Woe of the Beta male

[James2014]

Just stop with Alpha and Beta crap. You're not in a heard with animals. Besides, most people that overplay the Alpha card are usually insecure. Confident people quietly go about their business demonstrating confidence, not talking about it.

 

You sound awesome. You will find someone more compatible. You've learned and gained experience, you'll do fine.

 

Thanks very much

[James2014]

So onto the next step.....any ideas how to work on my self esteem? It's definitely gone up since our separation which is promising, but it still feels pretty low.

 

Thus far I've taken up cycling, I'm planning to drop 20 pounds over the next few months, I've registered for University in the Fall (not having a family of 5 frees up a remarkable amount of money) and I'm getting out and meeting new people. I'm usually a pretty upbeat guy, have been so since I was a kid, but it's been a long haul in love for me, and I'm still not where I need to be for my self esteem.

 

Any suggestions other than what I'm doing? Maybe just time?

[winniethepooh]

So hey there....I'm a nice guy and I finish last

Typical nice guy joke to make.

 

For any of you who have taken any interest in the Mayer/Briggs personality test, I'm an ISFJ - for the uninitiated, that's a uber-responsible softie with some other annoying attributes - I was fascinated when I took the test, as it nailed me to probably 90% (I'm an ISFJ that will actually communicate with you and a few other discrepancies)

I looked at it once. I think I'm the same.

 

Be what you want to be (within reason), not what someone in a white lab coat tells you you are.

 

So my ex and I made the call to separate a few weeks back.

Not before time, from the sounds of the rest of your post.

 

There were numerous reasons for this, many boiling down to simple incompatibility

That's an understatement. Incompatible is having a preference for fish vs chicken. Train wreck is your relationship.

 

She's very high energy and an extremely outspoken and self proclaimed Alpha female whereas I'm a softer spoken artsy type

Ok.

 

in all honesty I should have had better boundaries and left ages ago

And don't forget that.

 

(she has 5 kids)

How many fathers?

 

How many "Alpha Male" fathers?

 

Over time, while she appreciated my gentle, giving nature she really found that she wanted more of an Alpha male, more of a challenge, more of a ballbuster (I don't know how to be a challenge with the huge demands of the family). I understand her wants, but feel they would make more sense were it to just be the two of us, or with a few less kids - it was exhausting.

Haha, she is simply being a female, from a biological perspective. In the animal world, that works. In the human world, that introduces conflicts, and neither of you are dealing with them.

 

So much of the literature around this sort of thing will say, be a challenge to your girlfriend, to your wife, always leave her wanting, give her two signs of affection for her every three....that sort of thing.

 

I'm just like my dad...I'm not a alpha male, I'm the typical ISFJ guy who will make sure everything runs smoothly, show my love, support you and give you my last quarter cup of Starbucks if you finish yours, you an trust me with your life and your heart.

Stop reading that literature, start studying biology, then read some of that literature again but remember who you are. Don't necessarily try and change into that "Alpha Male". Probably advisable not to anyway. But learn your place in the human world, and stay away from people who still live in the animal world. They will chew you up and spit out your bones, like your ex did/does.

 

I was leaving work 2-3 times a day to check on her daughter, we've done eating disorder, self harm, suicide ideation, tons of police visits.... I could go on,

... and on and on and on. Is this how you want to spend your life? Taking care of someone else's train wreck children?

 

That's how it works in the animal kingdom. Alpha males make females pregnant, beta males look after the offspring. Try living in the human kingdom for a while.

 

It felt like a bit of a catch-22 as she'd tell me not to get lost in everything, but she was very demanding (also self proclaimed) and the needs of the family were very high so I didn't really know how to NOT get lost in everything.

It's Catch-22 because she's manipulating you, using you and your resources to care for her and her offspring. Resources that belong to your future family, whoever that is, but should not be her and her children.

 

(there's a ton more details, maybe some of you remember some of my posts back in January)

No, I wasn't here. Should I read them?

 

but I'm not sure if I went wrong picking someone extremely incompatible with me?

Yes and no. Probably she seduced you for your resources, just like she was possibly seduced by alpha males attempting to use her resources.

 

So in terms of nature's design, you're perfectly compatible but you need to be more "beta" with her for it to work. And accept that your role in her life is as IFSJXYZ care giver, but any further offspring will come from other alpha males, not you.

 

Maybe I should have held out for a sweet gentle librarian

Now that sounds like a much more sensible goal. But librarians can be wolves in sheep's clothing too ... in a good way .

