I woke up to this text earlier, things I want to say, but haven't replied...

[ShySoul]

On 1/17/2024 at 4:32 AM, Cynder said:

But I wonder how much of that trauma actually comes from that incident and how much is left over from childhood.  Because I had really similar things happen to me as a kid.

The culumutive effect of all these traumas is a killer. You can never fully resolve anything or heal because something else bad happens. And each event just reinforces the negative thoughts in your head until you are just waiting for something else to go wrong. I don't blame you for having a negative view of people. I get pretty down on humanity myself at times. 

My friend has a similar relationship with her mother. Nothing she did was ever good enough. She would get blamed for crazy things she never did. I've seen how much that's carried over into her everyday life even decades later. It's made her very sensitive to criticism, even to the point she anticipates it from people. And she's also had to deal with people treating her pretty poorly. But she's still the best person I know. I'm actually amazed by how strong she is and what a good person she is, caring for others. For what it's worth, I think you're remarkably strong as well. You're smart, mature, and caring despite all you've endured. You're fair and have a clear understanding of people. Really hoping things get better eventually. Just keep focusing on you.

[Cynder]

Since I posted this, him and I have been talking.  The conversations have been friendly.  It isn't non stop texting, either.  We didn't even text continuously all day every day when we were dating.   But we've had some good conversations.  He is getting ready for a pretty big festival in February.  And I am getting ready for my Gallery show next month.  This is the first time I've ever been a featured artist at a gallery, so it's a pretty big deal for me.  So we've been talking about that stuff.  

When we were friends, before we ever dated, sometimes I jokingly called him my beta reader.  He loves to read and he reads fast.  I used to send him my short stories a lot.  And he was one of the few people who would read them and give me real feedback.  A lot of people read my stuff and then just say, "I liked it."  Nothing wrong with that, but I love it when people really tell me what they think, especially when they tell me the things they didn't like, etc.  I'm kind of a sadist when it comes to my writing.  I love criticism. 

But anyway, he read a lot of the novel I'm working on when we were still together.  Since we broke up I've written a lot more of it.  And so I sent him what he hasn't read yet.  After an hour or so of texting about the novel, I mean, he was saying stuff like, "Yea, at the end of this chapter maybe you could add a short scene where this happens, because it would be a nice smooth transition into the next chapter," etc. 

Well, once he got done with the ten or so chapters I sent him yesterday, he told me "I'm trying so hard to be a better version of myself."  And then he said, "I really want to tell you something."  And what followed was the this text.  I'm sorry if the f-bombs bother anyone.  He sent a few more long ones after that said reading the chapters I sent was the reason for this.  The chapters he read are (somewhat) relationship-centric.  My novel is not a love story by any means, but these few chapters dealt with love.  And he was drawing all these parallels between my characters and us.  None of those parallels were intentional though.  Like, there's a scene where they are walking in the woods together and taking pictures.  Well, on one of our first dates we went to the wetlands near my house and walked some of the trails there.  Those are the kinds of things he's putting together. 

But long story short he told me that reading those chapters made him really emotional because he feels os much of what my male character is feeling for the girl in the book, but for me. 

And I told him I processed a lot of what we went through by writing.  Both fiction and journaling.  I have another whole novel I cranked out in under a month.  And it's entirely inspired by something he went through as a child. 

But, I had to cut this off.  I told him I can't have this conversation right now, not to be mean, but I just wasn't mentally prepared for it.  And I was also at work, we were about to get our morning rush.  (I work overnight at a 24 hour health club. My boss doesn't care about texting at work as long as my work is getting done, etc.)  But I didn't want to be having that talk while dealing with all the soccer moms coming in to tan before heading off to Starbucks and PTA meetings, lol

I told him we will talk about things when the time is right. 

But I also know, the time might never be right. 

But also, the message itself is kind of confusing.  He's talking like he got scared of how serious his feelings were, etc.  But his mental health issues are why we ended it.  His paranoia and loose grip on reality is what killed us.  At least that's how I saw it. 

I just wanted to give an update and see if anyone had anything to say. 

[catfeeder]

I can only speak for myself. I'm not someone who's willing to talk 'around' or 'past' my issues with a person. I may love and miss them dearly, but unless and until we constructively deal with THE THING that caused our parting, I'm not interested in sentimental smoke and mirrors.

Nobody can convince me that we're so magical together if we can't even speak with one another about the things that matter.

[Batya33]

14 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

I can only speak for myself. I'm not someone who's willing to talk 'around' or 'past' my issues with a person. I may love and miss them dearly, but unless and until we constructively deal with THE THING that caused our parting, I'm not interested in sentimental smoke and mirrors.

Nobody can convince me that we're so magical together if we can't even speak with one another about the things that matter.

Also I know you were friends in the past and enjoy those memories.  And I'd accept that it's highly unlikely you can be just friends again in any healthful way. Maybe in years from now but I'd move on from that or any reliance on being friends again.

