At wits end with 3yo (nearly 4) boy

[breakbox90210]

Our son has just hit someone in nursery today because they didn't want to play with him, this was after the child said they didn't want to play with him because he was being unkind. 

He was taken out, explained what happened, asked if it happened to him would he think it would be nice (he said no) and apologised.

I'd like to say this is an isolated incident, but it's not. This is one of many which is accumulating over the last few weeks where he is just being a horrible child to interact with. 

He doesn't care almost all his toys have been taken away due to his bad behaviour. We bring him out to loads of nice places, like the farm at the weekend, where he spent the time not listening to us when we tried to do the treasure trail, was trying to be rough with other children in the hay bales, and when we said we had to leave, he ran away out of sight. 

Bed time is an absolute nightmare the last few weeks, it usually ends up in an hour long tantrum, with him throwing his bed clothes at us, trying to bite us, biting head boards and mattresses because "it's still bright out" and he doesn't want to go to bed. He deliberately screams in my ear since I told him that it really hurts me when he does. 

If it was just attitude and tantrums, we could deal with that, but the violence and vindictiveness is something I don't know how to deal with. 

I've even caught him a few times trying to stand on the cats tail on purpose. 

We have a 6 month old in the house, who he knows he scares to death when he screams and shouts, but does it anyway. In childcare, his current class are all going to big school, so he will be the oldest there for a year, but he is turning into a bully. 

I will admit that we are at our wits end, so patience is wearing thin, and we have exacerbated some of the situations through frustration, but I just don't get it. 

I even said to him today if he was really good in nursery, he could have a really big treat and play some of my musical instruments when he's home, which he was really excited about... but now that's not going to happen after the hitting incident. Which is going to be something else for him to get triggered about. 

He's due to have a birthday party where he has been using it in childcare to "uninvite" then "re-invite" people when he has a bad mood with them. We have told him if he's not nice, and doesn't stop un-inviting people, they might not show up if he continues being mean. We asked him would he go to a party if people un-invited him and were mean, to which he said "no". 

I just don't get it. It's him who is missing out, everyone just wants him to have fun, but obviously with some boundaries ... he just seems to want to ruin everything for himself by mis-behaving. 

I'd understand if we were overly lax or strict on punishment, which we try our best to find middle ground, but this is just so far on the ridiculous scale, we have no idea what to do.... 

 

[Wiseman2]

Hopefully your child sees a pediatrician regularly. Perhaps they can recommend  family therapy or a child psychologist. 

[MissCanuck]

I'm sorry you're going through this. 

His aggressive and violent behaviour is alarming enough that I would seek the advice of your doctor. Perhaps there are underlying issues that have not yet been identified. 

[Batya33]

I would seek professional advice.  And also on your end go back to basics - is he sleeping enough/eating enough/napping enough/hydrated enough? It can't hurt right? Also I highly recommend the book Your Three Year Old by Louise Bates Ames -oldie but really goodie -it might help.  And the book OUt of Sync Child. 

I'm so sorry you're struggling.  It's hard! Our son is 14. 

It will be all right -resources and advice will help you feel better about things.

[Seraphim]

This is very very common at this age. Lots of big emotions and the struggle for regulation is real . They don’t have the language or cognitive ability to be able to explain the struggle to you. I have worked in childcare centres and owned my own daycare for ages. I have my own adult child. But this is very common at that age. It is usually precipitated by a change. Is the child headed to school soon or some other major change in their life ? 

[breakbox90210]

15 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

This is very very common at this age. Lots of big emotions and the struggle for regulation is real . They don’t have the language or cognitive ability to be able to explain the struggle to you. I have worked in childcare centres and owned my own daycare for ages. I have my own adult child. But this is very common at that age. It is usually precipitated by a change. Is the child headed to school soon or some other major change in their life ? 

thank you for the re-assurance... we have a relation who is in childcare also, and said it's more common than we think... I have no experience of looking after children, other these current two, and we live away from family and friends so don't have that immersion/advice from them on situations like this...

re: change in life

my son has another year in childcare, he missed the cutoff for pre-school by a week, so a lot of his friends are finishing up in childcare and a lot of the younger class are moving up to his current class (which he will be the oldest in). 

we also have a 6 month old son, who obviously vies for attention from us also and has been a big change in routine

we are also back from a trip home about 6 weeks ago (where he is spoiled rotten usually, we try to reduce this as best we can, but there's not a lot we can do when they babysit and his routine goes out the window)...

we recognise that we want to pick our battles, so if it's been a day or two of conflict, we'll say "we just want to be friends and nice to each other" and go somewhere nice like the river or woods which he loves, but even those trips out end up in some sort of tantrum rage of something minuscule. Is so sad and frustrating to see, because when he's great, he's amazing and has loads of fun, and this behaviour just takes away any fun for him, either through time wasted in tantrums or as punishment when he gets violent (like we go home or take the toy he was violent with off him). 

