Why is dating so much like a game....

[Batya33]

I think girls take relationships WAY seriously in the beginning, like when they first start dating a guy they are into, they are already thinking in their minds about marriage, a house, kids, etc. Men, on the other hand, seem to take dating a day at a time, and just enjoy the experience for what it is, at that point in time. Women tend to jump the gun and think of what it can lead to down the road. I know I have been guilty of that many times. I think the reason why men and women approach dating differently has to do with social constraints and how we are taught to view dating. Women see dating as a means to an end (marriage and kids) while men see dating more in current time frame.

 

Has not worked that way for me. Almost every man I've been involved with for more than 4 dates or so (more than a month) in the last 8 years (about 7 that I can remember and probably more) have brought up marriage and family within the first 4 dates or earlier, have raised seriously and specifically the idea of marriage/a family with me within the first two months of dating and made their intentions known. There was one man I dated for two months, I ended it and about two years later (we had been in touch occasionally) sent me an email where he said he wanted us to start dating again with the goal of marriage.

 

I think it's about who you select to date. All of the men I have dated more than a few times in the last 15 plus years have been solid, stable, with serious goals when it came to career, education, profession, and very respectful to me (and I to them). It's not a big leap to assume that those types of men likely also are interested in marriage and family and are too busy to date just to date (as I am). I have occasionally dated the "bad boy" type - but only short term - because it was obvious from very early on that we didn't have similar values and goals. I am not saying that those types of men would be right for everyone - just how it has worked out for me.

 

I have actually felt the opposite at times - men taking things way too seriously early on and wanting exclusivity and wanting to talk about the future before I was ready.

[violingirl]

I also wish that dating were not such a "game." It's draining and one of the reasons that I'm taking a break from dating right now.

 

renaissancewoman101, I think that you are right that "woman see dating as a means to an end while men see dating more in the current time frame." I know that at my age, I would definitely like to get married and start a family sooner rather than later, but it's a matter of finding someone who has compatible life goals and who fits well with me. And that's hard to find.

[justpaisley]

I feel that way, too, Paisley. But at the same time, we all have characteristics that could stand a little checking. Yes, be yourself. But if there are really negative things about you that are freaking a lot of people out, work on those things.

 

It doesn't change who you are as a fundamental person, and you can still "be yourself." For example, you can still be a passionate and opinionated person, but temper that with respect - and an ear - for other people's opinions, too. Or, you could still be mostly an introvert, but make the effort every now and then to extend yourself a bit so others don't have to do all the work. (I'm just pulling some examples out of the air, by the way, not referring to anyone on this thread.)

 

I agree that if there are parts of your personality that drive literally everyone away, that's something you should work on. That's completely exclusive of a romantic relationship, however.

 

If you are a passionate, opinionated person, you should not be demure and reserved on a first date. That's just lying. If you're an introvert, you should not go to clubs in Las Vegas to find a man. If you hate dogs, don't go to a dog park when you want to find a date.

 

That's what I see a lot of my friends doing. I have one girlfriend who can be the life of the party if she's drunk, but is honestly just a stay-at-home, read-a-book, take-a-bubble-bath kind of girl. She has met several men during her life of the party times, agreed to go on dates with them, and then got ticked because they wanted to go out all the time. Instead of ever letting them know what she really wants to do, she goes out with them for a few months then dumps them. If she were just up front about herself in the first place, she could possibly have found a guy who likes the indoors kinda gal by now. She never tries to find men in quiet places, it's always these insane New Orleans clubs.

 

A male friend of mine has wanted kids for as long as he could remember. He was married for a few years, but unfortunately they divorced. Shortly after his divorce, he started dating a woman he knew from the jump didn't want to have children. He suppressed his desires for children, dated this girl for about 6 months, then started bugging her about kids. Obviously, this was a dealbreaker for her, and they broke up. He's still mad about it, because he let himself develop feelings for her, and let her develop feelings for him, all the while knowing that if he stayed with her, he'd never realize a lifelong dream.

 

This is what I mean by dating efficiently. Because these two friends of mine aren't honest about their feelings and about themselves in the beginning of relationships, they waste months of their lives waiting for themselves to change or for the other person to change. If they would just be themselves from the beginning, they wouldn't be wasting their time.

