My brother is hovering around me like a Mother Hen

[Tinydance]

Do you actually have to reply to his E-mails though? For example, if he sends five E-mails, just reply to one. And don't say much, just keep it polite and brief. Also I'm a bit confused, if you haven't seen your family in 25 years then why are you so worried what they would think if you had a fight with your brother? Also if you're talking by E-mail then you could always show the E-mails to prove that he was the one harassing you and bossing you around.

[trojan]

5 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Do you actually have to reply to his E-mails though? For example, if he sends five E-mails, just reply to one. And don't say much, just keep it polite and brief. Also I'm a bit confused, if you haven't seen your family in 25 years then why are you so worried what they would think if you had a fight with your brother? Also if you're talking by E-mail then you could always show the E-mails to prove that he was the one harassing you and bossing you around.

 

He's something of a control freak. Also, I noted that my brother is the only one I actually have contact with. He has a hair trigger and if I lose him, I will not have contact with anyone. It is not because I have severed ties with the others, it's just that none of us care anymore. After 25 years, I'm sort of ghost. there is no reason to 'prove' anything...no one to prove it to. I don't really contact anyone else except my (our) mother. If i get in a fight with my brother I won't have any contact with anyone at all.

 

[trojan]

8 hours ago, Jaunty said:

.   I notice that you keep mentioning how he lives with his "mommy."  In essence, you're doing exactly what he does to you:  put a negative value judgement on how he's chosen to live his life.  

 

yes, this is pretty immature and infantile of me

[catfeeder]

43 minutes ago, trojan said:

Because if you live as I do, you have to have a contact in the world somewhere, even if I keep it in my back pocket and never use it. I live out on the fringe of society and sometimes need a tiny reassurance that someone (might) be there if I need them. Pretty selfish and self-centered, I know.

I don't think it's selfish or self-centered, I think it's human. So okay, when you get a message from your brother, read it when you are ready, but then consider stepping away to process it.

If he triggers a reaction, spend as much time as you need to work through that during the rest of your day. Maybe compose something impulsively in a Notepad app instead of inside your email app, and save it for editing later. Or, don't even re-read it, but instead, use your best discretion to compose a reply that you can feel proud of for it's kindness and restrained protection of your privacy.

Head high, you can do this.

[1a1a]

Information diet time. 
 

Ram Dass says ‘you think you are enlightened? Try spending two weeks with your family’ *grimace grin*

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, trojan said:

 If i get in a fight with my brother I won't have any contact with anyone at all.

Every time you're tempted to over share with him, think of your Miranda Rights: "You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you "

That could help you prevent over sharing. 

[Batya33]

6 hours ago, trojan said:

Because if you live as I do, you have to have a contact in the world somewhere, even if I keep it in my back pocket and never use it. I live out on the fringe of society and sometimes need a tiny reassurance that someone (might) be there if I need them. Pretty selfish and self-centered, I know.

Yes so you accept the downsides then -you choose to enter the lion's den because you benefit from the tiny reassurance with the downside that he hovers over you like a mother hen and it gives you agita, frustration and worse.  If you live as you do and as you do doesn't work for you what plans do you have to make changes so you're not tempted to seek reassurance from your brother?

[trojan]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Yes so you accept the downsides then -you  If you live as you do and as you do doesn't work for you what plans do you have to make changes so you're not tempted to seek reassurance from your brother?

