Dating and Sex: Double Standard

[ForAnother]

Shidoshi, I just wanna take my hat off, sit back and *clap*. I loved your post. It was really funny/fun to read.

 

On that note. here is my advice:

 

Stop going to bars to meet women. Stop going to clubs to meet women. Get a job, join a group of some sort, bump into random people, talk to the woman that gives you coffee at startbucks. Meeting people outside of clubs gives a more 'real' face than the face your getting trying to pick up chicks at clubs...

 

Being a go-getter, if you just relax, don't really aim to get a girl, and just talk and be a normal cool fun guy, girls are gonna like you.

 

If your annoying, you talk about everything and anything, and just start going into star trek stuff at the wrong times, it becomes boring and uninteresting to a girl.

 

Who cares if you have to make the move, man up and do it... don't think twice about it. You get curious go investigate, be pro-active.

 

People that aren't are never leaders, people that never push and never try will never do anything. So don't sit back and pout and wonder why we have to make moves and women have it easier or a better chance at finding guys (cuz they sure as heck don't)..

 

ForAnother

[corvidae]

Complaining that men or women get the short end of the stick doesn't really get you anywhere. What DOES help is actually going out and doing something about it!

 

Well I resent that a little as it assumes that my approach to the problem is to sit at home and grumble. I come on these boards to both vent and to try to find answers to these questions. The boards are a very specific forum, and are not representative of how I conduct my general life. To those that say "just go out there and have fun and things will happen naturally", why do you assume that's not what I/we do? I happen to be a very sociable and friendly person. Certainly in the past, when I was a student, I went out all the time! Parties, bars, clubs...I was involved in theatre stuff (I wrote, directed, performed), I was in lots of clubs and societies. I only really started on these boards a long long time after I realised there was a problem. Do you think I haven't tried the "just get out there and do it" solution? Do you really think that wasn't the first thing I tried?! Let me tell you I've put the work in, I really have, I've been rejected more times in my life so far that most women will in a life-time.

 

And here's a tip for some of you who "can't get a date" and can't figure out why: STOP TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT! Overanalyzing things will simply make your situation worse. We aren't always meant to know the answers. People just need to let it happen in its own time- remember the song "You Can't Hurry Love".

 

Perhaps I'm being unfair by saying this but...easy for you to say. Try reaching the age of 26 and never having anyone being interested in you and then have that happy-go-lucky attitude! I don't mean that in a rude way, I know that sometimes people make problems where there are none, but sometimes, just sometimes, there REALLY IS a problem that needs looking at. As for self-reflection, I've done plenty of that. If you've ever read any of my other posts you'll know that for a long time I thought that my appearance was the cause of my problems, I was made to believe I was ugly. I thought it was all my fault.

[annie24]

That is why, even today, it is the man's job to seduce the woman, and why women play hard to get. It's all in our instincts. Perhaps the double standard is unfair, but then so is placing the burdens of seduction entirely on men. We cannot remove one inequality while ignoring another. If women want a more equitable role, then they have to take half the bad as well as half the good.

 

Ok - so we agree that there is a double standard, and that men are biologically the pursuers, and women are the "acceptors" of the advances. And in your quote, you're telling women that if they want a more equitable role, then they have to also start doing seducing.

 

But, when a woman goes out and has sex with a man early on, instead of the guy saying, "Wow - this woman is seducing me - she must really like me!" He says, "Oh - she's a woman of few morals. She must be trash. She's not gf material."

 

Perhaps the men should start being more accepting of the advances of women.... and trust me... we do come on to men!

 

Which brings me to my next point... Corvidae - I'm sure that somewhere in the last 26 years, some girl has found you attractive/interesting. However, you probably either 1) didn't feel the same way about her, or 2) you didn't pick up on her signals.

 

All I know is that I have a lot of guy friends, and some guys tend to only ask out girls who are "out of their league." Honestly - maybe you've just been asking out the wrong girls.

[al7]

1. There is a big difference here: if a man likes a woman and they had sex early on and the man is into relationship then he thinks

"Wow - this woman is seducing me - she must really like me!".

It is mainstream thinking.

 

2. Maybe what happens is women advances are invisble to men, if you just looked at him, he would not get what is that about: you look at a beatuful picsture behind him or you like him. Men do not pick up indirect signaks and I dont get why women STILL think men do pick up those subtle signals?

 

3. I am sure it is true for both sexes..some women may look only at some super handsome dudes who alreadey have like 10 gf. Sure after that women are a bit perplexed: how come he is not loyal?

[al7]

for a long time I thought that my appearance was the cause of my problems, I was made to believe I was ugly. I thought it was all my fault.

