Nice guys do finish last!!!

[Dre_7]

Dre_7 I can work with what you've just posted. People assume I'm saying that you need to be a jerk to be successful with women, and that's not my position at all. With the exception of some very troubled women, it isn't the jerk that's attractive, it's his "confidence." I'm also taking into consideration the fact that everyone has different tastes, so there is no definitive example of what a jerk is. A jerk is many things.

So I take it you used to think that being a nice guy was the way to go?

Yes, and it didn't mean I allowed myself to be trampled on, I just didn't know women. I didn't impose my self at all, I kind of let her take the leading role to an extent. That turned out to be a big turn off for many, many women (this is the short version mind you). I had to learn to appreciate my desires to be "assertive" at times. That doesn't mean I abused women or anything of the sort, but I became comfortable with the masculine traits that are indicative of being a man. There's a reason why women like assertive guys, I'm not making this stuff up, and I'm not brainwashed by society and the media.

 

Some guys are afraid to be sexual with women, they're afraid of their own sexuality. I think that also plays a part in why some guys are consistently treated as "friends" rather than "boyfriends." I'm not saying you should be overtly sexual towards women or even sexual in terms of actively trying to get sex. Sexuality is more than intercourse, but it's very important.

And the truth is, it really doesn't matter what you are because your personality really determines the outcome of your life. In essense, be who you are, and get what you deserve... So to each his (or her) own...

Oh I agree whole heartedly.

 

Do you see anything in this post that implies you shouldn't be a nice guy?

 

I agree with you on the assertiveness part, as well as that men shouldn't be afraid of their sexuality. To me that's all part and parcel of a relationship. But my problem is when people use nice guy as a blanket term for anyone who isn't in the majority of guys chasing women like a sport. However, if you are talking about displaying masculinity as a way of attracting women..that's fine.

The problem is that some guys don't even know where to being defining masculinity and they end up idealizing the jerk syndrome.

A real man is assertive, but at the same time he is able to show love in other ways besides just sexually. He should also be a good friend to his girlfriend, and not friend as in a male girlfriend, but in the context of the relationship.

So I guess the ideal man encapsulates the assertiveness of the "jerk" and the endearing qualities of the nice guy. But then again, none of us is ideal. So we can only strive to be the best we can to maitain a quality relationship void of clinginess as well as selfishness.

[Shinobie]

I personally thought that was nicely stated dre.Dont think many could say it as well i agree.

[Dre_7]

I personally thought that was nicely stated dre.Dont think many could say it as well i agree.

 

Thanks Shinobie!

[Alabama]

I wonder how many posts this topic will reach...

[Caldus]

I wonder how many posts this topic will reach...

 

Let me perform some calculations...

 

if (topic.replyMade() == true || topic.refutationMade() == true) {
   topic.incrementPostCount();

   if (topic.getName() == "nice guys do finish last!!!") {
       topic.setStatus("reply will be made eventually every time");
   }
}

 

... infinity.

[ShySoul]

I wonder how many posts this topic will reach...

 

We've got along way to go until we get to the longest I've seen on this topic. So I hope you have a good supply of microwave popcorn ready.

 

The problem is that some guys don't even know where to being defining masculinity and they end up idealizing the jerk syndrome.

 

First, very articulate dre. A female friend of mine was saying this exact point to me. She said that most guys define their masculinity by what is not feminine (whatever that means). So they turn to sterotypes of women being weak, fragile creatures. Women are emotional and passive. Thus to be a man guys think they most be aggressive, stifle there emotions, strong and iron willed, not care about what others think as long as they look strong. In doing that so many fall into the trap of being a "jerk." That isn't even there intent and they don't even realize the reasons they are doing it. Many just have very mixed up ideas of what makes them a man and don't know any better.

 

So I guess the ideal man encapsulates the assertiveness of the "jerk" and the endearing qualities of the nice guy.

 

Is a "jerk" assertive? Or would it be better classifed along the lines of pushy?

 

With the exception of some very troubled women, it isn't the jerk that's attractive, it's his "confidence."

 

You put it into quotation marks, interesting. In doing so your basically saying its not real confidence, thats just what it is preceived to be. In reality a jerk has anything but confidence, they are pretty much the weakest and least confident people there are. Someone with real confidence wouldn't even care about putting off that aura of confidence. He would be weak when he is weak, cause a real man is able to admit his limitations. You can show confidence, real confidence, without resorting to anything that a jerk tends to be like. And there comes a time when the best show of confidence is to rely on someone else.

 

Some guys are afraid to be sexual with women, they're afraid of their own sexuality.