I have no plans for that at all. I won't make any changes at all. All of them are a bunch of control freaks and that is why I don't go there for 25 years. But in some small way, I still have to seek validation or I will be cut off from all social contact with the family. That's just part of the deal. It has been that way from the start when I ran away from home at 18. I mitigate it as much as possible by only calling twice a year and having all the say-so as to when I will call by never giving them my phone number. The last time I was there 25 years ago my brother was the only one nice to me at all, so he is the one I can contact. Actually, I only call him once a year. he is always in a bad mood! I call our mother two times a year, once on Mother's day (And that day I usually don't call grumpy brother) Then two weeks before I take off on my adventure I call both. It takes me a full two weeks to recover from the conversation and get my mind on what needs to be done for the travels. So, it is like going to the dentist, a necessary evil but I do it once or twice a year. I have to seek reassurance from him, but only once a year. And often it is years in between the times I have to validate myself, not every time. And so that is why it takes me by surprise, because it might be years in between when i have to do it, and i forget it is a part of our relationship. This was a time, but it might be five years before I have to 'cow-tow' again to keep in good graces with the family. I just suck up and do it every few years. "You should quit this nonsense and get a regular job like me!" He email yelled. "You're right I should," I answer, "I'll look into it right away when I get back to civilization," I add.

[Batya33]

If you feel you have to seek reassurance from him then you have to accept the downsides of your choice. It’s really that basic and I can’t relate to the title of your post. You’re deciding you have to. That’s on you. He’s just being who he is and you’re willing to tolerate it based on your opinion that you have to seek reassurance. 

[trojan]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

If you feel you have to seek reassurance from him then you have to accept the downsides of your choice. It’s really that basic and I can’t relate to the title of your post. You’re deciding you have to. That’s on you. He’s just being who he is and you’re willing to tolerate it based on your opinion that you have to seek reassurance. 

Yes to all of the above. I have to 'cow-tow' sometimes. I can't call him once a year and tell him to get lost. I accept the downsides. What part of the title don't you relate to? I am a selfish guy, not generous and giving of myself. I am only for me. I do what I want when I want. I have no soul mate. And so if I want any contact at all, I have to 'cow-tow' every few years for a few minutes on the phone. It doesn't happen every time. It can go years between the times he goes off on these tirades about being responsible. Not every time. On my 65th birthday was one of those times. He was battering me with a string of emails because I accidentally told him I am doing pretty well working on Amazon while I am down here in the Jungle and thinking this might replace my seasonal job. He is a workaholic and can't stand not having a job to go to. I hate having a job to go to and could happily sit here in front of this keyboard working. Anyway, he went off the deep end about not quitting my job. He totally doesn't believe Amazon is a real job. You are right: I have to tolerate it. I wrote five nasty responses, telling him where to go, but somehow bit my tongue and deleted them before I got myself in trouble and never talked to anyone in the family ever again because of one quick self-serving email where I would tell him off and then never hear from anyone again.

[Batya33]

You can call and avoid sharing personal stuff but you say you need reassurance. That’s what I was responding to. 

[boltnrun]

Do his screaming emails prove to you that he cares? Is that why you crave them?

[trojan]

12 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Do his screaming emails prove to you that he cares? Is that why you crave them?

 

 

 

When did I say I crave them? I never said anything like that. I said it's like going to the dentist. I don't 'crave' going to the dentist, and yet I continue to go once a year. Where did you get 'crave'? I got on here to complain about it. Now you say I 'crave' it. I don't seek it at all but try to keep it at a minimum. I only call him once a year, and my mother twice a year, so that I still exist in their minds. Should I just drop all contact because he is a grumpy, controlling person sometimes? What are you suggesting? Never contact again because he sent a screaming email?

[trojan]

11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

You can call and avoid sharing personal stuff but you say you need reassurance. That’s what I was responding to. 

 

You don't need any reassurance? Apparently, nobody on this needs any reassurance at all. Is everybody here so self-sufficient they need no validation at all? I just put up with his weird ways every few years to keep in good graces. He is sort of the 'Godfather' in the Family, you might say. He makes all the major decisions for everybody, including wills, business, taking care of the deceased, etc. I do none of this. And so he is used to making decisions for people there. I try not to share too much personal stuff, but it is sort of difficult to refrain from telling what continent I am traveling to. 

