Dating and Sex: Double Standard

[CG]

And if a guy is just not that into me, that's ok. But, I think if I approached 100 single men, I don't think that 99 would be "melting" and only 1 would look at me like I was nuts/ugly/crazy. I don't know... maybe 70/30?

 

Well, it has to do with what kind of guys you approach.

If you tend to go for good looking ones.. (I guess it is likely since what else we can see about a guy or a girl?) then the ratio might be even lower. Depends how good looking he is.

If we are talking just abour average looking guys, yes 70/30 is a good ratio.

[Caldus]

CG, just because a guy is "hot" doesn't mean that he's always going to respond negatively. Who looks hot to one girl may look ugly to another anyway. So you can't really create the categories of "above average" and so on. Everyone is very different so you can't make generalizations like that.

[Shidoshi]

I kind of agree with CG. This seems to apply to both genders. I know that 9 times out of 10 if I approach a really "hot" female I'm most likely going to get turned down. Not because I'm not attractive, but because very good looking people tend to have high expectations when it comes to physical appearance. I see this every day. It isn't a coincidence that you see most couples together who have a similar level of attractiveness. Of course there are always exceptions. As I've mentioned before, the girls who have been the most aggressive in approaching me I've not been attracted to (most of the time).

 

Whether people will admit it or not doesn't mean physical appearance isn't a high priority on their list.

[corvidae]

Gee Annie, I think maybe you and me come from parallel dimensions and that one of us has slipped over without realising it I mean, clearly you have no trouble approaching men and you know TONS of women that make a similar effort!?! I've seen a woman approach a man once, and that was last month. I myself have never been approached, that means I've never been asked out by a stranger nor by a friend/aquaintance. As for a 7/10 record, well that's very very good! I mean, you've probably got more that a 3/10 chance they are in a relationship/gay/are attracted to women with beards etc... Based on my previouse experiences my chances are 0/10 or more like 0/100. This is would seem to indicate is it tougher for a man to get a date.

 

Women are saying 'it's tough for us too!'. But let me ask you, would you want to trade places with men? If I could, by some magic power, make it so that no man would ever make the first move, would women be happy with that? You know what I think? I think if no-one ever approached you, you'd feel like there was something wrong with you, you'd feel like an outsider, like you were ugly or disgusting or something.

 

Here's an important point: if women were willing to approach me then I'd be willing to approach women. I do NOT think there is a problem with 'win some lose some' but I do think there IS a problem with 'Lose all win none'. A mixture of positive and negative results is all I want, but Annie, you state it as if it's a bad thing

I also know TONS of girls who have initiated things with guys - where they go up to them and say hi. Their experiences have also been positive and negative.

 

I think the one thing women can't understand is the concept of getting no attention what-so-ever and how that affects your opinion of yourself. I mean, can you imagine, just for a second, how you would feel about yourself if you had never had any positive reinforcement throughout the entirety, THE ENTIRETY, of your life? Can you? Women don't get it because all women get some attention at some point. So how does it feel to get none? Well, sometimes I don't even feel human.

[annie24]

What I'm saying is that just because a woman asks out a man, doesn't mean that he'll say yes, even if he is single. I'm just saying that i don't think that every man would *melt* upon being approached by a woman.

 

Women check guys out all the time! In restaurants, in the street, but I think we're just more discreet than some guys.

 

Corvidae - are you sure that no girl has ever approached you? I mean, a girl that always found a reason to hang out with you, or always needed your advice on something....?

[CG]

Whether people will admit it or not doesn't mean physical appearance isn't a high priority on their list.

 

You got it!! Most people usually are not willing to admit this. It may sound

superficial and thereforeeee "not good". So they choose not to admit this fact.

Especially women are having hard tim ewith it: society trained them in a way that they should be nice all the time.. if a woman admit "I like hot guys, and if approach guys, they are only hot ones", is she does say so,

she ruins her image as a "nice girl".