 

If I am too beta and gentle, I don't really know how to up my game in that regard without compromising who I am (which is a gentle beta-artist by the looks of it)

You can change but not without difficulty. Easier would be to change who you connect with. Try and focus on women who have crawled out of the evolutionary soup of the animal kingdom, and realize that being human means to behave more like a human being.

 

I was forward with my needs and frustrations with her, but they always got shut down fairly quickly,

Complete waste of time. She is not interested in communication. She is interested in using your resources to look after her offspring.

 

I get why women would go for the confidence of the Alpha male,

No you don't. Sounds to me like you're just trotting out a line.

 

but dang....I'm just not at this point in my life and never have been, I was a quiet baby, quiet kid, etc, I'm just a more peaceful kind of person who would rather be a partner than a leader in a relationship.

Not everyone can be a leader of a large group, only a few can.

 

With respect to a relationship between two people, look for women who are also looking for a partner rather than a leader ... Or learn to be more of a leader with women who want that but don't pretend or try to be something you're not. Some women thrive with a strong leader and destroy a weak leader. Some women want a partnership with someone who does just enough leading so the woman doesn't feel like she's the one who has to drag your ass everywhere. Some women want to be the leader without question.

 

Women who want a partnership do exist, I have met more than a few. But to be honest though, in my experience, they are still difficult to find. Much rarer than I initially thought when I started searching seriously (with my current perspective). This is complicated by many women saying they are looking for a partner but in reality they are looking for a leader. I don't think they are always deliberately lying or trying to mislead you, it's just they don't really know what they want so they fall back on animal instincts, just like men do when they don't know what they want.

 

And of course women (and men) are not TVs in a shop to pick and choose from. Just because I find a good one who wants a partnership, doesn't automatically mean she wants a partnership with me, or thinks I'm good enough for her. If you meet a hundred random women, perhaps there are only 10 you like, and perhaps there's only 1 out of that 10 who likes you. Then you still got to figure out how to make a relationship work.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely disillusioned, and it's quite possible I'm looking in the wrong places (online mostly). But that's drifting too far from your story. I would suggest you try to interact with a large number of women as soon as possible. I don't mean try and sleep with them, I mean just communicate with them from a dating perspective, not a platonic friendship perspective. Either online or in groups and meetings where there are women to meet. You will be in a better position to form an opinion of yourself, the women you attract, the women you are attracted to, what are you looking for in a relationship, and what might work best for you in terms of a relationship.

 

And absolutely do not get into a long term committed relationship with anyone until you have a better idea of how you can avoid losing yourself in someone else's world.

 

Or maybe I was just with the wrong person way too long, trying too hard to fit a square peg in a round hole, I don't know.

No maybes. You shouldn't have been with her in the first place.

 

If you bang the square peg often enough or hard enough, you'll make it fit. Or break something. Are you broken or banged?

[winniethepooh]

So onto the next step.....any ideas how to work on my self esteem? It's definitely gone up since our separation which is promising, but it still feels pretty low.

That sounds good but normal. The only way is up ... even if it's slowly.

 

Thus far I've taken up cycling, I'm planning to drop 20 pounds over the next few months, I've registered for University in the Fall (not having a family of 5 frees up a remarkable amount of money) and I'm getting out and meeting new people.

Good good good. Keep doing that, especially meeting new people.

 

and I'm still not where I need to be for my self esteem.

 

Any suggestions other than what I'm doing? Maybe just time?

Don't rely on just time. Time is what you need for letting go of feelings, but if you don't proactively do something to improve yourself, to find a better class of people to know, then you'll end up in another train wreck relationship.

 

Keep doing all those positive things you're doing, and accept that it will still take time to get better.

[Sarah691607309662]

James, who wants challenge is a big question. From what you wrote it seems to me that it was you who took some challenge and not her.

 

Your help to this family is incredible. I really doubt that she will let you go easily. Although who knows? There are weird women out there.

 

She sounds utterly selfish and spoiled. She wants the be the center of the world obviously and deals poorly with the demands of life and care.

 

I am not surprised she has 5 kids.. obviously she played her role of The Woman every time with abandon... while not thinking about what care she can provide.

 

I am also not surprised about suicidal thoughts, drinking mess of her teenage kids.

 

Overall, I'd say - leave aside thoughts about alpha/beta - these are NOT true. And if you can - leave this woman, she is not a good partner

[TMifune]

I'm always surprised when I read a dating profile that says or hear a woman say "I need someone who challenges me" Like her boyfriend is supposed to be her drill sergeant or something.

 

Life's tough enough, why would you want to spend it with someone who makes it even more difficult?