 

I think what would be a better way of saying what you are getting at is to be more intimate. It's about opening up and letting someone close to you, which isn't an easy thing to do. It has nothing to do with someone being nice, its about how comfortable a person is with opening themselves up to others. I don't think guys like that are afriad of their own sexuality, its that they aren't going to share that part of them unless it is really serious. When they get to that point it is with a very special girl and it is very special moments. It's more intimate then you would believe.

 

but when faced with the harsh reality of life, some wise up, and either make necessary changes or concede and not deal with it, even go into denial about it. Whatever coping strategy works for you I guess.

 

Harsh realities? Would that include: drug abuse, alcohol abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, cheating, and so much more complicated messes then I care to think about? Anyone who knows me would tell you its amazing I still believe in love, being nice, and all the stuff I do believe in. And I do because I know that there has to be something better then all the harsh realities I've seen, and the way to that is with love and the things I say.

 

Oh I'm not saying you consciously look for it, not at all. I can see why you get the support you do from women, especially a few on this forum.

 

Yes, because the women are smart.

 

seem to have a real self righteous attitude as if you understand everything, and the beliefs you hold are above other peoples.

 

Odd, guys like you say I'm self righteous. Others tell me I should stand up for myself more and voice my opinions. Can't win either way, someone will always have a problem with me. So I'll just be me and say what I want to say. All opinions are equally valid, some just make more sense then others. I don't hold mines above others, if I ever seem that way its because I am passionate about what I say or because I'm making a joke to lighten the mood.

 

By all means, say what's on your mind. I wish I could just say what's on my mind but it won't fly in this forum.

 

Go ahead. If you want pm me. Or I'll give you my email if you want. I don't mind hearing all your wild opinions.

[Miss M]

Oh I'm not saying you consciously look for it, not at all. I can see why you get the support you do from women, especially a few on this forum.

 

Yes, because the women are smart.

Ah, ShySoul, and here I was thinking that YOU are the smart one. Or maybe it's both of us... yeah, that's probably it!

And such a nice "reflection" too.

 

And what a nice concept, both male and female can be mutually smart. Yay! \

[darkblue]

Oh I'm not saying you consciously look for it, not at all. I can see why you get the support you do from women, especially a few on this forum.

 

Yes, because the women are smart.

Ah, ShySoul, and here I was thinking that YOU are the smart one. Or maybe it's both of us... yeah, that's probably it!

And such a nice "reflection" too.

 

And what a nice concept, both male and female can be mutually smart. Yay! \

 

HA!

If only.

[Miss M]

HA!

If only.

Hey Darkblue, I sometimes get hopelessly optimistic.

Nothing to be done about it either. Just is.

 

Hey, I like your new avatar too. It's so YOU.

[darkblue]

HA!

If only.

Hey Darkblue, I sometimes get hopelessly optimistic.

Nothing to be done about it either. Just is.

 

Hey, I like your new avatar too. It's so YOU.

 

Why thank you I think .

[Miss M]

Why thank you I think .

 

Yeah, it was a compliment, alright.

No worries.

[Shidoshi]

Quote:

With the exception of some very troubled women, it isn't the jerk that's attractive, it's his "confidence."

 

 

You put it into quotation marks, interesting. In doing so your basically saying its not real confidence, thats just what it is preceived to be. In reality a jerk has anything but confidence, they are pretty much the weakest and least confident people there are. Someone with real confidence wouldn't even care about putting off that aura of confidence. He would be weak when he is weak, cause a real man is able to admit his limitations. You can show confidence, real confidence, without resorting to anything that a jerk tends to be like. And there comes a time when the best show of confidence is to rely on someone else.

Interesting how I've been accused of taking quotes out of context, and here you are doing it to me. Lets not start debating what a jerk is, it will only lead to circular arguments. As I stated in the post you quoted from, a jerk is "many things." There is no list of requirements you have to meet in order to attain jerk status. Did you learn nothing from the response of the guy you so kindly complimented? Best response I've gotten so far came from Dre.

Quote:

Some guys are afraid to be sexual with women, they're afraid of their own sexuality.

 

 

I think what would be a better way of saying what you are getting at is to be more intimate. It's about opening up and letting someone close to you, which isn't an easy thing to do. It has nothing to do with someone being nice, its about how comfortable a person is with opening themselves up to others. I don't think guys like that are afriad of their own sexuality, its that they aren't going to share that part of them unless it is really serious. When they get to that point it is with a very special girl and it is very special moments. It's more intimate then you would believe.

Well, you've basically misunderstood what I meant by "sexuality." I could explain it if you'd like, but I get the feeling that I'd get the same response.

