To pay or not to pay?

[rocio]

Why dont you read through the entire thread first to understand what we are talking here about. No one is making generalization about everyone.

 

This certainly seems like a generalization:

 

I dont know why are we making it so hard. Why don't both sexes take equal responsibility of sharing costs involved in dating and get that out of the way, so they can both enjoy the relationship fully without anyone ending up having bitter feelings or feeling taken advantage of. Treats should be on certain important occasions like birthday, anniversaries, or other special events.

 

You are saying the my viewpoint, or way of doing things, should be "out of the way" and you are talking about what "should" happen. I happen to disagree, for my own situation, and don't feel that it is damaging my relationships in any way.

 

I have been following the thread and have read the posts carefully, thank you.

[annie24]

So the man who splits everything down the middle is cold emotionally but the woman who pays nothing on a date is not. So yet again the guy is pressured into paying because if he does not he will be seen as emotionally cold and that the way a man proves he is worth considering as a partner is for him to pony up the cash and buy her material things.

 

And for 'half-sandwhich guy' - you would be perfectly happy if he paid for your meal but when you pay for his he is treated with contempt and given a derogatory nickname.

 

The double standard here is amazing.

 

well, it's that he said he wasn't going to eat (and thereforeeee, didn't have to pay for her meal), but then he ate half of it, without offering to pitch in. It's perfectly fine behavior for broke college roommates, but if it's someone who is trying to impress you on a date... well, I'm not impressed.

[rocio]

I'm going to take a really wild guess, though, that none of the guys in here are jumping up and down to take me on a date?

 

 

[annie24]

I'll buy you half a sandwhich!

[Batya33]

well, it's that he said he wasn't going to eat (and thereforeeee, didn't have to pay for her meal), but then he ate half of it, without offering to pitch in. It's perfectly fine behavior for broke college roommates, but if it's someone who is trying to impress you on a date... well, I'm not impressed.

 

Exactly. I said generally that people - men and women - who want to split everything all the time, down to the penny - typically are also cold emotionally, with exceptions. Not just men. I thought half sandwhich guy was rude the same way any man or woman would be rude where he/she says she is not hungry, then eats half my food and then doesn't even offer to pay (for the record I would have insisted on paying anyway as I offered to pay but it would have been polite if he offered and it was rude that he didn't.

 

It had nothing to do with gender in that instance - or even with trying to impress me. I would hope that someone had enough basic manners to offer to chip in for a meal that was shared, where that someone insisted in advance he/she wouldn't eat (and that was why I insisted on treating in the first place, so as not to take advantage), then eats half my food and then doesn't even think to offer to chip in, leave the tip, etc. I could never do that - whether on a date or otherwise. The fact that it was a date did make it slightly worse for the reasons annie24 said.

 

As for fifthline and the comment that women who make equal pay for equal work are getting "perks" in the workplace - it is very easy to twist people's words, both ways. As for fifthline, you are focused on reading what you want to read about women and treating on dates. As for the comment about "perks" I still hope (!) that that was just an error in word use and that the poster didn't really mean that women getting treated equally in the workplace with respect to salary should believe they are getting some kind of "perk" that others don't get. I hope I didn't twist words, in that instance, but I don't have that same motive for twisting words that fifthline seems to particularly in the last post. Well, a girl can hope, anyway, that "perks" was not meant to be expressed that way.

[Mavis VDSande]

In some ways I feel like you either do or you don't - you either go 50/50 or either of you (whoever earns most sometimes) pays most of the time. But you can't bear grudges if the one you have chosen to go out with LT has money problems or sometimes hopes to be treated by you.

 

My problem is that I am constantly being judged by friends who almost "look down" on my bf for going 50/50 with me. I get so frustrated, aren't we in a society now where equality in the rels also includes equality in sharing finances?

