modesty/shy guy vs. arrogant bad boy

[Shidoshi]

Wow, this is one hell of a debate you guys are having....but it seems like it's becoming pointless.

Plus she wants to spend the day with me next friday. Dude, we're enjoying this too much to stop. I'm pretty confident that best guy thing isn't what is going on. But even if it is, so what? I want what makes her happy, even if that means she ends up with someone else. That's a true and unselfish love, or unselfish attraction at this point.

I mean this pretty much sums it up. How do you even argue with statements like this? No amount of reasoning is going to come through when a guy feels this way....until he gets hurt. Pain is the only thing that woke me up early on in life.

[ShySoul]

spatz,

 

I wanted to answer your little game of devils advocate on the girl. The thing with this other guy isn't that he teases her and stuff. What she likes about him is the same kind of things she likes about me. It's the niceness, the good heart, etc. So if she picks him it won't be teasing that does it, it will be the fact that the have a history together, not something I can really do much about. Actually, the reason it hasn't worked out in the past is because he sometimes plays games. Around her he is nice and everything, but around his other friends he acts different which is something she doesn't like. She's attracted to the good side he shows around her and turned off by the rest. She is also a very honest and direct person so she didn't appreciate him lying to cover up a pretty big secret that eventually broke up there relationship. She doesn't know if she can trust him and is afraid of being hurt again.

 

That's why my being nice is clearly the way to go. If I can show her that I wouldn't do something like that then that works to my advantage. I need to be the nice guy who is there for her. If I tried anything else, she would wonder if i'm the same way. Everthing is great so far, no reason to change tacks now.

 

Shidoshi, you've got it backwards. Pain doesn't wake you up, love does. I now all about hurt and pain, my life has been full of it. Hey, the last girl I liked ended up with another boyfriend after she said that she really trusted me and that we had so much in common. I know all about the 'friends trap" thing. That hurt but only for a day or so. Then I picked myself up and said that things will work out in the end. She's happy and I'm happy for her. This was like two months ago. Now things are going good for me. It's like I have woken up and i see things clearer. A few months ago feeling down was pretty common for me. Now, I'm feeling up.

[Shidoshi]

I don't know what to say man.....I respect your opinions, I just don't agree with them. If it's trully working for you than I guess I can't argue.

[MetallicAguy]

See when she slaps you on the arm after a tease this is called "kino" which is one of the greatest forms of flirting for approx 10 centuries, don't remember but it's around that long ago. When your teasing YOUR flirting so what if she still remembers it and makes her feel good. A friend can do that. So basically, you tease (flirt) she flirts back by hitting you on the arm lightly and she might even play it back! That's BS that there is no girl that doesn't like it. It's worked with, smart girls, hot girls, every type of woman it works with. Why don't you just try it one time and see what her reaction is? I REALLY doubt that it's going to be bad. Some smart girls aren't really into teasing BUT it still works on them, they see what you do Shy as working better for someone reason [shrugs]. That's just my expierience. They the smart girls take it seriously sometimes LOL which is hilarious because they get the whole wrong intention out of it and instead of them being smart, they look stupid taking offense to it. Basically with whatever your teasing her at, you accuse her of things that would be possible at the moment, like if your playing a board game with her you can accuse her of cheating, keep doing it and saying it in different forms, a girl's common reaction is sometimes like "No I'm not" and she's smiling and laughing so you KNOW she's having a good time. If you sit there and play and then bring up something stupid that someone did like for example on a TV show that seems "silly" you get a 1 time laugh maybe and unless you don't think of another one you sit there in silence like the whole time. Now with the teasing, you can make her laugh, have a good time, do it repetedly without it getting old, and it plays with her emotions in a good way. Shysoul, man just one time in your life TRY IT OUT. What is there to lose by doing it once it's not like she's going to dump you because you made her feel good lol.

[ShySoul]

Shidoshi, it is working. That's the thing that gets frustrating, everything I say does work. Yet, so few people get it. Why is it that I have to change and try something new when everything is going great? Why should I change anything when I've finally become completely content with myself? Why don't you guys try what I'm saying?

 

MetallicAguy, thank you for adding the word "kino" to my vocabulary. You learn something new everyday. Now, yes a friend can make her feel good, which is precisely what I am getting at. If you are her friend then that is good. Your intent shouldn't be to create tension or to make her excited about you. Your goal should simply be to make her happy and feel good. I've never said that NO girl would like teasing, just not all girls. Even if most girls like it, there are many who would be much prefer everything I'm saying. Those are the girls I like and I will end up with one of them. No reason to change anything here, I know what I want and I don't see why I should change or settle for anything else.

 

Here's what you could do in the board game scenario. Instead of saying she's cheating, say something like your "just too good for me" and throw up your hands in mock frustration, frustration at yourself not her. Jokingly suggest that you stink at the game or look up and pretend that you are praying to god to help you win. If you land on the same space as her act like your pieces are having a conversation. These things are silly, goofy, but funny. It lets both people have a good time and keeps the mood light. They demonstrate a sense of humor. You are not sitting there in silence, your actually being quite entertaining. But you don't have to teasing to do it.