 

Ok, since now you know you got decent looks (many people told you so here for exmaple) it is irrelevant what you thought to what you think right now. Appearance might be not perfect, what natters is that social skills that we lack. You gotta first ADMIT you do not own good social skills, and then work from there, i.e. do something (maybe very simple) to gain some social skills.

Let me ask you: in general are you a social person? You got to parties?

any clubs? have friends? etc.

[annie24]

2. Maybe what happens is women advances are invisble to men, if you just looked at him, he would not get what is that about: you look at a beatuful picsture behind him or you like him. Men do not pick up indirect signaks and I dont get why women STILL think men do pick up those subtle signals?

 

I don't mean those super invisible signals. What I mean is, perhaps, there was a girl in your past that always called you, always needed to ask for your opinion on something, or always came over to borrow your CDs or something. Chances are, she may have liked you, but just been too shy to make some kind of move. They say whoever is near you likes you...

[al7]

I don't mean those super invisible signals. What I mean is, perhaps, there was a girl in your past that always called you, always needed to ask for your opinion on something, or always came over to borrow your CDs or something. Chances are, she may have liked you, but just been too shy to make some kind of move. They say whoever is near you likes you...

 

Gotcha. never seen anything in mylife, that why I think female stalkers and aliens from Mars are similarly non existent species...

Although I remember some girl were showing interest, but the

disparity in looks were more than I could tolerate.

I mean, people should go for kinda similar people: I would not approach any models for example.

[corvidae]

Which brings me to my next point... Corvidae - I'm sure that somewhere in the last 26 years, some girl has found you attractive/interesting. However, you probably either 1) didn't feel the same way about her, or 2) you didn't pick up on her signals.

 

All I know is that I have a lot of guy friends, and some guys tend to only ask out girls who are "out of their league." Honestly - maybe you've just been asking out the wrong girls.

 

My behaviour tends to mimick that of the female of the species, in so much that I tend to wait, get to know someone, make sure I enjoy their company and converstation THEN ask them out. It's a lot of time and effort. As for someone finding me attractive, well probably, but if they don't say anything...well, that's kind of what I'm complaining about, women not taking the trouble to do anything. Sometimes it's hard to separate the personal issues from the general. Sometimes I just want women to understand how it is for men, because that view tends to be massively under-represented or distorted in the media, but I often use myself as an example as that's who I feel most qualified to talk about, not because I want people to feel sorry for me or to try and solve my personal problems.

 

You gotta first ADMIT you do not own good social skills, and then work from there, i.e. do something (maybe very simple) to gain some social skills.

Let me ask you: in general are you a social person? You go to parties?

any clubs? have friends? etc.

 

Yes, I said in my last post that I used to go out all the time. Since this year I haven't, but that's because I'm 3rd year PhD and am busy all the time. I am very sociable, generally regarded as funny and have good friends. I am not an anaemic hermit who lives in the attic and never showers. Heck, I used to be the social organiser of a club at Uni. Maybe I'm just mad, but what I want is to like someone and have them like me back (and bloody well let me know!!) and then we can work from there; maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't, but THAT'S WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE DO.

[al7]

Yes, I said in my last post that I used to go out all the time. I am very sociable, generally regarded as funny and have good friends. I am not an anaemic hermit who lives in the attic and never showers. Heck, I used to be the social organiser of a club at Uni.

 

Well, then you got all things you need: decent looks (at least not singnificatly below average for sure), decent social skills.

For that year that you didn't go out you saved some bitterness I think regarding double standards. I know it is true the double standards exists,

but we cannot do much about it.

So are you good at flirting with women? Before that year, did you ask women out, how often...did you try online dating?

I mean you are the person who knows what your real problem was: I can assure you it is not about double standards though...

I just want to point out: there is no point in figuring all things about double standards since the more you know, the more you feel the world is unfair... and it is not conducive to anything good in my opinion.

Start doing somehting in a positive direction, like figuring out what you lack (any skills, money, ability to deal with women, etc etc)

 

And.

"Sometimes I just want women to understand how it is for men, because that view tends to be massively under-represented or distorted in the media"

I agree with you here. So? If you want to change something about it you don't have to persuade just a couple of women on these forum.

It is a tiny scales.

Go for a more ambitious goal: create a group at your uni (you got the skills and experience I guess) that would make a difference in education of men and women about genders and society. You can do lots of things and most men would happily support you, besides I have never heard of any kind of organization like that before.

[PAdreamer]

Complaining that men or women get the short end of the stick doesn't really get you anywhere. What DOES help is actually going out and doing something about it!

