feminism not a variable? check splitting

[sff123]

I'm kind of a hard core feminist.  It's not something as a guy I just pick up when it's convenient (check splitting). Im a very political person and it's something I'm engaged with on a regular basis. I haven't been dating for years so the paying for dinner thing hasn't been relevant to me recently at all. 

I know this is an extremely small sample but I was just listening to a podcast where 2 women even younger than me, but not immature (early 30s I think), both agreed without reservation that if a guy wasn't paying for dinner on a date there's no way you would go on a 2nd date with him, no matter how well the date had gone otherwise. Now obviously I understand how if someone wasn't a feminist this wouldn't even be a factor. But realistically most women that age are and I heard other stray phrases that seemed to confirm what demographically speaking would usually be the case. However neither of them even mentioned feminism when it came to this issue and they seemed to take granted to the highest degree that this was just something that they were worth and accepting less would be bad. 

Now this story has 2 obvious "answers".

From a "be yourself " standpoint, obviously it doesn't matter what 2 random women in a podcast think. Compromising your values over something so trivial is absurd. Everyone should have the courage of their convictions and if someone doesn't like you for who you are so be it.

And from a strategic standpoint, obviously the exact opposite. Paying for a dinner isn't a big deal (it's been done for centuries and I've done it myself plenty of times). Yeah you might care about your values but you also don't want to shoot yourself in the foot and guarantee a (huge?) percentage of your dates will never lead to 2nd ones over so small a thing.

I'm curious how some women who consider themselves a feminist feel about the situation (or even the fact that it wasn't brought up as an issue in their discussion).

I'm not particularly interested in being talked out of feminism as an ideology, and not really here to argue about that. 

 

 

*edit* not  important to what I was asking but just for sake of completeness I'll point out that one of them said that if you don't like a guy and don't intend on going a 2nd date with him you should definitely pay for your meal (one thing that was mentioned was in terms of not feeling like you owe him something). 

[Cherylyn]

When my husband and I were dating,  he would often pay for dining out.  While I appreciated him and even though his income had always been higher than mine,  often times, we would either take turns paying the restaurant tab or pay our own way.  Same with entertainment tickets and the like.  We didn't make this a big deal. 

[sff123]

4 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

When my husband and I were dating,  he would often pay for dining out.  While I appreciated him and even though his income had always been higher than mine,  often times, we would either take turns paying the restaurant tab or pay our own way.  Same with entertainment tickets and the like.  We didn't make this a big deal. 

I actually do agree that with income differences it's ok for 1 partner to be paying for another, I just disagree with the gendered aspect of it. Also on a lot of first dates assuming someone's income would be kind of silly 

[Cherylyn]

4 minutes ago, sff123 said:

I actually do kind of agree that with income it's ok for 1 partner to be paying for another, I just disagree with the gendered aspect of it. Also on a lot of first dates assuming someone's income would be kind of silly 

For me or my husband and I,  it wasn't about gender.  For us,  income did matter because he had bigger bills whereas at the time even though my income was lower,  I was living at home with my family with no bills to pay, not even rent.  My only expenses were gas,  car insurance,  clothing and I was able to save the majority of my paychecks.  Nonetheless,  he often paid for dining out but I contributed by taking turns paying for dine out and he often paid for entertainment type tickets.  However, I would often insist upon either paying my own way or taking turns paying in that arena as well.  We tried to make it fair and it worked out very well.  No arguing either.

[Big Stan]

Most women in my experience expect this sort of treatment and they have no problem with double standards in regards to feminism.  Personally I wouldn't date anyone who saw me as a paycheck. 

[sff123]

1 minute ago, Big Stan said:

Most women in my experience expect this sort of treatment and they have no problem with double standards in regards to feminism.  Personally I wouldn't date anyone who saw me as a paycheck. 

I agree that this is a double standard. How they compartmentalized it was interesting. they did seem to think it was normal for a woman to have an equal financial responsibility in the relationship generally , or at least that's what they said. But it came to this particular thing it was almost like a test. They thought a guy wanting to split a check suggested negative things about him. They didn't entertain the idea that it could mean anything else. And they also related it to their self worth in the context of the date, as in they were worth this kind of treatment (never brought up what the guy was worth). 

