Nice guys do finish last!!!

[jordan_2]

Shidoshi wrote:

Certain behaviors tend to turn women off, those behaviors should be identified and corrected ... . There are no guarantees, obviously, but some guys CAN be successful with a little attitude adjustment.

This sounds like a person who wants to self-analyze and understand himself and make an adjustment, and I was writing to that person. Now you seem to be saying something very different when you ask "What person is going to be willing to really analyze themselves to figure out why they behave a certain way?" Do you see that you seem to be flip-flopping? So now I'll say if someone isn't willing to analyze himself in order to understand why he's not getting what he wants, then I wouldn't know how to advise him, and I wouldn't even try because I know it takes a commitment to try to understand this. And I'm not trying to be unkind here, but I really don't understand what you're after.

 

 

ditto Miss M,

I think that the guys who not so much analyse themselves, but try to reflect on their own personalities, are already on the road to a true relationship...

I think that these "jerks" don't really care about their attitude or persona, either because they are too over confident, or in most cases, extremely insecure.

[Shidoshi]

Shidoshi wrote:

Quote:

In all cases, I'd say that guys usually get girls because they make her feel as if she matters to them, as if she's important to him enough for him to pay attention to what she's saying, how she feels.

 

See, this is where we start to part ways. All nice guys do this without a doubt, but does it help? Not really, the girls they pursue are treated like queens anyway, there's no doubt in their minds as to how important they are to these guys.

 

All nice guys do this? Well, if you're the kind of nice guy who already does this, then my comments certainly wouldn't apply to you. But I've read a lot of posts written by guys who say they're "nice," but when they describe their behavior they really don't treat women like queens.

I'm not in need of advice myself (even though we all do at times), I've been posting to offer advice. How can you label the guys you're describing as "nice" if they don't treat women like this? That's pretty much the definition of the so called nice guy, you know, the guys who treat women like princesses.

But if a girl clearly gets good treatment and knows how important she is to a guy, and still doesn't want to be with him, then of course there is something else going on and my comments don't address that.

Well, that actually IS what I'm talking about.

Shidoshi wrote:

Quote:

The jerks also do this, but with them it's usually a front, a performance. It's something they do as a strategy. Jerks get girls because they actually study the girl very intensely, like a predator.

 

I think this is a common misconception. I know some guys you could honestly call jerks, trust me, they would never put that much effort into getting these girls. They ARE smooth, but it's part of their persona, they don't study these chicks at all, hell they even forget their names sometimes.

 

It's not a misconception, Shidoshi. This is my exact experience with jerks. Some of them really do act like this. I guess I don't have as much direct knowledge of the other kinds you're describing. I've had my specific blind spots and have fallen in with a certain kind of jerk and was speaking from that perspective. But I also know there are some others like you describe that I've been able to bypass. But just because you've observed different types of jerk, that doesn't mean the kind I've known are non-existent, or as you said, "a common misconception." They may be non-existent to you, but not to me. And yes, the ones I've known actually do put that much effort, even more, into getting a girl.

Fair enough, and I do realize that there are guys out there like this, but I also think people expect these stereotypical types of behaviors with jerks and not all of them operate that way. I would actually call the guys you described as "players." Even though it's almost synonymous with "jerk" there is a difference.

Shidoshi wrote:

Quote:

Of course I'm not suggesting anybody should be a fake like the jerks but telling the girl what she wants to hear is what the jerks do. It's not that girls like jerks... it's because jerks figure out how to feed her all the lines he knows she wants to hear. He pretends to care about her and love her even when he doesn't. It's just a magnificent performance. That's why so many girls fall for him. And the entire time he's wooing her, he's reading every very subtle clue she's gives, and he's constantly making split-second decisions, adjusting his strategies according to what he's reading in her behavior.

 

Again, some of this is true, but you're generalizing way too much about how these guys behave overall. I mentioned the fact that I know some guys you could call jerks/players but your description is sounds almost like something out of a movie. Really, these guys aren't putting that much effort into it, some may, but this is not the case from my experience. Women love jerks, for the most part, because they are confident in what they do, and they don't apologize for it.

 

Shidoshi, honestly I find your comments here arrogant. Again, this is my direct experience I've described, and definitely not a movie. You say "not the case from my experience"? Well, I guess we could compare which of us has had the most direct contact with jerks, which one of us has been most approached by jerks and been up close and personal with many of their strategies first hand. But then, that would probably be counter-productive?

Arrogant? Not at all, I think we're just talking about different types of "jerks." The ones you've been describing, as I mentioned above, sound like "players," and yes I guess they could fall under the jerk category but they aren't who I'm really referring to because their sole mission is to seduce and move on to the next victim (if you want to call it that). Mind you, what they do have in common is the level of confidence in themselves to get what they want. No one can use "techniques" and expect to pull off what these guys do. Your "inner game" has to be just as strong (confidence).