[boltnrun]

10 minutes ago, trojan said:

When did I say I crave them? I never said anything like that. I said it's like going to the dentist. I don't 'crave' going to the dentist, and yet I continue to go once a year. Where did you get 'crave'? I got on here to complain about it. Now you say I 'crave' it. I don't seek it at all but try to keep it at a minimum. I only call him once a year, and my mother twice a year, so that I still exist in their minds. Should I just drop all contact because he is a grumpy, controlling person sometimes? What are you suggesting? Never contact again because he sent a screaming email?

You said you remain in contact because you need "reassurance" from him. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, trojan said:

You don't need any reassurance? Apparently, nobody on this needs any reassurance at all. Is everybody here so self-sufficient they need no validation at all? I just put up with his weird ways every few years to keep in good graces. He is sort of the 'Godfather' in the Family, you might say. He makes all the major decisions for everybody, including wills, business, taking care of the deceased, etc. I do none of this. And so he is used to making decisions for people there. I try not to share too much personal stuff, but it is sort of difficult to refrain from telling what continent I am traveling to. 

Not sure where you got that from.  I don't need reassurance ever from people who treat me rudely.  Have I ever sought it? Yes, by mistake. Then I own that mistake and try not to repeat it.  I shared a personal parenting opinion a few weeks ago with someone and it was a mistake because I forgot how annoying she can be in those instances.  So now I know not to share that sort of information with her again. I suggest keeping up limited contact and not sharing personal stuff.  Don't try -do it.  You can inform him what continent you are traveling to.  And since you're so prolific in expressing yourself here I think you know full well where to draw the line.  Good luck!

[catfeeder]

4 hours ago, trojan said:

I call our mother two times a year, once on Mother's day

Hi Trojan. How do your convo's go with your mother? Do you have any email or postal contact with her?

@Cherylyn promotes the fine art of postal mail to great success, and I agree with her. It allows you full control over your interaction--then DONE. You can keep it sweet without over-disclosure.

Also, I see a huge amount of distance on a scale of 1 to 10 between a 1, no family contact at all, and a 10, going completely anxietal (made up word) over intrusiveness.

So there's plenty of room to find a balance on this scale between 4 and 6.

Use your well earned discretion and stay there. If you catastophize your experiences, you'll only play into your own worst case scenarios. So skip those. Draw on your best life-manager skills, tap into your highest intelligence, play the 'observer' role--whatever, reach for any tool that works. Navigate these contacts in ways that make you proud of your OWN behavior, regardless of how anyone else behaves on the other side of the world.

I have to sympathize, I love my elderly parents of 94 and 83, but navigating 'the fLOw' with them is a challenge. I consider them to be politically and racially ignorant, impervious to new learning, manipulative with a feigned dependence on me for anything technical, and otherwise frustratingly set in their ways. Yet we find one tiny molecule of common ground when I can employ humor rather than defensiveness, and I keep us in that sweet spot by failing to acknowledge anything they say outside of that scope. I just go deaf, forgetful or stupid--they get to pick--even while I remain cheerful.

Write more if it helps, and stay proud.

[Cherylyn]

Your brother is intrusive because you allow it by divulging and disclosing too much information about yourself to him.  You need to be boring as heck.  For example, talk about the weather at best.  You get the general idea.

Don't continue to reveal your travels to him.  Remain mum otherwise he will sense you are boastful and then you will hear what you don't want to hear from him.  Be careful by treading lightly.  If you have to walk on eggshells with some people, that's what you have to do in order to keep a volatile relationship at least peaceful.

In your mind, when you say he still hasn't left mommy's house, you will have the propensity to leak an accidental comment to him so remove certain wording from your brain.  Don't care that he still lives at home.  The less you care, the more careful you will be whenever you communicate with him.

Stop sharing your job, adventures, travels and finances with him.  It's none of his business.  That's your personal business.

My brother doesn't travel but I don't criticize him for it.  I let it go.  It's his life and I respect how he lives it even if I don't agree with either how he is or how he lives sometimes.  We don't interfere with each other yet we're polite toward one another.  We're not chummy but we're well mannered and respectful.  It's the best we can do.  We don't get into each others business.  Everyone stays in their own lane. 

