Woe of the Beta male

[Heather Dawn]

I'll say this - a nice mix is what women want.

 

In the past, I was with either overly "alpha" men (which didn't work because I hated feeling controlled or dominated) or overly "beta" men (which also didn't work because I inadvertently steamrolled them and got bored). Then I met a guy who was the perfect combo - strong and in control when I need him to be, gentle and passive when I need it. It's perfect because he males me feel safe, protected and is a massively masculine presence, yet he's able to show sensitivity, sweetness, and lives to cuddle and be affectionate. Needless to say, he's the one for me!

[James2014]

I'll say this - a nice mix is what women want.

 

In the past, I was with either overly "alpha" men (which didn't work because I hated feeling controlled or dominated) or overly "beta" men (which also didn't work because I inadvertently steamrolled them and got bored). Then I met a guy who was the perfect combo - strong and in control when I need him to be, gentle and passive when I need it. It's perfect because he males me feel safe, protected and is a massively masculine presence, yet he's able to show sensitivity, sweetness, and lives to cuddle and be affectionate. Needless to say, he's the one for me!

 

I think that may be me, hard to say, I used to think I was pretty balanced but after spending a few years in this, I'm having trouble discerning whether or not I'm too soft. i'm not without opinion or drive, but it's been a long haul (I feel) with my ex because I felt like it was really hard to be a partner with and to her. She grew up fast and hard and is extremely independent, I found it hard to gain a foothold to relevance as a partner. Her ideas were always better and she was easily offended by a lot of things, like when I talked to her about having more discipline with her youngest she took offense to my bringing it up - stuff like that. She didn't need a lot of attention, and generally stuff like "hey need a foot rub" was rejected. I read an article recently entitled "If you want a Leader you have to let him lead" which I identified with, there wasn't a lot of room for my input and eventually it felt like a bit of a relationship limbo, we weren't growing together, she was frustrated with our dynamic, and I felt stuck in terms of how to stand with her as a partner and a bit like just another kid hanging around.

 

At the end of the day I question my judgement. I don't know if I'm normal and was with an intensely difficult person, or if I need to man up a bit.

[Blue Spiral]

Do they have nothing else to bring to the table? Do they feel it's an easy cop-out to justify their own unhappiness that places the blame on society while patting themselves on the back? Martyr complex? Do they expect to attract a partner by soliciting sympathy?

 

Maybe it's our actual personality, and it isn't about women at all.

 

I'm a beta male, without a doubt. After my first girlfriend dumped me, she told me about a self-help program that would make me more "assertive". I have minimal self-esteem, I've fought depression and social anxiety for most of my life, I'm generally timid, and I'm perfectly happy being non-traditionally-masculine--i.e., I don't do stuff that guys generally do. I'm as sex-obsessed as any guy (probably much moreso, in fact), but I'm not particularly functional when it comes to life.

 

When I was looking for a relationship, many women rejected me for one simple reason: they wanted someone that was strong, and I wasn't.

 

p.s.: not all of us are attracted to "confidence". Confidence is a morally-neutral trait; I'd rather be with a good, insecure woman than a bad, confident one. I chose "weak" women over "strong" ones many times.

[James2014]

Something else I think I need to work on (all suggestions welcomed) is I'm really bad at gauging the difference between "It's ok we can work on this" and "This is unworkable". In hindsight there's a lot of signs I ignored thinking "people have conflict and differences, we can work it out" when perhaps it was a more glaring situation that merited consideration. I don't know where that line is it seems. I think that that piece of me that thinks "I am loyal to you, I'll be by your side and we'll figure it out" steamrolls common sense and self care perhaps

[saluk]

You need to define yourself better! Not in the dumb way she was talking about (seriously? having friends who don't think like you is a BAD thing?) But in terms of the kinds of things you will accept, and the kinds of things you wont. You have a history of 4 bad experiences - what were some of their behaviors and moods that when you think back you go "ugh, how did I let her get away with that?" Also, the things that you enjoy and are passionate about - it sounds like these weren't shared much at least in your last relationship. What are the qualities in those passions that excite you about them? You will be more closely matched if you can find someone who appreciates those qualities - if not those specific things. Someone who appreciates creativity, whether they draw or write or sing or something else, will be a lot closer to understanding what makes you tick than someone who is more of a consumer. My grandfather made birdhouses, and my grandmother made dolls. They weren't aligned on much else but at least they had that.