Shidoshi wrote:

Quote:

The kind of nice guys who gets nice girls... I'd say what ShySoul keeps saying is key.

 

You know what though, the guys who are complaining don't want these "nice" girls. They want the girls they're attracted to, to be nice, and that's where the problem starts.

 

Well, the guys want something that doesn't exist then? Do they(you) want me to explain how to get a girl to be nice when she isn't? I honestly didn't know that's what you were asking. And I honestly wouldn't know how to advise you on that one.

Again, I'm not asking for advice myself, I offer my experience to these guys because I've been through what a lot them are going through now, and I've learned so much from my own mistakes. It's much the same type of complaint you hear from some women, they're frustrated not because they can't get any man, but they aren't getting the ones they "want."

Shidoshi wrote:

Quote:

If you're a nice guy, and if you're being nice in order to get a good result, it's just not the same.

 

Yes, but how many guys actually "know" why they're being nice?

 

Well, I thought some of my comments might help to point that out. In fact, that's precisely why I mentioned it, because sometimes guys don't know they're being nice in order to get a good result. That's why I brought it up. Some guys think they're being nice when they really are just being selfish. And a guy might not realize he's doing it, but a girl might pick up on it immediately, and might be turned off by it. And I thought maybe something I've written can help the guys take another look at themselves to see what is their real motivation. But when you counter with, "but how many guys actually know why they're being nice," at this point I'm not sure what you expect me to say.

Question, how is a girl going to be able to pick up on a selfish "nice guy" immediately? Obviously, when a guy is keen on you he's going to try and make you feel good, unless she's with him for some time, how will she know he's using this to manipulate her?

Shidoshi wrote:

On top of that, how many will actually admit that they behave a certain way in order to achieve something? It's not as simple as it sounds. If I were a nice guy reading this, of course I'd like to think I'm nice just because I'm a good person. What person is going to be willing to really analyze themselves to figure out why they behave a certain way?

 

Honestly Shidoshi, now this sounds like you're whining. I know it's not simple, and I never intended to imply that it was.

Why would I be whining? We're just getting to the fundamental reasons why we disagree on certain things. I'm not asking for any help in understanding women, I believe I understand them quite well actually.

Shidoshi wrote:

Certain behaviors tend to turn women off, those behaviors should be identified and corrected ... . There are no guarantees, obviously, but some guys CAN be successful with a little attitude adjustment.

This sounds like a person who wants to self-analyze and understand himself and make an adjustment, and I was writing to that person. Now you seem to be saying something very different when you ask "What person is going to be willing to really analyze themselves to figure out why they behave a certain way?" Do you see that you seem to be flip-flopping? So now I'll say if someone isn't willing to analyze himself in order to understand why he's not getting what he wants, then I wouldn't know how to advise him, and I wouldn't even try because I know it takes a commitment to try to understand this. And I'm not trying to be unkind here, but I really don't understand what you're after.

That's why women and men have such different methods in relationship advice. I offer advice that covers the guys who don't know why they're nice, and if they do realize the reason behind it, it makes it that much easier. The "truth" is hard to swallow for some people, that's why I don't ask that these guys "analyze" themselves, that takes a really open-minded person, which I find to be pretty rare.

 

I like your reply, it helps me understand where you're coming from. Try to look at what I say more objectively without applying "arrogance" and "whining" to it. I could say the same thing about some of your comments but I don't think it's relevant to point out, and usually when I get that frank it turns into an entirely different discussion.

[Shidoshi]

ditto Miss M,

I think that the guys who not so much analyse themselves, but try to reflect on their own personalities, are already on the road to a true relationship...

I think that these "jerks" don't really care about their attitude or persona, either because they are too over confident, or in most cases, extremely insecure.

I'd say that "reflecting" on their own personalities IS an analysis. I don't see anything wrong with self analysis, I believe it can actually help you more. I also don't think jerks are all either over confident, or extremely insecure, after all, they're getting women to fall for them. Speaking as a guy, success with women is a very strong ego booster.

[jordan_2]

The context of analysis just seemed to technical for me shidoshi, that's all...

sorry about that, but i just thought that self reflection showed a more humaine spiritual maturity as opposed to just the more negative connotation of "self analysis"...

 

as for the whole overconfidence or insecurity of the so called "jerk"...

yes they are getting women to fall for them, but it's for all the wrong reasons. By acting a certain way, they can attract women with their so called "bad boy" attitude, but this can very well be a facade covering up the fact that they do not know how to connect emotionally, so that once this attraction has formed, these guys feel the need to drop teh girl and find another one in fear that they can't get passed the beginning phases of a relationship.

 

and that is what i meant by insecure....it's insecurity with their emotions.

