she lost attraction based on my poor social skills (i think)

[catfeeder]

32 minutes ago, evano said:

if i dropped it as soon as i saw she was upset do you think it’s still really bad? would you personally dump someone for that? thanks

We don't know what you said, but I can offer that conflicts with a parent about child-rearing, even if the advice is coming from a degreed expert, can be pretty fatal with some people.

Do you have children of your own?

[Andrina]

2 hours ago, evano said:

I said a few awkward things and made a devil’s advocate blunder once again that got her defensive.

 

2 hours ago, evano said:

but i liked her, and i can’t help but worry that it’s my bad habit of debating.

You don't treat everyone the same way. It's kind of like revealing different parts of yourself according to who they are. Just like you would talk to your boss differently than a co-worker. And how you would speak to a casual friend differently than you would your closest buddy. There are friends you know who would love to hear your dirty joke, but you'd avoid telling them to another friend who you know would be offended.

My point is that you didn't know her well enough to know if she'd welcome a debate. And actually there are probably a smaller pool of people who enjoy that sort of banter, so you should lose that pattern of debating unless you've seen signs of the same in someone you meet.

How about some fluffier banter, moving forward in your dating life, in those early days? Like: Did you have pets growing up? Do you have them now? Do you have siblings? Do they live in the area? Do you like to travel, and if so, where have you been? What are your bucket list travel destinations?

Those subjects don't involve debate.

40 minutes ago, evano said:

if i dropped it as soon as i saw she was upset do you think it’s still really bad? would you personally dump someone for that?

Not that why she dumped you was frivolous, but know that it can take very little for a person to decide to no longer date you at the very beginning. You haven't built a solid foundation, whereas, in a relationship with time invested, a person would ask for  behavior to be improved because they care, and want things to be fixed. At an early stage, a person doesn't care, so it's very easy to leave to find someone who matches them better.

[evano]

14 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

We don't know what you said, but I can offer that conflicts with a parent about child-rearing, even if the advice is coming from a degreed expert, can be pretty fatal with some people.

Do you have children of your own?

i don’t have kids. i was just speaking from my experience as a child, but naturally she approached it as a parent, which i tried to validate

[evano]

35 minutes ago, Andrina said:

 

You don't treat everyone the same way. It's kind of like revealing different parts of yourself according to who they are. Just like you would talk to your boss differently than a co-worker. And how you would speak to a casual friend differently than you would your closest buddy. There are friends you know who would love to hear your dirty joke, but you'd avoid telling them to another friend who you know would be offended.

My point is that you didn't know her well enough to know if she'd welcome a debate. And actually there are probably a smaller pool of people who enjoy that sort of banter, so you should lose that pattern of debating unless you've seen signs of the same in someone you meet.

How about some fluffier banter, moving forward in your dating life, in those early days? Like: Did you have pets growing up? Do you have them now? Do you have siblings? Do they live in the area? Do you like to travel, and if so, where have you been? What are your bucket list travel destinations?

Those subjects don't involve debate.

Not that why she dumped you was frivolous, but know that it can take very little for a person to decide to no longer date you at the very beginning. You haven't built a solid foundation, whereas, in a relationship with time invested, a person would ask for  behavior to be improved because they care, and want things to be fixed. At an early stage, a person doesn't care, so it's very easy to leave to find someone who matches them better.

you raise some great points. well 90% of the time i personally thought the conversations were great. i learned a ton about her. i understand that people can be picky and have every right to. i personally give people more of a chance but im also not an attractive woman. well, i do wish i could have been myself more comfortably, and if things are so tenuous at the start, it’s hard to see them getting better later, though your point is well taken. thank you. but yeah i got the wrong read and thought i could be that part of myself. also, i was just nervous because i liked her. it really hurts to feel that you’re annoying someone when you like them. also, i do want to clarify that by debate, i don’t mean that i am trying to prove a point, but i just found a lot of what she said so stimulating. i wish i could be a different person. am having a hard time dealing with the thought that if i kept a few thoughts to myself i could been with her

[catfeeder]

59 minutes ago, evano said:

i don’t have kids. i was just speaking from my experience as a child, but naturally she approached it as a parent, which i tried to validate

I'm childless too, and I'll just offer that unless a parent specifically asks my opinion on a certain subject involving kids, I won't raise my ideas about childrearing. And I've never felt particularly stifled by this.

What was the other subject that she found offensive?

[evano]

7 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

I'm childless too, and I'll just offer that unless a parent specifically asks my opinion on a certain subject involving kids, I won't raise my ideas about childrearing. And I've never felt particularly stifled by this.