If a guy admits it, "I approach only hot girls" well.. it is almost ok, since we know guys are way more superficial in general.

 

The point is it is hard to admit what society says is "not good" to admit.

[CG]

how you would feel about yourself if you had never had any positive reinforcement throughout the entirety, THE ENTIRETY, of your life? Can you?

 

Do you want to get some positive reinforcement, are you working on it,

or you choose just to talk about the lack of it?

[volution]

I think to look at relationships with a view to 'power' is entirely wrong. Power is only an ego-based construct - ie: we feel 'good' when we are able to have control over something.

 

"Ready-made family" lol! It's funny you say that like that - a couple of years ago, I found that many women seemed to be attracted to divorced men with children and 'ready-made family' was something I coined...

I guess men believe that they would have to bring up your children at their expense, and since they are not their own flesh & blood, they don't really seen any incentive to taking them on, and that's why they'd probably go with younger women (who don't have any children).

 

I'm one of those few guys that don't want to have children with women my age or younger. It's amazing, especially in the UK, how many girls/women in their 20s seem to think they can carry on like normal after having their kids (going to clubs, smoking, drinking) - they don't take responsibility and they have hardly become adults themselves, and the kids end up being right little tearaways. (Got to add that to my recent UK rant

I believe that most men tend to have children with younger women, because of the ancient ingrained beliefs of 'young = fertile' and hence more success of bearing (healthy+attractive) offpsring.

I'm incredibly attracted to having children with a more mature and grounded woman (late 30s/early 40s) - they would realise more what mattered about children, and will be more responsible.

I hope there are women still left in their 30s/40s that want children!!!

 

 

 

I'm also a divorced mother with three children to raise ( all by myself) and I'm continuing my education. I think most men find a ready made family too much for them...so they reject me before getting to know me....where is the power there?

 

I'm 36, so I'm no longer a cute young 20 something and most men want a young woman to have babies with ( even the guys my age want to show off a young thing) So I get passed over. Where is the power there?

 

Ain't that the truth.

[corvidae]

Do you want to get some positive reinforcement, are you working on it,

or you choose just to talk about the lack of it?

 

You can't work on getting positive reinforcement, it's something that's given to you unasked. That's the whole point of it.

[corvidae]

.

Corvidae - are you sure that no girl has ever approached you? I mean, a girl that always found a reason to hang out with you, or always needed your advice on something....?

 

I'm as certain as I can be without being telepathic. I'm not trying to be facetious, but really, if someone is so subtle in their advances that it's imperceptible, then they may as well not bother. No one's ever given the two 'signs' you refer to.

[volution]

"Any woman or the right woman" - I know that line sounds cheesy, but I do believe it's true!

It does hurt like hell, when there's no-one to share life with, but would you rather desperately find 'any' woman, to end the loneliness, or would you rather find the 'right' woman...

Sometimes, I do think that a higher force does intervene in our romantic lives - if we have a good, honest heart, then sometimes it feels like we'll never find someone. But perhaps we're just being 'saved' from the wrong women.

 

I know you're as p****d off and frustrated as I am, Corvidae, but may I recommend this book: link removed by Kathy Freston.

 

 

.

Corvidae - are you sure that no girl has ever approached you? I mean, a girl that always found a reason to hang out with you, or always needed your advice on something....?

 

I'm as certain as I can be without being telepathic. I'm not trying to be facetious, but really, if someone is so subtle in their advances that it's imperceptible, then they may as well not bother. No one's ever given the two 'signs' you refer to.

[corvidae]

Right now I just want to be considered a part of the human race. I'd be happy to have a relationship that goes nowhere and leaves me miserable for a while because THAT'S WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE DO. They make mistakes, feel pain but have pleasure too. To just be nothing, out in limbo, no good no bad, just not looked at, not acknowledged, that's the worst. It's like being a ghost that walks among people.

