What’s next?

[catfeeder]

3 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

So, if I'm following correctly, she reached out, and that served as an elixir to your spins for an hour? Seems like you're building a pretty serious tolerance to the affects of the drug. 

I'm reluctant to wade into the Great Hair Debate, I admit. From where I sit, it feels like the very debate you were having with yourself (with us straw people serving as a mirror) before you even met her: the feeling of having being shunned by society, of inhabiting a subset of bohemia that has alienated you from women, from school systems, from America. From that angle, it was only a matter of time before she did or said something to stir all this, and the odds were always going to be higher given the pretty sizable chasm in your backgrounds and life stations. 

Ding, ding, ding, ding!

We've seen the lamenting for months (or years?) that NO woman would ever want me.

Then a smart and wonderful woman not only likes you--she flat out sleeps with you, and you both start premature nesting behaviors in one another's lives...

And then you hit some natural spots of friction here and there, and you're even surviving people from this forum telling you to just tank this thing.

Look, if SHE ever tanks it, we'll be here for you, but why become your own worst enemy instead of enjoying the gifts of human intimacy you have been seeking for so long--and finally cultivating?

Head high.

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think it's fine -neutral - she cares about what her professional colleagues think.  Her professional life is a huge part of her life. She knows far far better than you what is acceptable and what is not.  And  her professional life will be whether or not you are in her life -at least until she retires (my dad was a doctor and retired early -at age 73 -due to his medical  condition - but would have loved to work into his 80s at least) - so she has to prioritize and not make waves especially with a new person in her life.  You don't get it -at least it seems like you don't - because you've never had such a long professional career as she has and you didn't care as much about your teaching career as she seems to care about her medical career.  

 

You may be right. I want her to be happy in her career, obviously, but I also want her to respect my life choices, as well. They are no better or worse. Just different. I think you get that.
 

Interesting to think though… She’s pretty much at the top of her profession. She doesn’t really have a lot more. She needs to prove, so from that perspective, I don’t know who she really feels she needs to impress.

That’s why I relate to rainbows perspective on it… This is really more about her ego, I think, that it really is about her saving face within her profession. I think she’s got her profession, pretty much in the palm of her hand, if you wanna look at it that way.

I just don’t wanna feel the way I do about it. My ego has taken a hit. I don’t want to feel that way. I also hope I haven’t alienated her with my attitude, which I believe is a valid attitude. It’s just not her attitude.

I do think she is likely thinking, the same thing that I was, and that she thought she found this guy that just loved her just the way she is, but then the crack started appearing… And I think her fantasy has started to crumble a little bit, and now she’s left with the reality that she’s with an imperfect guy, that has lots of problems, and who won’t be able to fix her life the way she had hoped. Same for me. 

I started to wonder about this fantasy thing when I was with her a few weeks ago. The look in her eye, and I’ve seen it before with my borderline lady friend, was one of looking at me, as if I was going to be some sort of savior for her. I’ve seen that book before, and it’s not necessarily her looking at reality, I don’t think. I was probably looking back in the same way, so I think I understand it. 

[Whirling D]

OK, here is a lame logistical question.
 

This afternoon, during our last text, I asked her if we would be able to talk in cyber real time and a video call at some point either today or tomorrow, and she said “maybe this afternoon later”.

I know she usually likes talking while she’s driving, because she likes the company while she drives, so I said to her “maybe you could give me a ring on your hour drive home, and I can try to keep you company…” She never did respond. I am learning to interpret that as her way of saying “OK”.

Thinking she was going to leave somewhere around 7 PM, which is her usual time of living up there… Which means she might already be on route. But she hasn’t called. She might she might be delayed. I don’t know.

I’ve got other stuff to have to do, so I’m wondering if I should just call her or text her and ask her if she’s on her way yet and if she wants to talk.

She didn’t actually agreed to call me, so I don’t know if it would be too pushy to just call her up like I usually do.

What do you think?

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

You may be right. I want her to be happy in her career, obviously, but I also want her to respect my life choices, as well. They are no better or worse. Just different. I think you get that.