 

Going forward, if you become more confident in yourself, who you are, and the direction you want to go - your style of raising kids is a good example - then you can look out for people who are not going in the same direction and avoid them.

[Pixels]

Only one of my comments pertained to women/relationships. You've essentially verified at least the first situation, that you genuinely don't feel you bring anything better to the table, and seem to hint at the second case where you use it to make peace with yourself...

 

Low self-esteem, depression, and anxiety aren't inherent personality traits beyond any possibility of control or help. It's wont be easy, but these are problems that are commonly worked with and show improvement with work.

 

The problem, as you pointed out for yourself, is that you aren't functional when it comes to life. Again, this is something that can be improved and worked on with help. I would suggest speaking to a psychotherapist, as this is something they work with frequently.

 

The attraction to confidence has nothing to do with judging a person's morality. Insecurity is a good indication that there's real complications and/or imbalances in a person's life/emotions that might influence their ability to balance social/romantic relationships, regulate or control their emotions, or otherwise function to a level necessary to facilitate a healthy relationship. Same reason people have an aversion to people with substance abuse problems... Of course everyone has different tolerance thresholds/judgement, and in certain cases insecurity is understandable, and a person's way of handling their insecurities can be just as much in their favour. Nobody's judging these people as bad people though. Just not people they want to get too closely involved with.

 

 

 

When it stops feeling like a compromise and starts feeling like a sacrifice is a pretty good indication.

[Fudgie]

The idea of being strong is interesting. I don't think that has anything to do with being passive, being a leader, being confident. I cannot speak for other women but for me, strong means that the person is able to get through hard times/situations without being completely dysfunctional. It means that they are emotionally self sufficient and don't need constant reassurance or signs of affection. It means they feel stable within themselves. It has nothing to do with being a leader. My father is this way. He lets my mom do a lot and lets it roll off of his back but he's a very strong person internally. Strong people are not always the ones running the show and calling the shots and getting the attention. They can also be the ones in the background who are soldiering on behind the scenes.

 

I believe strength is important for everyone to have and it goes beyond just trying to attract someone. It's part of dealing with life.

[Blue Spiral]

Low self-esteem, depression, and anxiety aren't inherent personality traits beyond any possibility of control or help. It's wont be easy, but these are problems that are commonly worked with and show improvement with work.

 

The problem, as you pointed out for yourself, is that you aren't functional when it comes to life. Again, this is something that can be improved and worked on with help. I would suggest speaking to a psychotherapist, as this is something they work with frequently.

 

"solve all of your problems first" may not be a great strategy for getting into relationships, as someone could be eighty years old by the time they do it--assuming they ever do. I personally think it'd be easier to just make "leeway" for men in this area, as we've already done it for women. Women with personal/psychological problems are treated much differently than men with personal/psychological problems. Women admit weakness and get sympathy; men admit it and get scorn or shame.

[James2014]

I found that I definitely need reassurances in this relationship, but I'd also add that I didn't really have any low self esteem or anxiety until halfway through this one. I think her criticisms over weird things made me really anxious. If you're upset that I cooked eggs a certain way, have Christian friends and tried to plan a night out for your birthday then you must be extremely displeased with me....so what am I doing wrong? That kind of thing, it seems like I need to shift from feeling like personal differences are personal detriments and that if the other party is continually dissatisfied that it may just be them.

 

When out of relationships, historically, my self esteem is fine. I feel like this last one has done a number on me emotionally - not just regarding the dynamic with the ex, but the high family and financial demands did me in, in a sense, I like my peace, and it was always busy busy busy

[James2014]

Agreed on these points, I think I've been a doormat thinking I'm doing the right thing by accepting her for who she is and tending to the family and I need to be firmer in my boundaries. I can go into autopilot mode I find and just buzz through al the tasks needed

[Fudgie]

She just criticized a lot. She needs to tone it down and/or be with someone who has a thicker skin so it's not a big deal. She widdled down your self esteem to very little. It's not a wonder that you felt so bad.

 

It may be worth, next time, trying to date more sensitive, more emotionally intune women who may be more passive and won't rag on you. They aren't likely to be as intense but they may be a better match.