[Fudgie]

I'm always surprised when I read a dating profile that says or hear a woman say "I need someone who challenges me" Like her boyfriend is supposed to be her drill sergeant or something.

 

Life's tough enough, why would you want to spend it with someone who makes it even more difficult?

 

It's a dominance thing, the woman wants the man to hold her accountable and not let her walk all over him. Not necessarily order her around.

[TMifune]

It's a dominance thing, the woman wants the man to hold her accountable and not let her walk all over him. Not necessarily order her around.

 

So 50 Shades is right? Women want to be dominated?

 

That's part of my problem. When I hear a woman tell me she wants her man to "hold her accountable" what I hear is that she's unwilling to hold herself accountable for her own actions. How can I ever have a partner if that partner is going to contrive situations where I have to "put her in her place". Maybe I'd like to have kids someday and I don't need a woman-child expecting me to father her too, I need a partner.

 

I'm fine with setting boundaries, I'm fine with making my feelings known, but I shouldn't have to police my partner's behavior. Example: If she wants to go to dinner with her ex-boyfriend, I should be able to tell her, I trust her but I don't like it and it makes me uncomfortable that she'd even consider it. I could tell her "no" but frankly it's her choice. And if she doesn't choose no after I tell her how I feel about it, then my telling her no is meaningless.

 

This whole "man who challenges me thing" is prevalent enough that I actually worry that when my ex says "something was just missing" without any explanation that maybe she felt she could push me around. The thing is, we never fought. We mostly saw eye-to-eye on everything, and when we didn't, I made my feelings known clearly and without threats or demands. I wasn't going to manufacture fights just so she could feel like I'd stand up to her.

[Fudgie]

I know I don't like to be dominated (I've been usually the more dominant one in past relationships) but yeah, overall, I've seen that women like more dominant men. It seems to attract them.

[James2014]

Thanks very much for your straight-up honesty, I appreciate the perspective.

 

The kids were two guys, her first from when she was very young, and the next four with her husband of about 12 years who was pretty neglectful by the sounds of it. Interesting how you said chew you up and spit out your bones as I felt like that towards the end, particularly as that hindsight gets a bit clearer.

 

As for my past posts, the only thing you would likely glean form them is more reason to support my leaving. One was based around her criticism of weird petty stuff and the other seeking advice around dealing with her out of control daughter.

 

I have wondered if I let myself be manipulated, particularly given that her behavior and effort changed quite a bit once I'd moved in. As well when we made the call to separate, she suggested staying together another 4 months or so until the end of October (end of our lease) to see how things go but I can't imagine her effort changing and needless to say I'm in my own, peaceful place right now and quite happy about it.

 

I definitely need to re-calibrate my compatibility radar, this should've been a 6 month relationship where I should have tried it out and realized that we weren't a good match and wished her well and moved on.

 

Broken or banged? I'd say bumped, I'm much healthier for not being with her

[James2014]

James, who wants challenge is a big question. From what you wrote it seems to me that it was you who took some challenge and not her.

 

Your help to this family is incredible. I really doubt that she will let you go easily. Although who knows? There are weird women out there.

 

She sounds utterly selfish and spoiled. She wants the be the center of the world obviously and deals poorly with the demands of life and care.

 

I am not surprised she has 5 kids.. obviously she played her role of The Woman every time with abandon... while not thinking about what care she can provide.

 

I am also not surprised about suicidal thoughts, drinking mess of her teenage kids.

 

Overall, I'd say - leave aside thoughts about alpha/beta - these are NOT true. And if you can - leave this woman, she is not a good partner

 

Hard to say, I think we both let each other go pretty easily in the end. We've both been processing this for a while, she's seen me become more miserable, stressed and overwhelmed over time with family demands, stepdaughter mayhem, not getting my needs met and not being listened to. On the flip side she's been increasingly frustrated with our lack of connection, and similarities. I agree (as would she) that she can be selfish, she's got a big ego and stands by it. She actually deals well with lifes demands, she's a tough one, but I cannot meet her expectations which are pretty sky-high in my (and her) opinion.

 

Through this series of postings, I agree, I should leave the Alpha/Beta thing, but work on my personal assessment, intuition and boundaries.

[James2014]

My ex said that she wanted someone that she had to work to keep up with, again I'd have to quote her "it takes a pretty f'n brilliant person to stimulate me" which hearkens to her high expectations. She said just a few weeks ago that no-one she knows can do that, and she doesn't have any friends that can.

 

My problem is similar, I'm fine with setting my boundaries and being open, but why can't my partner just be nice and try to work with us and not against us? It also brings up accountability and there have been numerous instances when I feel she hasn't. Towards the end she told me that I hadn't set enough of a foundation for us early on....I??? doesn't it take two to build something? Don't we both have a role?