 

Apparently he's not a "man" - even my friend's bf's think my guy ought to be paying. Yet we're all working, so what is the problem? If I act like I am not expecting to pay the bill, sure enough my bf pays for everything without questioning me. But frankly it makes me feel like a manipulator, it makes me feel like I am putting a strain on our rels somehow.

 

Having said that my friends who like their guys to pay go to great lengths to appear perfect in every sense. Whilst I'll happily meet my guy in a tracksuit bottom, they would dress up even to meet their bfs for 30 mins.

 

Perhaps it's what they have chosen, to play the complete feminine role - and I have already made up my mind to not be totally masculine or feminine in my rels.

 

Why am I so bothered about this?!

[Mavis VDSande]

If I had a date with the *Half-Sandwhich-Guy* I would expect him to chip in at least, or buy dessert for us! I guess if I was going out LT with him I would know that he would treat me (to half a free sandwhich!) at some other time. But if it was the first date - I'd be pretty gutted! ;p

[Batya33]

I think you are bothered because his behavior is inconsistent with your values/expectations -no right or wrong here. Money and how it is spent is rarely about money - it's also about psychology, emotions, even your family background. I would NOT be comfortable dating someone who split everything 50/50 where each time there was an expense there was a discussion about "who owes what." I would be more comfortable with taking turns so that it is roughly equal - I do that with certain girlfriends, too. Sounds like he is trying to make a point here and you are not entirely comfortable with his point. Do you think he is trying to "test" you to see if you like him for him? I bet he has had past bad experiences with women who dated him just for the free meal.

 

You may "want" to be "feminist" about this but deep down you are not OR you are feeling vibes or energy that is telling you this goes beyond "money" and is a statement about what he sees as "fair" and perhaps an unwillingness to trust. That is, even in a 50/50 relationship where you take turns and it roughly works out, each person has to trust the other not to take advantage of the "taking turns."

 

and it is analogous to when you are dating someone who let's say has an effeminate side or a "geeky" side. If you are comfortable with that you won't mind if people comment on it - but if you are not, comments about his "manhood" or "masculinity" will annoy you because you too are troubled by those attributes.

[FifthLine]

As for fifthline and the comment that women who make equal pay for equal work are getting "perks" in the workplace - it is very easy to twist people's words, both ways. As for fifthline, you are focused on reading what you want to read about women and treating on dates. As for the comment about "perks" I still hope (!) that that was just an error in word use and that the poster didn't really mean that women getting treated equally in the workplace with respect to salary should believe they are getting some kind of "perk" that others don't get. I hope I didn't twist words, in that instance, but I don't have that same motive for twisting words that fifthline seems to particularly in the last post. Well, a girl can hope, anyway, that "perks" was not meant to be expressed that way.

 

 

If you read the thread more carefully you will see that the word 'perk' was not used by me but by rose2summer.

 

I don't think equal pay for equal work is a perquisite at all - it is a basic human right. Having won the right then women should accept equal responsibility. Many have - some have not.

[Batya33]

I believed I thought it was rose2summer. sorry for any confusion.

[holyohio]

He definitely should be paying until you're exclusive (or, if you don't play that game, then say for the first couple of months he sees you). Then you may pay once. Make it a GREAT one. Treat him to a great meal at a great restaurant, really show him you're not cheap. Then he pays again. He should pay at LEAST 60% of the time (I prefer 75%) until he's basically said he wants to marry you and you have a ring on your finger. At that time go ahead and be 50/50, splurge on his birthday, spoil him rotten.

 

Just one girl's opinion.

 

I believe in the western world they call this "prostitution".

 

 

Unless, of course, you don't have sex with him...then it's called "robbery."

[Batya33]

It does get similar to prostitution if the woman is dating the man solely for the dinners or other activities, gifts, etc. and the man is dating the woman solely for sex or in the hopes of getting sex.

 

Otherwise, in the western world your view -- unless you are joking --- which I hope you are! -- is called "misogynistic." ;-)

[holyohio]

It does get similar to prostitution if the woman is dating the man solely for the dinners or other activities, gifts, etc. and the man is dating the woman solely for sex or in the hopes of getting sex.