 

(I really think they should date EACH OTHER, but I stay out of it. )

[Scout]

Absolutely agreed, Paisley. I have friends like that, too. And you know what? A lot of them want to go out with guys who have characteristics they have NOTHING in common with! Or, they focus on really unimportant traits. I have a friend who first and foremost, insists the guys she dates are over six feet tall. Never mind that she's 5"5, and her last 6"2 boyfriend was a self-centered, unreliable person.

 

And I myself used to be drawn to the "life of the party" kind of guys. The ones with tons of friends, a full social life. Of course, those relationships never worked out. I finally figured out I was attracted to people like that because I had my own social insecurities (most people never believe this, because I'm gregarious and outgoing, but it's just a defense mechanism because inside, I'm rather shy).

[justpaisley]

Absolutely agreed, Paisley. I have friends like that, too. And you know what? A lot of them want to go out with guys who have characteristics they have NOTHING in common with! Or, they focus on really unimportant traits. I have a friend who first and foremost, insists the guys she dates are over six feet tall. Never mind that she's 5"5, and her last 6"2 boyfriend was a self-centered, unreliable person.

 

It breaks my heart to see stuff like that. Sure, we're all attracted to different things, but that she would pass up a good man who's maybe 5'10 for a not-so-good man who's 6'2 is so ridiculous. I have friends like this too. They're just not honest with themselves, and instead of admitting fear of commitment or even just not being into a person, they'll pick out the most ridiculous things to dump a person over.

[Scout]

It breaks my heart to see stuff like that. Sure, we're all attracted to different things, but that she would pass up a good man who's maybe 5'10 for a not-so-good man who's 6'2 is so ridiculous.

 

I know. And the most frustrating thing, is that otherwise, she's an incredibly bright and intelligent woman.

 

But her choice in men is inexplicable to me. Case in point. The other day, she sent a link to a personals ad, and asked me if she should respond to it. Paisley, when I read this guy's ad, my jaw dropped. He starts off asking why are women so needy. Why can't they just give him some SPACE. Why must they talk constantly about themselves. Why must they be the center of attention. Then he signs off with "I'm a nice, caring person looking for a selfless woman. I'm 6"2 and like to snowboard."

 

I responded back to my friend and asked if she was serious. That this guy was clearly a tool. What is sad is that some types of women would actually want to "convince" this guy otherwise of his views. I call these types of women the "Uncle Toms" of our gender! Was shocked to find my friend was in that group.

[now_better]

Girls have a tendency to get attached and smother in the beginning. I've seen my girlfriends doing this countless times, and I've seen guy friends being smothered and running in the other direction.

 

For some reason, I haven't seen it happen the other way around.

 

you should watch the movie Swingers. the scene where the guy gets the girl's number at the bar, then proceeds to leave like 5 voicemails on her phone that night. it's painful to watch, but at the same time, hilarious. guys do this too especially guys that don't have much experience or aren't completely confident.

 

i have little to no experience and i'm not the most confident guy (in fact, my friends say i tend to get attached to people), but if i'm interacting with someone, i expect a response to every effort that i make. if there is no response, then the fire is dead and i'm not going to try anymore. i think that's fair and girls can certainly do the same.

[justpaisley]

Oh, good gravy. I guess she's looking for a challenge. It sucks that you're probably beating a dead horse with her, though - nothing you say is likely to change her mind. She'll either realize she's being silly and get her wits about her, or have as many cats as she is years old and nobody, over or under 6 feet tall, to help take care of them.

 

I don't understand why people respond to personal ads from people who start their ads with inflammatory statements. I did some research on personals a couple of weeks ago for an article I wrote, and I was so surprised at the amount of women who titled their ad, "All men are dogs!" (haha, I typed "gods" at first.) How is it that they feel that starting with an insult is the beginning of a long-lasting and meaningful relationship? Or, are they just hoping that some man will come along and prove them wrong?

[Scout]

if i'm interacting with someone, i expect a response to every effort that i make. if there is no response, then the fire is dead and i'm not going to try anymore.

 

Ideally in a perfect world, that would be great. But sometimes we don't get a response to every effort. If you get more responses than not, isn't that good enough?