I believe her professional career takes precedence right now whether or not you as armchair therapist think she shouldn't care cause she's reached the zenith. If you go to an event with her in the next few months you are far more likely to be temporary in her life than her career.  Your life choices have zilch to do with whether you dress in a costume for a professional event and if it's that extreme for you you don't belong with someone with her lifestyle- incompatible. Or don't go.  She should let you look scruffy at her professional event so you can be true to your "life choices??"

If you two get married or like married then you compromise meaning you go to an event rarely so that your life choices are not affected -you see it as life choices and she likely will be baffled at that designation but ok - and she respects that you have an extreme reaction to being asked to change your appearance for a professional event despite wanting to be there -there's a compromise there.

I don't think she's that into talking with you today.  I wouldn't call.  Leave her be and let her unwind from the weekend -she's probably tired of talking.  

[rainbowsandroses]

Hi Whirling, not sure if this will post as me but this is @rainbowsandroses.

Please forget my previous posts. I'm sorry.  I am just ultra-sensitive to any type of behavior that appears controlling and "appearance" oriented. 

All my life I've had to live up to the expectations of others (boyfriends and husband, mother) to be beautiful, skinny, perfect.

It's really taken its toll and it appears now I'm heading in the other extreme, not allowing anyone to control or dominate me with their "expectations."

My appearance is my business and if I choose to be skinny or fat, ugly or beautiful it will be MY choice. 

That said, I wonder how many people feel as Dr Lady does and YOU after your admission to wanting her to maintain her long her to impress your friends and maintain your attraction BUT they keep it to themselves. 

Gotta give her credit for being honest I suppose because when you think about it, I bet there are lots of people who feel as she does but keep it to themselves for fear of stirring the pot and/or hurting their partner with their preferences. 

I think I'm even guilty of that! 

This isn't my thread but it's been quite helpful to ME, thank you to @catfeederand @Batya33 for showing me a different side.

 

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Hi Whirling, not sure if this will post as me but this is @rainbowsandroses.

Please forget my previous posts. I'm sorry.  I am just ultra-sensitive to any type of behavior that appears controlling and "appearance" oriented. 

All my life I've had to live up to the expectations of others (boyfriends and husband, mother) to be beautiful, skinny, perfect.

It's really taken its toll and it appears now I'm heading in the other extreme, not allowing anyone to control or dominate me with their "expectations."

My appearance is my business and if I choose to be skinny or fat, ugly or beautiful it will be MY choice. 

That said, I wonder how many people feel as Dr Lady does and YOU after your admission to wanting her to maintain her long her to impress your friends and maintain your attraction BUT they keep it to themselves. 

Gotta give her credit for being honest I suppose because when you think about it, I bet there are lots of people who feel as she does but keep it to themselves for fear of stirring the pot and/or hurting their partner with there preferences. 

 

I get it rainbow. I appreciate your perspective. I don’t disagree, but sadly, we live in a world where people don’t always think like we do, and things don’t always go the way we want.
 

I am never one who will be unwilling to compromise, but I may not like it. But I would do it. For her. I hope I made that clear to her. Not sure if that’s what she heard or not. Not sure if it has anything to do with why things seem to have chilled, if that’s even what has happened. 

[Wiseman2]

19 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

  who won’t be able to fix her life the way she had hoped. 

She seems to be looking for someone she can relate to. And yes it's possible that is slipping away for both of you.

 It's doubtful she needs rescuing.  It's doubtful she's wringing her hands about affording car repairs. She's made it this far in life and has a comfortable retirement ahead. 

Sadly if she knew that you secretly believe she's an "elitist stuck up b",  she would probably break up.  So you're not really being true to yourself either.

[LootieTootie]

7 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

 

She didn’t actually agreed to call me, so I don’t know if it would be too pushy to just call her up like I usually do.

What do you think?

If there's one thing I preach about dating, in the early stages, go with your gut.

You been feeling drlady being off, short and distant. So she might be wanting some space to herself to think about things. I say give her that and don't reach out. Let her come to you when she's ready to talk.

[LootieTootie]

Oh also WD, man buns are in now 😄

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

All my life I've had to live up to the expectations of others (boyfriends and husband, mother) to be beautiful, skinny, perfect.

It's really taken its toll and it appears now I'm heading in the other extreme, not allowing anyone to control or dominate me with their "expectations."