[catfeeder]

15 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Also I know you were friends in the past and enjoy those memories.  And I'd accept that it's highly unlikely you can be just friends again in any healthful way. Maybe in years from now but I'd move on from that or any reliance on being friends again.

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm actually thinking more of friendships. I guess because in my own experience, I've been more likely to reunite with a friend than a lover. And there hasn't always been an issue to reconcile, but where there was, that's where I want to go--no tiptoeing, no flattery, no nuthin'.

This doesn't mean that I'm confrontational. I always like to remind people around there that 'confront' is a strong word. But to me there is a clear difference between productive conversation versus fluff. I don't do fluff. 

[Cynder]

4 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I can only speak for myself. I'm not someone who's willing to talk 'around' or 'past' my issues with a person. I may love and miss them dearly, but unless and until we constructively deal with THE THING that caused our parting, I'm not interested in sentimental smoke and mirrors.

Nobody can convince me that we're so magical together if we can't even speak with one another about the things that matter.

I don't know if this changes anything, but it's been me stopping that from happening.  Twice now, he's tried to go there and I'm the one that tells him no.  Like yesterday it really was because I was working. 

We did have one really serious conversation about his sister and that one left me really drained.  I really do want to talk about the actual thing that broke us up, eventually.  And by that I mean what he accused me of.  I'm just scared to talk about it. I know it probably doesn't make sense.  But it's almost like I don't want to know what really happened.  Like if he tells me, "Oh she just went to a friend's house for a couple days." That's something I will ruminate on a lot.  Like, ok, this 20 year old adult left and went to see a friend, and so much drama happened over that? 

I just know how my mind works. 

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

I don't know if this changes anything, but it's been me stopping that from happening.  Twice now, he's tried to go there and I'm the one that tells him no.  Like yesterday it really was because I was working. 

We did have one really serious conversation about his sister and that one left me really drained.  I really do want to talk about the actual thing that broke us up, eventually.  And by that I mean what he accused me of.  I'm just scared to talk about it. I know it probably doesn't make sense.  But it's almost like I don't want to know what really happened.  Like if he tells me, "Oh she just went to a friend's house for a couple days." That's something I will ruminate on a lot.  Like, ok, this 20 year old adult left and went to see a friend, and so much drama happened over that? 

I just know how my mind works. 

I get it. I've also been with you while you ripped up your stomach lining 'around' direct communication, trying to side-step being the only person left in D's life that he did not act out against. It just didn't work. That doesn't mean your effort wasn't valiant or well intended, it just means that the lesson I'd take from this is, avoidance was never your friend--or his. So don't do that again.

What does it mean to learn something important from an experience? What do you believe you are gaining from all this recent fluff versus what you'd gain from telling him that you want to know his thought process during the exact time he suddenly turned accusatory on you about the niece?

From there, there's nothing necessary to say. Simply hear him out. If you want help to consider what he says, simply ask. If you want a placeholder response to him while you process this, just say, "Thanks for being honest with me. I need to think about this." Then go away for a while.

Might he tell you something that you don't know how to deal with? Sure. But you already know that you're dealing with his mental illness, not rational thinking. And it's from that perspective that you can apply different levels of processing--one that internalizes how a trusted loved one could turn on you that way, which, you've already got on your plate, anyway.

Another lens views the incident through loving someone with a mental illness, and therefore you don't have any hard core 'shoulds' about factoring that unfortunate fact into your consideration--it can be elastic. Another lens views one or more cost/benefit analyses of risks in dealing with someone who can turn on you on a dime--that's tricky, but you've already got that one to consider now, anyway. Another lens proposes potential questions to determine how he views that mindset today, and maybe even attempts to learn HIS views of his likelihood of him falling back into that place from his current position.

So? While none of this is easy, it informs your choices.

I don't see a point in engaging with the man without raising this conversation, not only for your own information, but also to deter D from believing that he can manipulate you with sentimentality without ever answering for THE THING that got you both to this place.

(((Big HUG))) and not trying to pick on you, Cat.

[Cynder]

35 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

I get it. I've also been with you while you ripped up your stomach lining 'around' direct communication, trying to side-step being the only person left in D's life that he did not act out against. It just didn't work. That doesn't mean your effort wasn't valiant or well intended, it just means that the lesson I'd take from this is, avoidance was never your friend--or his. So don't do that again.

What does it mean to learn something important from an experience? What do you believe you are gaining from all this recent fluff versus what you'd gain from telling him that you want to know his thought process during the exact time he suddenly turned accusatory on you about the niece?

From there, there's nothing necessary to say. Simply hear him out. If you want help to consider what he says, simply ask. If you want a placeholder response to him while you process this, just say, "Thanks for being honest with me. I need to think about this." Then go away for a while.

Might he tell you something that you don't know how to deal with? Sure. But you already know that you're dealing with his mental illness, not rational thinking. And it's from that perspective that you can apply different levels of processing--one that internalizes how a trusted loved one could turn on you that way, which, you've already got on your plate, anyway.

