Dating and Sex: Double Standard

[annie24]

Whenever I hear stuff like that, I think, "Wow - now here's a man who's pissed off that no woman wants to sleep with him!" Angry, frustrated little man.

[corvidae]

Well I found that article interesting, but I don't really know the facts of the case so I can't really comment. I do think the author is using the term 'feminism' a bit to liberally as a negative term. There are such things as feminists that strive for equality for women, particularly in industries where the CEOs are old men, brought up in the 50s and instilled with a chauvinist attitude. In other words, there are still plenty of inequalities in the work place. On the other hand, I sometimes refer to a 'feminist zeitgeist' running through the media, and I stand by that. I think that today it has become acceptable to be proud to be a woman, but not to be a man. I see countless articles on how girls now outperform boys in exams, or how women are in fact better at this and that compared to men. One MP in the UK recently said, in no uncertain terms, that women were brighter than men. How much uproar was there? None. Imagine if he had said the reverse? Now, getting back on subject, it was often seeing the misrepresentation of men in the media that led me to write on these boards. Let me use an example:

 

A recent article in an e-magazine discussed the nature of the 'first move' between men and women. To summarise, the point of the article was that women are much better at body language than men because that part of their brain is better developed, so when women send out signals to men and the men don't approach them, it's because the men are not good enough at body language to recognise the signals. The article was written with the air of 'don't worry women, you're doing fine, the problem is with the men'. Now I simply had to write back with a counter-argument against this ridiculous pandering to the 'feminist' view. Anyone with a modicum of intellect can shoot holes in that argument, but, and here's the thing, no-one else did. In a similar vein you have people harping on about the 'double standard'. Christina Aguilera made a song about it for goodness sakes! Lots of young, impressionable girls are going to hear that and base their opinions on it! Yet the explanation for it is simple and indisputable, just no-one seems to want to discuss it! Why? Because it criticises women, and that just isn't fashionable these days. It must be the men's fault. I'm not having a dig at women, I'm just trying to represent a view I feel is typically ignored these days.

[Kitz]

Whenever I hear stuff like that, I think, "Wow - now here's a man who's pissed off that no woman wants to sleep with him!" Angry, frustrated little man.

 

Hahahahaha. High five! You legend. XD

 

So men have to put in the effort to approach women. We have to be pregnant for 9 months, and then go through giving birth, we get periods, PMS, back pains.. it all evens out, i'm sure.

[corvidae]

So men have to put in the effort to approach women. We have to be pregnant for 9 months, and then go through giving birth, we get periods, PMS, back pains.. it all evens out, i'm sure.

 

No, sorry I don't the connection here. I sprained my thumb the other day.

[doorik]

So men have to put in the effort to approach women. We have to be pregnant for 9 months, and then go through giving birth, we get periods, PMS, back pains.. it all evens out, i'm sure.

 

Your analogy makes no sense. What corvidae is writing about is a societal construct that CAN be changed. For example, Annie24 was thinking of chatting up a fella a a StarBucks. If you want to make a more proper analogy it would be "Men lose their hair, don't live as long etc. Women have to be pregnant for 9 months, get PMS etc. (I'm leaving out back pains because EVERYONE gets back pains).

 

Also, Annie 24 you should give yourself a Barry Horowitz for considering chatting up that dood at your local StarBucks - Well done!!! Break down those societal contructs (a "Barry Horowitz" is when an individual pats himself or herself on the back. Named after a Wrestler in the 80s-90s who did it often).

[al7]

Your analogy makes no sense.

 

If you are as a gender entitle to some privileges, you will defend them with some sense or no sense at all. It is not about logc and what makes sense. It is about the gender of the author. Each person will defend their own gender stereotypes, especially those that benefit their gender.

 

Conclusion? Do not expect much sense at all, since stereotypes themself have no sense.

[David Shade]

Hey corvidae,

You have a lot of self limiting beliefs. You are interpreting the world in a manner to excuse your inability to get off your rump and do something. The typical complaint of men: "Women have all the power."

 

A woman can walk into any bar and take a man home in 5 minutes. And the more beautiful she is, the more true it is. And from that, men conclude that women have all the power, that women have all the sexual choice.