My appearance is my business and if I choose to be skinny or fat, ugly or beautiful it will be MY choice. 

I'm so very sorry you experienced this.  I went on two dates with a really handsome man when I was in my late 20s and after the second date he said would I be willing to wear more makeup -his mom had offered to take me for a makeover at a fancy salon. My mom actually said "well you can wear a bit more lipstick maybe?"  I'm sorry to say -this is embarrassing -I did go out with him one more time -on Halloween actually.  I saw years later in the local paper that he married a woman in the fashion industry.  Right.  Ironically I'd gone on the second date getting over a bad cold (back then people did  this) and I likely looked extra pale.  Whatever.  What a jerk.  But back then my mom -a product of the 1950s etc -didn't see it as so horrible that he made that suggestion.  But I did.  So yes I get it on that level, for sure!

A counter example -in my late 30s I had a first meet.  He wanted to meet for a drink and I suggested a nice bar in a shopping/office complex. He knew of the place.  He showed up dressed as if he were homeless -raggedy old clothes, unkempt hair - honestly I wouldn't have been surprised if he was on drugs the way he presented.  There was NO WAY I was walking into a nice bar/restaurant with him.  Yes of course I cared about being seen with him at a nice restaurant  and I was offended that he couldn't be bothered to be presentable for a first meet. 

Without saying anything about his appearance I suggested a bookstore with a cafe.  We got tea.  Thankfully he agreed.  I ended the date in under 30 minutes.  I wouldn't have cared if he was the nicest person ever - showing up looking/dressing like that is a dealbreaker IMO.

Again I am very sorry you were treated in this way.  I had an undiagnosed eating disorder in my teens/early 20s but it was all me -not because of anything my parents did -if anything my mom helped me get back to "normal".

[Whirling D]

Good morning everybody… At least it’s morning in eastern North America… 🙂
 

I had a nice simple phone call with the doctor lady last night. She didn’t call me on the way home in the car, which was surprising, but she left for home earlier than she thought from her beach house and called me on the phone after she got home. Not a video call, but a regular phone call.

I soon teased her why I wasn’t able to see her pretty face because it wasn’t our usual video call, and she said that she didn’t feel presentable at the time. OK. Previously, I probably would have convinced her to a video call, mostly in a teasing manner, and she usually has complied, but I wasn’t going to push things.

She seemed like she was in a good space, and happy to talk. We chitchatted about this and that, and it was easy and fun flowing and engaged. I didn’t feel any real need to bring up any topics such as, “so, where do we stand“ or anything like that. I asked her about her weekend, she asked me about things that were going on, etc. 

We did spend a fair amount of time talking about the hard time My daughter went through a few days ago, and she seemed interested, engaged, and empathetic. All good.  Lovely, even.

At the end of the call, perhaps 30 or 40 minutes, she said, “OK, well, I will talk to you tomorrow“ to which I responded, “when shall I call you next?“ She thought about it a moment, and then suggested I call her tomorrow night, which is tonight.  OK. I may be going to a local fireworks event tonight, and told her I may be going to that.

Speaking of that, I have been telling her about this event almost since I have known her, and I’ve been practically begging her to go, since it is one of the best local events of the year… and she hasn’t been interested in going, because it’s on a work night. That’s disappointing, because I haven’t asked her to a lot of activities, and I know she would absolutely love this fireworks display. You are pretty much sitting right next to where they go off, and it is awesome for a small town. but still, she wasn’t willing to figure out a way to make it happen, and she had said in the past that it would just keep her up way too late and she would be too tired the next day. I guess I get it, but for special occasions, I would be there in a heartbeat. Not her. I’m trying not to read too much into that, other than her inability to go outside of her box here or there. Oh, well. 

So. I think it’s been about three weeks that I have been calling her every morning on her drive to work. Last Wednesday may have been the only day in three weeks, maybe longer, I haven’t talked with her on her way to work. She didn’t suggest I call her this morning, which I thought was a bit unusual. Usually she’s eager to have me call her on her ride. She said previously that she likes talking to me in the morning. But not this morning. 