 

Well I resent that a little as it assumes that my approach to the problem is to sit at home and grumble. I come on these boards to both vent and to try to find answers to these questions. The boards are a very specific forum, and are not representative of how I conduct my general life. To those that say "just go out there and have fun and things will happen naturally", why do you assume that's not what I/we do? I happen to be a very sociable and friendly person. Certainly in the past, when I was a student, I went out all the time! Parties, bars, clubs...I was involved in theatre stuff (I wrote, directed, performed), I was in lots of clubs and societies. I only really started on these boards a long long time after I realised there was a problem. Do you think I haven't tried the "just get out there and do it" solution? Do you really think that wasn't the first thing I tried?! Let me tell you I've put the work in, I really have, I've been rejected more times in my life so far that most women will in a life-time.

 

And here's a tip for some of you who "can't get a date" and can't figure out why: STOP TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT! Overanalyzing things will simply make your situation worse. We aren't always meant to know the answers. People just need to let it happen in its own time- remember the song "You Can't Hurry Love".

 

Perhaps I'm being unfair by saying this but...easy for you to say. Try reaching the age of 26 and never having anyone being interested in you and then have that happy-go-lucky attitude! I don't mean that in a rude way, I know that sometimes people make problems where there are none, but sometimes, just sometimes, there REALLY IS a problem that needs looking at. As for self-reflection, I've done plenty of that. If you've ever read any of my other posts you'll know that for a long time I thought that my appearance was the cause of my problems, I was made to believe I was ugly. I thought it was all my fault.

 

You're right... I have not reached the age of 26 without having a boyfriend. But that's not REALLY the issue. There are people of all ages in the same situation, and then there are those who are in MY situation. Age has nothing to do with it. I understand that it has something to do with your view point, but there are many people older than you who have been in the same situation as you, but somehow they have a more positive view on it. My fiance, for example, was your age when we met. He'd been rejected his whole life. But obviously things worked out. I really think that it has nothing to do with how men and/or women approach things... It's simply about timing and, to be honest, I think it's about fate. When you're ready, you'll find love. That is highly ambitious of me, I know... I'm a hopeless romantic. But my life- specifically in the area of love- has been much easier since I adopted that view. *shrug*

[arwen]

Hey corvidae,

 

I understand the age can be a factor- nonetheless eh, let's remind that you are 26, not 62!!! -

 

My sister is 23 now and never had a boyfriend. It gets more difficult when you are passing your twenties. This is the time really many of your friends DO have relationships, and people around you will even start to settle down.

 

It doesn't mean she is unattractive, she is a beautiful person. Both on the inside and the outside. She doesn't lack skills, although people would say she needs to be more outgoing. I don't know - she is the way she is. There is no guide about 'how to find love and soulmate'.

 

The only thing I can advise you is to be faithful to who you are, and don't let this get you down too much. You seem like a great guy (too bad you don't live in Holland, you could meet my sister, you seem her type

 

Take care!

 

Ilse.

[corvidae]

All I know is that I have a lot of guy friends, and some guys tend to only ask out girls who are "out of their league." Honestly - maybe you've just been asking out the wrong girls.

 

I object (again) to the notion of someone being 'out of my league'. This would suggest they are 'too good' for me. I have a mighty brain, I'm soon to be embarking on a successful and financially lucrative career, I'm not deformed. I'm quite offended at the notion of someone placing themselves above me just because they think they're so attractive mere mortals should not dare approach them. How do you weigh and measure a human being so! I don't object to people not finding me attractive, of course I don't, but I do object to someone thinking because they are so very gorgeous they are too good for the likes of poor lowly me. How do other people feel about this 'league' business?

 

PS. Thanks for your post Ilse.

[arwen]

To be honest, I agree with you corvidae. However, there is a difference between how things work in practice, and how they should be in our minds.

 

On the other hand, you, like me btw, are 'brainy' people. Personally, I don't think I would consider a relationship with someone who is not 'brainy' in my or a similar way. That does not mean they should be academic, it means I need to be understood in my ways of thinking and vice versa. Simply because otherwise things would be difficult in communication. I have had disagreements about this in the past, because people would be offended and take it 1. as being about their value as a person or 2. as having to do with education, both certainly not the case.

 

What I mean to say is that personally, I am (well, was actually) out there looking for someone who is on the same wave-length. Not in terms of 'higher' or 'lower' but in terms of correspondences in thinking that enable a good communication and connection between two people.