 

If you read the post I quoted, I was referring to the former.

 

And what's the difference in a womans "expectation" that a man pay for everything and a mans "expectation" to be repaid between the sheets immediately afterwards?

 

They both reek of shallowness, do they not?

[Scout]

Hiya Batya...I'm often on the same page with you, but I gotta say, not this time. I too am having a bit of a struggle understanding your distinction between expecting equal pay in the workforce and equal asking out/paying for dates. Personally, I think it's going to be hard for us women to make advances in the professional sphere if we still insist on being treated like little children indulged at a toy store in the private arena. (That's a metaphor, of course, but what I'm saying is that why do we, as grown adults, expect to go out with our dates and pay nothing?)

 

And regarding this quote below...

 

I would agree except that I know of no happy, healthy, long term relationships where the woman did most of the asking in the beginning.

 

...well, you're "looking" at a gal who is in the best relationship she's had to date with someone she had to do all the pursuing with in the beginning. My boyfriend just didn't get it that I was interested in him at first...turns out later, he thought I was "out of his league" (so sweet of him to say, but so far off from reality!) Of course, the jury's still out on if we're going to be together permanently, one never can guarantee if any relationship will last. We're very happy together, though.

 

Now, could be you are talking about women who had to pursue men who were constantly hot/cold, giving/withdrawing...and I agree those relationships don't usually pan out. But I would also say the same for men who pursue women who give those kind of mixed signals, too.

[Scout]

Exactly. I said generally that people - men and women - who want to split everything all the time, down to the penny - typically are also cold emotionally, with exceptions. Not just men.

 

Yes, I see what you're saying here. I guess my philosophy is, if I have some extra dough, share the wealth. I seem to attract both romantic and platonic relationships with people who share the same viewpoint. Just as some who like to minutely split things right down the middle might be better off with people who feel most comfortable doing that, too.

[Beec]

I think every couple needs to work this out for themselves. If a woman expects him to pay, she should also act very traditionally in ther regards.

[nadine_3110]

The way it goes for my bf and I is that he pays sometimes and I pay sometimes. But it ends up that he pays more than I do, he doesn't complain and nor do I when I pay. Money is not that much of an issue with us.

[Jayar]

I believe in the western world they call this "prostitution".

 

 

Unless, of course, you don't have sex with him...then it's called "robbery."

 

Actually, it's called "courtship" and "dating"... And of course you wouldn't have sex with him! That, along with paying his way now and again, is one of the perks of a RELATIONSHIP.

[Jayar]

I think every couple needs to work this out for themselves. If a woman expects him to pay, she should also act very traditionally in ther regards.

 

100% agreed!!! I expect him to court, him to pay, him to pull out my chair and open the doors... I won't entertain a guy who doesn't. At the same time, because he pays I am happy to have him select the restaurant/activity/movie and would never consider knocking his choice. And ONCE I AM IN A RELATIONSHIP I'm MORE than happy to have a hot meal ready for that boy when he comes home from work every day, do his laundry, and keep OUR house neat and clean. All this on top of my full-time job.

 

There ARE gender roles. He courts, he pays, he changes the lightbulbs and cuts the grass. I take care of the house and home. Maybe the roles got blurred somewhere along the lines in North America, but I come from European upbringing and a man wouldn't consider letting a woman he was courting pay... The same way a woman wouldn't consider letting her husband go unfed (hehe).

 

In a lot of ways the gender roles only got blurred because women with low standards let guys get away with this whole 50/50 crap (which applies to a RELATIONSHIP but NEVER COURTING) and now some guys are just conditioned to expect that. Fair enough, I just won't be dating any of them.

[Jayar]

Here's an interesting comparison...

