Dating and Sex: Double Standard

[corvidae]

I think you're over-emphasising the 'women suffer so much in all other aspects of life' attitude. I know there are still inequalities in the system, and I am as appalled by them as anyone else, but certainly in the UK things are evening out. My female friends comprise doctors, solicitors, PhD researchers, an engineer and a couple of teachers. The highly-paid, well-respected career I'm about to go into has a higher intake of women than men. I know there are issues to being woman, but they are irrelevant to this discussion. I could talk about other things wrong with being a man and how tough it is, but let's take it on balance that men and women each have their own crosses to bear, specific to their genders, and then focus on the SPECIFIC issue in discussion which is that of dating.

 

Dooriks posts make the point very well that you can't bring in other unrelated issues, as then the discussion becomes a general men vs. women, who has the most problems. I'm saying women have it easier on the dating front. I'll stand by that. I know three people who have never had a date and they are all men. I don't know a single woman my age who has not had a relationship. All the posts on these boards entitled 'never had a partner' '24 and never been kissed' are all by men.

 

There seems to be some confusion that people think I am saying that women have it easier in that they find Mr. Right evertime they go out to the pub. I'm not saying that. Yes, some of your relationships end in tears, yes some men you meet will be jerks. But that's life isn't it? You take the good with the bad. You have to understand that it's so much better than being excluded, to not feel a thing. And at least you get to know you're attractive! You have SOMETHING.

 

Shakespeare said it best: "T'is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all"

[heydrich]

Hi Corvidae.

Although, like a good English guy, you omit such gory details, I must tell you that I am a 33-year-old guy who is still a virgin, brother to a 39-year-old guy who is also a virgin, and I took my PhD in England some years ago (although I am not English).

I think your situation was somewhat worsened by cultural factors. Without any intent of insulting the English people, I must confess they are one of the most un-sensuous people in the world (the american people follow at a short distance), and sexual matters aren't easy there. I would say that, if it weren't for pubs and drunkenness, sex would be virtually non-existent in England. So if you aren't a drinker (as I was not at the time), things can get really complicated sex-wise.

I spent 3 years in a hall of residence of a university without talking to anyone (it was an unbelievably stupid attitude, I agree), and almost no one talked to me (a notable exception being an american girl, who soon got discouraged).

Although my personal history is somewhat different from yours (I never participated in the organization of events), I recognize my own dilemmas in your posts, which are quite well thought out and written. I myself often engage in this sort of conversation in my native language (it doesn't lead me anywhere, but who cares?)

From my adolescence to a few years ago, I had the belief (having had a reasonably brilliant academic performance) that girls would approach me due to my intellectual brilliance and eventually have sex with me. However, I did not even advertise this brilliance visibly enough, so needless to say, I have been limited to masturbation up to this very day.

However, more recently, I started meeting people, and although I haven't had sex, I think I am much closer to it. I have got some female friends with whom I can relate intellectually, and some of them are even not that ugly physically.

The most attractive ones, unfortunately, seem not to be interested in me, but as they say, as long as you don't feel humiliated in the presense of your female friends, friends and girlfriends attract other friends and girlfriends. So no one should become paralyzed just because the people that are receptive to your friendship/sexual interest aren't up to the high standards you set yourself. I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes these standards are merely devices of your mind to prolong your misery.

I attribute my lack of success with women mainly to the examples of behaviour I had at hand (my brother), the place I chose to take my PhD (England) and my lack of effort in meeting people. Now that I became more open to people, I notice that there were a couple of women who showed their interest in me already. Of course, they were not the ones I was targeting, but since they are not monstruously ugly nor stupid, I think I should not waste this opportunity for a friendship/relationship.

I can certainly relate to your complaints about the lack of initiative of women and the cultural need of men to show initiative. That is, in my view, a cultural aspect which CAN be changed, as the access of women to jobs has been changing over time. But I can also assure that there ARE women with inititiative (not necessarily ugly). You just have to be visible enough socially for them to know that you exist.

Remember that the main purpose of advetising is not to convince anyone of anything, but to reveal the existence of something.

[volution]

Exactly! Fear is such a great motivator (or demotivator!).

I think what Corvidae and I fear, in the UK in particular, is that most people who want a relationship and more specifically women, are in one, whether it is right or not.