 

I was just wondering how you think about that. What are YOU looking for in a girl? According to this sort of reasoning, you could say that I would be 'out of the league' of someone that I feel cannot follow most of my ways of thinking. I have had this experience with two friends who were both interested in dating me. Without even mentioning a word like wavelength, my explanation that I miss a certain way of communication that I need in a relationship, they both responded that 'I felt too good for them because I was an MA student at uni, and they had 'no more' than a basic education'. That was their insecurity speaking, and it was certainly not how I saw that.

 

I think that attraction is both physical and mental.

 

There is no standard for attraction. People will always have their own set of features that bundled up together constitute a person they would be attracted to.

 

Ilse.

 

Sorry for the long rant.

[al7]

I object (again) to the notion of someone being 'out of my league'. This would suggest they are 'too good' for me. How do other people feel about this 'league' business?

 

corvidae,

 

What do you actually want out of this topic? Do you have some pecific questions? needs? advice? Do you want anything?

Cuz it is just seems to me that we can rant about standards forever...

It is nothing personal, I can rant too, but I guess it is better to find ways to change that somehting that you don't like about double standards.

The double standards do exists. What do you want to do about it?

Are you willing to do anything or you just want to talk without any specifc goal in mind?

[corvidae]

No, I agree with you. I've heard the idea of intellectual leagues before, but I don't think the term 'league' is necessarily apt, as what people tend to mean is someone you can, as you say, communicate with. This has very little to do with education, as there are many intelligent people who don't have formal qualifications, but might share similar interests and pursuits with you. In the UK when people say 'league' they tend to be referring to looks. This has nothing to do with how compatible you may be, as if someone is in a higher 'league' than you, then they are out of your reach. It's almost like a class system, you may be soul-mates, but it may not be, for you are from different worlds etc. etc. Let's use an example to demonstrate my point: a beautiful woman is approached by a comparatively less attractive man, seeing that he is of a certain lower standard of attractiveness, she rejects him. He might not be ugly, or even undesirable, but he was not 'in her league'. Was he compatible with her? What was his personality like? She will never know. It is irrelevent. OK, it is important to be attracted to someone physically, but that is one of many important factors. The trouble is a lot of people make it THE factor. Often very attractive women will not be approached because they are considered to be too attractive. The men that do approach are often arrogant (or drunk).

[corvidae]

corvidae,

 

What do you actually want out of this topic? Do you have some pecific questions? needs? advice? Do you want anything?

Cuz it is just seems to me that we can rant about standards forever...

It is nothing personal, I can rant too, but I guess it is better to find ways to change that somehting that you don't like about double standards.

The double standards do exists. What do you want to do about it?

Are you willing to do anything or you just want to talk without any specifc goal in mind?

 

An interesting question. How much power does one individual have in the face of social constructs that he/she was born into? You ask me if all I want to do is talk, yet surely debate, and generating debate, is in itself a worthwhile goal. I first started posting on these, and other, forums because I felt I had views that I wanted others to know about. I wanted to increase understanding about certain issues, not for any selfish objective, but just because I had these thoughts and wanted to share them. It is interesting that you say I should 'do something' about this, because I consider posting on these forums an excellent way to reach a great number of people, much more than I would by standing on a soap-box or starting a local group. People from all over the world come on here, and posts can often have thousands of viewings. I suppose I also want to hear other people's views to increase my own understanding for my own betterment. I think philosophy is typically a goalless pursuit, but that doesn't mean it is worthless. You, al7, have spent a great deal of time in debate on many of the threads I created, and in doing so have opened up new ideas and concepts that might help others. If I have a goal, I suppose it is that.

[annie24]

Well - let's say that a man walks into a coffee shop, and he decides that today, he wants to ask a girl out. He sees 15 girls. In deciding which one he wants to approach, he's looking for "his type" of girl. Say that he is looking for a pretty, nice girl who has booksmarts. So, he'll approach the girl that is carefully studying her book. He simply *thinks* when he looks at her, that she is his type. Shey may not be - this could be the first time in 5 years that she's opened a book. So, he walks up to her with a notion in his mind that they could be a good match. The girl, however, may have a notion in her mind of what her match is. And if he doesn't fit the bill, then yes, she will reject his advances.

 

Like you said, that girl will never get to know that guy for who he really is, but isn't that guy also, before he even meets the other 14 girls in the coffee shop, didn't he already sort of reject them and select "his type?"

 

So that's why - Corvidae - I said that you may be asking out the wrong girls. I agree - you are a catch, you are attractive, but not every girl wants a guy like you. But, I believe that there are girls who do want a guy like you. So, if you've been asking and asking girls out, and all you do is get rejected, I do think you're asking out the wrong girls...

[corvidae]

Yup. Makes sense.

[PAdreamer]

Suddenly I feel stupid, because now that I think about it, THAT was the obvious answer, and yet I failed to see it! LOL!