Again 2 people is a very small sample, but it just surprised me a bit how confident and unreflective they were about this opinion, especially given the generation they come from. I suppose most people aren't that ideological and if even if they are generally feminist, they might take for granted a custom that is beneficial to them. 

[Big Stan]

2 minutes ago, sff123 said:

I agree that this is a double standard. How they compartmentalized it was interesting. they did seem to think it was normal for a woman to have an equal financial responsibility in the relationship generally , or at least that's what they said. But it came to this particular thing it was almost like a test. They thought a guy wanting to split a check suggested negative things about him. They didn't entertain the idea that it could mean anything else. And they also related it to their self worth in the context of the date, as in they were worth this kind of treatment (never brought up what the guy was worth). 

Again 2 people is a very small sample, but it just surprised me a bit how confident and unreflective they were about this opinion, especially given the generation they come from. I suppose most people aren't that ideological and if even if they are generally feminist, they might take for granted a custom that is beneficial to them. 

Which is funny because I see not paying for dates automatically being reflective of my self worth. 

[catfeeder]

I take gender out of the equation, especially in this day and age. If I invite you out, I'm treating, If you invite me out, I'll offer to contribute when the bill comes. I would hope you'd prefer to allow me to reciprocate in the future rather than split the bill on the spot.

One way around all of this is to meet new people for coffee instead of a date to check one another out and learn whether you even WANT a date. This takes the expense out of getting to know someone. From there, decide whether you think enough of them to invite them on a real date. EITHER person can make that ask.

 

[sff123]

7 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

I take gender out of the equation, especially in this day and age. If I invite you out, I'm treating, If you invite me out, I'll offer to contribute when the bill comes. I would hope you'd prefer to allow me to reciprocate in the future rather than split the bill on the spot.

One way around all of this is to meet new people for coffee instead of a date to check one another out and learn whether you even WANT a date. This takes the expense out of getting to know someone. From there, decide whether you think enough of them to invite them on a real date. EITHER person can make that ask.

 

that seems like a good policy. I don't think it should be a trust issue, like if the guy pays for the date and says like "ill get it this time" I don't think he should be overly preoccupied with whether there will be a 2nd date. and the way you put it wouldn't really be gendered if the person asking out is paying. 

In practice this would probably lead to the guy paying a lot because among other gendered features of our society a lot of times the guy is the one asking the girl out. But this whole casual inexactness isn't something im really concerned with. It's just interesting 2 women who I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) are feminist, would so unreflectively consider it a test of a guy's general character whether he pays for the bill or not 

[boltnrun]

17 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Which is funny because I see not paying for dates automatically being reflective of my self worth. 

I dated a guy who got terribly upset when I offered to pay for dinner.  He had been treating me and I thought it wasn't right that he should pay all the time. Even when we shopped at Target or Walmart and I was buying something my child needed he insisted on paying.  So when I offered to pay he acted angry and declined very strongly.  I asked him why that was and he said "I just don't like it".  I asked him if he thought me offering to pay was implying he couldn't afford to buy me dinner and he said yes, he thought I was insulting his manhood (!).  I explained that I just wanted to treat him and that it would make me happy.  He grudgingly accepted but said it would only be that one time.  I tried to get around his feelings by cooking him dinner but then he left me a $100 bill the next morning when he left 😕 

I also don't think just because some women are of a certain generation we can assume they're "feminists".  My ex's niece is in her early 30s so she may not be in that demographic you speak of, but I remember when she was 19 or 20 she told me it was the guy's responsibility to pay for everything.  And that she intended to only be in relationships with men who didn't expect her to have a job.  

I remember one time I was at a bar with some girlfriends and a guy had drinks sent over to our table.  We thanked him politely and invited him to join us at our table.  He sat down and said "so which one of you is going home with me?"  When we said none of us, he got angry and said since we accepted his drinks we owed him sex.  He got up and left when we told him he was full of it.  He then moved to the next table of women and I guess tried the same trick with them.  I wonder if he ever got anyone to go home with him 🙄  Hilarious that he thought $20 worth of drinks entitled him to sex. 