 

Last weekend my girlfriend and I were at the club and we were talking with a number of beautiful young ladies. These were all high self-esteem intelligent women, who also happened to be genetically fortunate enough to be adorably cute with incredible bodies. I asked the ladies if they thought that women had all the sexual power. They all emphatically said no. My girlfriend pretty much summed it up when she said:

 

"Imagine what it would be like to be a beautiful woman. Really, what is it like to be a hot woman? You get perks. You don't have to put air in your tires. You get offered free drinks. All that stuff. But you get objectified. And being objectified SUCKS! There is no power in that. Sure, you could walk into any bar and take a man home in 5 minutes, but you don't know him, and you would just be an object, so the sex would suck. There is no power in that. I have a high threshold for pleasure because I've had good lovers. And the sex probably wasn't that good the first time, it was a bit awkward, but it became awesome as we became closer. That is what women want. We do not have any granted power to get what we want. We want to meet a man who will be exciting to be with. We like the build up. It is exciting to be with an exciting man."

 

I have talked to many many women about this topic, and they all say about the same thing. "Yeah, I can pick up a man any day. Yeah, a woman decides when the sex will happen. But there's no power in that!"

 

I have never subscribed to the belief that women have all the power. Look at the reality of the situation. The reality is that women are unfulfilled. They lay awake in bed at night fantasizing about what it would be like to be with a truly exciting man. They read 400 page romance novels to vicariously live the life they really wanted to live. Thirty percent of women have never had an orgasm. Seventy percent of women have never had an orgasm in intercourse. Reality points to the fact that women have a lot of frustrations.

 

David Shade

link removed

[annie24]

I agree with David. Yes, 9 times out of 10, I can convince a guy to go home with me. (Ok - I'm a bit of a hussy. I've had some drunken nights in college, but honestly, didn't we all?)

 

Yeah, I can get a guy to go home with me, no problem, but, the thing is... these guys *magically* disappear. No more phone calls or anything! No second date! *poof!* gone. (After all, the guy just think, "Wow - Annie's a hussy! I don't want to be with a girl like that!)

 

So, yeah, there IS no power in that! A one time fling? Very easy to get. A 2nd or 3rd date.... A man who truly loves me? That's a lot harder to come by.

[al7]

1. Yes, 9 times out of 10, I can convince a guy to go home with me.

 

2. Yeah, I can get a guy to go home with me, no problem, but, the thing is... these guys *magically* disappear. No more phone calls or anything! No second date!

 

3. the guy just think, "Wow - Annie's a hussy! I don't want to be with a girl like that!)

 

1. Annie, it is a proof that women got all the power. Hm.

 

2. Why? Cuz if it happened, in that case you didn't take time to get to know him: if he likes you, not only as a sexual partner.

I realize it must be so... tempting to use this power of attraction, but if you have a different goal (for example a relationship) then you take you time to get to know him and hwat he likes.

Here you mix two things: women's power and women's goal.

Women do have the power, but they have somewhat different goals.

 

3. Some guys may think like this. But the actual problem is he wants to have sex with you more than to get to know you as a person.

If you find a guy who likes you as a person he wont run away.

[annie24]

I was reading a book by John Gray (the man who wrote the Venus and Mars books). He says, "Sex is to men, what marriage is to women."

 

You look at it like women have all the power because getting sex is not a challenge. however, I am saying that it's a HUGE challenge to meet a man who really wants to get to know me, and possibly marry me. One night - a few hours in bed, then it's all over. Not even a phone call. How is that supposed to make a woman feel powerful? If I have quite a few drinks, and I meet a man somewhere, and I want to go off and fool around with him, then I have accepted the fact that I probably won't hear from him again.

 

It's very easy to make a man be by your side for 12 hours, but I'd rather have a guy who's devoted to me, and who will be there with me always, when I'm sick, when things are bad, etc. Now that's power!

[al7]

1. Certainly agree with you.

 

2. Don't you know you have to look at her ACTIONS? Sure they will tell you what is socially ACCEPTABLE, not what really is true.

 

3. In my opinion this is a good example of a gender limiting opinion.

She has never been a man... she cannot imagine what it is like to be a man. She think she got no power since what she wants is slightly different from what her power gives her directly.