Another lens views the incident through loving someone with a mental illness, and therefore you don't have any hard core 'shoulds' about factoring that unfortunate fact into your consideration--it can be elastic. Another lens views one or more cost/benefit analyses of risks in dealing with someone who can turn on you on a dime--that's trick, but you've already got that one to consider now, anyway. Another lens proposes potential questions to determine how he views that mindset today, and maybe even attempts to learn HIS views of his likelihood of him falling back into that place from his current position.

So? While none of this is easy, it informs your choices.

I don't see a point in engaging with the man without raising this conversation, not only for your own information, but also to deter D from believing that he can manipulate you with sentimentality without ever answering for THE THING that got you both to this place.

(((Big HUG))) and not trying to pick on you, Cat.

I know you're not trying to pick on me. 

I know this conversation has to happen at some point.  I just wasn't going there at work.  I also think it would be better face to face, or at least over the phone. 

He knows he screwed up.  If I bring it up in texts he might just not answer me. 

I also know there's a good chance he will say he doesn't remember.  Which, if he really was having a psychotic episode like I've always suspected, he might not actually remember.  He won't deny that it happened.  (He can't really deny it, I have screenshots.) But he might not remember what he was actually thinking when it happened, if that makes sense. 

In our recent conversations he has used the phrase, "The way it ended." a lot when telling me how bad he feels.  So, I think he's afraid on some level to bring it up, too. 

I'm not saying either of us should be avoiding it.  It needs to come up at some point.  There's a lot of things I want to ask him. 

One thing I keep thinking about, and this isn't just with him but with so many people...  Why does everyone always feel so bad after the fact?  So many times in my life, someone who really did me wrong tells me how awful they feel, months or years later.  Am I the only person who thinks before they act?  My ex husband and the (mow former) friend of mine he had an affair with felt so bad when they got caught.  Ok... you guys both feel bad now that I know.  But did neither of you think about this before you did it? 

My Mom feels awful now about the way she treated me when I was a kid.  Ok, but her feeling bad now doesn't fix it.  She couldn't stop to think, "Hey, maybe I shouldn't be bullying and beating up on a little girl? What kind of damage is this going to do to her?" 

I did say something about that to him, recently.  I said it's been a pattern all my life.  People treat me like crap and then they come back later to tell me how bad they feel.  Why can't people think about their actions before they do them?  And in his case, if he really was psychotic that night, he has a reason for not thinking about it.  But that still doesn't make it go away. 

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

... If I bring it up in texts he might just not answer me. 

If he would do that, what would it tell you about investing in him now?

This is exactly why I'm challenging you to avoid creating another eggshell walk 'around' catering to him.

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I also know there's a good chance he will say he doesn't remember. 

Which would logically prompt a response that questions how he can expect you to trust that he won't behave in ways that he doesn't remember again?

Look, this is on HIM to regain YOUR trust. Don't do yourself the disservice of pre-determining excuses as to why he can't or won't do that.

Either give him the fair opportunity, or tell him that you're not ready to deal with him right now. But trying to split this down the middle is exactly what got you hurt last time. Don't do that again. Looking out for yourself is NOT a hostile act.

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In our recent conversations he has used the phrase, "The way it ended." a lot when telling me how bad he feels.  So, I think he's afraid on some level to bring it up, too. 

Yep, I recall discussing that as the passive voice, which was only fitting, since that same day you'd just called out how annoyingly useless that is.

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I'm not saying either of us should be avoiding it.  It needs to come up at some point.  There's a lot of things I want to ask him. 

Good. Consider it the opportunity he's giving you that you've been waiting for, and don't squander it in favor of being too timid and sentimental to look out for yourself. That's not helpful to HIM to believe that about you.

Either you're willing to require the kind of respect that could prompt him to do the work he needs, or you toss that out the window so he can feel comfy blowing smoke up your butt until he's ready to act out again--with nothing to lose but another 'fan'.

You're setting up a foundation here, and if you want to play the nice audience, you're setting yourself up to pay another price for that. I'd rather challenge a loved one to stand up and walk his talk or stop talking.

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 ... I said it's been a pattern all my life.  People treat me like crap and then they come back later to tell me how bad they feel.  Why can't people think about their actions before they do them?  And in his case, if he really was psychotic that night, he has a reason for not thinking about it.  But that still doesn't make it go away. 

Fine. You've set him up to expect to be accountable. Next step? Ask him to be accountable. You can be kind about it, but be firm. You want to know what he was thinking, and more importantly, you want to know how he can assure both you and himself that he owns the kind of control today that would prevent him from doing that again.

Chances are, he can't guarantee that. So there's your opening to discuss the kind of help he pursued to get sober, and whether he's willing to accept that kind of help again today.

Does this need to be discussed in rapid succession? No. But it's the place where honesty leads.

Anything less just equates to a lack of sobriety playing with a stick in a mud puddle. It means zero. You've worked with addicts, you know the place of zero. Don't play around there. You deserve better, honey.

