My brother is hovering around me like a Mother Hen

[Cherylyn]

Regarding your mother,  since you sense she doesn't care anymore,  send postal mail (snail mail) for her birthday and Christmas.  Practice good diplomacy without pretense.   It's unnecessary to write letters.  I'm this way.  I send postal mail greeting cards to various people in my life for special occasions without a long winded note.  I'll write a few kind words and then it's sent.  It's one way and I'm done.  It works. 

I know what you're referring to regarding your walk on pins and needles due to hair triggers.  This is the story of my life in my midst.  You do what you have to do.  Stop expecting your brother to understand you,  your job,  your adventures,  travels or whatever you do in your life.  This is your problem.  You expect too much in him (or others).  Lower your expectations of him (and others) to nil and you will no longer feel disappointed or hurt.  It's commendable what you do at age 65 but others don't see it the way you do including your brother so stop informing him,  stop trying to impress him or any of that because it doesn't work.  Some people such as your brother will never be morally supportive of whatever you do regardless of what it is.  This is how human nature is so grow accustomed to it.  You are the one who continues feeding the dialogue so it should stop with you if you do not like negative and harsh responses.  This is not distinct to your brother.  Many people are this way.

Your brother's life is his life even though you don't agree with his path and choices.  Your main "job" is to remain peaceful and how you go about this rides on you.  You have no control over how other people behave,  how they act or their track record with you.  The only control you have is your behavior and how you navigate it for the most peaceful rapport.  All changes are with you and no one else.  This is how you mold the new dynamic to your favor.  I do it all the time in my life with all sorts of complicated, difficult characters. 

Be civil,  peaceful,  gracious,  well mannered,  respectful,  considerate and kind yet maintain a cool, safe distance.  It works wonders.  You ought to try it.  Do this with a lot of people in your life because it works! 

Don't share your Amazon profits because you are perceived as boastful and why do you make yourself vulnerable for the type of negative responses which are unpleasant for you?   If you don't want a negative relationship with your brother or anyone for that matter,  watch what you say.  Be careful and it's best to remain mum.  Keep your mouth shut.  Don't write it either.  Same thing.

If you don't want your brother (or anyone) criticizing you,  stop adding fuel to the fire.  Keep quiet. 

Talking or writing about boring stuff means not sharing your life with your brother or anyone who will give you negative responses based upon your negative experiences with them.   Boring stuff is about superficial chat or writings such as the weather, 'hello,' 'have a good day' and nothing more.  Don't talk or write about your adventures,  experiences,  travels or whatever you do.  Remain a private person unless you wish to make yourself vulnerable to verbal or written attack.  Be smart.  Don't divulge nor disclose your personal and private life.  Enforce common sense boundaries. 

Why shouldn't you talk about your job at Amazon to your brother?   Because of ugly backlash.  That's why.  Know our audience.  If you know people will compliment you with kind words and if they're secure enough to afford to be nice to you, then share your life with them at your discretion.  If you know your brother or other people who will say something snide to you,  then back off and refrain from saying or writing what you shouldn't for fear of nasty comments,  verbal,  written or both.  This is how it is in society.  You ought to know by now. 

Talking or writing about the weather or other boring and SAFE topics  infrequently  is the most prudent strategy for you.  If it has worked for 40 years,  continue doing it.  If it isn't broken,  don't try to fix it. 

 

 

[trojan]

16 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

Don't share your Amazon profits because you are perceived as boastful and why do you make yourself vulnerable for the type of negative responses which are unpleasant for you?

Yes, it was because he kept saying it doesn't actually work, and I felt I needed to prove to him Amazon does work. And yes, I often tell about my adventures to brag about them. But this is what I always talk about to other travelers I meet. We talk about what we do at home and what adventures we have been on. And yes, I just have to stop doing it with Brother. He will just never understand and he will forever be a grumpy difficult person and I have to learn to not take the conversation in certain directions. He is well known there for being a grumpy, difficult person. But the one or two phone calls a year are necessary, I can't explain why.

[Cherylyn]

30 minutes ago, trojan said:

Yes, it was because he kept saying it doesn't actually work, and I felt I needed to prove to him Amazon does work. And yes, I often tell about my adventures to brag about them. But this is what I always talk about to other travelers I meet. We talk about what we do at home and what adventures we have been on. And yes, I just have to stop doing it with Brother. He will just never understand and he will forever be a grumpy difficult person and I have to learn to not take the conversation in certain directions. He is well known there for being a grumpy, difficult person. But the one or two phone calls a year are necessary, I can't explain why.