[Miss M]

I think that the guys who not so much analyse themselves, but try to reflect on their own personalities, are already on the road to a true relationship...

I think that these "jerks" don't really care about their attitude or persona, either because they are too over confident, or in most cases, extremely insecure.

Hey, Jordan, nice to see you're still around.

As to over-confidence and insecurity... when I looked closer, those two things really seem like the same thing. IOW jerks compensate for their insecurity by being overly-confident. But it's still all fake stuff.

 

And I also agree that they don't care. And that's also a good reason for us women to stay away from them.

[Miss M]

I'm not in need of advice myself (even though we all do at times), I've been posting to offer advice.

Well, I've been gradually figuring that out about you. Sorry, I'm not so swift all the time. So I'm curious... when you ask questions about what nice guys should do, are you asking on behalf of the ones who DO want advice? They can't ask for themselves and need you to be their voice?

 

How can you label the guys you're describing as "nice" if they don't treat women like this? That's pretty much the definition of the so called nice guy, you know, the guys who treat women like princesses.

Well, part of all of this has been the confusion about the definition of what a nice guy is. I'm using the "label" that others started using here, but the whole point I've been making is that the "nice" label is being used by guys who think themselves as nice when they really aren't. I didn't say that I thought they were nice, because actually I don't think they are. That's what I've been trying to say.

 

But if a girl clearly gets good treatment and knows how important she is to a guy, and still doesn't want to be with him, then of course there is something else going on and my comments don't address that.

Well, that actually IS what I'm talking about.

This must be one of those times when we miss-communicated. Without realizing it we were talking about two different things.

 

So maybe the guy is just not the one she wants? You know, she's not obligated to like him romantically just because he's genuinely nice to her. And I really don't consider that as "queenly" treatment if he's thinking her response to him is obligatory. Or maybe I'm still misunderstanding what you're talking about? Please explain further if you still think I'm missing something here.

 

Fair enough, and I do realize that there are guys out there like this, but I also think people expect these stereotypical types of behaviors with jerks and not all of them operate that way.

And I also would agree with you. In fact one of the reasons those kinds of guys succeed is because many of them don't do it in a stereotypical way that can be nailed down. But often the woman who falls for him is seen by others as "wanting a jerk" when it's very possible she was just duped because she wasn't sharp enough to understand his game.

 

I would actually call the guys you described as "players." Even though it's almost synonymous with "jerk" there is a difference.

I think I get your point. I guess you see jerks as the ones who are bold and not trying to be sly about it? I don't have much experience with that type of guy and really don't understand him. And I can't say why women go for him because I don't, and I also don't personally know any women who do. The ones I've seen at a distance actually look very unsuccessful and lonely, kinda pitiful really. But I guess there are some who are having some success with that? I don't find that kind of guy appealing, but at least he's upfront about it, and I'm grateful for that because it helps me know to keep away from him. But I also see players as jerks because they're deceptive liars. To me, a deceptive liar is also a jerk.

 

Shidoshi, honestly I find your comments here arrogant....

Arrogant? Not at all, I think we're just talking about different types of "jerks."

But that's not why I said you were arrogant. I said arrogant because you dismissed my direct experience and labeled it as a generalization. And you said it sounded more like a "movie" which implied it wasn't real and that I was making it up. And you said why women love jerks when I think you can't really speak for women. That's why I said "arrogant." I think you should ask women, let them speak for themselves, instead of dismissing their reality and/or drawing your own conclusions about it. And I think a woman is more likely to tell what's happening with her when others(men) stop dismissing her, or telling her how she thinks, or telling her what she thinks, or why she does what she does.

 

Again, I'm not asking for advice myself, I offer my experience to these guys because I've been through what a lot them are going through now, and I've learned so much from my own mistakes.

Like I said before, although you weren't asking for advice, you were asking questions as if you were asking for advice. At least that's how it seemed to me. So this is weird. Neither one of us is looking for advice. So I'm not really sure how we ended up discussing this?

 

Question, how is a girl going to be able to pick up on a selfish "nice guy" immediately?

(So this must be one of those questions you're asking on behalf of others???

 

Well I've been trying to answer this same question for 30 years and finally I'm getting a better understanding. The clues are very subtle, and a woman has to be like a very skilled investigator and that's very difficult. But that seems necessary when they guy won't/can't cooperate about understanding his own behavior and being upfront about it. I totally agree that the selfish nice guy is often very difficult to discern.

 

Obviously, when a guy is keen on you he's going to try and make you feel good, unless she's with him for some time, how will she know he's using this to manipulate her?

Well, this is exactly my point and why I've been trying to give "advice." It's darned confusing for a woman because it all looks the same and sometimes there's no way to tell the difference. But it would help this whole relationship dynamic if the guy would do more from his end of it to help keep things clear. So if any guy has been unwittingly playing a deceptive game with women, seeming nice when he's really selfish, and if he wants to stop, the first thing is to take a hard and honest look at himself, examine his behavior and motivations. If he's not willing/able to do that, women have no choice but to either get smarter or else get burned.