[itsallgrand]

Catfeeder  is amazing and her responses are so insightful. Wow.

My feeling towards how and what he's been communicating with you right now is honestly "yeah, he doesn't get it yet. Not ready to be fully honest." And I don't know him. That's just my gut reaction to this. He dancing around taking full accountability. 

If he has had mental health episodes where he is not in full control, does he have periods of lucidity and self awareness of his mental health status to be factual about that? To be able to gage where his mental health is at and take appropriate measures? 

I have to be honest. I think you are playing with fire currently. He just hasn't shown you any reason to trust him again. And this is someone who was involved in some very serious situation. 

 

[Cynder]

I know this thread is old news now.  It's been 6 months since this relationship ended.  And I feel like in the last 6 months I've done a lot of reflecting, etc.  But I am also someone who is always reflecting.  Since I had a NDE almost 8 years ago, I've done so much work on myself and I've turned my life around in so many ways. 

I was really sick for a while at the end of 2023.  I had a really bad sinus infection that wouldn't go away, and then I got Covid on top of that, etc.  And the whole time I was sick and miserable, I wished he was here with me. 

This relationship is the one that I've had a really hard time letting go of.  In the past, I was usually the dumper.  I've only ever been broken up with twice.  This was my only mutual breakup, ever.  And since mental illness played such a huge part in it, I couldn't just blame him for everything either.  I know when a relationship ends it's always both people's fault to a degree.  But other factors like health, etc can end a relationship too.  Me being disabled has caused problems in almost every relationship I've been in.  And it's definitely not my fault that I'm disabled.  I'm just using that as an example, but he is the only one who never had a problem with my disability.  My business has also caused problems in all my relationships, except for this one.  I've given art as gifts in past relationships (not every relationship, but a few of my exes got paintings that they didn't appreciate.  One person I dated for 2 years got a painting for Christmas, he opened it at my house and never even took it home with him.  I still have it, lol.  But when my recent ex got a painting, he teared up, and hung it up in his living room immediately.  And it's still there.  So, there are things that set him apart from everyone else.  It's more than this, these are just examples off the top of my head. 

We talk every day now, as friends.  He is still my number one beta reader.  He's the only person who has actually read my entire novel and given honest feedback. 

Last night we were talking, and he was about to go to sleep.  And he sent me a text that said, "I'm scared to tell you this because of the possible repercussions, but I still love you.  Well, I'm off to bed.  Goodnight," 

I said, "Sweet dreams.  And I know you do." 

I know my response could have been warmer.  I honestly was just trying to answer him in a hurry because I was in the middle of doing several things at once.  But I knew he felt that way.  It was obvious. 

And the thing is, I still love him too.  This situation is so frustrating.  Two people who click so well and who love each other but are too messed up to be together.  I think we are both better off single, honestly. 

So, no we aren't back together.  But I feel like in a perfect would we would be.  And this whole situation has me feeling so many ways.  Loving someone and knowing they love you too is a good feeling.  But it also sucks knowing we can't really be together, at least not now or probably any time soon. 

If anyone has any thoughts feel free to share.  I just wanted to get this out.  I could say more but I have to leave for work. 

[ShySoul]

16 minutes ago, Cynder said:

Loving someone and knowing they love you too is a good feeling.  But it also sucks knowing we can't really be together, at least not now or probably any time soon. 

It is somehow the most uplifting, joyous feeling while also being the most heartbreaking, soul-crushing feeling. It also feels like the cruelest joke imaginable. Yes, the universe will decide you deserve to have a glimpse of everything you've dreamed of but that you don't deserve it enough to actually get it. Instead it is forever tangling just out of reach. Which level of Dante's Divine Comedy is this? Cause it sure feels like hell.

Only thing I know (or at least choose to believe) is that things work out for the best. If we are supposed to be with this person, then somehow, someway, we'll find our ways back to each other when the time is right. In the meantime, you just have to keep pushing forward. If you've found a way to keep in touch and be friends, enjoy that friendship for what it is. I know I'd rather have that person in my life as just a friend, then not at all. And he does sound good for you in so many ways. Hopefully one day things will get to the point where it can be more.

[Cynder]

5 hours ago, ShySoul said:

It is somehow the most uplifting, joyous feeling while also being the most heartbreaking, soul-crushing feeling. It also feels like the cruelest joke imaginable. Yes, the universe will decide you deserve to have a glimpse of everything you've dreamed of but that you don't deserve it enough to actually get it. Instead it is forever tangling just out of reach. Which level of Dante's Divine Comedy is this? Cause it sure feels like hell.

Only thing I know (or at least choose to believe) is that things work out for the best. If we are supposed to be with this person, then somehow, someway, we'll find our ways back to each other when the time is right. In the meantime, you just have to keep pushing forward. If you've found a way to keep in touch and be friends, enjoy that friendship for what it is. I know I'd rather have that person in my life as just a friend, then not at all. And he does sound good for you in so many ways. Hopefully one day things will get to the point where it can be more.