 

C'mon!!! You gotta be fair in your judgemnts!

Look: in order to get a soulmate\partner\lover\spouse a person should first get a date, then firgure out if the date is fine and then proceed on the next level.

Now, pretty women have never had problems with getting a date.

And if they end up with a jerk they should blame only their own bad judgment. Makes sense?

What about men? Men do not get dates AUTOMATICALY just cuz they are men. They should work hard to get even one single date...and face rejection and tests on each level of this dating process.

Why? Cua women got the power of chooseing a man or rejecting him. Power to attract men with no work.

Men in fact got no power whatsoever in terms of dating.

If I am wrong please state what power men have?

 

4. Because women mix up their power and their goal.

They can attract men, they can do whatever they want with them... but they do not want super obedient men nor they want to boss them around much. When you ask women about power, they got all confised goals and power.

Example: I have a power to open this door, ok, I got a key. But I really do not need to go there. Though it helps: once I open the door, if I am smart enough I can find a key to another door that I neeed to open.

 

5. Can you state what power men have these days in our modern time?

 

6. Thats is true. Women could be frustrated, so does it show they got no power?? Example: I see a powerful truck outisde... does it mean it never breaks down? or it doesnt ever need an oil change?

 

Anyway, the question is what kind of power men have these days?

[al7]

1. I was reading a book by John Gray (the man who wrote the Venus and Mars books). He says, "Sex is to men, what marriage is to women."

 

2. You look at it like women have all the power because getting sex is not a challenge. however, I am saying that it's a HUGE challenge to meet a man who really wants to get to know me, and possibly marry me. One night - a few hours in bed, then it's all over. Not even a phone call. How is that supposed to make a woman feel powerful?

 

1. I probably most of his books. And mostly I agree with him. He is good.

 

2. Annie, you understand that all people have to go through the same dating stages: find a person, evaluate his\her at first.

Now you are saying "it's a HUGE challenge to meet a man who really wants to get to know me"

Excuse me... do you think men do not have that HUGE challenge to find a women who want to get to know them? They do have it too.

But women can easily filter out 10 men in a day, since a woman donst need to do anything to find a man. Guys cannot do that: they shoudl work HARD to get one date in a week or weeks!!

Now do you see where women got the power? Women's power let them easily conduct this filtering process, they do not spend efforting in finding men, they simple wait and filter.

Men do all the work, and face all the challanges on their ways.

[annie24]

You don't see the challenges? You know, I've asked out tons of men - some have said yes, some have said no. I know how it feels both ways.

 

You make it sound like all us women do is sit back and bat our eyelashes! And then you complain that men are powerless. Make up your mind!

 

Women have the children. It happens all the time, a man leaves his wife for his busty secretary. The wife now has 3 kids to raise. Women can't take off and leave as easily as men can.

 

Women face challenges all the time. For example, last summer, I went out with a group of friends. This couple tried to set me and this other guy up - we are both friends of the couple. Afterwards, this guy said to my friend, "Don't you know any girls who are thinner and prettier?" (I'm a size 8. Actually, I wasn't quite fond of him when I met him, but at least I didn't say anything like that. And actually, I hear that he is now a borderline alcoholic, and hasn't had a date since last summer. I wonder why....) I don't care that nothing happened between us, and I don't care that I'm not his type... I'm just trying to explain what we deal with on a daily basis. It's not like he was Brad Pitt or anything himself.

 

But anyways, women are all the time objectified. You go up to the girls you think are pretty, but how many hours at the gym do they spend, and how much time at the beauty salon do they spend trying to make themselves beautiful so that they can attract men? Quite a few!

[al7]

1. Really? I am impressed.. I guess I didn't realized it before.

Kudos to you!

I thought all men were so happy to get asked out.....

 

2. I do not make it.. it is just true: you just said it: in order to get a date you dont need to do anything. That is what I meant by "doing nothing".

 

3. Well it is not about dating, right? it is about next phase: relationships.

We are talking about dating, choosing a partner. Right?

In dating men do not have power as much as women do.

 

4. I dont get you: what is big deal about it? You didn't like that guy anyway...plus I prefer curvy women, I don't get that guy.