Always know whom you're dealing with which means know your audience.  You have to alter your behavior if you want a peaceful relationship with your brother and this applies to anyone in your life.  You know which people in your life who are kind and morally supportive of you so you feel safe to share your information with them whereas your brother and other people in society will give you snide remarks should you share information with them at your own risk. 

I'm glad you agree to stop sharing information with your brother.  He will never understand and he'll always be grumpy and difficult reminiscent of a lot of people in this world.  Yes, most definitely, navigate your conversations wisely for your own protection.  This is how people survive relationships.  Be careful and smart.  It starts with you.

[Jaunty]

On 3/14/2023 at 6:59 AM, trojan said:

 What part of the title don't you relate to?

He's not hovering around you like a mother hen if you only speak to him 2 x per year.

Do you not have any friends?  You're not alone in having a fairly toxic family dynamic that requires very firm boundaries.   I understand about that, and your decision not to cut them off entirely.  But it seems like a huge conflict to be reaching out because you want validation from the contacts when you know very well that you will not be receiving validation.   You could be getting that from other people in your life.  Lots of us have chosen "families" in various ways.

 

[trojan]

19 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

He's not hovering around you like a mother hen if you only speak to him 2 x per year.

Do you not have any friends?  You're not alone in having a fairly toxic family dynamic that requires very firm boundaries.   I understand about that, and your decision not to cut them off entirely.  But it seems like a huge conflict to be reaching out because you want validation from the contacts when you know very well that you will not be receiving validation.   You could be getting that from other people in your life.  Lots of us have chosen "families" in various ways.

 

 

You sure twisted that all around. Do you just get on this forum to harass people?

[Jaunty]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:30 PM, trojan said:

You sure twisted that all around. Do you just get on this forum to harass people?

In what way did I twist it around?  Or harass anyone?

Seriously:  If you speak 2 X per year, "hovering" is not happening.  And if you want validation, but instead get conflict and end up angry, why would you continue to return there in search of validation?  That is what friends are for.   

You're not the only person who doesn't get their emotional needs met by anyone in their family of origen.

[Jaunty]

53 minutes ago, trojan said:

The whole thread had nothing to do with validation from my brother. That was a tiny percentage of it. The whole thing was about him muddling into my life. He spent the first 25 years after high school living with his grandmother, and then he moved in with his mother. And now he, for some weird reason thinks I should live this way too. He has done the same monotonous job for 50 years, and now he suddenly thinks I should do this too. Twice, or even once a year I have to call home, just so that I exist to them. I have to be doing something sensible with my life in my brother's eyes. I have to justify myself or I will no longer exist there. You picked up on ONLY that one tiny aspect-that I have to validate myself-and act as if that is the only issue here when it is .001% of the issue, I looked at your history. You do it with everyone. you nitpick the smallest most difficult 1% of the problem and run it into the ground. you do this with everything you answer. I wrote here on enotalone because it freaked me out that my brother emailed me five times on my 65th birthday with a battering ram of ridiculous emails. he tried to prove he has a better grasp on the world by doing the exact same job driving in a circle and being home at 4:30 each and every afternoon with grandma for all his adult life, and for some reason, thinks everybody needs to do this. Somehow you picked up on the teensy detail that I have to placate my brother during a yearly 5 minute phone call and think, or at least tell me that is my sole motivation in life. I have to placate and seek validation in that 5-minute phone call or I will become a ghost from their past. I will no longer exist for them.

I looked through your history. This is what you do to everybody.

Whoa.  Slow your roll, buddy.  You seem to have a bit of a problem with reality.  

Your "yearly 5 minute phone call" (or perhaps it's two per year)  where you "seek validation" doesn't appear to be your "sole motivation in life" and I certainly didn't imply that it is.  

I simply noted that your bro cannot "hover like a mother hen" over you when your interactions take up only 5 - 10 minutes out of an available 525,600  minutes per year.  

You do seem very obsessed with your brother and varying aspects of how he chooses to live his life, and apparently he spends his own energy minding your business in just the same way.  A family trait, as it were.

Since it seems to be working out well for you both,  my advice is to just carry on.  You're obviously getting some needs met this way and ... it's only 10 minutes a year.  So enjoy!