 

That's why women and men have such different methods in relationship advice. I offer advice that covers the guys who don't know why they're nice, and if they do realize the reason behind it, it makes it that much easier. The "truth" is hard to swallow for some people, that's why I don't ask that these guys "analyze" themselves, that takes a really open-minded person, which I find to be pretty rare.

Um... this sounds as if you've appointed yourself as the expert on them too? And you don't ask them to analyze themselves? ... Because you think that's too difficult for them? ... And you've decided to take that burden off of them, the poor dears, and you'll take charge of it for them? ... Because you're so much more skilled at it? ... after all, it's such a "rare" trait that fortunately you possess? ... Interesting...

 

Well, I would ask them to examine themselves because I think it's best done that way. I guess I don't trust the judgment of your surrogate-analysis in this way because I think people tend to know themselves better than anybody else when they self-analyze. And even if I'm wrong about that, I still don't like your method. Oh well.

 

I like your reply, it helps me understand where you're coming from. Try to look at what I say more objectively without applying "arrogance" and "whining" to it. I could say the same thing about some of your comments but I don't think it's relevant to point out, and usually when I get that frank it turns into an entirely different discussion.

Again... interesting.

[ShySoul]

Thanks Miss M, nice to know someone is keeping the order while I'm away.

 

when you ask questions about what nice guys should do, are you asking on behalf of the ones who DO want advice? They can't ask for themselves and need you to be their voice?

 

Often times when people give advice to others, they are really giving advice to themselves, even if they are not away. If we think about why we really post what we do, we may find out things about ourselves we hadn't considered before. But thats only if we are able to keep a clear mind about things and are open. Something to think about.

 

How can you label the guys you're describing as "nice" if they don't treat women like this? That's pretty much the definition of the so called nice guy, you know, the guys who treat women like princesses.

 

As I have said, the definition of a nice guy is merely a guy who is nice. Looking at what nice means shows that this guy is consistantly caring, thoughtful, considerate, generous, helpful, does the right thing, etc. When you Shidoshi say nice you are referring to an insecure person with no confidence. That is in not a real nice guy. Someone who worships a women to his detriment is insecure. But a nice guy does not do that. A nice guy is simple a nice guy.

 

Oh ya, and anyone who has ever been in love will look at his partner as a princess, angel, etc. It's part of love.

 

So maybe the guy is just not the one she wants? You know, she's not obligated to like him romantically just because he's genuinely nice to her. And I really don't consider that as "queenly" treatment if he's thinking her response to him is obligatory. Or maybe I'm still misunderstanding what you're talking about? Please explain further if you still think I'm missing something here.

 

Shidoshi, you are blaming the guy being nice when the real issue is simple that the two are not compatible. Miss M is right here, the two just are not meant to be together. And if the guy is being nice to try to hold onto her, then that isn't genuinely nice. When you are genuinely nice, you don't expect anything in return, accept for the basic respect you are entitled to as a human being. Someone who is nice is nice because he honestly believes in treating others right. He does not expect her to respond in any particular way.

 

But often the woman who falls for him is seen by others as "wanting a jerk" when it's very possible she was just duped because she wasn’t sharp enough to understand his game.

 

And playing that kind of game is part of what being a jerk is.

 

But I also see players as jerks because they're deceptive liars. To me, a deceptive liar is also a jerk.

 

Agreed. If there is a difference between players and jerks it is slight and pointless. Both are still committing acts that are harmful to others and to themselves and will ultimately find themselves unfulfilled.

 

I think you should ask women, let them speak for themselves, instead of dismissing their reality and/or drawing your own conclusions about it. And I think a woman is more likely to tell what's happening with her when others(men) stop dismissing her, or telling her how she thinks, or telling her what she thinks, or why she does what she does.

 

Yep. What continually amazes me is that guys post on these subjects without listening to what the women say. They think they know how women think when they aren't really listening to women or approaching it from a females perspective. They attack the argument from a males viewpoint. And less I get accused of the same thing, what I've said has come from females I've talked to about this stuff.

 

Question, how is a girl going to be able to pick up on a selfish "nice guy" immediately

 

Which is why they are the worst kind of guys. At least jerks and players are obvious once you start picking up on their games, thus being easier to avoid. But its the ones who pretend to be nice when they are really not that hurt women the most and give real nice guys a bad name. You don't tell them immediately. The women needs to be careful and cautious about what happens, taking it slow. If the guy is a real nice guy, he will go along with it and slowly she'll be able to tell hes not selfish. If the guy is selfish, it will start to show through because a persons real colors always do.