So there isn't much chance of us perchancing upon anyone that is single AND looking. It makes us feel increasingly depressed and crestfallen that we won't get ANY relationship let alone a GOOD or RIGHT one.

[corvidae]

What a brilliant post Heydrich. I agree on your comments about the English, if it wasn't for alcohol I think we'd have a population of about 150. While people do meet in societies and social clubs, if anyone wants a date without having to wait several months they have to start going to bars and clubs and learn how to 'pull' as we call it. Outside of bars and clubs it is considered improper to recognise gender, and if you were to ask a stranger for their number in, say, a library you'd likely be arrested. Ask the same person in a bar while you may or may not get a positive response, at least you won't be considered criminally dangerous. Part of my problem is that I have made a great deal of effort with women already, I think I've been rejected some dozen times in a row now. Now you may be thinking I was only asking out stunning beauties, but you'd be doing me an injustice. I asked out women I found attractive, even if they weren't considered conventionally so. In short I feel I've done my part, and don't see why someone can't make some effort with me for a change. I'm presentable if not attractive, I'm smart, I've been led to believe I'm funny and I'm pretty successful. If a women came up to me and said 'hello' that would be about the level of effort I'm asking for. Apparently that's too much.

[annie24]

Have you tried online dating? Just wondering...

[Shidoshi]

I know you weren't asking me Annie24, but I actually wanted to try it just to see what it was like. I found that most of the women who looked interesting had a list of requirements that seemed unrealistic. I never go after women thinking about a list of criteria that she must fit. Everybody is different, I find some things attractive that are unique to certain people. I especially don't like people who have a preference for certain ethnicities, even though people say "oh its just a preference" I think theres usually more to it, and it says a lot about how close-minded a person is.

[Mun]

You know Shidoshi it's funny you say that because I have read profiles before and when I see a man who says basically " all colors, types and sizes welcome" it makes me think that man will take anything that comes along. It screams desperate to me. I don't find that appealing at all. I would rather see a man have 'some' preferences.. he knows what he likes and he lists that in his profile.

 

Now unrealistic expectations... I think alot of people have those. A man who wants a barbie type should be a ken type in my opinion .

[annie24]

Now unrealistic expectations... I think alot of people have those. A man who wants a barbie type should be a ken type in my opinion .

 

YES YES YES!!! I so agree with that! I've dated some cruel guys who critisized my appearance. I'm ok from hearing that from a personal trainer, for example, but if the guy is not hot himself, who is he to talk?

 

I did the online thing, and I really only had two requirements: That he be at least 5'9", and that he be 22-31, and have finished high school. Still, men who were older and shorter replied to my posts.

 

I agree with Muneca also about guy's requirements. Some are ok with anything and everything! It also looks like they are just looking for someone - anyone!!! It's a little desperate.

[Shidoshi]

I have read profiles before and when I see a man who says basically " all colors, types and sizes welcome" it makes me think that man will take anything that comes along. It screams desperate to me.

I get what your saying, but I don't see the "screaming" desperation in that. My point is that I like a "range" of body types, I have absolutely no preference for a certain race because the color of a person's skin is irrelevant to who they are inside. I have seen beautiful women of many different ethnicities, theres no way I would pass one up because of skin color. I've seen voluptuous as well as slim women who were very pretty. How should I describe my preferences in a profile if I have such a wide range of tastes?

Now unrealistic expectations... I think alot of people have those. A man who wants a barbie type should be a ken type in my opinion .

I definitely agree with that.

[annie24]

Well, in the section where it says, "describe your date," I've seen some met check everything: 3'0" to 8'11", every body type (skinny, slim, athletic and toned, average, a few extra pounds, curvy, voluptious, rubeneque), and every possible income level, education, religion, whatever.

 

I mean, don't they have SOME preference? Like, only christian, catholic, muslim, or jewish, but not buddhist, hare kirshna, or paganist? Or, no girls under 4'7", or over 6'9"?

 

I guess, as a female, looking at TV and the movies, and fashion magazines, looking at all the models, it's hard to believe that men exist who COMPLETELY don't have ANY preferences...

[volution]

This is what is so wrong with Dating sites...

 

99% of them are focused almost solely on Physical attributes: age, height, weight and race.

What really matters is what is inside.

There are few sites that focus solely on interests, values, hopes, dreams, beliefs etc. The ones I know about even still base their searches on age!