 

Let's suppose that a man pays for ALL dates up to the 1-year mark with a woman, with the exception of a few nominal treats from her end. Since I see a guy at MOST 3x per week during the courtship phase, we can safely assume that he's spending about $50 per week on my half of our dating expenses (which covers a nice dinner and a few movies/activities). During the whole year, the man would spend about $2,600 on ME ($50 x 52 weeks). We don't need to discuss gifts and such because those are exchanged and thereforeeee fairly even.

 

Now, what's he spending that $2,600 on? My company. And he appreciates that I look great (because men are visual creatures). And to STAY looking great for him, so that he feels his money is well-spent, it costs me about $30/month in gym fees, $10/month indoor tanning, and $60/month for manicure and pedicure. That's about $1,200 per year... Add to that a hair appointment that ends up being about $200, 4x per year (every 3 months) and you can see that a woman EASILY spends more during courtship than a man!

 

The above was more of a joke... But the fact is, not only do women typically MAKE less, but our COST OF LIVING is WAY higher than a man's. Looking good isn't easy and it isn't cheap. The cosmetics industry is huge, and it isn't you GUYS feeding it! Your $10 haircut to our $200 style...

 

And before anyone says "well I'm not shallow I don't care if my girl looks good!" Yeah... Right... That's why the various men's magazines are such large empires, right? If you REALLY don't care whether your girl takes care of herself then date someone who doesn't, who is happy to pay their own way. There's someone out there for each of us.

 

Oh, and just in case you can't guess... I just got back from getting my hair done (3 hours, let's not even TALK about lost wages, and $200 bucks) while about 10 men came through for the $20 special... In and out in half an hour.

 

Lastly... Just in case the score is still tied... Two words: Giving Birth...

 

Yup, women get the short end of the stick when it comes to relationships. So suck it up and pay for the damn burger.

[Scout]

And ONCE I AM IN A RELATIONSHIP I'm MORE than happy to have a hot meal ready for that boy when he comes home from work every day, do his laundry, and keep OUR house neat and clean. All this on top of my full-time job.

 

There ARE gender roles. He courts, he pays, he changes the lightbulbs and cuts the grass. I take care of the house and home.

 

Well, what about the traditional expectation that women defer to their husbands on all major decisions? Somehow, Jayar, I just don't picture you as the demure type who keeps her opinions to herself.

 

And from a purely practical standpoint, I would be curious to know what useful purposes you believe gender roles serve in our society.

 

I also am confused on what logic you are using to divvy up the chores...the lawn and the lightbulbs are part of the house and home, aren't they??

[Its_B]

If a woman decides to go 50/50 on dates with a man, that does not mean she has low standards, or letting the guy "get away" with anything. I think women who expect men to pay all the time have incredibly high standards! If two people are both working, and have the spare money, why should only one be paying all the time?

[Jayar]

Well, what about the traditional expectation that women defer to their husbands on all major decisions? Somehow, Jayar, I just don't picture you as the demure type who keeps her opinions to herself.

 

And from a purely practical standpoint, I would be curious to know what useful purposes you believe gender roles serve in our society.

 

I also am confused on what logic you are using to divvy up the chores...the lawn and the lightbulbs are part of the house and home, aren't they??

 

Haha! Nope I'm not demure... But then again, the only man I'd consider spending my life with would want to SHARE responsibility for the big decisions. I do tend to be the type to pick my battles. For instance, if he wants to get a plasma T.V. and we can afford it, WHICH plasma T.V. he gets is something HE can take the reins on. I think a KEY difference between relationships now and relationships back then was that I can live on my own. I can support myself 100%. I don't need a man to pay the bills or squish bugs. I need him for emotional support and companionship. thereforeeee, if I am not happy (because say he decides to buy a plasma T.V. when we clearly can't even afford our bills) then I'm done. I'd walk. Maybe women back then (whenever "then" was) didn't have that ability and thereforeeee modern self sufficient women do have an advantage.