 

You can go on a date with another one on the same day!

I, as a guy, cannot go on a next day in weeks!! Plus I have to work really hard to get that date. You dont have to.

Do you see the difference?

 

5. Well for me her accomplishments in a gym is nothing. I say what I think here. I dont care about how fit she is, what I care about is chemistry...of course there should be some common sense, 200lbs and 5'2 is a little bit.. too much. But you dont need to go to a gym at all, some average balanced diet thats all you need.

Yeah, there are many guys who want "hot, athletic body". i have no idea why they want it. To me it is not hot nor it is feminine.

[Mun]

I have a friend who makes a decent living, she has her own apartment ( no rommate) and a new truck and is continuing her education. She has come to the conclusion that all this is pushing men away from her. They cannot handle her independence, her success and her self-confidence. She is trading in her truck for a more modest car in order to help herself find a mate. Why would we as women have to "downsize" in order to not intimidate men? Where is the power there?

 

I don't see the power in waiting around to get asked out by men I don't like. I have asked men I do like but they say no. Where is the power there?

 

I'm also a divorced mother with three children to raise ( all by myself) and I'm continuing my education. I think most men find a ready made family too much for them...so they reject me before getting to know me....where is the power there?

 

I'm 36, so I'm no longer a cute young 20 something and most men want a young woman to have babies with ( even the guys my age want to show off a young thing) So I get passed over. Where is the power there?

 

Just like women will never know what it is like to be a man.. You Al7 will never know what it is like to be a woman and all the things we have to deal with on a daily basis. We may have different challenges but we have them nonetheless. You only see things from your point of view, but that does not mean that the other person has it easier. They just have a different set of obstacles to overcome. It's not an easy task whether you are man or woman to find a partner.

 

Ain't that the truth.

[corvidae]

There are some very interesting points in the last few posts, and I'd like to answer some of them with my views, which may lead to a long post, but I ask you to bear with me.

 

Firstly I'd like to respond to the accusation that I have conjured this view of the world in order to excuse my own inactivity (the David Shade post). Well, I merely state how I see the world through my own experiences and through empirical evidence. That is all I can do, as I have no way of forming a truly objective opinion, I can only say things how I, personally, see them. Now, as for making no effort, well I feel certain in saying that I have made more effort with women in my young life than most women will make with men in the entirety of their lives. I gave up, and made the choice to give up, because I felt I was being made to jump through hoops. I felt the system was inequitable.

 

As for David Shade's related comments about what his female friends said, and what Anna said about not having power, I have this to say: firstly of course there are negative points to being any gender, but my point is that in obtaining the opposite sex women have the distinct advantage. Now, if you want to discuss the consequences of that, well that's a slightly different point. Women, often by refusing to put any effort in the initial stages, create a situation where the only men they meet tend to be the ones willing to approach them. I'm not going to say that all such men are small-minded, arrogant and only after sex, but such people tend to be very confident about making the first move, and thereforeeee make up a high percentage of the men that tend to approach women. So you end up with these guys, get used and complain that ALL men are like this. Read this forum, read the posts by the shy men who have trouble approaching women. Do you think they are so shallow? You'd be better off with them, but you never meet them do you? Why? Because there is a direct correlation between intelligence and sensitivity and not being willing to approach. This is a generalisation so please don't start on with the "Oh but I'm intelligent and I approach...." there are exceptions to even the most stringent rule. I agree with Al7: there's a big difference between having the power, and how you use it.

 

So let me ask you David Shade, and your lady friends, if you are a 'hot' woman then of course there will be meat-heads just after your body, but do you think you will be any less attractive to the men who aren't like that? Do you think you will have any more trouble getting intelligent men after something more? When you have a large number of people to choose from, you can hardly blame anyone else if you make the wrong choice.

 

Al7 one made another excellent point. So women can have ten dates in a week in they want, but it's unlikely that any of those men will be right for them. Well, how do you think it is for a man? Getting one date every ten weeks, but is she any more likely to be 'the one'. Well is she? OK, men want sex, but we also want good relationships that last and give us something else in life, but let me ask you, is a woman who can grab a man whenever she wants one more or less likely to find the right person, when compared to a man who has to work weeks to get one woman? At my current rate of one woman every 26+ years, how likely is it that I'm going to find 'the one'?