I’m trying not to make anything of that, but here’s what I think… There has definitely been a shift between her and I. I don’t think it necessarily is a bad thing, and I don’t necessarily believe that it means that things are going downhill. I can’t say for sure, but that’s not the feeling I get. this new vibe could be simply  settling in from what was formally mostly like a fantasy between us.

As most of you have said, that fantasy could not likely be sustained. Maybe it could for some people, as I would continue prioritizing calling her every morning if that’s what she wanted,  and maybe we will get back to that at some point, but for whatever reason, she didn’t suggest I talk with her this morning… Perhaps because she didn’t hear me pushing for it, who knows. Lately, I have been pulling back a bit and letting her come to me, and who knows whether she is noticing that change as well. She’s pretty perceptive about those things, so it wouldn’t it all surprise me if she has noticed that I haven’t been texting her as much, or initiating calls as much, particularly since late last week. 

I do think it was a good thing that I laid off a bit over the weekend, as you guys had suggested. Thank you for pushing me to do that. I think it was helpful, but it’s hard to say.

We didn’t at all talk about when we would see each other next. It just didn’t seem to come up, and it may not really mean anything since it is early in the week. But she has all of next week off, and she is expecting to go to her beach house, and last weekend when I was up there, she was saying, she hoped I was going to be able to take some days off to go up there with her.

I’m not sure if I can take days off during the week, due to my own work, and having my kid, and I hope that doesn’t become disappointing to her and add to her possible not wanting to continue dating.

So if I had to summarize, I do think she is pulling back a bit, but I don’t necessarily think it means she is bailing out or preparing to exit. Maybe it’s just becoming more realistic for her.

I’m sure she talked to her friend, and her friend sounds nice, and I would hope that her friend said that if she really likes me, then she should perhaps not judge me by the things that may be on her mind… But I have no idea what they talked about.

So I think my approach, and my goal is to just try to chill and not get bent out of shape about stuff… And try not to drink coffee, which I think makes my anxiety worse. But then again, I had it yesterday, and I felt OK last night when I was speaking to her, and although I was anxious before hearing from her, I was at least marginally OK.

I don’t know what all this means, but I guess I am writing just to process where things are at right now, which I don’t think is a bad place.

oh, upon preparing to hang up last night… There was a little bit of awkwardness… I think we were both trying to figure out what we should say to each other to sign off… A lot of times we do silly kissing sounds, and sometimes if it is a video call, I will actually put my lips up to the camera and do this silly kissing thing, and she will sometimes do it back… So, I made the kissing sound, and then, in her very squeaky hesitant child like voice, she said “love you…” And I said “love you too”. Then we hung up. 

Overall, I think it was a positive call and I think we are still doing OK and not self-destructing.  I sense we are both feeling really vulnerable and just taking things slowly, and that’s not such a bad thing I guess.

[MissCanuck]

55 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

She didn’t suggest I call her this morning, which I thought was a bit unusual. Usually she’s eager to have me call her on her ride. She said previously that she likes talking to me in the morning. But not this morning.

Sometimes people just don't feel like chatting. It doesn't require further analysis. Maybe she's gotten a bit weary of talking every single morning. I would urge you not to hit the panic button. 

55 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

she wasn’t willing to figure out a way to make it happen, and she had said in the past that it would just keep her up way too late and she would be too tired the next day. I guess I get it, but for special occasions, I would be there in a heartbeat

You two obviously have very different mindsets when it comes to work and professional commitments. I wouldn't be keen on this either, especially because I have a job that requires me to be alert and focused. As a doctor, this is even more pertinent for her. You have to stop taking everything so personally and start remembering you and this woman are very different in certain ways. This is one of them. 

[Batya33]

I was going to write what Canuck did. I bristled at your judgment of her not doing some out of the box thing for fireworks - really ?  You want your doctor to be exhausted at work because she went to a fireworks event with a guy she’s dating and is sleep deprived ?  Reminds me of a woman I was supervising over 20 years ago who committed to coming to work on a Sunday because of a project deadline that required our intense focus on details. She arrived and looked ill.  I felt badly and asked if she was ok. She was. Just hungover from drinking and partying late the night before.  Which she told me without apology despite knowing of the work commitment.

I wouldn’t want an appointment for a physical with an exhausted doctor who could miss who knows what or if I showed up sick etc. good for her for caring about her work and alertness. 