 

Also there was another instance where she came to bed, I was reading with most of the pillows behind me (she had one) - let me point out that she only ever uses one and says no to the vast majority of my offers (want a foot rub, need a drink while I'm in the kitchen, etc) so I didn't offer her an extra pillow. She expressed that she was offended that I didn't and I should have thought of her and offered her some. I then asked "did you want a pillow or two more? She kept going and I explained that she says no to virtually everything I offer her in terms of "those little things", and gets annoyed with me at least half the time for me offering in the first place so I can't intuitively know the times when she actually wants me to offer stuff up and that she was being difficult. She then said something along the lines of "if you think I'm going to assume any responsibility for this dynamic, I'm not going to"...ok..... I don't know what to do with that......

 

I can only think of one instance when I held her accountable that didn't go sideways or result in her shutting me down, she claimed to want me to be more of a leader/Alpha, but taking a leadership role was very difficult and accountability didn't go too far either, she always had a backlog of empirical evidence to back up why she was right.

[Fudgie]

James,

 

I'm sorry, I kind of laughed reading about your ex. "I want you to offer me things that I will almost always say no to, but I will get upset if you don't offer, or if you offer at times that don't coincide with the arbitrary and nonsensical schedule in my head." Good grief man, no wonder your self esteem was lowered because of her. You can't do anything right by her and that's not your fault, she's impossible to do right by.

 

I think some people have an idea of how things should go in their head but that idea cannot be followed by any mortal man because a) it's not possible and b) it's not communicated. You're searching for a needle in a HAYFIELD while blind-folded. You can't please someone like that.

 

Makes me think of a funny joke I'll share.

 

 

[James2014]

James,

 

I'm sorry, I kind of laughed reading about your ex. "I want you to offer me things that I will almost always say no to, but I will get upset if you don't offer, or if you offer at times that don't coincide with the arbitrary and nonsensical schedule in my head." Good grief man, no wonder your self esteem was lowered because of her. You can't do anything right by her and that's not your fault, she's impossible to do right by.

 

I think some people have an idea of how things should go in their head but that idea cannot be followed by any mortal man because a) it's not possible and b) it's not communicated. You're searching for a needle in a HAYFIELD while blind-folded. You can't please someone like that.

 

Makes me think of a funny joke I'll share.

 

 

I wasn't able to open the attachment, so I will share funnies with you instead:

 

In one of our last conversations, she said "There was one thing I never really got over"...... I was wondering if I'd said something harsh, or something like that, so here it is....

 

"The time when I made dinner, just putting together some pasta, cheese and dumping some sauce on top, you were so thankful for it, I need a man with more discerning tastes"

 

I was just happy to come home from work to my partner making me dinner.....

 

I'll throw in one more for fun, we had a night drinking Crown Royal, I was mixing the drinks. She was hung over in the morning and not feeling very well. She looked rough...

 

Me: Do you need anything?"

Her: I feel like , I can't believe you did this to me!

Me: Sorry?

Her: You know that I'm half your weight, why did you make the drinks so strong?

Me: I'm sorry that you feel awful, but you're an adult, you control what goes into your own body, I'm not going to police that! Why didn't you stop drinking or tell me the drinks were too strong?

Her: Why aren't you normal?

Me: Pardon? What do you mean?

Her: I'm laying here feeling like crap, it's your fault and you know that you mix drinks too strong! I'm feeling like garbage and you're putting up a fight about it. Anybody else would be more concerned about the people they care about.

Me: Again, I'll get you anything you need, I can run out for coconut water, whatever it is, but I'm not going to stand here and have you tell me that you consuming too much is my fault

 

And so it went....

[Fudgie]

 

 

Let's try that again

 

I don't really get her comment about needing a man with "more discerning tastes". Did she want you to be unhappy with what she made?

 

I'm inclined to think that she's used to having guys pick on her, and then she picks on them, and vice versa.

[James2014]

 

Let's try that again

 

aha.....aha.....aHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I actually laughed out loud at that!

[Fudgie]

Glad I could help

[James2014]

Maybe I should write a book....... this has me thinking.......I somehow attract or gravitate towards women like this, the girl I was with before had moments like this

 

So..... Valentines day was approaching fast, in the two weeks prior to it, she went on a continual tirade about V-day, how it was a Hallmark load of money grubbing garbage...

 

and I knew....sometime in the next couple of weeks....I was going to die!