[now_better]

I responded back to my friend and asked if she was serious. That this guy was clearly a tool. What is sad is that some types of women would actually want to "convince" this guy otherwise of his views.

 

i often find that girls like to change guys. this maybe because the guy picked the girl so the guy is comfortable with what he's getting into, but the girl likes ABC, but not XYZ about the guy. so the girl will deal with it for sometime, then when they're in a close relationship, she will start saying he needs to change this/that/etc ("oh he's so great except he's an alcoholic" "oh, i love him but he has this really bad gambling problem" "there's no one else like him except he hasn't worked in the last 10 years"). i find that in most relationships i've seen, guys tend to have the "whatever", happy-go-lucky attitude. in my personal past relationship, i'm a pretty unconditional guy so everything's fine as long as there's no hypocritical, double standard things (friend comes into town, let's go out, "no"... her friend comes into town, "we have to go out"). also, in general, girls tend to have higher standards than guys on most items so there's conflict there (brought a friend that was a girl on a camping trip... haha, bad idea).

 

my cousin just moved in w/ her b/f and she told me that she's "educating" him on things he needs to do around the place.

[Scout]

Well, I've noticed a lot of guys THINK we want to change them! And, maybe some of us do have a "fixer" complex. But, I've seen men and women fall for the "Damsel in Distress" or "Rescuer" complexes.

 

So, we should probably view these people on a case by case basis. Rather than think it's a tendency all women or all men do.

 

Again, as Paisley states, if more people would be honest with themselves about what they really need from a relationship - and then act accordingly so they get their needs met - we'd see a lot less sad stories and more happy endings.

[renaissancewoman101]

I am really surprised that my thread garnered so many varied responses. I do see Paisley's POV where you should be yourself so that you do attract the RIGHT person to you. If you constantly change yourself like a chameleon changes his spots, you are going to attract people that at the end will leave you because at some point in time, your TRUE personality will come out.

 

But then what happens when there are glaring things in our personality that scare people away? Should we change those things, and how do you know whether the glaring character "defects" are truly deficient and the cause of people not to like you, run away from you? Reason I ask that is when a breakup occurs, the person breaking up with you is LESS likely to tell you the truth about why they are breaking up with. I have seen threads on here from breakees questioning the reasons that breakers gave to them for breaking up, and some of the breakup reasons can be flimsy to say the least.

 

So, how do we know WHAT really is something that SHOULD be changed because it is a character flaw vs something that just makes us inherently different.

 

I guess I also have a hard time with dating because I dont know who I really am. I have spent most of my life trying to adapt my personality and my "soul" to fit the person I am with now. This all started from my relationship with my mother. My mother has never been happy with me. She spent most of my life telling me how ashamed she was about my height, etc and that I didnt live up to her expectations of being a doctor or engineer. I try to adapt my personality to fit her needs so I could get her approval. It never worked out.

 

I do that a lot in my relationship. I start liking a person, fall in love with someone, get scared the person will leave me, so I try to see what that person likes in a woman and adapt to it. Right now, with this new guy, I am trying to see what he is looking for in a woman, and refining myself to fit it.

 

I know it is not a good way to do things, but it is all I know. The sad thing is I am really even sure if I know who I really am.

 

As is life.

[rocio]

 

i have little to no experience and i'm not the most confident guy (in fact, my friends say i tend to get attached to people), but if i'm interacting with someone, i expect a response to every effort that i make. if there is no response, then the fire is dead and i'm not going to try anymore. i think that's fair and girls can certainly do the same.

 

I completely agree. For men or women, if you're not feeling a response, then let it go.

 

But I think a girl can show interest by flirting, smiling in that special sexy way, touching the guy subtly, or giving him compliments.

 

It's also fun to call a guy up just to say hi, talk for 3 minutes, make him laugh, and then say goodbye, without necessarily expecting a date. (But only out of the blue - not obsessively, of course!)

[rocio]

 

The sad thing is I am really even sure if I know who I really am.

 

 

Who really does? That's a question we can spend the rest of our lives answering. Don't let it get you down.

[Batya33]

And I don't understand why these days (as opposed to several years ago) you're supposed to make your on line profile "catchy" - what is wrong with writing in a straightforward way, neither embellishing nor downplaying about who you are and what you want? I had in my former on line profile "I date people, not profiles."