 

But it would help this whole relationship dynamic if the guy would do more from his end of it to help keep things clear. So if any guy has been unwittingly playing a deceptive game with women, seeming nice when he's really selfish, and if he wants to stop, the first thing is to take a hard and honest look at himself, examine his behavior and motivations. If he's not willing/able to do that, women have no choice but to either get smarter or else get burned.

 

I don't know why I'm posting on this again, you're giving better advice then I can give.

 

Well, I would ask them to examine themselves because I think it's best done that way. I guess I don’t trust the judgment of your surrogate-analysis in this way because I think people tend to know themselves better than anybody else when they self-analyze. And even if I'm wrong about that, I still don’t like your method.

 

Yep, agree again. Shidoshi, you say that you try to get guys to realize the reason they are nice. How do you know the reason you give is the right reason? You don't know these people, yet you assume that what you say is why they are nice. As I said earlier, you are confused on what exactly a nice guy is, so how can you say you are giving them the truth on why they are a nice guy? Your advice does not appeal to someone who is nice, it appeals to someone who plays games or demonstrates jerk like characteristics already.

 

And in assuming that they aren't open minded enough to understand themselves, you aren't even giving them a chance. If you assume that these people can't understand things, people are going to be less likely to listen to you. Few people are going to listen to someone who doesn't believe they are capable of understanding themselves.

 

Furthermore, if we want these guys to understand there relationship problems with women, wouldn't the best people to listen to be women? They understand themselves better then guys and can help them out more.

[Shidoshi]

I guess I'll reply when I have time, but there's no way I'm going to respond to both you Miss M, and Shysoul, this discussion isn't worth that much effort. Maybe in a different thread or different topic I'll debate with you Shy, but for now I think it's pretty obvious we won't ever reach any common ground or understanding on this topic. I say you're wrong, you say I'm wrong, it really can't go any further than that. I'm interested in what Miss M has to say because she's simply a different person, and we haven't gotten to the point where we should just call it quits (unless she gets bored with it I guess). I'm just saying this so you don't think I'm intentionally ignoring you, I feel we really can't get anywhere beyond what we've already discussed. I guess you're still free to post whatever you like, but it's just too much work for me to reply to two people in this way.

[Shidoshi]

Shidoshi wrote:

I'm not in need of advice myself (even though we all do at times), I've been posting to offer advice.

 

Well, I've been gradually figuring that out about you. Sorry, I'm not so swift all the time. So I'm curious... when you ask questions about what nice guys should do, are you asking on behalf of the ones who DO want advice? They can't ask for themselves and need you to be their voice?

I'm not asking what nice guys should do, I already have my opinions and theories about what they should do and why. I'm addressing the people on this forum who disagree with what I believe nice guys should do to become more successful with women.

Shidoshi wrote:

How can you label the guys you're describing as "nice" if they don't treat women like this? That's pretty much the definition of the so called nice guy, you know, the guys who treat women like princesses.

 

Well, part of all of this has been the confusion about the definition of what a nice guy is. I'm using the "label" that others started using here, but the whole point I've been making is that the "nice" label is being used by guys who think themselves as nice when they really aren't. I didn't say that I thought they were nice, because actually I don't think they are. That's what I've been trying to say.

We all behave a certain way to get what we want right? If you're interested in a guy, you'll probably flirt, make conversation, and be overall kind to this person right? The motivation isn't purely just to make HIM feel good, it's to make him feel a "connection" with you so things will hopefully move beyond just friendly chatting (who knows where it will lead, but that's the general idea). Lets say you tried this same approach with many guys but none of them ever became interested in being more than just platonic friends with you (if that). If you see women around you who use a different approach, which you don't really agree with and/or understand, but somehow it works for THEM, you'd become a little frustrated wouldn't you? I think this is what a lot of nice guys experience.

 

At what point can you determine that someone is doing this solely for "selfish" reasons? I'm asking you this because I want your thoughts, not because I'm searching for an answer for myself.

So maybe the guy is just not the one she wants? You know, she's not obligated to like him romantically just because he's genuinely nice to her. And I really don't consider that as "queenly" treatment if he's thinking her response to him is obligatory. Or maybe I'm still misunderstanding what you're talking about? Please explain further if you still think I'm missing something here.

This sort of ties into my questions above.

Shidoshi wrote:

Fair enough, and I do realize that there are guys out there like this, but I also think people expect these stereotypical types of behaviors with jerks and not all of them operate that way.

 

And I also would agree with you. In fact one of the reasons those kinds of guys succeed is because many of them don't do it in a stereotypical way that can be nailed down. But often the woman who falls for him is seen by others as "wanting a jerk" when it's very possible she was just duped because she wasn't sharp enough to understand his game.