What was the other subject that she found offensive?

yeah i mean i have no idea what it’s like to raise a kid! lol all due respect. i was just talking about how children and adults share lot of the same fears, and there are lots of things made for kids with pretty mature scary bits! the other thing was about aggression having no place in the world. i disagreed, without getting into it and boring you now, though i told her i don’t like aggression either! the last thing was a misunderstanding that never got explained was she said something about being raised a certain way s as a woman and i was like “oh please!” but i meant she was beyond those limits, and i think she thought i was saying that it didn’t happen. i  was also pretty nervous. i remember what she said but not what i said so well. i did send her an apology text if i hurt her feelings, but asked her not to reply so she didn’t think i wanted something. anyhow thanks for listening

[Batya33]

16 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

I'm childless too, and I'll just offer that unless a parent specifically asks my opinion on a certain subject involving kids, I won't raise my ideas about childrearing. And I've never felt particularly stifled by this.

What was the other subject that she found offensive?

And I have a child and still won't - the only difference is that in a non-judgmental way I will share my experience with my own child but only if I am certain the other person won't see it as me telling them to do as I did. Especially with subjective experiences like fear, physical risks, milestones.  I've gotten great input from parents and non-parents alike about child rearing. 

I do think fear is a universal emotion and broadly speaking children and adults share some of the same fears - but that's irrelevant mostly because the way a child reacts to fear is often far different from an adult because of developmental stages, even physical changes.

For example - my child and I each fear getting lost in a strange country where we don't speak the language - but my child's fear is compounded by the fact that if he were lost he'd also be afraid to be apart from his parent or "grownup" which is not a real fear of an adult (sure for some maybe subconscious but not reality). 

Children and adults can fear loud, sudden noises but very often the adult knows a lot more about the source of the loud noise so the experience of fear is quite different.  

 

[catfeeder]

6 minutes ago, evano said:

... and i was like “oh please!”

Ewwww... 

Yep, ^^^^ that'll do it.  (Have you noticed?)

You might have a certain familiarity with close buddies or family members who might possibly give you a pass after saying such a thing, but when you're first getting to know someone, they aren't invested enough in you to put up with it.

On a date, this comes off as though you have no respect, no filter and no self control.

I'm really sorry, but I just don't know anyone who would stick around for another date after being spoken to that way.

Head high, we all learn from trial and error.

[SooSad33]

1 hour ago, evano said:

i got the wrong read and thought i could be that part of myself. also, i was just nervous because i liked her. it really hurts to feel that you’re annoying someone when you like them. also, i do want to clarify that by debate, i don’t mean that i am trying to prove a point, but i just found a lot of what she said so stimulating. i wish i could be a different person.

No, you should be yourself!  The right one will like that in you....

IMO, it could just be that she didn't 'feel it'.  That happens all the time!

So, if we don't feel it, then we won't go back.

Try not to over think all of this... and to some extent, yeah, can be a learning experience.

 

[evano]

32 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Ewwww... 

Yep, ^^^^ that'll do it.  (Have you noticed?)

You might have a certain familiarity with close buddies or family members who might possibly give you a pass after saying such a thing, but when you're first getting to know someone, they aren't invested enough in you to put up with it.

On a date, this comes off as though you have no respect, no filter and no self control.

I'm really sorry, but I just don't know anyone who would stick around for another date after being spoken to that way.

Head high, we all learn from trial and error.

wait did you miss what i said though?! she misunderstood me! i was basically saying i thought she awesome. she misunderstood, though understandably so. but yeah maybe she did get offended here, but the vibe was off from the start of the date. im not really sure why she came. we’ll never know for sure i guess

[evano]

Just now, SooSad33 said:

No, you should be yourself!  The right one will like that in you....

IMO, it could just be that she didn't 'feel it'.  That happens all the time!

So, if we don't feel it, then we won't go back.

Try not to over think all of this... and to some extent, yeah, can be a learning experience.

 

thanks very much. you are probably the most compassionate person i’ve come across online. don’t wanna bug my friends, but need someone to talk to. thank you

[SooSad33]

15 minutes ago, evano said:

don’t wanna bug my friends, but need someone to talk to.

That's what a place like this is for 😉 .

Found it very helpful many years ago..lol

[evano]

25 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

And I have a child and still won't - the only difference is that in a non-judgmental way I will share my experience with my own child but only if I am certain the other person won't see it as me telling them to do as I did. Especially with subjective experiences like fear, physical risks, milestones.  I've gotten great input from parents and non-parents alike about child rearing. 