[James2014]

One of the weird things is....and I guess we've all heard this tale before...is she was quite different prior to moving in together. I always held on to this one quote she would always say to me"The temptation to take the precious things we have apart to see how they work must be resisted, for they never fit together again"

 

It's odd because....she picked everything apart so much, what friends I had, what music I listened to, etc etc

 

Shortly after we moved in together there was a big drop in affection, and a rise in criticism, I always attributed it to the adjustment of the honeymoon period to that slower softer time, as well as both being involved in the demands of the family but when I look back on it, that more tender, affectionate side to her never really came back to much of a degree.

[James2014]

She just criticized a lot. She needs to tone it down and/or be with someone who has a thicker skin so it's not a big deal. She widdled down your self esteem to very little. It's not a wonder that you felt so bad.

 

It may be worth, next time, trying to date more sensitive, more emotionally intune women who may be more passive and won't rag on you. They aren't likely to be as intense but they may be a better match.

 

Thats what I eventually want, a girl who's more passive and doesn't sweat the small stuff. Just a bit more sweet and gentle

[James2014]

The day I knew I was going to table the breakup convo I felt a lot of relief - I can't even really say I tabled it, we had discussed our direction a few times in the last year and I think we had both been processing for a while and knew this was where we were headed. I just took that final step towards what I feel we both wanted.

 

It's pretty indicative I guess though, I have the odd sad moment, and I feel some upheaval form the change, but I'm not really upset about it, nor do I think she is either, it just ran it;s course. I probably should have had the sense to shorten the course a while back

[jesus83]

I've never heard any of this alpha/beta IRL and I'm a very social person. I think it's mostly inexperienced internet geeks and struggling dudes that come to these conclusions.

 

The really funny part is the women who buy into it. lol

[Man with Dog]

I agree that it's about balance and you gotta find something in the middle. I'm like your ex and I tend to be very blunt. While I am messy myself and not too much of a complainer with little things, if I see my partner doing something that I feel is irrational/ill-conceived/poorly planned/stupid, I speak up.

 

It sounds like what initially attracted you is what got you burned. You are attracted to the boldness and strength but in the end, it's just too intense. That's okay. But it goes to show that what you're attracted to isn't always what you should go for. IE there are many women who like "bad boys" and feel attraction towards that kind of guy. But I'd argue, if you want any sort of stability in your love life, never ever date a bad boy, even if that's what you're into!

 

One thing that gets me (and admit my wife says the same) is that partners find things attractive when you first start dating, then find them irritating years later. It's a good point you make, Fudgie, that we are sometimes attracted to people who are totally unsuitable as long-term partners. Maybe this is the main reasons that nearly all relationships are doomed to "fail", i.e. not last until the couple are parted by death.

[Man with Dog]

I don't believe the tests are the "gospel" truth but give an indication of four of the main dimensions of the human personality. As an example, when I first took the test, I was just on the extrovert side but have, more recently, moved to the introvert side. This doesn't mean I've moved through 180 degrees, more like 10 to 15 and just the other side of the borderline. I think it sums me and my changing life situation perfectly. I think investing myself in being a dad cut me off from other people and my work situation was quite isolating for a while.

 

These sort of tests measure "tendencies" and one can learn a lot from them or choose to ignore and rubbish them.

[Man with Dog]

"solve all of your problems first" may not be a great strategy for getting into relationships, as someone could be eighty years old by the time they do it--assuming they ever do. I personally think it'd be easier to just make "leeway" for men in this area, as we've already done it for women. Women with personal/psychological problems are treated much differently than men with personal/psychological problems. Women admit weakness and get sympathy; men admit it and get scorn or shame.

 

I don't think there's anyone alive who has solved all their issues but I think there is a gender double-standard here, as you say. What we must all try to avoid is becoming slaves to our issues. Maybe when seeking a relationship we should see if our issues are compatible with our partner's!

[Man with Dog]

On your last bit, I would guess a bit of both but mainly that she was difficult. I couldn't have lasted as long as you did!

[Man with Dog]

I've never heard any of this alpha/beta IRL and I'm a very social person. I think it's mostly inexperienced internet geeks and struggling dudes that come to these conclusions.

 

The really funny part is the women who buy into it. lol

 

Nothing personal but I don't agree with you. I'm not the most perceptive of people but I've seen a lot of group dynamics. OK, MOST people are neither at one extreme nor another but some people have a tendency to dominate and most people tend to follow.

