into a relationship, either because he is not that interested in you in the first place or because he felt put off or turned off by your calling him or asking him out when the ball was left in his court or when he was uncomfortable with you taking on a traditional male role."

 

if someone asked me whether to ask out a man she was interested in on an official date I would say "sure, go ahead but typically that doesn't lead to a relationship."

 

There's nothing wrong at all with women pursuing men - it's just generally ineffective.

 

I don't give dating advice when it's not asked for but many people come to me for that advice and many of them thank me and come back for more because of the way that I explain myself and because, frankly, at least for my age group and in my social circles (typically urban professionals ages 20s-40s and beyond) that is what seems to be the most effective.

 

If someone asked me, instead, do I think that it is worth it to persist in trying to change the minority to a majority so that we can have more women asking men out, more men comfortable with that scenario, etc I would say sure go right ahead, knock yourself out and I wish you all the best. But particularly for women who want to get married "yesterday" it is not worth it to be unconventional or try to change the trends.

 

As I mentioned, I see far more worthy causes - like educating homeless children or finding better lives for those with mental illnesses - both causes I work hard on - than having women asking men out as much as men ask women out in the early stages of dating. I have limited time for causes and that's not one I am interested in or that I find worthy enough - not because I have the easier role - I don't, not in the least - but because I don't feel strongly enough that it is urgent that it change.

[Batya33]

I think that this whole thread is going to be a moot point for me soon. It's been 3 days and I haven't heard a word from him yet. Maybe I was just wrong - maybe the date didn't go so well. Perhaps I was imagining things. After 2 years alone, I could be (and probably am) delusional at this point.

 

OK - look at it this way. There are infinite reasons and it does not mean you were delusional!! He could have met "the one" the following night, gotten back together with his girlfriend, decided that after all he wasn't ready to date again, he could have a girlfriend, a fiancee, be married, he could have a really gross cold and he wants to call when he feels better. I had a date like that more than once - in one case he was practically proposing and he said we would go see a certain movie that weekend (we met on a Monday). Thursday rolls around and he didn't call. I was devastated because at that time - 12 years ago - I still got wayy too attached early on.

 

So, I called him and said "hey, do you still want to see that movie you suggested?" He sounded strangely distant but agreed. A total about face. We met and the second date was cold and aloof. No idea why. Obviously he never called me again. He got married several years ago - seemingly lovely woman. Obviously I wasn't "the one" for him but you would have thought after that first chemistry-oozing date (but no kiss by the way) he would have followed through on his invitation. Throws up hands - one of the many mysteries of dating and why having a thick skin is essential.

[violingirl]

I am still one of his "active matches" and vice versa on the dating site, so he hasn't outright deleted me yet, but, at the same time, it wouldn't take much effort for him to send me a short e-mail or something. Plus, he's been on the site several times since the date (of course, that's not too unusual).

 

It's extremely difficult (if not downright impossible) for me to have a "thick skin" about anything in my personal life these days, because all I've experienced the past 2 years is rejection.

 

I felt surprisingly confident 3 days ago, but all of that confidence has just gone down the drain now that I'm in the midst of the eternal "waiting game."

[Batya33]

I am still one of his "active matches" and vice versa on the dating site, so he hasn't outright deleted me yet, but, at the same time, it wouldn't take much effort for him to send me a short e-mail or something. Plus, he's been on the site several times since the date (of course, that's not too unusual).

 

It's extremely difficult (if not downright impossible) for me to have a "thick skin" about anything in my personal life these days, because all I've experienced the past 2 years is rejection.

 

I felt surprisingly confident 3 days ago, but all of that confidence has just gone down the drain now that I'm in the midst of the eternal "waiting game."

 

I completely understand and relate and I hope that helps a little. Think of it this way too - the only reason you've experienced rejection is because you put yourself out there - the alternative was to not to and I think - for what it's worth - that you made the far braver choice. When you are feeling better (not now!) think about whether there is anything you want to change in how you interact with men since you are the common denominator in these different dating situations. The answer might be no - and that is entirely a fair answer - but it might be a productive exercise.

 

When I did that in an analogous context 10 years ago (I wanted to increase the quality of my friendships) I found that I was being too chatty and giving TMI such that people were put off and a bit overwhelmed at times. I changed that part of me, over time, with amazing results.

[violingirl]

And now, funnily enough, I am too paralyzed by my fear of further rejection to contact him in any way. See, I'm (sadly) even less confident than I was this morning.

 

I don't know what I'm doing wrong with men. I know I'm not beautiful or even above-average looking. It's quite possible that's what's wrong.

[Batya33]

And now, funnily enough, I am too paralyzed by my fear of further rejection to contact him in any way. See, I'm (sadly) even less confident than I was this morning.

 

I don't know what I'm doing wrong with men. I know I'm not beautiful or even above-average looking. It's quite possible that's what's wrong.

 

I'm not beautiful either. As I mentioned, trying to figure it out now maybe isn't the best course because you're feeling a bit down on yourself (sorry). Could it be that you are only going for men who are conventionally "hot?" (I have no idea, just speculating). When I did on line dating I was not picky about height, hair (balding or bald was fine), didn't require him to have a great body in the least, etc. So that widened the pool, so to speak. I have to say, the older I get the more I see couples where the women are average looking or below average and in happy marriages.

 

I have surmised that sure, the average heterosexual guy may find certain models or celebrities "hot" but when they look for who to marry they prefer someone who is close to their level of attractiveness (or perceived attractiveness) - absolutely they think of their wives as beautiful - but they know, intellectually that their wives are nowhere near being models - and that is not an issue.