 

[Cherylyn]

I'm not particularly close to my brother so I'm careful with whatever I say and text to him.  It's very generic,  superficial and brief yet well mannered and respectful.  We don't get personal nor do I disclose my life to him.  I'm not overly curious about his life either.  We mind each others business and I'm the same way towards my in-laws.  We enforce healthy boundaries.  We don't invade each others privacy nor do we insert our strong opinions about anything otherwise it has the propensity to lead to heated arguments which are not enjoyable. 

I'm good to my mother but I've learned how to navigate my rapport with her so it is brief and nice but I don't go overboard.  We have this mutual understanding.  This is her comfort zone and I've grown to respect it.

Most of us want close,  harmonious relationships with our relatives.  However,  you have to be careful because whatever you say or write will not always be received well as you can attest.  Therefore, you have to exercise discretion if you want peace. 

As with any people in life,  you have to constantly contort and adapt in order to find a happy medium.  If you know a certain tack hadn't been successful for you,  then change your strategy so it's smoother and unobtrusive. 

Some people in your life are more receptive to your information whether it's about your career,  travels,  opinions or broached subjects.  They are morally supportive,  kind and know how to be gracious to you.  They are secure and adept at interpersonal relations.

Then there are those who are very complex.  These are the types of people you need to beware of and tread lightly otherwise they'll excoriate you.  Only dare to test the waters repeatedly at your own risk.

You can't change nor control people to your favor including your family.  Therefore,  you control yourself by changing your strategy and how you act.  This is how you attain peace.  It may not be the optimal family dynamic you desire but at least you'll have peace which is your goal. 

[trojan]

On 3/15/2023 at 3:30 PM, trojan said:

But it seems like a huge conflict to be reaching out because you want validation from the contacts when you know very well that you will not be receiving validation. 

 

When I wrote the original post, I was trying to make it clear that I do NOT tell my brother what to do. Twenty years ago, I told him in an offhand way he should think of quitting smoking. This is a matter of life and death! During his five emails, he informed me he still smokes 40 cigarettes a day. That was like the only thing I ever told him to do in the last 40 years. Another time I sent him a secondhand book on how to bicycle tour long distances. I did not actually tell him he should, I just sent the book as a gentle hint. That was like 10 years ago. Other than that, I never express what I think he should do.

He, on the other hand, feels fine telling me what job to have, whether to bicycle tour, what countries are too dangerous, what way to part my hair, and what shampoo to use

[trojan]

1 hour ago, Cherylyn said:

Most of us want close,  harmonious relationships with our relatives.  However,  you have to be careful because whatever you say or write will not always be received well as you can attest.  Therefore, you have to exercise discretion if you want peace. 

 

I am going to try all of this when I call both of them next Mothers day. May? I explained above the last time I told my brother what to do was telling him in an offhand comment that he should think of quitting smoking. I didn't even belabor the point, just one short sentence. He still smokes 40 cigarettes a day. I did not tell him to go on an adventure instead of mom's house for lunch, I just sent him a second-hand book about bicycle touring. It was just a hint he might do something else. I never mentioned it.

I'll try your ideas. I'll read them a few times before I call. I'll even write down ideas to call about. How the coffee was in Central America. How deep the snow is around my hut. That kinda stuff.

[Cherylyn]

20 hours ago, trojan said:

I am going to try all of this when I call both of them next Mothers day. May? I explained above the last time I told my brother what to do was telling him in an offhand comment that he should think of quitting smoking. I didn't even belabor the point, just one short sentence. He still smokes 40 cigarettes a day. I did not tell him to go on an adventure instead of mom's house for lunch, I just sent him a second-hand book about bicycle touring. It was just a hint he might do something else. I never mentioned it.

I'll try your ideas. I'll read them a few times before I call. I'll even write down ideas to call about. How the coffee was in Central America. How deep the snow is around my hut. That kinda stuff.

Thank you @trojan  For Mother's Day,  since you have a good relationship with your mother, continue your mother-son rapport because it's working for you. 

As for your brother,  don't get personal with him.  No offhand comments whatsoever.  Don't insert your opinions regarding his unhealthy habit of smoking because with all due respect,  treat it as if it's none of your business.  It's his body,   his brain and his decision to do as he will even if he destroys himself and even if you don't agree with his choices. 