[breakbox90210]

35 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I would seek professional advice.  And also on your end go back to basics - is he sleeping enough/eating enough/napping enough/hydrated enough? It can't hurt right? Also I highly recommend the book Your Three Year Old by Louise Bates Ames -oldie but really goodie -it might help.  And the book OUt of Sync Child. 

I'm so sorry you're struggling.  It's hard! Our son is 14. 

It will be all right -resources and advice will help you feel better about things.

thank you for the recommendations. 

My partner suggested just as you said, as one of my suggestions was keep him out after childcare and tire him out, but they said we need to get him home, fed and watered, then do something, as that also provides a de-marcation between "childcare time" and "home time".

Napping may be a big factor also, he still naps, usually for an hour (most of his peers have dropped this), he has started to drop it intermittently, or just go down for 20 mins. 

Sleep at night, on a good night its about 10 hours... bad night is 8 ish... he still wakes during the night to jump into another bed, but is gone back to sleep straight away. 

I'm also looking into local support.

[Seraphim]

A lot of change then. All his friends are leaving him and he has a new sibling. He can’t explain his distress to you. Have talks with him about the changes at nursery and at home . I guarantee this is the origins of the distress. At that age that is the only way they can impart to you that they are upset.

[Seraphim]

Think about it this way if all your friends moved away and your husband got a new wife you would be distraught, that is how he is feelings but can’t explain anything to you about the enormity of how he feels. 

[Starlight925]

A family member was having a similar situation with their four year old son. They did some reading and decided to take away all food coloring from his diet. It took about a week, and he became this different child.  He  minded  them and became fun to interact with.

Now, he shows packages of food to his mommy and asks her if there are food colorings in it before he asks if he can eat it.  He’s even started to call any TV shows that have violence in them  “food coloring.”

My family member that went through this was at her wit’s end and read a post by a psychologist who was having a similar issue with her own child.

He even put himself in time out one day when I was over there. He knew he had done something slightly bad and he said “I have to go to time out. I’ll be back in a minute”.  Adorable.

The worst offender is red dye.

[Kwothe28]

3 hours ago, breakbox90210 said:

I even said to him today if he was really good in nursery, he could have a really big treat and play some of my musical instruments when he's home, which he was really excited about... but now that's not going to happen after the hitting incident.

No, just no. You are exhibiting what we call "inconsistant parenting". Your kid wont learn anything because he doesnt care about "punishment" when you "reward" him all the time. Taking his toys wont make any effect when you coddle him and give him nice stuff all the time. He uninvites kids for his birthday, you take him to farm. No. Its that kind of behavior that doesnt make him learn nothing at all because he gets rewarded with stuff like that regardless of his bad behavior. So why should he change when he still can act bad and get everything he wants?

You spoiled your kid. And as a result he doesnt even listens to you at all. Both him and you need a good child psychologist. So you both can fix your behavior. Him not to be a bully toward you and other kids and you to learn a proper educational techniques. Because not only that system of rewards and punishments is not that effective, but you are not even doing it properly. 

[breakbox90210]

20 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

No, just no. You are exhibiting what we call "inconsistant parenting". Your kid wont learn anything because he doesnt care about "punishment" when you "reward" him all the time. Taking his toys wont make any effect when you coddle him and give him nice stuff all the time. He uninvites kids for his birthday, you take him to farm. No. Its that kind of behavior that doesnt make him learn nothing at all because he gets rewarded with stuff like that regardless of his bad behavior. So why should he change when he still can act bad and get everything he wants?

You spoiled your kid. And as a result he doesnt even listens to you at all. Both him and you need a good child psychologist. So you both can fix your behavior. Him not to be a bully toward you and other kids and you to learn a proper educational techniques. Because not only that system of rewards and punishments is not that effective, but you are not even doing it properly. 

you have it the wrong way round, he was at the farm on Sunday... and only because he earned it being good for 2 days... the un-inviting came yesterday, and what you quoted off me was with regards to today, which he was told he could play with some instruments today if he was good, which he wasn't, so he won't be.