 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

   …  she has all of next week off, and she is expecting to go to her beach house, and last weekend when I was up there, she was saying, she hoped I was going to be able to take some days off to go up there with her.

It's great she's getting some needed R and R. Hopefully she'll invite you up for a day or two. 

[Whirling D]

1 hour ago, MissCanuck said:

Sometimes people just don't feel like chatting. It doesn't require further analysis. Maybe she's gotten a bit weary of talking every single morning. I would urge you not to hit the panic button. 

You two obviously have very different mindsets when it comes to work and professional commitments. I wouldn't be keen on this either, especially because I have a job that requires me to be alert and focused. As a doctor, this is even more pertinent for her. You have to stop taking everything so personally and start remembering you and this woman are very different in certain ways. This is one of them. 

Very true, Canuck, thank you.

You are right… She can’t be going into work exhausted and lose focus.

20 years ago when I was teaching, every Thursday night I would be up late playing music with a couple of friends… Sometimes not to bed until 1 AM. Then, I would be awake at 6 AM to go to work. It sucked, but it only lasted a day. Then I felt better. That was rough because I had to face 24 kids all day long and be high energy and not wanting to throw someone out the window. But that was me back then, and not her.  Her stakes and liability are much greater.

My last several dating experiences with women that said that my tolerance for risk taking was much higher than theirs, and I suspect it’s no differently here. I am willing to risk being exhausted once in a while for something good, or important. She’s not really a risk taker in any ways at all.

I think the only time I have ever been really curt with the lady doctor was a few weeks ago when I was in my car and I was driving with my bare feet, and she said something like… “I think it’s against the rules to drive with bare feet, isn’t it?“ I responded to her rather curtly saying, “I don’t care, I’ve been doing it for years“. So, yeah, sometimes I can be a Little intolerant when someone is not willing to operate outside the box a bit.
 

So, her not coming to the fireworks display, which is only one of two or three events I’d love her to be part of, does irritate me a bit, but I get what you are saying, and I will try not to be further irritated by it. It is what it is.

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

and I suspect it’s no differently here. I am willing to risk being exhausted once in a while for something good, or important. She’s not really a risk taker in any ways at all.

She might be but not when it comes to her being up to par and decently rested for her professional responsibilities.  Thank goodness! When's the las time you took the risk of waiting for her to reach out first without a prompting text from you?

[Whirling D]

31 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's great she's getting some needed R and R. Hopefully she'll invite you up for a day or two. 

 Agreed… Thank you, Wise. I hope so as well.

[Whirling D]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

She might be but not when it comes to her being up to par and decently rested for her professional responsibilities.  Thank goodness! When's the las time you took the risk of waiting for her to reach out first without a prompting text from you?

Well, she often says that she can’t wait to not have to work anymore, or something like that. She dreads having to work as much as she does, even at four days a week.

I can’t say this with any certainty, or whether it really matters, but I suspect that her disinterest in staying up late is less related to feeling like she wants to be professionally responsible, which I know will be important to her, but more that she figures she’s just going to feel like crap. I certainly get that part of it, because that’s a greater part of why I haven’t regained a full-time job. I don’t want to feel exhausted like that anymore.

As an aside, I tend to find that I can stay up late for one night and usually be marginally OK the next day. It’s when I compound late nights that I start to suffer quite dramatically.  I would probably risk staying up late for one night, knowing this. However, I could always come home and rest a little. She often has too many other responsibilities to take care of.

[Batya33]

Just now, Whirling D said:

As an aside, I tend to find that I can stay up late for one night and usually be marginally OK the next day. It’s when I compound late nights that I start to suffer quite dramatically.  I would probably risk staying up late for one night, knowing this. However, I could always come home and rest a little. She often has too many other responsibilities to take care of.

That's you not her.  Just like some people take more risks when they date -like I asked you -you rarely if ever wait for her to text you or call if you're feeling anxious -you won't risk feeling uncomfortable or waiting to hear from her.  I am not a big risk taker in physical or health matters (and I am terrible if sleep deprived -scary sometimes) - but I've always been quite a risk taker socially and with things like public speaking/performing.  