This sums it all up so well.  It does feel like the Universe teased me.  But at the same time, I know what is meant to happen will happen.  This is obviously where we are supposed to be right now.  Everything fits where it's supposed to fit like a puzzle.  But even knowing that on a cosmic level doesn't make it easier on a human level (if that makes sense.) I know there's more to life than being in a relationship and I'm happy being single.  But at the same time, he brought out all the best parts of me.  People who have known me for decades said they never saw me so happy.  

My roommate and I were talking the other night and during that conversation he (my ex) texted me and my roommate told me as soon as I looked at my phone and saw it was him my face lit up.  And some of our mutual friends who have known him for a long time even told me they had never seen him so happy that when we were together. 

His sister played a big part in our breakup.  And she's out of the picture now.  But she's not dead.  She could always come back into the picture.  

[Batya33]

You sound self aware of what your friendship is and isn't.  And if the "sister" could cause a breakup (on his end) then -or mostly - that's very concerning since it shows how influenced he chooses to be by another person whether a relative or not or he calls them a relative - if there were a next time it might not be his sister - could be someone else in that role -from his stance.  Love isn't enough for sure.  

 

[Cynder]

10 hours ago, Batya33 said:

You sound self aware of what your friendship is and isn't.  And if the "sister" could cause a breakup (on his end) then -or mostly - that's very concerning since it shows how influenced he chooses to be by another person whether a relative or not or he calls them a relative - if there were a next time it might not be his sister - could be someone else in that role -from his stance.  Love isn't enough for sure.  

 

Yea, I agree.  He's made it so obvious he wants me back.  But right now I wouldn't even consider it for that reason.  This time it was his sister.  But it could be anyone else next time. 

We've tried to talk about the situation with his sister, and he tells me she was manipulating him.  Ok, that's obvious.  But he doesn't seem very interested in figuring out why he was so easily manipulated.  I mean, I saw through her from the beginning.  I tried to get along with her because I'm clearly a bad judge of character and I figured I was just being paranoid. 

She caused so many problems between him and his husband, too.  And his marriage is about to end.  He might not realize that and it's not my place to tell him.  But his husband told a good mutual friend of ours that he's getting all his ducks in a row and planning to leave.  Right now they are both on a lease together, and he wants to leave as soon as the lease is up. 

Anyway, I have to leave.  Got plans with my ice cream buddy. 

 

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

But he doesn't seem very interested in figuring out why he was so easily manipulated. 

Related to why he is happy to tell himself and others she is his sister -it's easier to avoid reality, tell yourself stories about relationships that aren't true - and for him perhaps related to his mental health issues.  JMHO.

 

Enjoy your ice cream!!

[Cynder]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Related to why he is happy to tell himself and others she is his sister -it's easier to avoid reality, tell yourself stories about relationships that aren't true - and for him perhaps related to his mental health issues.  JMHO.

 

Enjoy your ice cream!!

Right.  I mean, I have a few really good friends who I've been friends with since high school, and I think of them like siblings.  Like, if something would happen to one of them it would feel like the death of a family member, etc.  But I don't tell everyone they are my siblings. I don't introduce them as my brothers/sisters.  

 

[Batya33]

9 hours ago, Cynder said:

Right.  I mean, I have a few really good friends who I've been friends with since high school, and I think of them like siblings.  Like, if something would happen to one of them it would feel like the death of a family member, etc.  But I don't tell everyone they are my siblings. I don't introduce them as my brothers/sisters.  

 

Yes -same exact.  Big difference IMO. Or referring to godparents as "Uncle/Aunt" - which is different as well.  

[Cynder]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

Yes -same exact.  Big difference IMO. Or referring to godparents as "Uncle/Aunt" - which is different as well.  

He told me recently that she is dead to him.  And the fact that it took that much for him to cut her out of his life is concerning, too.  And I know I'm no one to talk.  I've kept toxic people around for way too long in the past because I thought that was just the way everyone is.  It took a lot for me to cut someone off.  But no one ever caused the level of destruction on my life that she caused for him.  

He has told me more than once how much he regrets letting her ruin everything.  Because she ruined his relationship with his son, too.  She played the two of them off each other to the point where his son wants nothing to do with him now.  And I'm not saying he had no part in it at all.  He is ultimately responsible for his own actions.  But she definitely influenced the situation and caused a lot of conflict between him and his son. 

She started trying that with me, too.  But I knew what she was doing and didn't give her the reaction she wanted.  I still have no idea how she got him to believe I had something to do with his niece running away. I have my suspicions that she faked some messages from me too about something else.  Because he swears he saw messages from me to his sister that said something I know for a fact I never said. 