I don't agree with my brother and whatever he does.  However,  I never comment otherwise it will enrage him.  Most people want you to back off and refrain from talking too much or texting too much.  Learn to keep your mouth shut if you want to play it safe meaning if you want to avoid nasty backlash.  If your brother smokes 40 cigarettes a day,  so what?  It's his life.  Even though you care,  you can care in your own way from afar such as praying for him if you pray but don't tell him or your mother that.  Keep it to yourself.  Don't send him books about bicycle touring because again,  you're getting personal.  People don't like passive "suggestions" because they feel that it's intrusive and disrespectful.  You mean well but it isn't perceived with good intentions.  It is perceived as your being too invested in them to the point of obnoxious.  Learn to disassociate in a cool yet well mannered,  respectful way.  Detach yourself from your brother.  You can still be civil and polite towards him.  If you must have a verbal conversation with him, keep it superficial and very brief.  Same with texts.  Keep that minimal to nil. 

In other words,  with your brother,  be BORING as hell.  Yes, how's the coffee in Central America?  I wouldn't even talk about the deep snow around your hut otherwise you run the risk of one formerly innocent topic leading to an irritating comment from him so beware.  Remember,  never talk about yourself,  your life,  your surroundings, your geography,  your career,  what you do,  travel,  none of that.  Deflect talking about yourself and go towards BORING,  brief,  generic, superficially SAFE topics.  When you're boring,  he'll want to eventually end the conversation which is what you want!  Say your nice "good-byes" and all is well.  Be peaceful ! 

My late father was a heavy smoker.  Smokers become easily agitated.  They're nervous,  irritable and belligerent.  Hair triggers set them off like an explosion.  Cigarettes are like drugs and extremely addictive.  Smokers' brains are not healthy.  Their bodies are dying inside.  Their lungs are black.  Their blood is dirty with nicotine.  Their brains are fried.  You need to converse with your brother as if you're conversing with cigarette chemicals and not him as a normal human being.  You need to alter your mindset.  Sure, be kind to him as your brother but don't overly invest in him emotionally by "caring" otherwise you'll be vulnerable to his attacks as you can attest.  You need to tread lightly.  Be careful.  It's better to say less than too much and get yourself into trouble.  With practice,  you will learn how to handle him.  Be pleasant,  don't go overboard, remain impersonal,  superficially brief and be done with it.  In your mind, don't criticize how he lives with his mother still.  Have compassion.  You don't have to agree with his choices in life regarding his living arrangements,  smoking heavily, his lack of world experiences,  exercise or whatever.  That's his business.  Back off and change yourself and your dynamic.  That's the only thing you can control in your favor.  Keep the peace. 

[Cherylyn]

21 hours ago, trojan said:

When I wrote the original post, I was trying to make it clear that I do NOT tell my brother what to do. Twenty years ago, I told him in an offhand way he should think of quitting smoking. This is a matter of life and death! During his five emails, he informed me he still smokes 40 cigarettes a day. That was like the only thing I ever told him to do in the last 40 years. Another time I sent him a secondhand book on how to bicycle tour long distances. I did not actually tell him he should, I just sent the book as a gentle hint. That was like 10 years ago. Other than that, I never express what I think he should do.

He, on the other hand, feels fine telling me what job to have, whether to bicycle tour, what countries are too dangerous, what way to part my hair, and what shampoo to use

It's good that you never tell him what to do @trojan.

Let him tell you what to do such as what job to have,  whether to bicycle tour,  what countries are too dangerous,  where to part your hair and what shampoo to use or whatever.  Just quietly listen.  I would even go so far as to be nice and say, "Thank you."  Remember, keep the peace.  Let him have his say and when you're ready to end the conversation,  say, "Thank you" and end the call pleasantly.  I wouldn't text because texting can get awfully complicated and messy.  Since you only speak to your brother infrequently, keep the phone conversations pleasant and brief yet well mannered.  Don't talk about yourself!  Try this tack.  I've done this with people whom I'm not particularly fond of.  It doesn't mean you'll follow their advice nor tell him that.  You just politely listen, say, "thank you" and nicely end the call.  No harm,  no foul.  Practice good diplomacy.  This is how you handle people whom you don't like. 

My brother tells me something similar to what your brother tells you but I don't become defensive nor argue.  I let him finish, say, "thank you" and nicely end the call.  Use self control.  You can't control other people.  All you can do is conduct yourself with grace and good manners.  The other person feels fine,  you're fine and all is well.  Prevent and avoid conflict and confrontation.  Keep the peace always.  You will be fine.