I take on board the sentiment, but reject the tone... When he earns something back we do it, when he does something wrong, treats and toys are taken away, this has always been consistent... this behaviour has only started to be more prevalent the last 6 to 8 weeks and is centred in childcare and at bedtime. He hasn't had TV in weeks as a result of his behaviour and is allowed to play with colouring books and writing letters and numbers when he gets home and we usually get out for a walk to burn off some final energy.

[Batya33]

Oh!! I also highly recommend Janet Lansbury’s website and writings. I have no affiliation at all except I’m a fan !  There’s a poster on this forum who is fond of “my heart goes out to you”. This is exactly how I feel about your post and situation. I get it !! I love Seraphim input too. I also taught daycare and young kids from around 1986-1991 lol and had my son in 2009! We also had no family around but I was home first 7 years. He started preschool part time at age 3.5. 
If it helps - his FIRST week of school my adorable cherub who showed no aggression ever - but was high energy - apparently hit another child on the head with maybe a canister ??
 

Honestly I don’t know why he had access to one. One time. We didn’t know why and he didn’t or couldn’t  tell us why - and he liked this little girl then and thereafter! No other aggression just not so good at circle time or following directions but he got with the program eventually. I was mortified that he did this to the girl. When he was young he was a handful at times despite at times being a cute handful and I don’t have the answers to what specific sorts of discipline and redirection work and as far as the nutrition angle and food coloring type advice - I mean it’s bandied about on my moms groups on a regular basis. We simply coated him in food coloring just for the heck of it lol.  Kidding. 

I’m glad you’re so involved and have such good intentions and are so open minded.  I wish this parenting gig came with a manual. Even now that he’s 14. Maybe especially so. My heart goes out to you with all these changes and obviously you’re tired from being a new mama again !!!
 

[Kwothe28]

39 minutes ago, breakbox90210 said:

you have it the wrong way round, he was at the farm on Sunday... and only because he earned it being good for 2 days

Yes but his behavior is not good. He bullies kids in daycare and bullies you at home, scares your baby and even does animal cruelty. And its a direct consequence of your upbringing of him. You want to know why punishment doesnt work? Because punishment doesnt lead to eliminating that behavior but just to avoiding it. After they see its still OK to do it because there are no real consequences they will continue with the behavior. And you rewarded him for measly 2 days of him being "good". Its an inconsistant behavior that only leads him to think how its OK to act in the way he acts. Because there are no real consequences of it. You would still coddle him at the end.

Hence why you both need to go to good child psychologist. So you both can learn there. Otherwise he would maybe remain to be a bully and cause you a lot more problems then just at childcare. Ages 3 to 6 are criticial in child development stage. If you dont rectify some of his behaviors now, he would maybe still act in that way even later. 

[breakbox90210]

3 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Yes but his behavior is not good. He bullies kids in daycare and bullies you at home, scares your baby and even does animal cruelty. And its a direct consequence of your upbringing of him. You want to know why punishment doesnt work? Because punishment doesnt lead to eliminating that behavior but just to avoiding it. After they see its still OK to do it because there are no real consequences they will continue with the behavior. And you rewarded him for measly 2 days of him being "good". Its an inconsistant behavior that only leads him to think how its OK to act in the way he acts. Because there are no real consequences of it. You would still coddle him at the end.

Hence why you both need to go to good child psychologist. So you both can learn there. Otherwise he would maybe remain to be a bully and cause you a lot more problems then just at childcare. Ages 3 to 6 are criticial in child development stage. If you dont rectify some of his behaviors now, he would maybe still act in that way even later. 

How many days do you recommend he be hazed for bad behaviour? 

[Batya33]

8 minutes ago, breakbox90210 said:

How many days do you recommend he be hazed for bad behaviour? 

This is just what we did personally for bad choices. We did positive reinforcement when he did the right thing. We took away privileges / did time outs. Heck sometimes when it was safe -when he was older - I gave myself time outs. I warned in advance what privileges would be taken away AND was consistent with follow through. 
we didn’t take away food. Once in awhile we’d take away an extra special treat we’d promised but that was rare. 
also a la Daniel Tiger Neighborhood he had to say “sorry “ and “how can I help “. Then we’d tell him. As in “next time you’re told it’s time to leave the playground you come right then.” Etc. very specific.

We tried not to use bland broad phrases like “good boy” as opposed to “the way you stopped playing when we told you to was thoughtful “

also act out good behavior with his toys.  Whether it’s dolls or stuffed animals. And read books like curious George books and also when he’s a bit older the No David series. JMHO!

oh and for misbehaving at school we first and foremost deferred to the teacher as far as consequences and worked with teacher to reinforce at home. 