I think the women who are labelled as "wanting a jerk" have a "pattern" of hooking up with them. It's one thing to be decieved and to learn from it, but chances are if it happens multiple times (a pattern) it says a lot about the woman who chooses them. There are a minority of guys who are good at this (I happen to know one), but you usually find them operating in places more conducive to picking up women such as clubs/bars and other hot spots. Also, I don't think it's so much that women want jerks, but they want a guy with jerk qualities such as confidence and the ability to sweep them off their feet (as cliche as that sounds these days).

Shidoshi wrote:

I would actually call the guys you described as "players." Even though it's almost synonymous with "jerk" there is a difference.

 

I think I get your point. I guess you see jerks as the ones who are bold and not trying to be sly about it? I don't have much experience with that type of guy and really don't understand him. And I can't say why women go for him because I don't, and I also don't personally know any women who do. The ones I've seen at a distance actually look very unsuccessful and lonely, kinda pitiful really. But I guess there are some who are having some success with that? I don't find that kind of guy appealing, but at least he's upfront about it, and I'm grateful for that because it helps me know to keep away from him. But I also see players as jerks because they're deceptive liars. To me, a deceptive liar is also a jerk.

I think you're being too specific with what you call a jerk. A jerk doesn't HAVE to be a liar and solely after you for sex. A jerk can be a regular guy who tends to put his needs before yours, and behaves like a jerk on occasions. Hell, I've been called a jerk (not that you'd be surprised ). A guy can be faithful, charismatic, confident, and still mistreat his woman. I'd say players are a different breed of jerk, their sole purpose is to get sex and leave, but they still possess characteristics/behaviors that are attractive to women.

Shidoshi wrote:

Quote:

Shidoshi, honestly I find your comments here arrogant....

 

Arrogant? Not at all, I think we're just talking about different types of "jerks."

 

But that's not why I said you were arrogant. I said arrogant because you dismissed my direct experience and labeled it as a generalization. And you said it sounded more like a "movie" which implied it wasn't real and that I was making it up. And you said why women love jerks when I think you can't really speak for women. That's why I said "arrogant." I think you should ask women, let them speak for themselves, instead of dismissing their reality and/or drawing your own conclusions about it. And I think a woman is more likely to tell what's happening with her when others(men) stop dismissing her, or telling her how she thinks, or telling her what she thinks, or why she does what she does.

I wasn't dismissing your experience, I have no reason to believe it didn't happen to you, but yes I thought you were generalizing a bit much on how these guys behave. I said it sounded like it was out of a movie because of how you described their behavior, not that some don't do that, but again it really just boiled down to what our own definitions of what a jerk is. I'm hoping what I've written so far will clear some of the misunderstanding.

Shidoshi wrote:

Again, I'm not asking for advice myself, I offer my experience to these guys because I've been through what a lot them are going through now, and I've learned so much from my own mistakes.

 

Like I said before, although you weren't asking for advice, you were asking questions as if you were asking for advice. At least that's how it seemed to me. So this is weird. Neither one of us is looking for advice. So I'm not really sure how we ended up discussing this?

As I mentioned at the top of this post, I'm merely responding to the people who disagree with my thoughts on the topic.

Shidoshi wrote:

Question, how is a girl going to be able to pick up on a selfish "nice guy" immediately?

 

(So this must be one of those questions you're asking on behalf of others??? )

 

Well I've been trying to answer this same question for 30 years and finally I'm getting a better understanding. The clues are very subtle, and a woman has to be like a very skilled investigator and that's very difficult. But that seems necessary when they guy won't/can't cooperate about understanding his own behavior and being upfront about it. I totally agree that the selfish nice guy is often very difficult to discern.

I'm asking because I'm curious about what you think, that's all. See, this is a double edged sword. These subtle clues you're looking for are part of the "mystery." If a guy is too upfront about his feelings that can be a turn off. Maybe not for you, as it seems you want something more solid (although I don't know what your time frame is on getting it), and that's to be expected especially when you get older, but even then it depends on the circumstances.

 

I don't believe the guys you describe are complaining about being nice guys and not succeeding. You're talking about guys who are trying to get a quick lay. These guys don't need any advice from us, they'll just move on to their next target if it doesn't work on you.

Shidoshi wrote:

That's why women and men have such different methods in relationship advice. I offer advice that covers the guys who don't know why they're nice, and if they do realize the reason behind it, it makes it that much easier. The "truth" is hard to swallow for some people, that's why I don't ask that these guys "analyze" themselves, that takes a really open-minded person, which I find to be pretty rare.

 

Um... this sounds as if you've appointed yourself as the expert on them too? And you don't ask them to analyze themselves? ... Because you think that's too difficult for them? ... And you've decided to take that burden off of them, the poor dears, and you'll take charge of it for them? ... Because you're so much more skilled at it? ... after all, it's such a "rare" trait that fortunately you possess? ... Interesting...