Quote:

but when faced with the harsh reality of life, some wise up, and either make necessary changes or concede and not deal with it, even go into denial about it. Whatever coping strategy works for you I guess.

 

 

 

Harsh realities? Would that include: drug abuse, alcohol abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, cheating, and so much more complicated messes then I care to think about? Anyone who knows me would tell you its amazing I still believe in love, being nice, and all the stuff I do believe in. And I do because I know that there has to be something better then all the harsh realities I've seen, and the way to that is with love and the things I say.

It seems that you're too wrapped up in yourself to understand what I mean. This is also why we never get anywhere, I have to break things down for you because you head off in all kinds of directions assuming things that aren't correct.

Quote:

Oh I'm not saying you consciously look for it, not at all. I can see why you get the support you do from women, especially a few on this forum.

 

 

 

Yes, because the women are smart.

LOL, here we go again. Have you ever considered getting a sex change? Seriously? Have you ever been unsure of your sexual preferences? If so, it could explain a lot.

Quote:

By all means, say what's on your mind. I wish I could just say what's on my mind but it won't fly in this forum.

 

 

Go ahead. If you want pm me. Or I'll give you my email if you want. I don't mind hearing all your wild opinions.

I see no reason to pm. It's much more interesting to see your replies in public so I can watch people come to your defense.

 

I don't agree with everything Dre said, but I love the fact that he understood my basic premise without me having to explain it over, and over, and over again.

 

Ahh and the lovely Miss M. She said she didn't want to "entertain" me, yet she continues to do so. I think you may have a shot with her Shy, she seems to be "warming up." You know what they say about women in their 30s.

[Alabama]

Shy Soul wrote got along way to go until we get to the longest I've seen on this topic. So I hope you have a good supply of microwave popcorn ready.

 

Sadly no popcorn...willl cookies do?

[ShySoul]

Sadly no popcorn...willl cookies do?

 

What kind of cookies? Oh ya... got milk?

 

And what a nice concept, both male and female can be mutually smart. Yay!

 

Wow, revolutionary concept. Miss M, your a woman ahead of her time. If males and females can be mutually smart, set aside there differences, and unite together in common cause for the good of everyone..... wow, the possiblities. 8)

 

Unfortunately it may take some work. But I think we've got a nice start here.

 

I think you may have a shot with her Shy, she seems to be "warming up." You know what they say about women in their 30s.

 

Darn, just when I fall in love and can't enjoy female attention to the fullest, that's when I suddenly get all the attention. That's alright, wouldn't trade my girl for anyone or anything, even if she can drive me up the wall sometimes. But that's love.

 

But the lovely Miss M is indeed wonderful. Hey Shidoshi, are you secretely harboring feelings here? Calling her lovely, constantly debating and disagreeing with her (the classic schoolyard tactic), and giving her a pretty flattering comment there (even if you probably didn't realize it)...

 

As I stated in the post you quoted from, a jerk is "many things." There is no list of requirements you have to meet in order to attain jerk status. Did you learn nothing from the response of the guy you so kindly complimented?

 

"Many things" is a non answer. It is so vague and incomplete that we can't possible get anywhere because no one knows what we are talking about. It's like answering fine when someone asks how your day was, a quick and easy response that says nothing. Sure, people can not be strickly classified as jerks, as we all have good and negative qualities in us. Hence the reason I have always said it is the characteristics that are jerk like. And if you look at the attitude and actions of the people that most would describe as jerks, you will see most of the same things showing up from person to person. And one of those things is what I mentioned, that "jerks" generally have very low confidence in themselves when it comes down to it.

 

Well, you've basically misunderstood what I meant by "sexuality." I could explain it if you'd like, but I get the feeling that I'd get the same response.

 

By all means, explain what you mean. I'm just going off of the nice guys I know, and I don't find them afraid of sexuality at all, in any way. If anything, they are probably more sexual and sensual.

 

It seems that you're too wrapped up in yourself to understand what I mean. This is also why we never get anywhere, I have to break things down for you because you head off in all kinds of directions assuming things that aren't correct.

 

That didn't address the topic. What harsh realities do you mean? You talk about harsh realities, I've lived them. And all the harsh realities I have seen have lead me to the same views I say on here, because ultimately they are what works while the things you and others say just continue the cycle of harshness you comment on. You give in assuming the world has to be harsh, I fight for something better. I know all about women going for bad boys. I also know the hurt they feel afterwards. I know how they can continue to do that even when they want desparately not to. And I also know they end up with a nice guy. I now how nice guys can be walked on. I know nice guys with low self esteem getting hurt, or sabotaging there shots at realtionships. I've encountered all kinds of people, all kinds of scenarios. And everything put together leads me to what I say, which has been supported by guys and gals alike, and by those in happy, lasting relationships. And that is simple: nice guys finish first, and they finish best.