 

Yes - most sites have a free-text area, where you can describe yourself, and your interests, but precious few have a search function that searches these free-text areas.

 

In my past hours wasted on dating sites, I've tried to find ones where I can search the interests and text-fields, in particular for 'spiritual' people. Naively believing that 'spiritual' people would care less about physical attributes than non-spiritual people. How wrong I was.

Nearly all of them had age-ranges specified, and I was outside them.

 

So, Dating Sites are useless to me!

 

Well, in the section where it says, "describe your date," I've seen some met check everything: 3'0" to 8'11", every body type (skinny, slim, athletic and toned, average, a few extra pounds, curvy, voluptious, rubeneque), and every possible income level, education, religion, whatever.

 

I mean, don't they have SOME preference? Like, only christian, catholic, muslim, or jewish, but not buddhist, hare kirshna, or paganist? Or, no girls under 4'7", or over 6'9"?

 

I guess, as a female, looking at TV and the movies, and fashion magazines, looking at all the models, it's hard to believe that men exist who COMPLETELY don't have ANY preferences...

[doorik]

Imagine your "dating" scenario as college applications. Imagine that women could not apply to a college that they wanted. they could only go to schools that sought them out and sent them an application. What if all the colleges were crappy? What if she really wanted to go to Harvard, but Harvard didn't notice her? Now, she is supposed to be happy that Monkey's Eyebrow University and City Dump College have sent her offers - that gives her the advantage???

 

Um, I know that you won't be happy with me for doing this again, but I will try to use your example to prove Corvidae's original post - again.

 

If you apply your analogy/scenario to Corvidae's post, you are actually admitting that the ladies have the advantage. If what you wrote is true, then the fellas in your scenario would not have the opportunity to go to college at all because NO colleges are recruiting them. The ladies in your example will have a college education from, at the very least, Monkey's Eyebrow University (They specialize in Biology, anthropology, and evolution?), or City Dump College (umm, Urban Planning/Public Administration majors?), While the fellas will only have a highschool diploma - So yes, that gives the ladies an advantage.

[doorik]

@ Corvidae

 

remember when I wrote

No matter how well you articulate your thoughts, no matter how well thought out your arguments are, no matter how well you refute counter arguments, you will not get the ladies on this board or anywhere else for that matter, to admit they have an advantage in any aspect/facet of the dating game.

 

Erm,

 

 

Just because random men ask us out doesn't put us at any sort of advantage

 

Told. You. So

[Mun]

Funny Doorik. I get what you are saying. We have an advantage that even men we don't like ask us out.... whereas you don't get even girls you don't like to ask you out.. NOBODY is asking you out .

 

Wondering.. if a girl you don't like asked you out.. would you guys say YES? Would you "melt" as previously stated or would you tell that girl "no" ... in fact have any girls ever asked you Corvidae out that you turned down? and why did you turn them down ??(if you did)

[annie24]

Imagine your "dating" scenario as college applications. Imagine that women could not apply to a college that they wanted. they could only go to schools that sought them out and sent them an application. What if all the colleges were crappy? What if she really wanted to go to Harvard, but Harvard didn't notice her? Now, she is supposed to be happy that Monkey's Eyebrow University and City Dump College have sent her offers - that gives her the advantage???

 

Um, I know that you won't be happy with me for doing this again, but I will try to use your example to prove Corvidae's original post - again.

 

If you apply your analogy/scenario to Corvidae's post, you are actually admitting that the ladies have the advantage. If what you wrote is true, then the fellas in your scenario would not have the opportunity to go to college at all because NO colleges are recruiting them. The ladies in your example will have a college education from, at the very least, Monkey's Eyebrow University (They specialize in Biology, anthropology, and evolution?), or City Dump College (umm, Urban Planning/Public Administration majors?), While the fellas will only have a highschool diploma - So yes, that gives the ladies an advantage.

 

The "fellas" in this case are the college institutions. They are choosing who they send applications to. I'm not trying to suggest that men only get high school educations...

[annie24]

How can I say this any more clearly - in my point of view, having men I don't like and I'm not interested in, having these men ask me out, DOES NOT PUT ME AT ANY SORT OF 'DATING ADVANTAGE!' You don't have to believe me. It's my opinion, and we can agree to disagree.