The whole subject is so sore for both of us right now that we haven't even had a real conversation about it.  There have been two attempts one was pretty much him bringing it up, and then me completely unloading on him about it while he apologized over and over and over until I told him I was done talking about it and it wasn't up for discussion.  (Not healthy, I know.  But this conversation also started up when I was going to bed, and I was dead tired.)  And the other attempt was basically both of us testing the waters, seeing how much we could handle talking about it without getting upset and then dropping it. 

I know it sounds dramatic, but what happened the night we broke up was a little traumatic for me.  Just to have someone lobbing all these accusations at me out of nowhere like that.  And then to have her start messaging me telling me what a POS I am and that I should do the world a favor and kill myself...  And this is all over nothing. They are both convinced that I helped this girl run away and that I'm now hiding her at my house.  So I'm sitting here wondering if the cops are about to come knocking at my door and want to search the place, etc. It brought back bad memories of being a kid and being accused of things I had nothing to do with, and nothing I said made a difference.  The whole thing was scary. 

Anyway... this was way more than I was planning on saying when I first started typing this. 

[rainbowsandroses]

Hello @CynderI just had a chance to read this thread, you asked for our thoughts and here are mine FWIW.

And they come from a place of experience as I've been where you are, survived it with my mental health in tact and learned a tremendous amount from it. 

Firstly, I see his behavior as being highly manipulative including the text messages you uploaded. I do NOT find them genuine at all, not one single bit.  They actually caused me to cringe, I'm sorry.  A total mind f*ck.

The why doesn't matter - his poor mental health, fear, anxiety, his toxic family - it does NOT matter, it's irrelevant. 

He's a manipulator and a user that's all the information you need.  

I'm sorry to say this but all the ruminating and analysis you've been doing is obsessive imo and it's keeping you STUCK.  Preventing you from seeing him and this situation realistically, taking stock of your life and yourself and moving on. 

You are not co-stars in a romantic movie drama, this is real life.  And you are as much to blame as he is as I think a part of you loves and needs the drama of it - like two lost souls who want to be together but the Universe is not allowing them to.  That is NOT reality

I think when you finally decide to move away from this toxicity and away from the ruminating and obsession, you will agree and see his behavior is NOT borne out of love or wanting to be with you - sorry but this is NOT love, not even close. 

It's flat out manipulation for his own selfish purposes (i.e ego gratification, self-loathing who knows), it's gaslighting in a way as it IS keeping you stuck in this toxic drama and obsession.  It's utterly crazy making. 

IF he were sincere, he would be seeking professional help for whatever his so-called "issues" are and working his way towards you (in a healthy way) versus sending ambiguous text messages, engaging in protracted conversations that leave you nowhere but more confused and frustrated.

Please move away from this person, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually.  And work with your therapist to determine why you are allowing yourself to remain in this mess. 

If this were me and has been me, I'd block him from allowing him any access to you and sending any more of his ridiculously manipulative text messages.

Essentially pulling you in, then tossing you out.  Come close, go away.  I want you/I love you, but can't be with you, I'm a coward, etc, ugh!  All sugar-coated in flowery language for the purpose of tugging at your heartstrings and keeping you STUCK.  

Wow, he's good I'll give him that.  Too bad it's all a total mind f*ck.

I realize relationships and the world doesn't operate in blacks and whites but I can see this so very clearly from the outside looking in.  And it doesn't look good, not by a long shot.

At least it's how I see it anyway.

Take care, be happy.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cynder]

7 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Hello @CynderI just had a chance to read this thread, you asked for our thoughts and here are mine FWIW.

And they come from a place of experience as I've been where you are, survived it with my mental health in tact and learned a tremendous amount from it. 

Firstly, I see his behavior as being highly manipulative including the text messages you uploaded. I do NOT find them genuine at all, not one single bit.  They actually caused me to cringe, I'm sorry.  A total mind f*ck.

The why doesn't matter - his poor mental health, fear, anxiety, his toxic family - it does NOT matter, it's irrelevant. 

He's a manipulator and a user that's all the information you need.  

I'm sorry to say this but all the ruminating and analysis you've been doing is obsessive imo and it's keeping you STUCK.  Preventing you from seeing him and this situation realistically, taking stock of your life and yourself and moving on. 

You are not co-stars in a romantic movie drama, this is real life.  And you are as much to blame as he is as I think a part of you loves and needs the drama of it - like two lost souls who want to be together but the Universe is not allowing them to.  That is NOT reality

I think when you finally decide to move away from this toxicity and away from the ruminating and obsession, you will agree and see his behavior is NOT borne out of love or wanting to be with you - sorry but this is NOT love, not even close. 

It's flat out manipulation for his own selfish purposes (i.e ego gratification, self-loathing who knows), it's gaslighting in a way as it IS keeping you stuck in this toxic drama and obsession.  It's utterly crazy making. 

IF he were sincere, he would be seeking professional help for whatever his so-called "issues" are and working his way towards you (in a healthy way) versus sending ambiguous text messages, engaging in protracted conversations that leave you nowhere but more confused and frustrated.

Please move away from this person, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually.  And work with your therapist to determine why you are allowing yourself to remain in this mess. 