Ignore his emails.  You don't have to read them.  If you read them, do not reply.  Learn to ignore.  Don't add fuel to the fire.  If you decide to reply, don't engage in a heated argument.  Be brief and kind in a calculated way.  Don't comment defensively otherwise an unnecessary fight will ensue.  Remain generic and nice for your own safety and protection.  Be smart.

My sister called me a liar.  I've never replied to her text.  Never.  In her case, she knew she put herself in a dilemma.  She arranged a restaurant rendezvous with my local in-laws and us (husband / sons) yet was in non-attendance at the last minute.  She felt intimidated because she was caught in the act and left a trail of evidence.  After months, she invited my in-laws and us to her holiday party last year which we all declined.  I have power in the sibling relationship.  My silence is power and requires no effort.  You ought to try the silent route.  If you want power, be intelligent. 

In my case,  if I must contact my sister regarding an urgent family matter, for example about our mother,  I would cease text, messages and emails altogether.  At best, I would leave a polite, non-personal, almost businesslike voicemail and prefer an appointment for a brief, polite verbal phone conversation.  It's less risky going this route and the outcome is less dicey.  Since there hasn't been any emergency, we're in no contact mode.  Postal mail is safe as long as it's polite, well mannered, respectful, non-personal and brief.  I've had 100% success with postal mail as long as I'm shrewd and smart about it.

Don't tell him to quit hovering.  You can't control him but you can control yourself.  Make yourself less available and quit sharing information with him about your life.  Keep any and all brief communication boring without information about yourself.  Don't tell him where to go.  Many people have hair triggers so be careful.  He's not of sound mind.  He's miserable.  Smoking and living with his mother caused him to go mentally crazy.  In your heart, have compassion yet maintain a cool, frosty distance.  I've done this with some people and it works.  It's all on you to control the dynamic so it's peaceful.  It won't be idyllic, optimal nor ideal but keep the peace because it's the best you can do. 

Don't offer unsolicited advice regarding his quitting smoking.  My late alcoholic father was a smoker and it infuriated him whenever my mother or I suggested that he quit smoking and drinking.  Smokers and alcoholics snap in a very angry, harsh way.  They're addicted and crave nicotine and alcohol otherwise they become very irritable, easily agitated and belligerent.  Smokers are easily irritated so don't be the hair trigger for him.  You're competing with addictive nicotine and chemicals and you will lose every time.  It's his life, his body and his health or lack thereof.  He's responsible for himself.  There's nothing you can do.  Don't tell him to go on some adventure other than Mommy's house for lunch.  Again, you continue to instigate, provoke and incite so stop it.  Keep your opinions and comments to yourself otherwise be prepared for ugly, nasty backlash which is human nature.

Don't tell him about your job, jobs, switching jobs.  He is miserable with his lot in life and whenever he is informed about your life, he becomes enraged with jealousy and insecurity.  Stop wounding him.  Don't open a hornet's nest.  Be humble.  Say less, write less.  Learn how to protect yourself.  Either be boring, silent or both.  Become a grey rock.  Be as exciting as a grey rock. 

Alter and change your dynamic with him.  Don't lecture.  Just do.  You're the one who has to readjust your behavior and change your tack and tactic.  Become shrewd.  Practice good diplomacy in your favor. 

Thank you @catfeeder Postal mail is a safe route.  It's one way and be done with it.  There is a way to be gracious with brief postal mail to keep the rapport open yet enforce healthy boundaries for yourself.  I use old-fashioned postal mail all the time with people who don't behave with predictable kindness and grace.  Postal mail works great.  🙂 This is for birthdays, Mother's Day, graduations, anniversaries, thank you notes, condolences, Christmas cards, etc.  It's always nice and brief without getting personal.  It's a great way to be careful and peaceful.  Too much familiarity breeds contempt.   Postal mail doesn't allow the other party to reply immediately such as with text, email, messages, voicemails, etc.  Phone conversations can be risky if you know what the other person is capable of.  Postal mail is successful if you do it right.   