[James2014]

One thing that gets me (and admit my wife says the same) is that partners find things attractive when you first start dating, then find them irritating years later. It's a good point you make, Fudgie, that we are sometimes attracted to people who are totally unsuitable as long-term partners. Maybe this is the main reasons that nearly all relationships are doomed to "fail", i.e. not last until the couple are parted by death.

 

I think that that's a big component of the demise of this relationship. If I think about it, some of my choice to give it a go with her was reactive to how the gal I was with before behaved. Th gal I was with before would let things stew and they'd blow up a year and a half later after she'd built up a lot of resentment whereas we could've solved it ages ago.

 

So with the girl in my recent breakup, she was very blunt and very upfront and I thought "Great.... I'll know where I stand, everythings on the table...cool, we can talk" over time though this bluntness with stuff that bothered her turned into things like:

 

- Why would you cook eggs like that? I don't even know what to think when you do things like this.

- Regarding my music - You never progress, you'r stuck in the 90;s listening to archaic, dead genres

- Regarding my choice in friends - You are poorly defined, what can you possibly have in common with your Christian friends?

 

The openness and honesty became airing every possible strange complaint that came up (in my opinion) and it wore away at me over the years (there are some doozies), and eventually I didn't want to hear ANYTHING she had to say and the thing is, is that I totally ignored some of these signs early in the relationship thinking that it was just her and everyones different and we can figure it out. I wanted an open, strong woman, but she's pretty far at the end of the scale. As another poster said, I need to define myself, not in terms of her silly particularities, but in terms of what I will or will not accept. While I raised points on this sort of thing over the years - "Why is this even a conversation?, what do you care how I make my eggs, you're not eating them" etc etc, or even addressing it as an overall " Stop criticizing me and start cultivating US" I really needed to view the workability of us instead of going from instance to instance because when I look back now (in that awesome 20/20 hindsight) and I should have left ages ago when not much really changed.

 

She would have been a fun person to date, but living together long term was really tough for me at least she's not long term material, hell even she said that she didn't think she was relationship material. In all my life, I've never seen someone so easily turn personal differences into personal detriment.

 

Ah well, live and learn

[James2014]

I don't believe the tests are the "gospel" truth but give an indication of four of the main dimensions of the human personality. As an example, when I first took the test, I was just on the extrovert side but have, more recently, moved to the introvert side. This doesn't mean I've moved through 180 degrees, more like 10 to 15 and just the other side of the borderline. I think it sums me and my changing life situation perfectly. I think investing myself in being a dad cut me off from other people and my work situation was quite isolating for a while.

 

These sort of tests measure "tendencies" and one can learn a lot from them or choose to ignore and rubbish them.

 

I would definitely view these tests as helpful to form a baseline for possibility. I think an overall view is pretty helpful.

[James2014]

Things I look for: Kindness, compassion, independence, openness, acceptance of me, laid back and up for trying almost anything together. I value, monogamy and effort in all areas of ones life, I value a sympathetic ear without pandering to me. I don't know if I have a definite "attractive" mindset, I'd prefer fit over not, sense of humor which is a typical answer, I've been with many different types of girl over the course of my lifetime, each bringing something different to the table.

[Fudgie]

One thing that gets me (and admit my wife says the same) is that partners find things attractive when you first start dating, then find them irritating years later. It's a good point you make, Fudgie, that we are sometimes attracted to people who are totally unsuitable as long-term partners. Maybe this is the main reasons that nearly all relationships are doomed to "fail", i.e. not last until the couple are parted by death.

 

I find everything you said to be true for me. It makes me wonder if we in Western society maybe have it a bit wrong in terms of picking partners. I DO find that attraction and such is important, yes, but it can't be the be-all-end-all factor that decides whether or not to enter into a relationship with someone.

 

re: Meyer Briggs, it's not a definitive test but I personally have found it to be helpful in identifying weaknesses and ways of thinking that may be limiting to myself.

The ISTP profile fits me very well and I found it very eye opening. Apparently ISTP females are more rare so this explains why I find it very hard to find females who think like me and understand my perspective, without me talking about my choices and them going "HUH??"

[Sportster2005]

Just stop with Alpha and Beta crap. You're not in a heard with animals. Besides, most people that overplay the Alpha card are usually insecure. Confident people quietly go about their business demonstrating confidence, not talking about it.

 

You sound awesome. You will find someone more compatible. You've learned and gained experience, you'll do fine.