 

You're right Volution, I do feel p****d off but it goes away. After all these years I find myself able to deal with it better. It's like not being able to walk, you can get mad at the Universe but so what? The Universe doesn't care. No-one cares. I may as well be angry the sky is blue. You just have to deal with it.

[doorik]

@Corvidae

 

No matter how well you articulate your thoughts, no matter how well thought out your arguments are, no matter how well you refute counter arguments, you will not get the ladies on this board or anywhere else for that matter, to admit they have an advantage in any aspect/facet of the dating game.

 

Using logic and reason to argue with the ladies tend to get them angry.

[CG]

 

You can't work on getting positive reinforcement, it's something that's given to you unasked. That's the whole point of it.

 

I take it as you don't know how to get any positive reinforcement. May I assume it is the case? If yes, I can assure you there are some ways of getting it by consciously working on it.

Are you willing to put any efforts in getting positive reinforcement?

[annie24]

Using logic and reason to argue with the ladies tend to get them angry.

 

I find this statement highly offensive. I'm in a PhD program in biochemistry. I use logic and reason everyday. I'm saying, you can't make a broad argument like, 'women have it easier.' Remember, we're the ones that can get pregnant, and we're the ones that have to carry the child for 40 weeks, women have a whole ton of different circumstances to deal with. Of course we're 'pickier' in the beginning - we have evolved that way (as corvidae said).

 

And if you look throughout the world, for example, in saudi arabia, women are completely separated from men, they are not allowed to drive, not allowed to vote, at work, they have separate work spaces, and even at home, the women and the men have separate "family living rooms." And in the US, women didn't even get the right to vote until about 90 years ago. women still get less money for equal work. So, I mean, if this is your big complaint, that women have an easier time getting dates, you should really sit down and think about what it's like to be a woman.

[annie24]

But I think that Volution brings up an extremely good point. You can have a relationship, or you can have a good one. I think a lot of people stay in relationships that are marginally satisfying because they are afraid to be alone. I do believe it's better to meet someone who is truly right for you than to waste time with someone that you know is wrong, but you're afraid to be alone.

 

Just last night, I was talking to a friend of mine. His sister, who has been married for 2 years, is getting divorced. It turned out that the couple had "nothing in common" and really didn't get along all that well. I asked, "well, why did they get married in the first place." He said, "he asked, and she didn't know how to say no." I think this is a sad situation.

 

Corvidae - If I were in the UK, I'd ask you out on a date!

[RayKay]

Using logic and reason to argue with the ladies tend to get them angry.

 

I find this statement highly offensive. I'm in a PhD program in biochemistry. I use logic and reason everyday. I'm saying, you can't make a broad argument like, 'women have it easier.' Remember, we're the ones that can get pregnant, and we're the ones that have to carry the child for 40 weeks, women have a whole ton of different circumstances to deal with. Of course we're 'pickier' in the beginning - we have evolved that way (as corvidae said).

 

And if you look throughout the world, for example, in saudi arabia, women are completely separated from men, they are not allowed to drive, not allowed to vote, at work, they have separate work spaces, and even at home, the women and the men have separate "family living rooms." And in the US, women didn't even get the right to vote until about 90 years ago. women still get less money for equal work. So, I mean, if this is your big complaint, that women have an easier time getting dates, you should really sit down and think about what it's like to be a woman.

 

I have just read the last few posts of this thread, and was going to answer but I think that Annie24's reply above here is sufficient...the original "quote" is highly offensive, and a massive generalization. There is no way that at this stage of our social advancement as human beings that one should even think of making those kind of statements about women getting offended by logic and reason, and think that it is an acceptable way to generalize women.

 

It would be just as ridiculous as saying men never consider emotions or feelings. Possible that some don't, just as it is possible some women may not want to think rationally in some situations, but the same can be said for some women who don't consider emotions, and some men who may not think rationally or logically in all situations.