[violingirl]

None of the guys I've gone out with via online dating have been "hot" in the traditional sense, but I found them attractive. I never go for the "hot" or "too pretty" men, believe me.

 

This guy was pretty average looking - wears glasses, a bit of a receding hairline (he's losing some hair on the top of his head), average height/weight, definitely not athletic, a self-described "music geek," actually (like me), but I found him attractive.

[Batya33]

None of the guys I've gone out with via online dating have been "hot" in the traditional sense, but I found them attractive. I never go for the "hot" or "too pretty" men, believe me.

 

This guy was pretty average looking - wears glasses, a bit of a receding hairline (he's losing some hair on the top of his head), average height/weight, definitely not athletic, a self-described "music geek," actually (like me), but I found him attractive.

 

Do you limit yourself to those men who directly express interest in a serious relationship? On the profile is fine but better is when that is backed up during the phone conversation or at least on the first meeting - in general - a clear idea of what he is looking for.

[violingirl]

I've been pretty open about guys' profiles in general. Of course I have some standards (tons of misspellings drive me nuts; a guy who is blatantly just looking for "fun" is not my type) and I look for some common interests (otherwise the first date becomes incredibly pained and awkward when you are struggling for conversation).

[Batya33]

I've been pretty open about guys' profiles in general. Of course I have some standards (tons of misspellings drive me nuts; a guy who is blatantly just looking for "fun" is not my type) and I look for some common interests (otherwise the first date becomes incredibly pained and awkward when you are struggling for conversation).

 

Same exact thing here.

[violingirl]

The thing is that I'd like to think of myself as a normal, relatively average (with the exception of intelligence, which is above average) woman. But why, then, do I have such rotten luck with men, while other woman like me have no problems finding relationships that lead to marriage and kids?

[violingirl]

I guess there is no easy answer to my last question.

 

I'm still not sure whether he would welcome any contact from me, especially considering that 3 1/2 days have already passed. Perhaps he just was being nice and is hoping (like most of the men I've met) that I'll just disappear. I really don't want to make a fool of myself and feel worse.

[Batya33]

I guess there is no easy answer to my last question.

 

I'm still not sure whether he would welcome any contact from me, especially considering that 3 1/2 days have already passed. Perhaps he just was being nice and is hoping (like most of the men I've met) that I'll just disappear. I really don't want to make a fool of myself and feel worse.

 

It's totally up to you. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further. It's always a judgment call in these things and since none of us were on the date, of course we don't have all the information as to body language, tone, etc.

[Siriana]

I think that a guy who's interested shouldn't wait 3 and a half days. So i suggest to erase him from your memory.

[violingirl]

I am also beginning to think that 3 1/2 days is too long for him to wait to contact me again and that I should assume that he's not interested. Does anyone else think that 3 1/2 days is too long?

[thlst3]

from a guy's pov, i usually wait 2 or 3 days to call. I usually call on wed. to make plans for the upcoming weekend. i wouldn't mind if my date txted or called me to ask me out. less pressure.

 

if you don't hear from him tonight, i suggest send him a txt... "how was your new year? hope to hear from you." or be brave and give him a call. If he answer's, you still have a shot. if he doesn't, just move to the next match.

 

gl and have fun with online dating.

[rosie76]

Not the best to give advice, since I'm new to the dating game, but I'd say to be yourself and get in touch. You say you wish dating was less of a game, so determine that it won't be for you and act accordingly. Within reason, there's no reason either partner can't express the desire for a second date, and if your doing so turns the guy off then he's not the guy for you anyway.

 

Seriously, if the world ends tomorrow, are you more likely to regret losing a bit of pride by reiterating your interest to someone who you already suspect may not be interested in you or by failing to follow up on someone you're clearly interested in because, for whatever reason, he hasn't called yet? If you're honest and he's not interested, you lose nothing as you're already thinking a lot about this situation - if you're honest and he _is_ interested, but is not calling because he's timid, sick, busy, mourning a lost relative, trapped in a well, etc. etc. etc., then you've also lost nothing. It's hardly as if this guy will be sitting on the fence thinking 'should I call that woman back? Ah, I dunno, why don't I see if she calls me and if she does then I'll forget about it.'

 

Or maybe he is. Guys? I can see how coming on too strong would be a turn off for anyone, but is an honest expression of interest really that bad?

[Siriana]

I am against calling, getting in touch and so on. If he were interested enough he would call. Who can wait more than 3 days to get in touch with a girl he likes?! That's taking a risk someone else will step in the game.

 

Plus if you choose to contact him and put things on a plate for him he might choose to answer your call, meet up with you since you were innitiating stuff even tough he's not completely into you, and than start something that I would call lame relationship in nice terms.

 

Also he said you could go to a concert - it was up to him to decide which concert and when. The fact is the only thing he mentioned was you could go and that's it. If he were interested enough he would say something like I'll call you to make arrangments about that, I tought about going to a concert from X.....

[rosie76]

I am against calling, getting in touch and so on. If he were interested enough he would call.

 

But mightn't the guy be thinking 'if she were interested enough she would call?' I know it's not the woman's traditional role, but it's 2007 not 1947 after all.

 

I'm not meaning that to sound argumentative --- and you're probably right, the only guy I contacted did go out with me a few more times once he stopped calling and I started, but his own initiative died away quickly --- I'm just really entirely new to all this and the whole traditional role set up sounds quite unfair on the guys and intrinsically disempowering to the women to me.

 

I feel like if I have to play a game of covering up my own interest to keep a man interested, then he's not the man I want to share my life with in any real way anyway.