 

Have you ever considered getting a sex change? Seriously? Have you ever been unsure of your sexual preferences? If so, it could explain a lot.

 

Your great Shidoshi. Just when I think you couldn't go lower, you do. Just because I saw that women are smart you are going to question my sexual preference and orientation? Really now, do you do that with everyone you know? Cause if your like this around your friends, I feel sorry for them. If I was being mean I would question if you were even human, giving even one thought to other people's feelings..... but I'm not going to be like that. Take the high road and all that jazz. So to answer your questions, I'm all male and I totally dig the ladies.

 

Hey, that was an interesting post Shidoshi. You brought absolutely nothing new to the table. Just about everything you wrote was about how I misunderstand what you say or it was some rude comment directed to me. I think your running out of material to help your side. Maybe I should play devil's advocate for awhile, see how well I can agree the other side. It least then the side would have some real comments and points going for it.

[Miss M]

Quote:

With the exception of some very troubled women, it isn't the jerk that's attractive, it's his "confidence."

 

 

You put it into quotation marks, interesting. In doing so your basically saying its not real confidence, thats just what it is preceived to be. In reality a jerk has anything but confidence, they are pretty much the weakest and least confident people there are. Someone with real confidence wouldn't even care about putting off that aura of confidence. He would be weak when he is weak, cause a real man is able to admit his limitations. You can show confidence, real confidence, without resorting to anything that a jerk tends to be like. And there comes a time when the best show of confidence is to rely on someone else.

Interesting how I've been accused of taking quotes out of context, and here you are doing it to me. Lets not start debating what a jerk is, it will only lead to circular arguments. As I stated in the post you quoted from, a jerk is "many things." There is no list of requirements you have to meet in order to attain jerk status. Did you learn nothing from the response of the guy you so kindly complimented? Best response I've gotten so far came from Dre.

These comments from ShySoul actually made some really good points. And this is an interesting description of a jerk, (a partial description, there are more), and also a good description of a confident person. A person who is confident is able to accept his limitations and also is able to be vulnerable. And those who lack confidence often put on a show of confidence to compensate for the lack of it. Some of them are quite fantastic performers, but there is really nothing behind the facade. Not knowing that that's what's going on is what makes reading people so confusing. So a guy who's willing to be vulnerable with a woman might be actually displaying a depth of strength.

[evilnoodle87]

nice guys finish last....but they seem to make more friends along the way, thats the way that i look at it being a nice guy myself, just hang in there dude things will be ok

[Caldus]

I'm a "middle guy" myself.

[darkblue]

I don't like to be labelled.

 

Yeah, I'm one of them...

[Alabama]

Meh, I figure if I don't find love, than I'll at least make friends, enjoy life, and succeed at my career.

[Caldus]

Meh, I figure if I don't find love, than I'll at least make friends, enjoy life, and succeed at my career.

 

Well see you know you want someone though. So start taking steps now to figure out what's wrong with the way you approach girls (or if you're shy). Combine your attitude with continously working on improving your social skills (especially with other girls). And don't look for love. Not the best way to look for it (ironic huh?).

[Alabama]

Aah, but not everything is fixable in reality. I've accepted the way things are and I plan to carry on in life. I am quiet, shy, and nice. If I have to change, then screw it. I shouldn't have to change who I am to find it.

[Caldus]

Aah, but not everything is fixable in reality. I've accepted the way things are and I plan to carry on in life. I am quiet, shy, and nice. If I have to change, then screw it. I shouldn't have to change who I am to find it.

 

It doesn't mean you have to change your personality but rather your actions. If doing the same thing over and over doesn't produce different results, wouldn't you want to at least try out something else?

[Alabama]

After what I've been through (a lot of mental pain), not really. I'm through with worrying about it. I figure I would rather pursue a successful career in life, than worrying about finding love. I have loved every minute of it. I wouldn't change the path I'm on now. I love the freedom of being single and I'm learning to enjoy reality and not escape from it. So, I'm happy thanks. Maybe other people find love, but I seek something else. I've found my happiness and I wouldn't change it for the world. Thanks anyway.

[Miss M]

Maybe other people find love, but I seek something else.

So Alabama, does this mean you'll be changing your signature...

All you really need is love...

It was really strange to read your post, and then read your sig at the end.

[corvidae]

There are many different types of love.