[catfeeder]

10 minutes ago, sff123 said:

It's just interesting 2 women who I assumed (perhaps completely incorrectly) are feminist, would so unreflectively consider it a test of a guy's general character whether he pays for the bill or not 

I understand. It may not exactly be about character, and more a signal of disinterest.

If I invite you out on a first date, but then I accept your contribution toward the bill, that would make me a lousy host to have my guest pay on my invitation.

So it's likely you wouldn't want to date me again after I demo'd such shoddy social skills.

 

[sff123]

8 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I dated a guy who got terribly upset when I offered to pay for dinner.  He had been treating me and I thought it wasn't right that he should pay all the time. Even when we shopped at Target or Walmart and I was buying something my child needed he insisted on paying.  So when I offered to pay he acted angry and declined very strongly.  I asked him why that was and he said "I just don't like it".  I asked him if he thought me offering to pay was implying he couldn't afford to buy me dinner and he said yes, he thought I was insulting his manhood (!).  I explained that I just wanted to treat him and that it would make me happy.  He grudgingly accepted but said it would only be that one time.  I tried to get around his feelings by cooking him dinner but then he left me a $100 bill the next morning when he left 😕 

I also don't think just because some women are of a certain generation we can assume they're "feminists".  My ex's niece is in her early 30s so she may not be in that demographic you speak of, but I remember when she was 19 or 20 she told me it was the guy's responsibility to pay for everything.  And that she intended to only be in relationships with men who didn't expect her to have a job.  

I remember one time I was at a bar with some girlfriends and a guy had drinks sent over to our table.  We thanked him politely and invited him to join us at our table.  He sat down and said "so which one of you is going home with me?"  When we said none of us, he got angry and said since we accepted his drinks we owed him sex.  He got up and left when we told him he was full of it.  He then moved to the next table of women and I guess tried the same trick with them.  I wonder if he ever got anyone to go home with him 🙄  Hilarious that he thought $20 worth of drinks entitled him to sex. 

yeah it's a bit weird because the women in podcast seemed to be indirectly playing into that (not at all suggesting the way men behave is their fault) by at least in their mind making the guy's ability to go a 2nd date with them based off his willingness to pay. at least one of them said that if you don't plan on going on a date with the guy you should offer to pay. the other one might not have been on this page because her big advancement that she described was the fact that she doesn't act fake any more by acting like she's even interested in paying (saying she wouldn't even make a motion to her bag) which, ok but lol if you're thinking about it this much it kind of is fake?

I also saw a video online (that people were suggesting was staged. because the the woman was filming it discreetly in the middle of a date) where the guy acted super condescending to her and was very angry when she said she wanted to pay for his dinner (as you described). He was super controlling the whole time trying to order for her. He even said something like "You will not embarrass me." when it came to the idea of her paying. (again I don't know if this authentic but I bet if it wasn't it was based on real experiences) 

[Big Stan]

6 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I dated a guy who got terribly upset when I offered to pay for dinner.  He had been treating me and I thought it wasn't right that he should pay all the time. Even when we shopped at Target or Walmart and I was buying something my child needed he insisted on paying.  So when I offered to pay he acted angry and declined very strongly.  I asked him why that was and he said "I just don't like it".  I asked him if he thought me offering to pay was implying he couldn't afford to buy me dinner and he said yes, he thought I was insulting his manhood (!).  I explained that I just wanted to treat him and that it would make me happy.  He grudgingly accepted but said it would only be that one time.  I tried to get around his feelings by cooking him dinner but then he left me a $100 bill the next morning when he left 😕 

I also don't think just because some women are of a certain generation we can assume they're "feminists".  My ex's niece is in her early 30s so she may not be in that demographic you speak of, but I remember when she was 19 or 20 she told me it was the guy's responsibility to pay for everything.  And that she intended to only be in relationships with men who didn't expect her to have a job.  

I remember one time I was at a bar with some girlfriends and a guy had drinks sent over to our table.  We thanked him politely and invited him to join us at our table.  He sat down and said "so which one of you is going home with me?"  When we said none of us, he got angry and said since we accepted his drinks we owed him sex.  He got up and left when we told him he was full of it.  He then moved to the next table of women and I guess tried the same trick with them.  I wonder if he ever got anyone to go home with him 🙄  Hilarious that he thought $20 worth of drinks entitled him to sex. 