[Kwothe28]

12 minutes ago, breakbox90210 said:

How many days do you recommend he be hazed for bad behaviour? 

I never recommended hazing in the first place. Literally told you why its inneficient. I recommended child psychologist. So you could learn a proper techiques of dealing with him. Pushing all this under the rug, thinking how all of this is just a phase and getting mad at me for saying how you spoiled him wont help you. Fixing your upbringing of him and his behavior will help you in the long track. Otherwise, again, you can just expect more problems in the future. Problems where even authorities could be involved with. So take this seriosly and try to work with proper channels of dealing with it before its too late.

[boltnrun]

I would definitely take him to the pediatrician to see if anything physical is going on. Explain (when your son isn't present) his behavior and ask for recommendations.

I agree that the new baby along with daycare is the likely cause but it doesn't hurt to make sure he isn't dealing with any medical issues.

A long time family friend developed issues when he started daycare. He actually developed an ulcer at age four! His parents removed him from daycare which solved the issue (and the ulcer went away). To this day he is still a highly sensitive individual. 

[breakbox90210]

37 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

This is just what we did personally for bad choices. We did positive reinforcement when he did the right thing. We took away privileges / did time outs. Heck sometimes when it was safe -when he was older - I gave myself time outs. I warned in advance what privileges would be taken away AND was consistent with follow through. 
we didn’t take away food. Once in awhile we’d take away an extra special treat we’d promised but that was rare. 
also a la Daniel Tiger Neighborhood he had to say “sorry “ and “how can I help “. Then we’d tell him. As in “next time you’re told it’s time to leave the playground you come right then.” Etc. very specific.

We tried not to use bland broad phrases like “good boy” as opposed to “the way you stopped playing when we told you to was thoughtful “

also act out good behavior with his toys.  Whether it’s dolls or stuffed animals. And read books like curious George books and also when he’s a bit older the No David series. JMHO!

oh and for misbehaving at school we first and foremost deferred to the teacher as far as consequences and worked with teacher to reinforce at home. 

this is exactly what childcare do and what we try and replicate (positive re-inforcement technique they call it... we try and work with the childminders as best we can, even they can't put their finger on why such a change), thank you for the additional tips though, will give them a go.

[tattoobunnie]

Read up on Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD)

They aren't motivated by sticker charts or treats or positive affirmations or time outs.  Definitely get him evaluated by a developmental pediatrician.

[breakbox90210]

22 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I never recommended hazing in the first place. Literally told you why its inneficient. I recommended child psychologist. So you could learn a proper techiques of dealing with him. Pushing all this under the rug, thinking how all of this is just a phase and getting mad at me for saying how you spoiled him wont help you. Fixing your upbringing of him and his behavior will help you in the long track. Otherwise, again, you can just expect more problems in the future. Problems where even authorities could be involved with. So take this seriosly and try to work with proper channels of dealing with it before its too late.

Not mad at all, currently for the last 3 weeks he had 4 cars he can play with in the bath, no TV, can ride his scooter on the walk in the evenings... we brought him to a farm after 2 days of good behaviour and it was the weekend (in a perspective sense, 2 days to a 3 yo is what a week would feel like to us) to show what he can get when he is good... he acted up, we left as a result... 

So if 2 days isn't enough, what is? should we take literally everything off him and leave him to be bored for the day ... I give that 15 mins for any 3yo before that's an absolute car crash.

 

 

[Seraphim]

Just remember punishment at this age beyond a few minutes is pointless because they no longer remember what they’re being punished for. Positive reinforcement and consistency is best. 

[breakbox90210]

27 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I would definitely take him to the pediatrician to see if anything physical is going on. Explain (when your son isn't present) his behavior and ask for recommendations.

I agree that the new baby along with daycare is the likely cause but it doesn't hurt to make sure he isn't dealing with any medical issues.

A long time family friend developed issues when he started daycare. He actually developed an ulcer at age four! His parents removed him from daycare which solved the issue (and the ulcer went away). To this day he is still a highly sensitive individual. 

noted, thank you!

[breakbox90210]

2 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

Just remember punishment at this age beyond a few minutes is pointless because they no longer remember what they’re being punished for. Positive reinforcement and consistency is best. 

that's what childcare are saying too, just need to grit my teeth a little longer

[breakbox90210]

5 minutes ago, tattoobunnie said:

Read up on Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD)

They aren't motivated by sticker charts or treats or positive affirmations.  Definitely get him evaluated by a developmental pediatrician.

will give it a read, thank you!