I do think fear is a universal emotion and broadly speaking children and adults share some of the same fears - but that's irrelevant mostly because the way a child reacts to fear is often far different from an adult because of developmental stages, even physical changes.

For example - my child and I each fear getting lost in a strange country where we don't speak the language - but my child's fear is compounded by the fact that if he were lost he'd also be afraid to be apart from his parent or "grownup" which is not a real fear of an adult (sure for some maybe subconscious but not reality). 

Children and adults can fear loud, sudden noises but very often the adult knows a lot more about the source of the loud noise so the experience of fear is quite different.  

 

for the record, it’s not like i was telling her how to raise a child. ever seen disney pinnochio? dark crystal? wizard of oz? that’s what im talking about. fear and fantasy in movies. kids love those movies and the creators scared the crap out of them too, and knew just how to tap into fears like they do other emotions. kids process this. they can also recognize how it’s pretend. it’s kind of cool i think. no offense to my date, or to you, out to any other parent or person, but i was just giving my opinion on s broad topic. i was a kid and i taught kids for years. im not a parent though, so i wouldn’t tell her how to raise her child. in fact, when she seemed to get upset, i told her i would probably protect my kid too andi agreed with her.  i don’t think im “right” but i think there’s truth to what i said too. but yeah, everyone has different perspectives and that’s great i think

[evano]

6 minutes ago, SooSad33 said:

That's what a place like this is for 😉 .

Found it very helpful many years ago..lol

tbh i have already encountered some bullying too though. it’s hard to escape when people are anonymous

[catfeeder]

26 minutes ago, evano said:

wait did you miss what i said though?! she misunderstood me! i was basically saying i thought she awesome. she misunderstood, though understandably so

I hear. You already noticed she was shutting down to you at the start of this date, right?

So negating whatever she was trying to tell you sealed the deal.

I'm really sorry, and I understand that this wasn't what you intended to do.

She was already primed by the last time she felt offended, so the tone of this, unfortunately, drove that home.

This may not make her 'right' or you 'wrong' it just means that you can't predict the sensitivity of new dates, so it's better to use discretion if you want your dates to feel comfortable while getting to know you better.

No loss to you, she was just not the right match. You'll find her.

 

[evano]

10 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

I hear. You already noticed she was shutting down to you at the start of this date, right?

So negating whatever she was trying to tell you sealed the deal.

I'm really sorry, and I understand that this wasn't what you intended to do.

She was already primed by the last time she felt offended, so the tone of this, unfortunately, drove that home.

This may not make her 'right' or you 'wrong' it just means that you can't predict the sensitivity of new dates, so it's better to use discretion if you want your dates to feel comfortable while getting to know you better.

No loss to you, she was just not the right match. You'll find her.

 

oh ok i see what you’re saying. it’s a little hard to live with this though. its going to be a little rough. i am an idiot. im not convinced she is wrong for me. it seems like i just said the wrong things that didn’t match what i meant signing off now. will shut up and listen instead

[Kwothe28]

You can never know about stuff like that OP. And what turned her off. For example you not only organized a date that implied sex, you organized a very lame one where you were gona watch a movie. Instead of maybe dinner date where you would cook for her. OK she agreed to it, but there are some implications there. And she is not dumb to not know them. So its unclear if that turned her off as you say that she was defensive from the start. Or your argumentativity.

I also have a friend like that. He is pretty and plays guitar so ladies like him. But he also likes to go into pointless arguments. Even more when he drinks a few beers. So instead of taking an advatage his ability to attract the ladies, he turns them off with pointless arguments about irrelevant  stuff. Stuff like if kids should watch horror movies. I think if your point was in seducing her, your "talk" was very poor. Instead of maybe being flirty or giving some compliment, or even just telling some interesting stories and asking her about hers, you chose being argumentative. You need more "tact" regarding those stuff. 

[evano]

33 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

You can never know about stuff like that OP. And what turned her off. For example you not only organized a date that implied sex, you organized a very lame one where you were gona watch a movie. Instead of maybe dinner date where you would cook for her. OK she agreed to it, but there are some implications there. And she is not dumb to not know them. So its unclear if that turned her off as you say that she was defensive from the start. Or your argumentativity.