 

As far as gender roles in society? They DON'T serve a practical purpose! I'd be the first to tell you that men should divy up the chores with the kids the SAME as a woman but they just don't. MOST women are fighting with their husbands through most of child rearing that they do everything while he does very little. And that's beyond society... That's biology. I believe there are exceptions, but in general men aren't the nurturers and domestics. They can be, if you happen to find one that is... But if you don't and you don't ACCEPT that there are certain biological male and female roles, you can set yourself up for a lifetime of frustration.

 

My parents are a fantastic example. Both have professional jobs and work long hours, but my mother took care of us kids. My dad loved us and played with us but he didn't do the SAME as my mom. I think if my dad had been raising us alone we'd have been cooking and cleaning on our own at 6 years old, LOL. But when my mom's car breaks down (or mine for that matter) it's daddy to the rescue. And when our house was broken into years ago... My DAD was the one who chased the intruders off and kept us safe. My mom fought with my dad at the beginning about the fact that she does all the work with us kids... But THAT is the way it goes! Unless you're a male seahorse, cleaning and feeding the kiddies isn't biologically on your "to-do list". But that said, because my dad loves and respects my mom, if she had to be at an early meeting or was working late, he picked up her job and fed us or got us to practice or whatever. It just wasn't something he could have sustained for the 20 years it took us to grow up!

 

As for chores, nope lawn is man work. Hehe! Anything requiring tools or equipment, or a ladder is man work. Keep in mind I do these things for myself now but guys LIKE to have territory. The garage and toolshed is their territory (as is the yard). I'm grown up on my own now and live in an apartment. My dad LOVES to come by and fix things (electrical, shelving, whatever) and I don't even ask him to. Guys just like being helpful. He feels bad now that my ex is gone and that's HIS way of helping. But it's a perfect example, because this is what my dad falls back on naturally to express his caring for his daughter.

[Batya33]

I meant those relationships where the woman does most of the asking out on dates in the beginning - as in the first 6-7 dates - not sure if that is your experience and I always say there are exceptions I just do not know of any.

 

I believe as I've stated in previous posts that romantic/private relationships vs. corporate relationships/business are apples and oranges. My boyfriend treating me to dinner does not make me childlike in the least. With respect to my job - the business sphere - I expect equal pay for equal work because if I do the same job as a man it is only fair that I get paid the same.

 

In dating, which is private between two people - I don't expect that the man do most of the treating while in a relationship - but if he wants to and that works for us, more power to us - it does not affect business, the government, what constitutes a fair wage, women's wages, etc - nobody's business but our own. I am not a feminist - I simply expect that in the workplace I not be treated differently because I am a woman.

 

I don't see where that has necessary application to my private life. Most people, anyway, are not purely feminist or purely traditional - they are a mix of lots of attributes particularly when children are involved.

 

If I were claiming to be a feminist in all aspects of my life, then yes I suppose I would also to be consistent only date men who allowed me to split the bill 50/50 all the time. I am not claiming to be feminist in any aspect of my life nor am I picking or choosing what equality works for me. I work darn hard and incredibly long hours and I am asking for nothing more than to which I am entitled. In reality I've never had any issues of being discriminated against because I am a woman in the workplace, thank goodness. I do not feel that equality in my private relationships requires 50/50 splitting the bill - often those relationships are very unequal in any event. In any private relationship, you cannot quantify what one person gives - it may be in the form of money or it may be in another form entirely - because there are emotions involved. Work is different - you can quantify and equalize on the basis of money.

[Batya33]

If you read the post I quoted, I was referring to the former.

 

And what's the difference in a womans "expectation" that a man pay for everything and a mans "expectation" to be repaid between the sheets immediately afterwards?

 

They both reek of shallowness, do they not?

 

Because if a man invites a woman out on a date, by inviting her the expectation is that he will be treating her while on the date. And it goes for the woman too - if she does the asking then she should pay. Later on, it can change because there's far less "inviting" and more of an assumption that you will spend time together. At that point, the couple works out what works best for them. I don't think it's shallow.