I think many people have their days and moments where they want to quit/it's too much.  Work is work for a reason.  It's not play and it can be exhausting for sure.  So is parenting.

[Wiseman2]

50 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I am willing to risk being exhausted once in a while for something good, or important. She’s not really a risk taker in any ways at all.

 

It's  just not that important or interesting to her, has nothing to do with risk taking.

As far as risk taking, she seems to take calculated risks. The type of person who invests for gain rather than gambles for thrills.

Every time she writes in a chart she takes risks. People with high levels of responsibility take huge risks all the time, but not reckless risks with other people's lives 

In other words where there's a risk benefit ratio, not just reckless fun.  That's probably why her retirement portfolio looks like it does. 

[MissCanuck]

15 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

She’s not really a risk taker in any ways at all.

I don't see how not wanting to be exhausted and in bad shape for work the next day qualifies as not taking a risk. She's being responsible and listening to her body. Risk has nothing to do with it. 

[MrMan1983]

To be honest I don't actually understand the purpose of talking twice a day on the phone anyway if you both know what each other are doing, aside from it soothing some sort of anxiety but convo wise I imagine the novelty would wear off fast, surprised it was maintained that long. As previously mentioned will work in your favour to let each other miss each other a bit so wouldn't worry too much about her taking a very slight step back to a more maintainable amount of contact moving forward, plus at least you'll have more to talk about if it is more sporadic. Sounds like you see that though at least.

Probably wouldn't of done the 'when shall I call you next?' thing again though, no biggy but does come across a little needy and predictable, can just call/text each other when you feel like it instead of having to book it in.

Anyway stuff seems fairly good Whirling if you can keep that neediness in check, also I'm glad to not hear about that blooming drama about putting your hair up for one work do thing for a few messages 😛 haha (I jest).

[bluecastle]

Small observation: 

From what you've outlined on this forum, it seems you've primarily been interested in women who are very, very different than you. Your ex-wife is a money-making lawyer. The gf who brought you to this nook of the internet was politically conservative while you see AOC as a kind of spirit animal. Now we have the doctor, who, in comparison to you and your self-conception, is a risk averse square who bristles at barefoot driving and doesn't appreciate fireworks.

Just seems curious me, since these differences, there from day one, quickly seem to become points of deep consternation for you.

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, bluecastle said:

Small observation: 

From what you've outlined on this forum, it seems you've primarily been interested in women who are very, very different than you. Your ex-wife is a money-making lawyer. The gf who brought you to this nook of the internet was politically conservative while you see AOC as a kind of spirit animal. Now we have the doctor, who, in comparison to you and your self-conception, is a risk averse square who bristles at barefoot driving and doesn't appreciate fireworks.

Just seems curious me, since these differences, there from day one, quickly seem to become points of deep consternation for you.

I have a theory about this based on books/articles I've read, videos watched discussing avoidants and "commitmentphobes."

That they subconsciously choose people who end up being all wrong for them, too many differences and issues to overcome.

Why?  It's safer that way, emotionally.

When there are so many issues to work through etc, there's no room to achieve true emotional intimacy with each other, which being an avoidant causes them discomfort and fear.

With another woman/person more appropriate where things are relatively easy, they get bored, feel unchallenged and well, fearful that something more will be expected from them like emotional intimacy and commitment.

So they run which Whirling has admitted doing in previous relationships that were easy, flowing and the women were clear about their interest.

I posted this earlier but there are some people who feel more comfortable in the uncomfortable. 

Whirling may be one such person. 

I referred a great book discussing this many pages back but Whirling dislikes reading so it went ignored. 

Anyway, just a theory.

[Type O Negative]

D,

Out of the entire thread, I've got to comment on going out till late on a school night. In any other job - in a new relationship where you're mad about the man you're with - absolutely, been there, done that, have lived through a hundred epic hangovers. But for a doctor - who's 61!- I totally get her and agree with her.  It's not about fun nights mid week..it's about life and death for her, literally, every day. You talk about her being moody or bad tempered sometimes - cut her some slack..don't expect her to always be cheery and relaxed and happy to hear from you. Don't expect her to want mid-week late nights. Wrong job and wrong age.

I hope it works out for you although if I was very honest I doubt it, sorry.