I also have a friend like that. He is pretty and plays guitar so ladies like him. But he also likes to go into pointless arguments. Even more when he drinks a few beers. So instead of taking an advatage his ability to attract the ladies, he turns them off with pointless arguments about irrelevant  stuff. Stuff like if kids should watch horror movies. I think if your point was in seducing her, your "talk" was very poor. Instead of maybe being flirty or giving some compliment, or even just telling some interesting stories and asking her about hers, you chose being argumentative. You need more "tact" regarding those stuff. 

i gave her three choices for a date, none of which i personally thought were lame, but sure, you think they are. movie was her idea from date 2 

[Tinydance]

Well if I'm going to be honest, I think your comment about kids needing to watch horror/scary movies was kind of strange. And I actually say this as a HUGE horror movie fan myself. I've been watching horror since I was ten years old (I'm 37) and to be honest I'm not sure why my parents let me watch it at that age. They let me watch all the Nightmare on Elm Street movies and they're actually MA rated, so recommended only for people over the age of 15.

I think your comment was strange because a lot if kids are actually scared of horror movies and it affects them badly. Some even have nightmares afterwards. Most horror movies are rated M and above so recommended for people over 13 or 15 years old. I'm not even sure that they're appropriate for kids, and I'm really into horror! Most horror movies contain violence, blood, sex scenes, murder, things like that. I don't think kids really need to see that. 

Also kids don't "have" to watch any particular genres of movies if they don't interest them. What is the purpose of children or even adults watching any movie genre if they don't like it? The same goes for sci-fi, thriller, action, anything. Nobody "has" to watch anything but things they actually like watching.

Also I think when you don't have kids yourself and you actually start telling a parent: "Kids should do XYZ" but you have zero experience in it, I think it comes across as a bit strange and preachy. The parent has significantly more experience in what children actually need and want than someone with no kids. Unless the someone with no kids has a lot of experience with kids. For example if they work as a school teacher, childcare worker, as a paediatrician doctor.

Also I think yes it's important to be yourself but on the first few dates I think it's best just to keep things light. People want to get to know you, about your job, hobbies and interests but not to go into big philosophical discussions or debates. And the debate can quickly turn sour if the person doesn't share your beliefs. They're not invested in you yet so if they start finding something about you that irked them, it's pretty easy just to walk away. 

Having said all that though, sometimes you actually didn't do anything wrong but for some reason the person just didn't feel any chemistry or found some things about you incompatible to them.

For example, I went on some dates with a guy once who didn't say this on his online dating profile but then told me that he's religious and goes to church. There is nothing wrong with that at all but I myself don't have any interest in religion. I'm atheist or agnostic at best and my family and I never went to church. I also didn't feel that I had much in common with that guy, but he was a nice guy and nice looking as well. I just didn't think we were a good match so I didn't pursue it any further.

[boltnrun]

To this day my son still chastises me for allowing him to watch Scream. He was probably about ten years old. I knew it was a parody but he didn't even know what the word parody meant. He tells me he had nightmares for months. He's right. I should have known better. My parents took us to see Jaws when I was about 8 or 9. We lived right on the ocean so I don't know what they were thinking. I wouldn't go swimming in the ocean for YEARS. 

Bottom line, it's her decision as the parent. 

Oh, and I despise "debating". I've had people try to goad me into what they call a "discussion" and I hate it. Especially when we're supposed to be relaxing and having a nice time.

There are women who love debating, however. One of them is probably a better fit for you.

[evano]

33 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well if I'm going to be honest, I think your comment about kids needing to watch horror/scary movies was kind of strange. And I actually say this as a HUGE horror movie fan myself. I've been watching horror since I was ten years old (I'm 37) and to be honest I'm not sure why my parents let me watch it at that age. They let me watch all the Nightmare on Elm Street movies and they're actually MA rated, so recommended only for people over the age of 15.

I think your comment was strange because a lot if kids are actually scared of horror movies and it affects them badly. Some even have nightmares afterwards. Most horror movies are rated M and above so recommended for people over 13 or 15 years old. I'm not even sure that they're appropriate for kids, and I'm really into horror! Most horror movies contain violence, blood, sex scenes, murder, things like that. I don't think kids really need to see that. 

Also kids don't "have" to watch any particular genres of movies if they don't interest them. What is the purpose of children or even adults watching any movie genre if they don't like it? The same goes for sci-fi, thriller, action, anything. Nobody "has" to watch anything but things they actually like watching.

Also I think when you don't have kids yourself and you actually start telling a parent: "Kids should do XYZ" but you have zero experience in it, I think it comes across as a bit strange and preachy. The parent has significantly more experience in what children actually need and want than someone with no kids. Unless the someone with no kids has a lot of experience with kids. For example if they work as a school teacher, childcare worker, as a paediatrician doctor.