That's fair there are a lot of guys with their terrible sense of masculinity that any insinuation a woman isn't helpless and totally reliant on big strong him sets them into a shame spiral.  I can't deny that. I think that's an older generation of men though and there aren't many men like that left. 

 

[catfeeder]

5 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I remember when she was 19 or 20 she told me it was the guy's responsibility to pay for everything.  And that she intended to only be in relationships with men who didn't expect her to have a job.

Oh, ghaaad, I used to say the same thing when I was a teenager. I'd been reading too many trashy Sidney Sheldon novels. I decided that dating a rich rock star would be plausible for me.

[sff123]

Just now, catfeeder said:

Oh, ghaaad, I used to say the same thing when I was a teenager. I'd been reading too many trashy Sidney Sheldon novels. I decided that dating a rich rock star would be plausible for me.

haha, that's why I brought up the fact that they were 30 because I had all kinds of crazy, ever evolving ideas when I was younger 

[Batya33]

51 minutes ago, sff123 said:

I actually do agree that with income differences it's ok for 1 partner to be paying for another, I just disagree with the gendered aspect of it. Also on a lot of first dates assuming someone's income would be kind of silly 

I am not a feminist. I believe in equality in the workplace when it comes to equal pay for equal work without regard to gender/race/ethnicity /orientation etc.  I believe that romantic relationships are different from workplace relationships and workplace financial issues.  I am 56 and stopped dating in 2005-ish when I started dating my future husband exclusively.  We'd dated years earlier too. 

When I dated (1978-2005) if a man asked me out on a date (not a first meet) I expected him to pay -the meal, the coffee, whatever.  I was a cheap date lol because I barely drank alcohol -at most one glass of wine and only if he ordered a drink. I paid my way if I didn't want to see him again and even if I did I often offered to leave the tip.  Once we went out a few times I'd offer to pay for part of the date, I'd buy the movie tickets in advance and pay, etc. 

Once we were an item we'd take turns -typically 6 weeks in?.  From around 1994-2005 I had a high paying job.  Prior to that I had a low paying job and/or was a full time student. I didn't need to be taken to fancy places.  Some men wanted to take me to fancy places at times because they wanted to try a fancy restaurant and not by themselves, etc. To me that was their choice. 

[boltnrun]

4 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Oh, ghaaad, I used to say the same thing when I was a teenager. I'd been reading too many trashy Sidney Sheldon novels. I decided that dating a rich rock star would be plausible for me.

She said it when she was 19 or 20 but she still believes it today.   Refuses to get a job and just demands her grandfather pay the rent for her and her boyfriend and give her spending money. She was given everything she wanted as a child and sees no reason for that to change.

 

7 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

That's fair there are a lot of guys with their terrible sense of masculinity that any insinuation a woman isn't helpless and totally reliant on big strong him sets them into a shame spiral.  I can't deny that. I think that's an older generation of men though and there aren't many men like that left. 

One of the many reasons we stopped dating is he found me too "masculine".  As in, I had a job and paid my own bills and didn't call him every time a light bulb needed changing or the tires on my car needed air.  He got upset with me one time because I bought and installed a new battery for my car.  He said I should have let him do it 🙄  The one time I let him do something on my car he did it incorrectly and he had to do it over again 😆 

[Big Stan]

7 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

  He got upset with me one time because I bought and installed a new battery for my car.  He said I should have let him do it 🙄  The one time I let him do something on my car he did it incorrectly and he had to do it over again 😆 

HAHA.  That should have been really embarrassing for him if he was self aware enough to be embarrassed.  After bragging that he had exemplary knowledge of auto repair he worked on your car, screwed it up and then had to fix it.  Although to be fair a lot of that behavior doesn't come from arrogance as it appears to.  

He liked you, and wanted to impress you.  He didn't have the confidence in himself to realize that you liked him too and he didn't have to be impressive for you to be interested.  Most of the dudes doing that stuff aren't doing it because they are jerks but because they want to impress you so you'll stay.