 

But, what are YOU going to do? Keep complaining that women don't want to ask you out? Why WOULD they want to ask you out? I know that I wouldn't want to ask out someone who is generally negative and has a negative view of dating. For everyone who keeps complaining about dating, and how difficult it is to ask out women - well, if you don't like it, DON'T DO IT! And the result will be that it will greatly decrease your chances of having a meaningful relationship, but oh well. It's your life, do whatever you want.

 

You know, just tonight, I was walking home from school, and I was walking by a fraternity. The guys were on the porch, yelling out ratings of all the girls passing by as "hot or not" and rating them on a scale of 1 to 10. Yes, lovely guys. Trust me, us ladies put up with more BS than you may think.

[corvidae]

But, what are YOU going to do? Keep complaining that women don't want to ask you out? Why WOULD they want to ask you out? I know that I wouldn't want to ask out someone who is generally negative and has a negative view of dating. For everyone who keeps complaining about dating, and how difficult it is to ask out women - well, if you don't like it, DON'T DO IT! And the result will be that it will greatly decrease your chances of having a meaningful relationship, but oh well. It's your life, do whatever you want.

 

Who are you talking to? Me? It's a bit unfair. We aren't just moaning, we're giving our point of view to better aid understanding. Who is generally negative? Outside of these forums I am not negative at all, but the nature of the forum is that people talk about issues that often cause negative feelings. I don't ask women out, and I have had my chances of a relationship reduced to zero effectively, and I think that's unfair. I also think it's a silly thing to do from a woman's point of view because you then eliminate a great number of men. It's a situation that is a result of some riduculous attitudes and I'd like to go some way to changing those. When I've articulated my thoughts sufficiently, I may write into popular newspapers and magazines. Until then, I reach the people via forums such as this one.

 

 

You know, just tonight, I was walking home from school, and I was walking by a fraternity. The guys were on the porch, yelling out ratings of all the girls passing by as "hot or not" and rating them on a scale of 1 to 10. Yes, lovely guys. Trust me, us ladies put up with more BS than you may think.

 

I can see you're angered by that, and naturally so. But these people are fools. They are also the very fools that have no shame in approaching women. You think these guys have problems like the one discussed on this forum?

 

We all make our choices, and it's hard to be angry at people because they don't make the choices you want them to. But the things we decide effect others in ways we don't realise, and they come back and effect us in surprising ways also. When you tell men not to bother approaching women and that it's their funeral, they lose, but some women also. A woman may thinking she's taking the easy option by making the man do all the work, but maybe she's just setting herself up for some egotistical jerk who was in a frat at college.

 

I'm not just having a dig at women here, I think the way men behave is often ridiculous. Men chase women like dogs, it's pathetic. If men gave vastly less attention then women would not only be forced out of their slumber, they would also want to take part more.

[corvidae]

Funny Doorik. I get what you are saying. We have an advantage that even men we don't like ask us out.... whereas you don't get even girls you don't like to ask you out.. NOBODY is asking you out .

 

Wondering.. if a girl you don't like asked you out.. would you guys say YES? Would you "melt" as previously stated or would you tell that girl "no" ... in fact have any girls ever asked you Corvidae out that you turned down? and why did you turn them down ??(if you did)

 

No, I've never been asked out. Hypothetically, no I wouldn't melt. I never said I would. But I would like it, it would add to my confidence, I would feel better as a person and as a man. And no, I don't expect you to understand. There is no way you could possibly know what it feels like to have never been desired in your entire life. You can try to imagine, you can tell me to quit moaning, you can come up with some reply, but you don't know.

 

Gee, aren't I stupid. Just complaining, why don't I go and do something about it? In fact, why don't kids that have been bullied just over it? And people who are anorexic, why don't they just eat something for God's sake? Jeez, the world is full of stupid people that complain for no reason!

[annie24]

hehehe - No, corvidae, I wasn't talking to you.

 

So THAT'S the strategy... convince all the men of the world to do less asking out to "force" the women out of the slumber. That's good.

 

I do think that the frat boys have a different set of problems.

 

But, you know, I feel like dating should be something that brings joy. It shouldn't be like, "Oh gosh... I HAVE to go and do this..." with the same feelings you would have with doing your taxes. ugg... which I still haven't turned in (i'll finish this weekend). I know in reality, dating is pretty difficult and filled with crap...

 

oh well....

[doorik]

Funny Doorik. I get what you are saying. We have an advantage that even men we don't like ask us out.... whereas you don't get even girls you don't like to ask you out.. NOBODY is asking you out .