 

Lastly Muneca, you're turning this discussion into something it was never meant to be. You've related that you've had problems, and you're a woman. Well, I'm a man and I've had some terrible times in my life, and as far as relationships go I may never have one again. Do you know what that feels like? So what? We all suffer one way or another. But in this PARTICULAR situation, i.e being able to get dates and, related, relationships, women have it much easier. Nothing anyone has said has thus far demonstrated otherwise.

[Mun]

I think you missed my point. I was trying to illustrate how I have not had it any easier just because I am a woman...so al7's argument that women have all the power is a little off base. Being a woman does not guarantee a date every weekend...we are not fighting men off with a stick like he would have us believe. I do agree that it's not easy for men... just like it's not easy for women. We simply face different challenges.. that's all I'm saying and that did pertain to this discussion.

 

You know I kinda feel this debate is useless unless we start thinking of ways to narrow this divide between the sexes. We could complain until the end of time about how things are unfair to either sex...but that wouldn't solve a thing. We're not going to change things that way.

 

How 'bout some suggestions as to how we can make things easier for men like yourself who can't get dates--or get constantly rejected? This topic has generated some pretty good response from intelligent minds...I'm sure we can come up with some ideas. I think that would be a step in the right direction.

[CG]

How 'bout some suggestions as to how we can make things easier for men like yourself who can't get dates--or get constantly rejected? This topic has generated some pretty good response from intelligent minds...I'm sure we can come up with some ideas. I think that would be a step in the right direction.

 

For example: sing up for a online dating site. Put some time into getting good pics, wirte a decent profile. After you go on 10 first dates, you will figure out that on in many of them you reject women, not only women reject you.

And after "50 First dates" you are almost guranteed to find somebody who are really compatible with you and may qualify for a candidate to a soulmate...

 

But the problem is.. some of us feel out sprirt is crippled by frustration already. How to overcome this?

[corvidae]

I didn't mean to just complain. I thought that if women understood the difficulties faced by men, then it might make the whole process easier. Communication leads to better understanding after all. Oh well.

 

A lot of my friends found people through common interests, like theatre. The theatre group I was in spawned three marriages!

[CG]

I didn't mean to just complain. I thought that if women understood the difficulties faced by men, then it might make the whole process easier. Communication leads to better understanding after all. Oh well.

 

Women want anything but appear to be "easy". Any woman will tell you that. So we can conclude: women inherently do not want to make this process easier...This is a gender part of the answer.

The people part is that if you got some perks, male or female,

and suddenly sombody comes up with the idea "hey, lets makes it easier for me too for your expenses"... believe you would not be willing to

sacrifice your perks just because somebody else wants to have same perks as you have right now.

These two makes dating a very "biased" process, where women have much more perks than men.

 

Communication makes it easier, though do women really want to make it easier for men by losing some dating privileges? Nobody would want that.

So you are ritgh, it all start from willingness to communicate...

[annie24]

I didn't mean to just complain. I thought that if women understood the difficulties faced by men, then it might make the whole process easier. Communication leads to better understanding after all. Oh well.

 

Women want anything but appear to be "easy". Any woman will tell you that. So we can conclude: women inherently do not want to make this process easier...This is a gender part of the answer.

The people part is that if you got some perks, male or female,

and suddenly sombody comes up with the idea "hey, lets makes it easier for me too for your expenses"... believe you would not be willing to

sacrifice your perks just because somebody else wants to have same perks as you have right now.

These two makes dating a very "biased" process, where women have much more perks than men.

 

Communication makes it easier, though do women really want to make it easier for men by losing some dating privileges? Nobody would want that.

So you are ritgh, it all start from willingness to communicate...

 

Geezzz.. you make it sound like there's some world-wide conspiracy against men. Communication... WE'RE the ones witholding it? Isn't the butt of every joke on TV how the woman wants to talk to her man about the relationship, and he just wants to watch the game? What would you want me to do. See a handsome man at the supermarket say, "Hi! I'm single. Are you single? I'm looking for a relationship that will result in marriage on a time scale of 1-3 years. How about you?"