 

Maybe if we respected the differences between the sexes, but treated people as INDIVIDUALS first, and took time to know who they were as people and their own personalities, we would learn to stop making huge, unfair generalizations about either sex.

 

We have come a LONG way baby, but still have a WAY further way to go not just as women but as individuals and as the human race. Generalizations and comments like that only serve to hinder that process and leave some people stuck in the dark ages where people are treated inequal. It may seem like an innocent, funny comment to you - but for many women it is comments like that and thinking like that, that allow for them to be treated differently from men, or to be abused, segregated and so on.

[doorik]

I find this statement highly offensive. I'm in a PhD program in biochemistry. I use logic and reason everyday.

 

Hmmm, Looks like I offended some people - for that I apologize. I meant when arguing about relationships/dating/the sexes etc. and not in general conversations etc, where logic and reason are used often.

 

I'm saying, you can't make a broad argument like, 'women have it easier.' Remember, we're the ones that can get pregnant, and we're the ones that have to carry the child for 40 weeks, women have a whole ton of different circumstances to deal with.

 

Let me put it this way. If Corvidae stated Men have it WAY easier when it comes to pregnancy/child rearing. Women have to carry the child for 9 months, have back problems, morning sickness, mood swings, risk of surgery etc. Do you think I would not agree? I would absolutely agree with what you wrote about pregnancy.

 

[And if you look throughout the world, for example, in saudi arabia, women are completely separated from men, they are not allowed to drive, not allowed to vote, at work, they have separate work spaces, and even at home, the women and the men have separate "family living rooms." And in the US, women didn't even get the right to vote until about 90 years ago. women still get less money for equal work.

 

Again, if corvidae wrote in his original post that women are at a disadvantage in the middle east as they are treated like second rate citizens who can't vote,have no rights etc... Do you think I would disagree? Moreover, if Corvidae wrote in his original post men have the advantage in the work place as they receive more pay for the same work. Do you think I would disagree? Of course not.

 

The issue is that we are not talking about the disadvantages that women have when it comes to the issues you cited. I do not think there are many members here that would disagree with what you wrote above. The problem is that we are/were discussing Corvidae's double standard post and an almost absolute failure to acknowledge this one advantage the ladies have in the dating/relationship game.

[doorik]

wow looks like I messed up the quote function.....

[doorik]

The controversy began with the post where I wrote:

@Corvidae

 

No matter how well you articulate your thoughts, no matter how well thought out your arguments are, no matter how well you refute counter arguments, you will not get the ladies on this board or anywhere else for that matter, to admit they have an advantage in any aspect/facet of the dating game.

 

Using logic and reason to argue with the ladies tend to get them angry.

 

I'll try to use an example to demonstrate this point. When Annie24 wrote:

Now, I know that you are trying to construct a theory here, but I have to say, I don't agree with that statement at all. Plenty of women I know, myself included, have gone out to "get men." I've asked plenty of guys out, but it usually doesn't lead anywhere. So, I actually decided to stop asking guys out because it wasn't really working for me. Now, people tell me all the time that I'm attractive, but I guess every guy doesn't consider me to be his type. And that's ok. That's why women turn down some men who ask them out - not their type.

 

I responded with,

Your statement proves Corvidae's point. No matter how many times we get rejected we are expected to go in for more. We simply do not have the luxary of the "oh well, asking girls out doesn't work for me so I'll stop doing it" mentallity - Well, unless our steady girlfriend is handrea or palmala... That said, many fellas feel that after asking countless girl after countless girl out on dates they have come to the conclusion that they have been brow-beaten into silence by constant rejection. Doh well.....

 

To which Annie24 responded with,

I'm just sick of the "woe is me" attitude. Awwww... you feel bad that you are man? Well, you have two options: #1: get a sex change. #2: deal with it.

 

There are advantages to being a man, and there are advantages to being a woman. Sure, I don't have a hard time finding a date, but I have a difficult time trying to find a soul-mate, which is what I'm really looking for. You just have to play with the cards that you are dealt. If anyone complains about their lack of dating options, male or female, I say, go out and DO something about it!

- Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:40 pm

 

One may come to the conclusion that Annie24 really felt this way on a consistant basis whenever fellas like Corvidae bring up points like he did with his original post. However, in another tread, Kyoshiro Ogari wrote in his "SICK OF IT ALL" post:

 

I can't take it anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am being told to wait... wait... wait... and things will eventually happen! Hogwash!! I've prayed to God since I was 15 for a girlfriend, SINCE I WAS 15 YEARS!!! All I want is 1 girlfriend, I am not being selfish! I haven't had anything. I know I am supposed to make things happen, but when I begin to make some sort of effort, it turns out every damn time that these women have boyfriends. Or is that a coverup so they don't have to go out with me. What the hell have I done to deserve this B.S.! I am a very patient person, but now my patience HAS REACHED IT'S END! WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO, WHY AM I CURSED... I AM CURSED, YOU HAVE TO WALK IN MY SHOES TO SAY THAT I AM NOT!! NO GIRL LOVES ME, AND I AM STARTING TO WONDER IF I WILL LIVE ALONE. YES I WILL BECAUSE I AM TOO DAMN UGLY AND I HAVE DEFINITIVE PROOF. 32 YEARS OF NOTHING, NO SMILES, NO WINKS, NOTHING! ALL OF MY FRIENDS HAVE STORIES TO TELL ABOUT THIS GIRL AND THAT GIRL, I HAVE NO STORIES ON NO GIRLS. I HAVE HAD CRUSHES ON SO SO MANY GIRLS/WOMEN THROUGHOUT ALL MY LIFE AND ALL OF THEM, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM EITHER HAS A BOYFRIEND, HAS A HUSBAND, OR THINKS OF ME AS A NICE FUNNY GUY AND NO ROMANTIC POTENTIAL. I HAVE FRIENDS WHO MAKE LESS OF AN EFFORT THAN I DO AND THEY GET GIRLS, WHICH MEANS I AM HIDEOUS! I AM A VERY UGLY AND HIDEOUS MAN WHO WILL NEVER GET A GIRLFRIEND! I HATE PEOPLE TELLING ME THAT I AM NICE AND ONE DAY MY GIRL WILL COME. I'LL KEEP HEARING THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL I AM 90 YEARS OLD!!! I AM SICK OF IT ALL!!! MY HEART MIGHT AS WELL EXPLODE TO PIECES BECAUSE MY HEART HAS NO USE IN THIS WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Did Annie24 respond with - "I'm sick with this "WOE is me attitude" - go get a sex change!!!!? - Nope

She responded with,

 

... trust me... there are no accidents when it comes to who we choose. We all choose our partners in order to try to recitify some mistake our parents made when they were raising us.

 

I think that your choosing girls who are already attached is something subconsious going on in your head to keep yourself out of a relationship, regardless of what your conscious voice is saying!

 

I think you should really take the time to examine this. Really, looks have nothing to do with it. I know tons of ugly people who have dates, and even got married. I also know tons of single, attractive people.

 

I think you should sit down, and examine the barriers that you have put up around you. You may think that you haven't, but I'm pretty sure that you have....

- Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:12 pm

 

Note the date and time this was posted. It was posted after the "I'm tired of the WOE is me attitude" post. Now using logic and reason, the sudden change in attitude is either one, a total reversal of point/stance/opinion on this subject or two, the "I'm tired of the WOE is me attitude" post was a reactionary one not based on logic and reason because I used Annie24's statements to prove Corvidae's point.

 

I'll let you all decide....

[annie24]

Oh wow - I want to say this nicely - it sounds like you have a little too much time on your hands, to be researching every post I have put up and what time I did it at.

 

Corvidae has had several posts along the topics of male/female communications and dating. Now - "woe is me" is in response specifically to many of his posts. Now, my response was because the same type of topic had been posted by him many times.