 

Anyhow, I agree. Too many people claim that they can't get a date... My question to them is how hard are you really looking? If you've only got your sights set on a specific type of person, how are you even gonna KNOW about all the great people you're missing out on?

 

Everyone has a list... At least, I'm GUESSING that most people do... A list of things they want in a significant other. But how can we REALLY know what we do and do not want when we've only allowed ourselves to interact with people who posess those qualities? I wanted a tall, dark, handsome, muscially inclined underwear model as my ideal mate. Instead I found a 5'4" pasty white Irish blonde who works for the DMV! And I'm THRILLED to have him! So you really never know!!!!!

[corvidae]

No, I don't have a list, I play it by ear. I have to be physically attracted to the person, but that doesn't mean they have movie star looks, just that I, that is me, finds them attractive. Then I guess we just have to match up personality-wise which CAN mean things like common interests, but it's more important to be on the same 'wavelength' which is something you find out about by speaking to the person. If you're similar people then you can introduce each other to your interests and perhaps they will like them. I think a list is restrictive, and people soon learn that what works on paper doesn't always (or even often) hold true practically.

[al7]

An interesting question. How much power does one individual have in the face of social constructs that he/she was born into? You ask me if all I want to do is talk, yet surely debate, and generating debate, is in itself a worthwhile goal.

 

ok, I like a debate. But I usually have a goal to figure out somehting out of a debate, to learn somehting? to get a new info? to figure out a common steretype? Somehting like that.

Anyway.. Does Romy Miller rings a bell? She is the auther of the book that was recommnded to you by sombody here... I got the book, read it and figured otu she is.. nobody. She doesn't have a degree, not she has a publications or other books. She doesn't have anything in the field of dating except maybe experience of which is quiet about....

And she managed to write a book about dating that does make a difference! Without anything!

You still think if you can make a diference?

 

ok, Here in US we hav Suze Orman, she is super popular person in the area of finance: ton sof books, video and seminar, She is on TV all the time. Does she have a college degree in finance? no. Does she have a college degree at all? no. In fact the most advertised fact about her that she had been working as a waitress for 7 years. (I don't know why they chose to advertise this fact as something important.. as if waitresses have best understanding of finance in US).

Anyway, she looks good, dresses good and extremely popular.

She explains simple things by making it even more simplier....

Her popularity is enormous...

So can you make a difference you think you you still can't since you don't have a degree yet, a job, more or experience?

Those people did, and some were super successful without anything to start with.

What stops you from wrieting a book? ok, an article in local newspaper?

organizing group? Educate people in any way?

[corvidae]

A fair point, but that's what I thought I was doing on these forums! I'm moving slowly here. I first started out by just thinking about my ideas to myself (obviously), then I would bring them up in discussions with friends, and then I moved onto posting on boards such as these. This isn't the only board I post on, I post on others as well, and if I add up the numbers of viewings of threads I've started, then thousands of people have read my thoughts and the related discussions. These are complicated issues here, and I'm anxious to learn what others think. One day, if I feel that I have something to say, I might try to write a book or start sending articles to newspapers, but not yet. For now these forums are ideal for me.

[doorik]

Cordivae,

 

Here's a quote from Andrew Sullivan's Blog that you may find interesting,

 

"It takes one's breath away to watch feminist women at work. At the same time that they denounce traditional stereotypes they conform to them. If at the back of your sexist mind you think that women are emotional, you listen agape as professor Nancy Hopkins of MIT comes out with the threat that she will be sick if she has to hear too much of what she doesn't agree with. If you think women are suggestible, you hear it said that the mere suggestion of an innate inequality in women will keep them from stirring themselves to excel. While denouncing the feminine mystique, feminists behave as if they were devoted to it. They are women who assert their independence but still depend on men to keep women secure and comfortable while admiring their independence. Even in the gender-neutral society, men are expected by feminists to open doors for women. If men do not, they are intimidating women." - the inimitable Harvey Mansfield, in the Weekly Standard.

 

The article can be found here, link removed

 

Equality in some aspect of life (which I support), status quo for others...

[doorik]

Things will even out the day men start giving birth and women everywhere take equal pay for equal work. [/color]

 

Like I said, Eqaulity in some aspects of life, status quo for others...

[al7]

Here's a quote from Andrew Sullivan's Blog that you may find interesting,

 

Why to repeat the old truth? We all know feminists are just BSing as some other people are. So what? What is the point?

We, men, have never liked feminists. It is all known thing.

...You better do somehting about it, somehting new. How about educating people, for example with an article "How to spot a feminist?"