 

I think it's time to put an end to this "women have it easier" or men have to work this much harder. I think it all depends on the person.

[CG]

it sound like there's some world-wide conspiracy against men. Communication... WE'RE the ones witholding it? Isn't the butt of every joke on TV how the woman wants to talk to her man about the relationship, and he just wants to watch the game?

 

See a handsome man at the supermarket say, "Hi! I'm single. Are you single? I'm looking for a relationship that will result in marriage on a time scale of 1-3 years. How about you?"

 

I think it's time to put an end to this "women have it easier" or men have to work this much harder. I think it all depends on the person.

 

 

Lets look at from a sociological point of view: that type of "conspiracy" always evolves when there is some groups of people (not necessarily men or women, people of any gender) that have perks. This group usually is willing to overlook ideas of other people who got no perks and want to make this sutuation more fair by getting their share of perks by the expense of the first group.

If you are as a student can have some really good discounts, and suddenly some other non-student people started saying Hey it is all should be fair, lets get rid of all perks for students... well, you are not gonna like it, since they simply want something good you were entitle for years.

So it is not so much about genders, it is about socio-physchology sort of.

 

You are right about that women wants to communicate when they are in a relationships more than men. It is not about dating, it is about relationships... Men think by being silent they can get away with it by not doing anything. They hope they will get what they want just by being silent.

 

When it comes to dating women are the ones who are not so willing to communicate, since they do not want to lose the perks or seem "easy".

 

If we think about approaching.. you have your standards, I hope they are mostly about his character. If you are confident enough, you can

say whatever you want to a man in a supermarket... not feel embarrassed at all. How come? Because you know you have standards you know what you want in a man, you feel confident about what you want. Think about it: if he is the man you want.. he will accept any kind of your approach.. it will not matter to him, since he is trully into you.

 

"Hi! Are you married? ....Pause... No...I need your opinion

for the study I am doing. If a girl is looking for a relationship that will result in marriage...Should she be direct about it?"

 

99% of guys would melt immediately...

[annie24]

Nope - sorry. I don't accept broad sweeping generalizations. There have been plenty of times that I have approached guys myself. I remember a cute guy in my physics class - I tried to chat with him a few times, but he didn't seem too interested. So, I asked him for his e-mail address so we could study together one day, I e-mailed him, and he never e-mailed me back.

 

Another example? I'm a pretty confident person - I was at a high school, I saw a guy standing against the wall, he looked bored, so I asked him to dance. He looked me up and down, and then shook his head 'no.' Now, trust me, I'm not chopped liver, but these guys certainly didn't "melt" as you think they would if they got approached by a girl.

 

That's just one example. I have plenty of examples both ways, where I initiated and it led to a date, and I have others where I initiated, and I didn't even get a response back. I also know TONS of girls who have initiated things with guys - where they go up to them and say hi. Their experiences have also been positive and negative.

 

So, I think it's just about the guy. Perhaps those guys I approached alread had gfs. Or, since they were hot, they probably got approached by so many girls that my approaching them was nothing to them. Either way.... I don't think it's a simple issue as you think it is.

[CG]

Perhaps those guys I approached alread had gfs. Or, since they were hot, they probably got approached by so many girls that my approaching them was nothing to them. Either way.... I don't think it's a simple issue as you think it is.

 

Either he is really hot or he is not just into you (which is ok).

May I assume you don't want to start talking to guys first because of some previous negative experience?

[annie24]

Perhaps those guys I approached alread had gfs. Or, since they were hot, they probably got approached by so many girls that my approaching them was nothing to them. Either way.... I don't think it's a simple issue as you think it is.

 

Either he is really hot or he is not just into you (which is ok).

May I assume you don't want to start talking to guys first because of some previous negative experience?

 

You shouldn't assume anything That's why I'm trying to say. Sometimes I talk to guys first, sometimes I don't. Pretty much depends on how I feel when I wake up in the morning.

 

And if a guy is just not that into me, that's ok. But, I think if I approached 100 single men, I don't think that 99 would be "melting" and only 1 would look at me like I was nuts/ugly/crazy. I don't know... maybe 70/30?