[gersanos]

Hi,

 

A lot of people tossed around culture in this thread and I believe that that is exactly what it boils down to. I was born in America, but my parents and extended family are from Europe. I have traveled quite a bit as well, and I have seen crystal clear differences between cultures.

 

Go and visit a foreign country (like one in Europe) and you will find a set of rules for dating or seeing someone. The game playing does not happen like it does in the States. It's more the traditional courting of taking it slow, getting to know one another, etc. It progresses slowly. If you are seeing someone else at the same time, then it is not something which people compete for, but rather, utter disrespect, and not worthy of seeing them again. In the States, I see people's interest go through the roof when one party is seeing others as well. It makes them look more attractive. There are exceptions to this of course, but more so than not, that is the way it goes.

 

I have meet people from Europe that were in long distance relationships and living on different continents. One was in Europe, and one was in the States. They had no problems with it at all, just not being able to be together sooner.

 

I know women from Europe that are married at 21/22 years old, and have no problem finishing college, and then going on to grad school while being married. And then starting a career, and having a family whenever it is right. This is next to impossible for most people (men & women) in the States.

 

Point of all this is, is that there are differences due to culture. Neither is right or wrong, but the culture has a set of rules which you must follow, or you're an oddball.

 

I like the comment that someone made about an arranged marriage. Fact is, they do work if you subscribe to that culture. The majority of arranged marriages are statistically happy and do not end in a divorce. Reason being is compatability. You have the same background, upbringing, values, and beliefs which are bestowed upon you within a certain culture. You can be arranged with someone you never meet before and live out a life happily married to them because you are compatible (think/work the same way) and it fosters love. The chemistry develops over time. Speaks volumes to me. My parents dated 3 months, and are now married ~30 years.

 

Doing it backwards, strong chemistry and hopefully compatible is a crapshoot. Great sex for a couple of weeks/months, but then...

 

Don't want to get hurt? Then don't get physical. Date someone by getting to know them first, then later get physical. People in the States do many things backwards from most cultures: sleep together right away, then let's get to know them.

[rocio]

I agree. I find people in Montreal take more of this European approach as well, which is probably why I'm shocked when I hear people in this forum saying the "L" word after 3 dates!

[now_better]

Ideally in a perfect world, that would be great. But sometimes we don't get a response to every effort. If you get more responses than not, isn't that good enough?

 

I completely agree. For men or women, if you're not feeling a response, then let it go.

 

i think ultimately you just have to be comfortable with who you are (how many thousands of times has this phrase been repeated through the forums?). my "game" flat out sucks, boy do i need practice. i'm too shy, i often times don't know what to say, i'm the exact opposite of the word "aggressive". but when i'm feeling worse than crap, my friends and relatives pick me up off the ground "you're a great guy", "you're great with kids", "great perspective on life", yadda yadda yadda. and even when you don't feel that great, it's surprising to see how people around you view who you are and wonder "what in the hell do you have to be depressed about???"

 

haha, so to get on topic. if you know you're a good person, you don't have to go around begging people to like you. you make your effort, if it's reciprocal, it's great. if not, there are other people in the world who will appreciate you for who you are. maybe my perspective will change when i'm older, but i like to stay optimistic on life.

[Honey Pumpkin]

I know what you mean, I do - but this is such a dangerous way to be. Because you cannot be certain what attracts someone to you in the first place, and by trying to change to be more like what you think they want you to be, you risk turning them off you. Does that make sense???

 

I'll give you an example - I have loads of opinions, and am pretty left-wing (liberal) in my outlook. I don't mind at all people having different views to me (ie boyfriends), but I do expect them to be able to handle me not agreeing with them, and not changing. I couldn't change that - equally I couldn't pretend to think something I didn't (abortion, welfare, sex, etc) just so we were on the same wave length. And you know what? I've been told that what men love about me is how fun and interesting I am, because I have never ever run out of new things to talk about! I couldn't be a 'yes' woman, and if I did, I wouldn't be the woman they'd fancied.

 

Another example is that I'm very straightforward and don't play games. So when I was out with this guy last night who I am absolutely crazy about, I said bluntly that I wasn't going to sleep with him. He looked a bit surprised, lol, but he was lovely to me last night and today, very very attentive. I think if I'd tried too hard to follow 'rules', I would have not been me, and out of character.