If this were me and has been me, I'd block him from allowing him any access to you and sending any more of his ridiculously manipulative text messages.

Essentially pulling you in, then tossing you out.  Come close, go away.  I want you/I love you, but can't be with you, I'm a coward, etc, ugh!  All sugar-coated in flowery language for the purpose of tugging at your heartstrings and keeping you STUCK.  

Wow, he's good I'll give him that.  Too bad it's all a total mind f*ck.

I realize relationships and the world doesn't operate in blacks and whites but I can see this so very clearly from the outside looking in.  And it doesn't look good, not by a long shot.

At least it's how I see it anyway.

Take care, be happy.

 

 

 

 

 

After all the things I've seen and experienced, I don't trust anyone anymore.  Even now, this friendship I have with him is at arm's reach, at least on my end.  The other night when he told me he still loves me I literally said, "Sweet dreams.  And I know you do."  And I left it that.  I didn't say I love you too, even though that's how I feel.  Because my wall is high. 

I'm working at a festival this weekend.  He asked me which one/where.  I didn't tell him because I don't want him showing up. 

He hasn't spoken to his family in over 20 years.  Family as in parents and siblings.  They are all still in Germany, where he grew up, and we are in the US.  So, when you say his toxic family, you mean his pretend sister, who isn't related to him.  He cut ties with her in October.  But yea, I agree.  That was a really toxic dynamic. 

I'm curious why you think he's a user.  I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely asking, because I don't see that.  He hasn't gotten anything out of me that users normally get from people.  People use others for money.material things and sex mainly.  I'm too broke to give him any money and he's asexual.  I suppose he could be using people for validation. 

I don't see this as something to blame anyone for.  It isn't about blaming him or blaming me or blaming both of us.  We are two people who were friends, we became more than friends.  We broke up.  Now we are back to being friends, but there are still feelings there.  That is just a human experience.  It isn't about who's to blame. 

He is actually seeking professional help.  He's in therapy.  He is trying really hard to fix things with his son and with me.  I really hope none of this comes off like I'm arguing because I don't disagree with everything you said.  I am just keeping the facts straight (A lot of people here don't like that and are quick to call anyone defensive when they point out facts in a situation.)  I have no plans of going back to him.  I really would rather have him as a friend than an enemy, or as nothing at all.  But I'm sticking to my boundaries.  A couple weeks ago he wanted to get together.  I told him no because I'm not ready for that.  I keep our conversations friendly and don't play into it when he starts talking about certain things.  Today he sent me an essay he wrote for a project he's working on and asked me what I thought.  I told him.  He reads my writing on a regular basis and gives me feedback.  He also took two of the skunks to the vet today for shots, so we talked about that. 

I wouldn't say he is pulling me in and then tossing me aside, either.  When we broke up we didn't talk for four months.  We started talking around NYE and have been talking ever since.  When he was banned from a festival and was really upset about it, he told me he needed to isolate for a little while and wasn't going to be social.  And we didn't talk for like a week and a half.  But he also told me he was isolating.  So I don't see that as pulling someone in and tossing them aside.  He never said "I love you but can't be with you."  He wants to be with me.  It's me that isn't letting that happen.   

I really hope this reply doesn't get me in trouble or piss anyone off.  I'm just replying to what was said.  And as stated before, I don't disagree with everything you said. 

[Batya33]

Would you consider the altnerstive but equally human experience of two people who love/care about each other but spending this sort of time together is far too risky to the emotional well being of one or both people ? It’s equally human to make a different choice.  Feelings can but don’t have to lead to specific actions especially if the risks are too high to take a certain action.  I just wouldn’t dismiss it as - what we’re doing  is a typical human experience. Because it seems not to take into account choice of what and how and if to experience. If my former close but toxic friend contacted me now I still don’t think I’d give it another shot even though our falling out was in 2007. I miss her. And I have to take care of me. Obviously that is just me. Not right or wrong. Just questioning your not seeming to take your choice into account. 

[Cynder]

10 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Would you consider the altnerstive but equally human experience of two people who love/care about each other but spending this sort of time together is far too risky to the emotional well being of one or both people ? It’s equally human to make a different choice.  Feelings can but don’t have to lead to specific actions especially if the risks are too high to take a certain action.  I just wouldn’t dismiss it as - what we’re doing  is a typical human experience. Because it seems not to take into account choice of what and how and if to experience. If my former close but toxic friend contacted me now I still don’t think I’d give it another shot even though our falling out was in 2007. I miss her. And I have to take care of me. Obviously that is just me. Not right or wrong. Just questioning your not seeming to take your choice into account. 