 

However, with Kyoshiro, that was the first time, to the best of my recollection, that I saw this type of post from him, and i was trying to be sensitive to him.

 

I wasn't being "as senstive" with Corvidae, because he knows, that I have told him several times that I think that he's an attractive, intelligent guy - I don't know him personally, I have no clue why he doesn't have sucess with women, but, he seems like quite a catch to me - I don't think he should complain...

 

Furthermore, Kyoshiro's post seemed much more... I don't know the words... really really upset, and I wanted to be supportive towards him. Whereas Corvidae's post was more of a general discussion.

[annie24]

Note the date and time this was posted. It was posted after the "I'm tired of the WOE is me attitude" post. Now using logic and reason, the sudden change in attitude is either one, a total reversal of point/stance/opinion on this subject or two, the "I'm tired of the WOE is me attitude" post was a reactionary one not based on logic and reason because I used Annie24's statements to prove Corvidae's point.

 

Dude... It's not always about YOU!!! this was just something that I said, in general.

 

Like I said before, you can't make broad sweeping generalizations about 50% of the human race. I bet the Brad Pitts of this world have an easier time finding dates than the ugly/fat/smelly girls of this world. And unless you've been a female for a period of time, and then a male, I don't see how you can say, 'oh - women or men have this part of their lives easier.'

 

Imagine your "dating" scenario as college applications. Imagine that women could not apply to a college that they wanted. they could only go to schools that sought them out and sent them an application. What if all the colleges were crappy? What if she really wanted to go to Harvard, but Harvard didn't notice her? Now, she is supposed to be happy that Monkey's Eyebrow University and City Dump College have sent her offers - that gives her the advantage???

 

Just because random men ask us out doesn't put us at any sort of advantage.

[Mun]

Annie, you beat me to the punch.

 

Truth is we are not going to agree because we don't see this from the other persons perspective. To men we have it easier in the dating world... to women, men have it easier in the rest of the world...maybe things even out in the end somewhere...

[CG]

Using logic and reason to argue with the ladies tend to get them angry.

 

I find this statement highly offensive. I'm in a PhD program in biochemistry. I use logic and reason everyday.

 

And if you look throughout the world, for example, in saudi arabia, women are completely separated from men, they are not allowed to drive, not allowed to vote, at work,

 

You are right in terms of what you are saying. Women in in some middle eastern countries are deprivied of right. Yes, PhD women tend to be smart and use logic a lot.

But how relevant it to dating? We are talking about dating and using logic in dating...

 

To be specific here is an example about women, logic and dating:

if a guy is accomodating, if he agrees to see the movies she wants, if he easily accepts her new schedule, if he accommodates his schedule to please her - immediately most women would think "this guy is desperate."

Next step - is to basically dump him for another guy, who plays it well: appear busy, and not accomodating.

What is the logic in this dating example? Or I missing somehting?

Again, women are able to use logic in science.. and well everywhere.

But most women choose not to use it in dating.

[annie24]

I think that there are lots of men that have emotions when it comes to dating. So, yes, i think that a statement like that is also offensive. However, if I were a man, I'm sure that i would find it more offensive.

 

Your example, of the woman who thinks that a guy is desperate because he lets her choose the movie and her choose the schedule - it makes no sense to me. I've never considered a man desperate because he lets me choose the movie and lets me choose when we go on the date. If he has a flexible schedule, and the woman has a rigid work schedule, it makes sense for the person with the rigid schedule to suggest times for dates - that goes both ways.

 

There isn't a lot of logic in dating. It's about chemistry, and sparks, and compatibility. if there was logic in dating, then we could submit scores to a computer, that would tell us who our soul-mate is, and that would be the end of that. And if you say, "well, there's E-harmony," I actually tried it. I met several men, who, obviously, on paper I was compatible with, but when we met in person, the spark wasn't there.