Also I think yes it's important to be yourself but on the first few dates I think it's best just to keep things light. People want to get to know you, about your job, hobbies and interests but not to go into big philosophical discussions or debates. And the debate can quickly turn sour if the person doesn't share your beliefs. They're not invested in you yet so if they start finding something about you that irked them, it's pretty easy just to walk away. 

Having said all that though, sometimes you actually didn't do anything wrong but for some reason the person just didn't feel any chemistry or found some things about you incompatible to them.

For example, I went on some dates with a guy once who didn't say this on his online dating profile but then told me that he's religious and goes to church. There is nothing wrong with that at all but I myself don't have any interest in religion. I'm atheist or agnostic at best and my family and I never went to church. I also didn't feel that I had much in common with that guy, but he was a nice guy and nice looking as well. I just didn't think we were a good match so I didn't pursue it any further.

thanks for taking the time to reply. just want to clarify i  was talking about movies made for kids—pinocchio, dark crystal, wizard of oz. also, i didn’t give any parenting advice. i didn’t think it was so weird at the time, but she didn’t like it. get that a lot of people don’t like philosophical discussions and want to respect that. i do enjoy them though. if i could take it back i would. i was just nervous and rambling. a lot of our conversation, maybe 90%was light and supportive

[evano]

14 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

To this day my son still chastises me for allowing him to watch Scream. He was probably about ten years old. I knew it was a parody but he didn't even know what the word parody meant. He tells me he had nightmares for months. He's right. I should have known better. My parents took us to see Jaws when I was about 8 or 9. We lived right on the ocean so I don't know what they were thinking. I wouldn't go swimming in the ocean for YEARS. 

Bottom line, it's her decision as the parent. 

Oh, and I despise "debating". I've had people try to goad me into what they call a "discussion" and I hate it. Especially when we're supposed to be relaxing and having a nice time.

There are women who love debating, however. One of them is probably a better fit for you.

it was actually about scary children’s movies like pinocchio, dark crydtsl etc. my remarks had nothing to do with parenting. i should clarify, maybe debate is a poor choice of words as i am not trying to change her mind or disagree but rather just go on a bit about something i’ve read out the like. she sort of took it more personally though. it’s not like i only debate and never have light conversation

[evano]

7 hours ago, smackie9 said:

We can't really say what actually went wrong because we weren't there. As for talking about kids in the manner that you did, leave that subject totally out with any parent...very touchy subject for some, not worth the risk. But all in all, it's not a match if you can't be yourself. If she is that sensitive and can't counter your opinion in a honest and positive way, you dodged a bullet. Look at it this way...from what you have said so far she's the one with the problem not you, and that's how you should look at it.

im curious—this post of mine has gotten a lot of responses, and you’re the only person who doesn’t pin all the blame on me. you seem to understand that i wasn’t trying to tell her she was wrong or something, though that’s how it turned out. why do you think you’re the only one to see it this way?

[Kwothe28]

1 hour ago, evano said:

i gave her three choices for a date, none of which i personally thought were lame, but sure, you think they are. movie was her idea from date 2 

I like movies. Just think that your suggestion for something like that was lame and has certain implications. For example its implied that something happens on a 3rd date. So you, suggesting she going to your home to watch a movie, it has a certain implication to it. Which could be construed as something in your character. First few dates are usually weighting in if the other option is good for us or not. You suggesting stuff like that could be construed in some other way. I am not saying it was, she agreed to date. Just that she maybe took it as you wanting for sex. Which she didnt like. Again, first few dates are weighting in. So, something like that and you are out.

Its very difficult to know stuff like that. You dont know that woman. So it could be a variety of things. From you being argumentative to just factors that arent up to you. For example, maybe she just met somebody else in meantime. I think that you should work on being less argumentative. Dont think you would go far with that. But it could be a variety of other stuff that turned her off.

[boltnrun]

19 minutes ago, evano said:

i am not trying to change her mind or disagree but rather just go on a bit about something i’ve read out the like.

That is the definition of debate.  Giving a countering opinion and "going on a bit" which implies you didn't just make a quick comment or observation.

As a parent it's generally not welcome to be told or even have it implied that the choices we're making are not valid or that a different point of view is better than ours. Trust me, parents are VERY touchy about this, as you've seen.

I don't believe you had malicious intentions at all.  I just think you haven't had experience dating a parent before and didn't realize how personally parents take anything that could be perceived as criticism of their parenting choices.

I would write this one off as a done deal.  But dating is always full of experiences.  Some good and some not so good.