The human experience comment was in response to someone saying I'm just as much to blame here.  I don't see blame as a factor.  Two people broke up and then started talking again four months later... something that happens all the time.  So why is blame being discussed?  Yes, we both made the choice to start talking again.  But I don't see it as both of us  being to blame for anything.  Blame is to assign responsibility for a fault or wrongdoing.  I don't think either of us have done anything wrong in this situation.  So there's no blame.  Just my opinion. 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Cynder said:

'm curious why you think he's a user.  I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely asking, because I don't see that.  He hasn't gotten anything out of me that users normally get from people.  People use others for money.material things and sex mainly.  I'm too broke to give him any money and he's asexual.  I suppose he could be using people for validation. 

Yes validation and ego gratification.  Or he simply gets his rocks off for no reason other than he enjoys messing with you, keeping you dangling and hooked on him ... there are people like this in this world, he may be one such person or he may not be, but none of this is good and positive imo.

I just don't see his behavior as genuine or honest or a true reflection of a man who actually cares about you.  I mean his message (paraphrasing):

"I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I tore away at you, the few pieces you have left.  I'm a coward, when I see you I fall more and more deeper, I ran away, I f*cking regret it."

What is that?  Are these the words of a man who truly cares about a woman?  They're a total mind f*ck!   

I dunno maybe he IS a coward, if he is, he's weak.    Is that the kind of man you want in your life long term?  A coward?  A weakling?  A man who runs away from.... whatever?

I know it's difficult for you to see this clearly because you're in love with him, or believe you are, and as the saying goes, love is blind.

In any event, you seem to believe he cares and perhaps even loves you and reading your responses, it appears there is not much anyone can say to convince you otherwise.

So all there is to do is play this out, let chips fall where they may, and if in the end, you get your heart broken, pick up the pieces and deal with it as best you can.

Some of the biggest lessons we learn in life are learned by making mistakes, I truly believe that.  Experience is the BEST teacher.

I just read this:

40 minutes ago, Cynder said:

Two people broke up and then started talking again four months later... something that happens all the time.  So why is blame being discussed?  Yes, we both made the choice to start talking again.  But I don't see it as both of us  being to blame for anything.  Blame is to assign responsibility for a fault or wrongdoing. 

Blame was the wrong word on my part.  I meant responsibility.  Responsibility for what happens to you in life at any given moment.   It's about making the best choices for yourself.

Are you happy?  I don't know, I am simply asking.  You don't seem to be, you seem confused and frustrated, hence this thread.

However, if you are happy, then carry on.  If not, consider making a different choice like walking away and eventually finding a man who's desirous and capable of giving you what you need in a healthy way.  

I truly do wish you all the best @Cynderand I apologize if my posts come off as too harsh.

Good luck. 

 

 

 

[Cynder]

27 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Yes validation and ego gratification.  Or he simply gets his rocks off for no reason other than he enjoys messing with you... there are people like this in this world, he may be one such person or he may not be, but none of this is good and positive imo.

I just don't see his behavior as genuine or honest or a true reflection of a man who actually cares about you.  I mean his message (paraphrasing):

"I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I tore away at you, the few pieces you have left.  I'm a coward, when I see you I fall more and more deeper, I ran away, I f*cking regret it."

What is that?  Are these the words of a man who truly cares about a woman?  They're a total mind f*ck!   

I dunno maybe he IS a coward, if he is, he's weak.    Is that the kind of man you want in your life long term?  A coward?  A weakling?  A man who runs away from god only knows what?

I know it's difficult for you to see this clearly because you're in love with him, or believe you are, and as the saying goes, love is blind.

In any event, you seem to believe he cares and perhaps even loves you and reading your responses, it appears there is not much anyone can say to convince you otherwise.

So all there is to do is play this out, let chips fall where they may, and if in the end, you get your heart broken, pick up the pieces and deal with it as best you can.

Some of the biggest lessons we learn in life are learned by making mistakes, I truly believe that.  Experience is the BEST teacher.

I just read this:

Blame was the wrong word on my part.  I meant responsibility.  Responsibility for what happens to you in life at any given moment.   It's about making the best choices for yourself.

Are you happy?  I don't know, I am simply asking.  You don't seem to be, you seem confused, hence this thread.

However, if you are happy, then carry on.  If not, consider making a different choice like walking away and eventually finding a man who's a better fit and capable of giving you what you need in a healthy way.  

I truly do wish you all the best @Cynderand I apologize if my posts come off as too harsh.

Good luck. 

 

 

 

This is an old thread that I bumped.  He sent the message you're talking about two months ago. 

Honestly, some people might say it takes a strong person to admit they are a coward.  Someone admitting they were a coward doesn't make them weak, in my opinion.  Do I want a weak person in my life?  Well, I don't expect anyone in my life to be 100% perfect 100% of the time.  That's a standard I can't even live up to.  I'm disabled.  A lot of people would say that makes me weak.  No one wants to admit it, but sadly in our society disabled people are seen as weak people.  And, everyone is strong in certain situations and weak in other situations. 

I have no plans on finding a man, or woman, or anyone at this point.  I like being single way too much to give it up.  

You didn't come off harsh.  You just seem to be missing some of the facts.  You keep referring to a two month old text message and not taking anything else into consideration.