 

I think you got it Muneca. This is exactly what Corvidae is writing about when he wrote,

 

Right now I just want to be considered a part of the human race. I'd be happy to have a relationship that goes nowhere and leaves me miserable for a while because THAT'S WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE DO. They make mistakes, feel pain but have pleasure too. To just be nothing, out in limbo, no good no bad, just not looked at, not acknowledged, that's the worst. It's like being a ghost that walks among people.

[doorik]

Imagine your "dating" scenario as college applications. Imagine that women could not apply to a college that they wanted. they could only go to schools that sought them out and sent them an application. What if all the colleges were crappy? What if she really wanted to go to Harvard, but Harvard didn't notice her? Now, she is supposed to be happy that Monkey's Eyebrow University and City Dump College have sent her offers - that gives her the advantage???

 

Um, I know that you won't be happy with me for doing this again, but I will try to use your example to prove Corvidae's original post - again.

 

If you apply your analogy/scenario to Corvidae's post, you are actually admitting that the ladies have the advantage. If what you wrote is true, then the fellas in your scenario would not have the opportunity to go to college at all because NO colleges are recruiting them. The ladies in your example will have a college education from, at the very least, Monkey's Eyebrow University (They specialize in Biology, anthropology, and evolution?), or City Dump College (umm, Urban Planning/Public Administration majors?), While the fellas will only have a highschool diploma - So yes, that gives the ladies an advantage.

 

The "fellas" in this case are the college institutions. They are choosing who they send applications to. I'm not trying to suggest that men only get high school educations...

 

I understand what you meant Annie. I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not so I'll try to explain my analogy. In order for your example to be applicable, the colleges recruiting are the people asking out while the students are those being asked out. As Corvidae points out, very few ladies do the asking, hence the the fellas can't go to college(analogy is getting a date) because they have fewer opportunities/ no recruiters? Get it? Is my example too obtuse? I didn't think so because I used Annie's as the basis and it appears that Muneca got it.

[doorik]

How can I say this any more clearly - in my point of view, having men I don't like and I'm not interested in, having these men ask me out, DOES NOT PUT ME AT ANY SORT OF 'DATING ADVANTAGE!' You don't have to believe me. It's my opinion, and we can agree to disagree.

 

I enjoy debating this issue with you precisely because we disagree. What it all boils down to is my post where I wrote,

 

annie24 wrote:

Plenty of women I know, myself included, have gone out to "get men." I've asked plenty of guys out, but it usually doesn't lead anywhere. So, I actually decided to stop asking guys out because it wasn't really working for me.

 

Your statement proves Corvidae's point. No matter how many times we get rejected we are expected to go in for more. We simply do not have the luxary of the "oh well, asking girls out doesn't work for me so I'll stop doing it" mentallity

 

All things being equal - let's say 1 guy and 1 girl are at the same class/education/career level, and are attractive to the same proportion of the opposite sex, and both decide not to ask anyone out, who do you think will have more dating opportunities?

[Caldus]

corvidae, on the topic about the lack of the feeling of being desired:

 

How do you measure how happy you are? Do you measure most of your happiness on whether you feel desired by other people or not? I can definitely understand why you feel so down about this because I feel the same way sometimes. However, in my opinion, it's never a good thing to rely on other people for happiness no matter who you are. It is a great feeling to know that you can still be happy even if you had no loved ones in your life.

 

annie brings up a very good point. Dating is supposed to be fun.

 

I really do not see how women could not like someone like you corvidae. How many women have you approached in the past in total? You claim that you have met many, but how many and where do you usually meet them? Environment does play a role too.

[doorik]

Instead of writing a point that invalidates what I wrote you use logical fallicies that actually strengthen Corvidae's point of view.

 

For example,

 

The posts on Pregnancy, women in the middle east, work/earning disparity, and those loser frat boys are examples of Red herrings. This means exactly what you think it means: introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand. Not That I am saying your points/observations are not true, they are, however, irrelevant to the topic/debate.

 

The posts about " If you don't like it ,go get a sex change", and the "Why would anyone ask you out" are Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person). This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself.

 

They don't convince an impartial reader because the are, by definition, logical fallicies.

[annie24]

Pregnancy and all the other stuff isn't a red herring. Corvidae brought this all up in his original post.