[sff123]

9 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I am not a feminist. I believe in equality in the workplace when it comes to equal pay for equal work without regard to gender/race/ethnicity /orientation etc.  I believe that romantic relationships are different from workplace relationships and workplace financial issues.  I am 56 and stopped dating in 2005-ish when I started dating my future husband exclusively.  We'd dated years earlier too. 

When I dated (1978-2005) if a man asked me out on a date (not a first meet) I expected him to pay -the meal, the coffee, whatever.  I was a cheap date lol because I barely drank alcohol -at most one glass of wine and only if he ordered a drink. I paid my way if I didn't want to see him again and even if I did I often offered to leave the tip.  Once we went out a few times I'd offer to pay for part of the date, I'd buy the movie tickets in advance and pay, etc. 

Once we were an item we'd take turns -typically 6 weeks in?.  From around 1994-2005 I had a high paying job.  Prior to that I had a low paying job and/or was a full time student. I didn't need to be taken to fancy places.  Some men wanted to take me to fancy places at times because they wanted to try a fancy restaurant and not by themselves, etc. To me that was their choice. 

a lot of that sounds like feminism to me but we don't have to debate that. I kind of do think the idea of "he asked me out so he put in me in a situation where I have to pay for something so it makes sense for him to pay" makes a lot more sense than what the other 2 women were saying. Depending how detailed the conversation is when discussing the date it might seem to me more feminist for the woman to be like "Oh I can't go there, I'm trying save money!" or something at least suggesting she's not expecting him to pay by default. Likewise the guy should probably be equally obliged to say something like "hey we could go "x" , is that affordable for you" because it isn't necessarily the woman's responsibility either. But of course I can see how in practice none of this would come off very "smooth" so people might not talk about it when talking to a stranger who they're dating for the first time on a dating ap or something. In my original post I acknowledged there's a pretty strict distinction in what might be best from an ideological standpoint and what's best from a self interest standpoint if you're actually trying to be successful dating. 

[Batya33]

Just now, sff123 said:

a lot of that sounds like feminism to me but we don't have to debate that. I kind of do think the idea of "he asked me out so he put in me in a situation where I have to pay for something so it makes sense for him to pay" makes a lot more sense than what the other 2 women were saying. Depending how detailed the conversation is when discussing the date it might seem to me more feminist for the woman to be like "Oh I can't go there, I'm trying save money!" or something at least suggesting she's not expecting to pay by default. Likewise the guy should probably be equally obliged to say something like "hey we could go "x" , is that affordable for you" because it isn't necessarily the woman's responsibility either. But of course I can see how in practice none of this would come off very "smooth" so people might not talk about it when talking to a stranger who they're dating for the first time on a dating ap or something. In my original post I acknowledged there's a pretty strict distinction in what might be best from an ideological standpoint and what's best from a self interest standpoint if you're actually trying to be successful dating. 

That was a lot of words.  I never labeled myself a feminist in part because the definition was ever changing. 

For example for awhile it seemed like feminists looked down on women who wanted to be SAHM as I did -and as my future husband wanted me to be (I was a full time parent for 7 years and during that time insisted on contributing to household expenses out of my savings).  I believe people who become parents should make the personal and individual choice as to whether one parent will be at home full time or not, or whatever childcare arrangement works.  

To me equal pay for equal work regardless of what I wrote above (not just gender) doesn't make me a feminist.  

To me first meets were not dates.  I avoided meeting for dinner on a first meet. Sometimes lunch during the workday but nothing $$$.  For first meets -especially since I often suggested first meets - I offered to split the check or I mean if it was coffee and I was ahead of him in line I'd treat.  No biggie-it wasn't a date.  

I didn't want free dinners -I strongly preferred eating on my own as opposed to being with someone where we weren't clicking.  Many men insisted on paying.

[Big Stan]

Just now, sff123 said:

Depending how detailed the conversation is when discussing the date it might seem to me more feminist for the woman to be like "Oh I can't go there, I'm trying save money!" or something at least suggesting she's not expecting to pay by default. Likewise the guy should probably be equally obliged to say something like "hey we could go "x" , is that affordable for you" because it isn't necessarily the woman's responsibility either

Totally okay with the man paying in this situation.  I've had women do that where they make it clear that they do not want to pay for that place.  That IS a woman acknowledging that they expect to pay for themselves meaning she isn't interested in your money.  I like to treat even friends, I consider myself generous with my money and my things but I don't like the PRESUMPTION that I would pay like it's my obligation or role or something. 