Hmmm......you know, maybe you could say I'm an expert. When a guy like myself gives advice to guys who claim to be nice and yet have difficulty in getting women, it's not really productive to get into WHY they're nice, we all know why they're being nice, it's just that their particular methods aren't working for them. Self-analysis is important but it depends on the circumstances. If a guy is getting first dates, but nothing more, it might be as simple as him being too forward on his dates and he's not relaxed enough. I'd say an analysis is needed depending on the indivduals particular situation, but I'm also not a therapist so I can only offer but so much.

Well, I would ask them to examine themselves because I think it's best done that way. I guess I don't trust the judgment of your surrogate-analysis in this way because I think people tend to know themselves better than anybody else when they self-analyze. And even if I'm wrong about that, I still don't like your method. Oh well.

It still requires a very open-minded person to give themselves an honest assessment, and even if it is, they may not understand it enough to make necessary changes. Isn't a surrogate-analysis what shrinks perform?

Shidoshi wrote:

I like your reply, it helps me understand where you're coming from. Try to look at what I say more objectively without applying "arrogance" and "whining" to it. I could say the same thing about some of your comments but I don't think it's relevant to point out, and usually when I get that frank it turns into an entirely different discussion.

 

Again... interesting.

On second thought, feel free to call me what you want because it really doesn't bother me, in fact I think it brings life to the argument. It's just funny because the last time I did it to a female poster she went off on me for being condescending and then she would start arguing in all sorts of different directions. I wish I could speak my mind freely on these boards but I have to be as politically correct as I can be otherwise I'd probably get banned.

[DN]

Miss M wrote my remark about testosterone offensive?

 

Yes, it is, at least to me. Frankly I am very tired of the sexist and demeaning notion that men are completely ruled by testosterone. It is a cheap shot unworthy of a place in any debate and is no different than saying that women are helpless creatures at the mercy of their hormones. It is inaccurate, demonstrably untrue and is usually resorted to in lieu of a good counter-argument.

 

It is time that such generalisations about either gender were not made or tolerated. It is sexist and sexism is no different than racism.

[Alabama]

Bingo. I've heard woman say that all men are perverts. Either I guess this based on past history or they actually believe this. Sad. But then you have the opposite end of the spectrum, where nice guys complain about not getting girlfriend. So some people can't find love...tough sh!t. Sometimes in life you have to try and if you don't succeed, then oh well. If you actually believe that 'nice guys finish last' then you already know your answer.

[ShySoul]

Shidoshi,

 

So basically your saying that you can't debate with two people at once. Because really, your posting pattern on these topics have demonstrated a constant desire to get others into arguments. Your thrill and enjoyment comes not from what is being said and working something out, you never really wanted to come to an agreement with me you wanted to try to rile me up (as you once admitted). Now that you see that won't happen, you try to do that to someone else. Go ahead, Miss M will tell ya pretty much what I would tell ya.

 

Bottom line to this whole thing, a nice guy is nice because that is who he is. He doesn't act any way to get a girl, he just acts like himself. If that attracts someone, so be it.

[Caldus]

Holy crap that's a lot of text on the screen.

[Shinobie]

Lol why yes it is a lot of text and im too tired to want to read it all.

[Caldus]

Lol why yes it is a lot of text and im too tired to want to read it all.

 

Yeah can we get cliff notes on all of this?

[Miss M]

Shidoshi, I wrote the following on my WP even before I logged on to read ShySoul's comments, but it's along a similar line of thinking....

 

 

-------------------------

we haven't gotten to the point where we should just call it quits (unless she gets bored with it I guess)

This could be a key point. Where you started (your agenda), and where you are now seem to be very different. Feels like there's been a "bait and switch" maneuver going on here, (among other things). I said in the beginning that I'm not usually interested in discussing with someone who has very different opinions from mine. And in your last post you said you're SPECIFICALLY interested in discussing with those who believe different from you. So aren't we really at cross purposes? I do see I misunderstood your intentions, but did you also misunderstand mine, or did it not matter to you?

When you wrote...

I might not agree with you, but atleast the argument could develop into something more useful and understandable.

I guess I should have paid more attention to the word "argument' and less attention to the word "useful." My bad.

 

But your comment here makes it a bit more clear to me...

I'm addressing the people on this forum who disagree with what I believe nice guys should do to become more successful with women.

Except it seems the guys you're counseling aren't actually "nice," and it seems you aren't interested in helping them understand that. So are you trying to help them be more manipulative? I really find it difficult to tell from what you've been writing.

 

I'm addressing the people on this forum who disagree with what I believe nice guys should do to become more successful with women.

So basically it seems you and I have fundamental disagreement about this whole "nice guy" issue and that "disagreement" is actually the hook for you? You're just interested in an "argument"? Since I know what I believe, then I can just assume you believe the opposite and have it about right? If I had understood that better in the beginning, I certainly would have opted out much earlier.