 

I think you know who you are, Renaissance Woman. I've read your posts, and you come through strongly and consistently; don't change for anyone, because it won't work. Work on changing the things you don't like about yourself, but don't try to force yourself to fit what you guess someone likes. You'll get it wrong!! Think about what you like in a man - the quirky stuff etc. It would be infuriating if the endearing thing got changed to fit in with some stupid website of how to score with women, wouldn't it????

 

Good luck!

[Batya33]

Another example is that I'm very straightforward and don't play games. So when I was out with this guy last night who I am absolutely crazy about, I said bluntly that I wasn't going to sleep with him. He looked a bit surprised, lol, but he was lovely to me last night and today, very very attentive. I think if I'd tried too hard to follow 'rules', I would have not been me, and out of character.

 

I think it's great that you were direct. I do follow the "rules" to an extent and what you decided to say is perfectly consistent with "the rules". What I do find is game playing is when a woman claims she asks men out because she is "straightforward" when it is clear her motivation is neediness. The rules are perfectly consistent with being straightforward and "yourself" as long as "yourself" is reasonably secure and remains as such even when smitten. If someone is terribly insecure the rules require acting 'as if" you were secure. Insecure/needy types should be themselves as long as they recognize that the risk is making the other person feel overwhelmed or smothered. Better in my opinion to work on raising self esteem before venturing out and trying to date or be in a relationship.

[Scout]

Better in my opinion to work on raising self esteem before venturing out and trying to date or be in a relationship.

 

Ditto that.

[Aldobrand]

Rules or not rules... that is the question. One may take them with a pinch of salt, observe a few and disregard others. (Take a closer look: they are just marketing strategies. They simply aim at saying: I am more expensive.)

 

The strange thing is that, if you abide to The Rules, as a man, you show that you can do anything for a woman. But will the woman ever show you her true colours and give you a few hints of her real character, or will she simply enjoy all the benefits of The Rules until she has obtained the interest of someone more profitable than you are?

[DN]

The strange thing is that, if you abide to The Rules, as a man, you show that you can do anything for a woman. But will the woman ever show you her true colours and give you a few hints of her real character, or will she simply enjoy all the benefits of The Rules until she has obtained the interest of someone more profitable than you are?

Which may explain why the authors of 'The Rules' found husbands following their own ideas but are now both divorced.

[dreamguy]

If I could summarize why games are played throughout dating and life, I would say it involves a lot of psychology, manipulation of human emotions, and knowledge of human nature.

 

Would life be easier if we all wore signs that said, "I like you" or "I don't like you," sure it would. But that's not how we operate. We operate on emotions most of the time. The basic principle of knowing how to make someone feel a certain way, at a certain time (call it manipulation if you want) is useful knowledge.

 

Agreed, if we all wore signs that said, "I like you" or "I don't like you" then life would be easier but it would also be boring. It would have no charm. When you already know the entire outcome of a situation it becomes like watching an old movie you have already seen.

You want a relationship that keeps you guessing... at least at first... in the courtship phase and later on, even if you get married, it's nice to still surprise your other half.

Nothing kills love like habit and predictability.

 

renaissancewoman101 it's always better to let him take the relationship to the next stage even when you already know/feel you are ready to take the leap. Trust me, you will enjoy it more

[MissDashwood]

I'm in college right now and I like this guy who I have been told is either shy and so I should give him more signals, or I'm too available for him and should back off and wait for him to do something first, or that he's a player playing the game and trying to find someone amongst many. I like him and I have been told that it would seem he likes me, but no one has made a definitive move yet. I'm tired of sitting around wondering what that dinner last weekend meant or whether it means anything that he likes to sit near me during movies in our house lounge in my dorm! Or what it means that he gets less talkative in periodic installments or isn't super super interested in me, like jumping at every opportunity to hang out with me, etc. Does that mean anything that he puts homework ahead of a potential girlfriend or whatever? I don't. But I've been told it means he's "just not that into me" or whatever!

 

Can't I just go up to him tonight after he and I go see Superman Returns and bluntly ask him if he likes me more than a friend? See what he says, and tell him that I like him more than a friend, and see where it all goes? I think it would make things a lot more clear than what they are now!!!