[reinventmyself]

I don't split checks in romantic relationships.  That's something I do with my friends, not my boyfriend.  My boyfriend treats me to dinner.  In return I do the same for him.  If it's my idea, I pay and vice versa.

[boltnrun]

2 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

HAHA.  That should have been really embarrassing for him if he was self aware enough to be embarrassed.  After bragging that he had exemplary knowledge of auto repair he worked on your car, screwed it up and then had to fix it.  Although to be fair a lot of that behavior doesn't come from arrogance as it appears to.  

He liked you, and wanted to impress you.  He didn't have the confidence in himself to realize that you liked him too and he didn't have to be impressive for you to be interested.  Most of the dudes doing that stuff aren't doing it because they are jerks but because they want to impress you so you'll stay.

Unfortunately, for him it was all about his ego.  He felt women are weak and helpless and need men in their lives or they would not be able to survive.  That's why he told me I was "too masculine" and "like a man" because I didn't need him to survive.  Instead of thinking it was nice that I could install my own car battery he found it unattractive.  He also actually said he liked women for sex and household chores but other than that he preferred to hang out with his buddies. He exclusively complimented me on my body and my cooking skills but never for intelligence or self-sufficiency.  One time he brought his dirty laundry over and expected me to do it for him.  I'll never forget, he said "most girls want to do my laundry for me".  And I said "good for them, maybe you can take it to one of those 'girls' then."

Trust me, I unfortunately got to know this guy very well and he was the worst of toxic "masculinity".  

Anyway, this topic isn't about me or the doofus I used to date.  I'm happy to split the bill if I'm out with a man.  Same for going out with friends.  I only allow myself to be treated if it's Mother's Day or my birthday.  But I'm not in my early 30s, obviously 😆

[Big Stan]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

 

To me first meets were not dates.  I avoided meeting for dinner on a first meet. Sometimes lunch during the workday but nothing $$$.  For first meets -especially since I often suggested first meets - I offered to split the check or I mean if it was coffee and I was ahead of him in line I'd treat.  No biggie-it wasn't a date.  

I didn't want free dinners -I strongly preferred eating on my own as opposed to being with someone where we weren't clicking.  Many men insisted on paying.

Keeping it casual like that is smart.  It's good advice to give other people still in the dating world.  Meeting for something low key like coffee or lunch takes the pressure or the obligation off the meet. Both parties can really feel each other out without having to feel like they are putting on an act. 

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, Big Stan said:

Keeping it casual like that is smart.  It's good advice to give other people still in the dating world.  Meeting for something low key like coffee or lunch takes the pressure or the obligation off the meet. Both parties can really feel each other out without having to feel like they are putting on an act. 

Yes and I never related to people thinking first meets were dates.  I'd never met the person so he was suggesting we meet to see if we should go on a date in the future.  I met over 100 men in person through dating sites. Typically we met for coffee.  Sometimes for walks -one time there was an art installation in the local park so we met there,etc. 

I also know of 3 women -daughters of my friends -ages 26-35 who would not consider themselves feminists.  One is in the dating world, the other two are married with kids.

Also my preference was not to split the check especially if we were doing two things -like a meal, then a walk, then dessert, meal and a movie. 

Once on a third date we arranged a movie first then dinner. I said I'd order the tickets.  He didn't offer to pay - which is fine it was my treat.  We sit down and I ask him if he wants anything at the counter as I'm going to get popcorn, etc.  He asks me -without a "please" for a bottle of water and no he wants no snacks.  I get him a water.  There was no "thanks".  Then he helped himself  to the popcorn all during the movie lol. 

He never offered to give me $ for snacks and I was fine sharing the popcorn -not fine that he assumed it was ok. Not fine for the no please or thank you.  At dinner I didn't offer to pay.  It was an inexpensive dinner.  I didn't like his lack of manners.