 

Shidoshi, I find your last post is full of inconsistencies, like you're contradicting yourself while pointing at me as the cause of the contradicition. As an example... telling me I have a limited definition of "jerk" when actually that was YOU who originally expressed that kind of limitation, while it was me who was saying the word covers more than your limited definition of it? More flip-flopping? Very shabby, Shidoshi. And I could easily challenge you and counter point by point, but I'm not feeling that I want to spend any more of my time that way, especially since there is no end to it. And I see it as serving no useful purpose except as your entertainment. And since you've changed your stance on so many points here, that's another reason I don't post to those with whom I disagree. Too many occasions of flip-flopping for my taste. Or I could just suggest that you do a self-examination on your own post to save me the trouble. As I read your post I see your entire premise as inconsistent and shifty. And just like the guys who believe they're "nice" when they actually aren't, your real agenda here is difficult to pin down.

 

Hell, I've been called a jerk (not that you'd be surprised ).

You're right. I'm not surprised.

-------------------

 

So from ShySoul's comments I guess a couple of us got some clarity on some things after all, so I guess it wasn't a total waste.

[Miss M]

Miss M wrote

Is my remark about testosterone offensive?

 

Yes, it is, at least to me.... ...

That's 2 for 2, DN.

 

 

Your complaint is noted...

[DN]

Miss M wrote

Is my remark about testosterone offensive?

 

Yes, it is, at least to me.... ...

That's 2 for 2, DN.

 

 

Your complaint is noted...

 

Sorry, don't understand the reference about 2 for 2.

[ShySoul]

Yeah can we get cliff notes on all of this?

 

Wait for my book, "Nice guys guide to dating and jerks are the real dummies."

 

Miss M,

 

Remind me never to get on your bad side.

[corvidae]

I could present an airtight argument right now that would astonish you with its wisdom and make all of you agree with me utterly and totally; but I don't feel like it. So instead I'll just swan out of here with a smug expression leaving you all feeling vaguely irritated.

[Caldus]

I could present an airtight argument right now that would astonish you with its wisdom and make all of you agree with me utterly and totally; but I don't feel like it. So instead I'll just swan out of here with a smug expression leaving you all feeling vaguely irritated.

 

Ah dang corvidae you're trippin'! 8)

[Shidoshi]

Shysoul, you've been making the same arguments forever, I realize that WE aren't going to come to any agreement (or even agree to disagree), and because I now realize that it is pointless, it HAS to mean all I wanted to do was argue? What point do I have to continue this particular debate with you if it doesn't go anywhere? Do you not see how long these debates stretch for, with no end in sight or even middle ground? There's no way in hell I'm going to debate with two people at the same time when the text on the screen takes up a million pages. YOU don't like what I have to say and vice versa, stop trying to make me out to be some villan when you're doing the exact same thing I am. It's not about getting you riled up, you do a fine job of that on your own, I mistakenly believed early on that you could handle some of my comments because you were a guy, alas, I was wrong.

 

Miss M, I had a long response to your last post but because you and Shy seem to share some kind of connection (I noticed the times you've mentioned his name) I won't even bother with it. Corvidae had it right. I think the only reason you even poked your nose in this thread was either this how none of the women on this forum dare comment on a thread like this and others like it. If they do, it's very far and few between. In all honesty, they don't care because these guys don't interest them.

Or Shy asked you to, who knows, that guy seems pretty weird at times. Ultimately, I think we were addressing a different type of "nice" guy, that's the most significant thing I noticed. If you'd rather "say" you could point out my "flip-flopping" and "contradictions" but not actually do it, why bother posting at all?

 

Finally, to all you "nice" guys out there that have posted, Miss M doesn't believe you're nice at all, you just feel women are obligated to have sex with you because you're nice to them. Well, atleast those are the guys she's advising. Mind you I don't agree with this, but then again I'm just an arrogant jerk who wants to argue with no purpose.

[Caldus]

you just feel women are obligated to have sex with you because you're nice to them.

 

If someone is thinking that, then yes, I agree. They are wrong.

[Alabama]

Good, the debating is over! Yah no more long posts with text! My brain hurt from reading all that...

[Shinobie]

Ok well iono.U say that the feeling u get from what you are reading is that nice guys think they can have sex with a girl if they are nice?No thats not what a guy like me does if im put in the nice category.I have started to find sex disgusting with how many people completely detroy it.I never look at sex as the main object of a relationship.Ya and btw dont bash me about that i dont care if i havent been in a relationship this is how i personally i see how i would treat one.Most males think no sex then goodbye to you.If u love the person that bullcrap doesnt matter one bit what they want is what you should accept.None of this "o you dont give me sex then ill leave you" Its utter nonsense too me.