If you want access to your mother via your brother, I'd send him an annual postal birthday card.  There is a way to be nice without inserting your personal opinions, news about your life, comments and the like.  For example, "Dear _______ and sign off with Your Sister, _______."  (Or, "Love,"  "Sincerely" or use your discretion.)  Let the card speak for itself without being syrupy sweet and sappy.  Same with a Christmas card to your brother, mother or any occasion as you see fit.  This is practicing good diplomacy.  You're well mannered, gracious and respectful without getting chummy.  Never have a personal relationship!  Don't share information regarding your life and refrain from inserting your strong opinions, criticisms, comments or judgements.  Play it safe!  Exercise discretion.  Keep the peace by being a peaceful person.  Many times, with difficult people in your life, you have to treat them politely with respectful boundaries as if they're an acquaintance.  This type of relationship is successful because you will have full control of the dynamic. 

 

[Cherylyn]

I agree with @catfeeder.  With some people, you have to "play dumb" in order for the relationship to work even if it's already hanging by the threads.  It's a fine art and science but with practice, you will become adept with this newfound skill.  "Play dumb" means remaining brief, superficial, well mannered, polite, boring, don't share anything regarding your life, be respectful, non-personal, never insert your strong nor controversial opinions or comments and remember:  no more, no less. 

[boltnrun]

My brother doesn't "hover" but he sure likes to give me bad advice😆 I mentioned how all the rain we've been getting has cut down on my ability to go on walks after work and he keeps advising me to do "burpees" in my apartment. Knowing full well I have medical conditions that prevent me from doing "burpees". But I know he's trying to be helpful. His attempts to give advice are more annoying or amusing than anything else.

But it's my fault for telling him things. I too need to learn to edit and censor myself. 

[Cherylyn]

4 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

But it's my fault for telling him things. I too need to learn to edit and censor myself. 

^  ^  ^  ^  This @boltnrun.  Live and learn indeed.

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, trojan said:

 He makes all the major decisions for everybody, including wills, business, taking care of the deceased, etc. 

Is he the executor of your parents will? Does he have power of attorney? If so, is he managing this in their best interest? Have you spoken to your mother recently?

[trojan]

20 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Hi Trojan. How do your convo's go with your mother? Do you have any email or postal contact with her? I consider them to be politically and racially ignorant, impervious to new learning, manipulative with a feigned dependence on me for anything technical, and otherwise frustratingly set in their ways. Yet we find one tiny molecule of common ground when I can employ humor rather than defensiveness,

 

 

I used to write my mother, but I am not sure she actually cares anymore. She does not know how to use email. It's sort of gotten so awful there I almost don't want to communicate at all.

I have to walk on pins and needles, never knowing what would set them off. I told my brother I am working online, and he flew off the handle about it. He refuses to understand that Amazon is a real thing and that I can work on it wherever I end up. Also, my job where I work is a physically demanding job, and the next guy down is 30 years old and then they are 25 and 22 years old. I am working with 25 year old guys and I am 65, and for sure I am the next one to be phased out! I watched a youtube about it, and it said if you see you are being phased out due to ageism, don't bother waiting around to see how it plays out. Find something else.

My brother has an easy job working for his mother, so I doubt he will be phased out. And yet when I show him the profits I made on Amazon, he got all fussy and said to do what the boss says and get along with him. He has no frame of reference in real-world jobs. For sure, this summer or next I will get the axe and the best of the younger guys will take my position. The writing is on the wall, don't hang around until my job is sweeping up the floor. Make a new occupation.

My brother insisting Amazon is a scam has nothing to do with reality. He emailed me 5 times on my 65th birthday to tell me all these weird made-up things and that somehow I am failing because I won't get along with the boss and wasting my time learning Amazon. My only failing is turning 65 and still trying to be on the clock in a younger man's occupation. How long does he think my boss will keep me in a job more suited for someone that is 25? Keep me on until I am 70? I have to start putting something else together.