 

So....Valentines was on a Saturday, so I made plans for us to do something on the Friday thinking that we werent doing anything ON the Hallmark garbage Valentines day but we were still going to do something. I said "Hey, lets go out for dinner on Friday instead of Saturday" We went for a nice dinner, I made her a card, got some flowers, had a good night.

 

So Saturday came around (V-day) and I didn't do anything at all thinking I was covered.

 

Nope....not covered.

 

she blew up pretty bad, any logical argument stating that she explicitly expressed that she hated Valentines day so I chose to still do something nice for her, but not on that day went very much unheard, it was ugly.

 

Sigh.....

[James2014]

 

Let's try that again felt taht she could just serve up any l

 

I don't really get her comment about needing a man with "more discerning tastes". Did she want you to be unhappy with what she made?

 

I'm inclined to think that she's used to having guys pick on her, and then she picks on them, and vice versa.

 

She felt that I didn't have standards and would eat/tolerate anything, she would have preferred that I hadn't been very thankful for it. She said she felt that she could serve up any old slop and I'd appreciate it so there was no point in putting effort into creating a nice dinner with my low standards.

 

I love a nice well made dinner, I'm just appreciative of the gesture and I'll pretty much down anything when I get in after my day.

[happy_snapper]

I'm also finding it hard to understand why you put up with this for so long.

 

She sounds completely insane.

[Fudgie]

Honestly, I don't think she currently knows the proper way to treat a person that you care about. I don't know if it's because she's had a lot of exes that treated her poorly or something else.

[James2014]

I'm also finding it hard to understand why you put up with this for so long.

 

She sounds completely insane.

 

It's clear to me

 

I had weak boundaries, and I based a lot on how she was towards me in our dating phase. I offloaded my frustrations to her business, the madness of her daughter/constant stress, and just the fact that "Everyone is different, we can make it work once we get to the right place.

 

It was totally weak, I get hanging on for a bit hoping things well improve, but I hung on for way to long. For about two years it was very crisis to crisis with her teenage daughter and I ignored my needs and feelings to wade through the situation

[TMifune]

"The time when I made dinner, just putting together some pasta, cheese and dumping some sauce on top, you were so thankful for it, I need a man with more discerning tastes"

 

I was just happy to come home from work to my partner making me dinner.....

 

OMFG! She sounds seriously damaged.

 

This is a good example of what I mean about the whole "challenges me" dynamic. You're a decent human being who's appreciative that she made something for you. That's a good thing and she should be grateful. She did something for you, you enjoyed it, all's well. Except, what she really wants is you to pick a fight with her and tell her how it's dog crap and you've scraped better meals off the back end of a horse.

 

That's what I don't get and seems stupid to me. She chose what to make for you. She could have chosen to make something more complicated, but she didn't. That's on her but she tries to project responsibility for it onto you. It's your fault that she didn't make something that was up to her crazy standards because you wouldn't have appreciated it anyway. And when it comes down to it that's what it seems like when someone says "I need a man who challenges me". They want someone who will accept responsibility for their shortcomings so they don't have to.

 

Also, after reading a blog with some divorced women talking about the "challenge me" dynamic, I believe some are just stuck in this belief that they have to "fix someone" to be with them. The problem with that is that if you ever really do "fix" this broken individual that you've got, now you're no longer interested, because you need to be "fixing" someone, so you're on to the next.

 

Here's a thought....if you feel like you need to "fix" someone, why not start with yourself?

[TMifune]

Honestly, I don't think she currently knows the proper way to treat a person that you care about. I don't know if it's because she's had a lot of exes that treated her poorly or something else.

 

If I had to guess, and I hope it's an educated guess, I'd say:

 

Sometimes when we're deeply intimate with someone, we feel connected in a way that makes us sort of dissolve the line between them and us in our heads. So we start not seeing this other person as a unique individual, but an extension of ourselves. And if we feel bad about ourselves, it's very easy to throw that on the other person. It sounds like his ex had some kind of major insecurity that she measured by these weird external things. She thought that she should be classier or "better" or whatever, and when he appreciated a simple meal, she blew up because she doesn't appreciate a simple meal. She needs a fancier or classier meal because acting like she's all worldly or high class is a big show she puts on to hide the insecure child that's inside of her.

 

The sad thing is, that as long as she hides and measures things this way, she'll never really be able to feed that inner child some confidence, she'll never really grow out of it.

[James2014]

She had a BRUTAL childhood, or not really much of one at all, she would be left alone with her siblings around age 3 for literally days while her mom would leave. She'd lock them in a bedroom and just take off. She grew up hard and fast, very independent. She put herself into foster care at age 13.