[trojan]

20 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

He's not of sound mind.  He's miserable.  Smoking and living with his mother caused him to go mentally crazy.  In your heart, have compassion yet maintain a cool, frosty distance.  I've done this with some people and it works.  It's all on you to control the dynamic so it's peaceful.  It won't be idyllic, optimal nor ideal but keep the peace because it's the best you can do. 

 

Yes, he has gone a little crazy. He has all the responsibility and has had it all his life. He keeps allowing himself to be trapped in these situations. I'm sure he envies my free-spirit life because he tells people all the places I visited and all the weird wilderness jobs I have had. He will explain all about to me to people we both knew years ago from when we were kids. But he has trapped himself there and has to do what he has to do. The older people 'enabled' a part of him they recognized in him right from the very start... that he would stay at home and take care of everything if they paved the way and made it the path of least resistance for him. It was the easiest way to go if he just stayed with them and ran the business. And I am sure the stipulation was that he doesn't go traveling or have any babies or anything and they will make sure everything goes ok there for him.

The last time I was there and visited them, twenty-five years ago, I found out that the plan was to keep me there to do chores around the place for the rest of my life. They set up a room in the basement for me with a TV and did everything they could to keep me there, paving the way, making it the path of least resistance, guilt-tripping me, and even blocking my airplane ticket home. It wasn't because they loved me and missed me; it was because I was going to be a source of free labor. They said that is enough of playing around and that it is time for me to learn how to work. When I finally escaped, I never looked back!

The 5 emails from my brother, in rapid-fire order, were pointing out how working online for Amazon is a scam and pointless. I made the mistake of 'cutting and pasting' my profit results from my Amazon royalties, trying to prove to him that it actually works and I actually make money,  and he got even madder because I showed him that it was actually working.

Before, I used to only talk about the most boring stuff, mostly because they do not know at all why I would want to trek around in dirty third-world countries. But then, in the last couple of years, it seemed they both wanted to know a little more in-depth about what experiences I have over there and why in the world I would keep doing it all the time. And so for some reason, I thought they actually cared or something, but that was not the case. It snowballed into this thing where they freak out and panic. Like riding a bike across India. Well, they completely melted down! They were so frantic and drastic that they freaked me out too, and I left the packaged-up touring bicycle in a heap in the middle of my primitive hut and went to Asia without the bike. Well, the next year I was determined to not let that happen again. I didn't call them for a whole year. I called them from the airport when the bike was already in the hold of the Airplane. I rode my bike across India for six months when I was well into my sixties!

The same thing, I somehow should not have said anything about working on Amazon. But why shouldn't I? It seems like a perfectly normal thing to tell somebody. I tell lots of people about it, actually; it is my main topic of conversation even with random strangers. My mother thinks it is pretty cool, but she doesn't know what it is, she doesn't use computers. My brother rapidly fired me 5 long emails about how unrealistic that is.

What I will try from now on is just talk about the weather, which is what I did for the first 40 years.

[catfeeder]

2 hours ago, trojan said:

I used to write my mother, but I am not sure she actually cares anymore. She does not know how to use email. It's sort of gotten so awful there I almost don't want to communicate at all.

Well, you can bypass all the awfulness just by sending a card now and then. You can choose nice messages and write something kind, then sign your name, and Boom! Done. No hassle, no fat, no bones, no waste or funny taste. 🙂

Quote

I have to walk on pins and needles, never knowing what would set them off. I told my brother...

Wul? Stop telling. Sending a card with nice sentiments requires no eggshell walk and does not infringe. on your privacy.

You are the gatekeeper of your information, so stop informing them. Say you're great and happy and you're sending them loving thoughts. 

Skip the phone calls, keep to signing your name on nice messages, and you are in full control. No need to build a 'case' to convince anyone of ANYthing.

Head high.