 

The reason I'm not trying it is because theres no need. When everything I'm doing is working, this certainly isn't the time to change. This stuff has brought me to the dance and it will all work out in the end.

[spatzcolumbo]

Why don't you guys try what I'm saying

 

I think that nobody tries what you are saying because we have all been there before, and its not worked for us!! At least thats things from my side - it never really worked all that well, and i have a lot more fun being myself as i am now!! Added to which, the way i am now works a LOT better for me, and it is just who i am - i'm not putting on an act at all!!

 

The fact is, i think its good that you are going along with what you are doing, and its a good quality to have that you stick to your guns on everything.

 

intent shouldn't be to create tension or to make her excited about you. Your goal should simply be to make her happy and feel good

 

Intent is NOT to make her feel excited about you...the fact that she feels excited about you is a positive side-effect of making her feel happy and feel good.

 

Teasing, and Kino - that post was spot on, and sums up why i enjoy teasing and flirting in that way.

 

What works for Shysoul works for him for a reason, so maybe thats just how it is. Maybe one day he will change without even realising it.

 

One of the things i DO know is that i wouldn't want to be with anyone who doesn't like to be teased in a flirting way. All that says to me is that the person is insecure and can not take a little light hearted fun. That is another part of the reason i do it - i like someone who is quick witted enough and sharp enough to be able to give some back at me - teasing for me is a 2 way thing!

 

But then if the teasing thing isn't good for Shysoul, then i've come to realise that its not really worth arguing the point - if at some point in the futuer Shysoul decides that he wants to tease someone, then he'll do it off his own back - he won't do it because someone tells him to, and that is the best way to be. Trying to do anything when its not natural to you is a bad idea because people will see right through you!!

 

You do realise that if we'd all got together at a pub / bar, then this discussion would have taken about 15 minutes!!

[DropToZero]

Quote:

Why don't you guys try what I'm saying

 

 

I think that nobody tries what you are saying because we have all been there before, and its not worked for us!! At least thats things from my side - it never really worked all that well, and i have a lot more fun being myself as i am now!! Added to which, the way i am now works a LOT better for me, and it is just who i am - i'm not putting on an act at all!!

 

The fact is, i think its good that you are going along with what you are doing, and its a good quality to have that you stick to your guns on everything.

---spatzcolumbo

 

YEA...omg....HOW MANY times ...how many times do I have to say it???? we already have TRIED your "METHODS"....are you reading our posts?....we have all BEEN THERE and DONE THAT....its not goin to work out for you in the end.

 

It works now...you've found a great friend, and thats all you're goin to get out of this in the end. Actually...on the main page is a post....thank god...some woman who wants to put it out there....this is what will happen to you if you end up marrying the girl that thinks you're the 'nice guy'.

 

link removed

 

And I'm sorry if you don't want to believe this, but its what will happen. I dont know how many times I'd have to say it...we tried what you're doing right now.

[ShySoul]

Guys,

 

This is precisely the thing I don't like to see, people who were on the right track but jumped off because it was a bumpy road and they became convinced that they weren't going to make it. Everything I say does work out in the end. You may have been there and tried it and things may have not worked out. But that happens all the time for any number of reasons, not because of being nice. Perhaps you simply were not compatible with whoever was in the picture? I've never claimed that what I'm doing works overnight or that most people will understand and appreciate it. It takes time and the right person to see through what society tells us we have to do into what really matters. The vast majority of this dating "game" people think we have to play is itself the cause of most of the problems people have. Things would have worked out with what you were doing before, you just became impatient and wasn't willing to wait for everything to come together. You changed your view to fit in with what the majority think. I'm sticking with my view and when it does work I'll be better off for it.

 

What's wrong with friendship? Even if it does end up like that, what is wrong with making a lifelong friend? I'll allow myself a day to hurt and pick myself up knowing it simply wasn't meant to be. The mere fact that this much has happened is a new experience that has taught me much and shown me that nice guys do finish first. As for the post, did you read it? Your focusing on the fact that he was nice and treated her like a princess. That is what made her fall for him, a good thing. The real problem lies with her past and her not knowing what she wants. She admits to being drawn to "emotionally unavailable me" something tied to her father not being around. I'm not a psycologist but that seems to be the issue here, not that he is nice. She went for him not because she truly loved him but because he was giving her the kind of support she felt she was missing. An instance of marring young for the wrong reasons, not an example of nice guys getting hurt because they are nice. He did what he should have done, not his fault what she went though in the past.

 

It comes down to self fullfilling prophecies. If you believe that you have to tease or play games then your preception will make it a reality. You'll do it because you think you have to and you'll ignore all the benefits that come with everything I've been seeing. Likewise, I believe that nice guys end up with the nice girls and are better off for it. thereforeeee I see how it does work. I kept my confidence in what I'm saying whereas you guys gave up to soon.

[spatzcolumbo]

I have so much stuff that is going on in my head now about this post, but half of it goes quite off topic...i'll see what i come up with:

 

Perhaps you simply were not compatible with whoever was in the picture?

 

For me it wasn't so much not being compatible - half the time it was that me being such a nice guy removed me from the situations where i was going to meet the right people for me, and when i did meet them, i was too 'nice' to do anything about it. I never went and got what i wanted because i was too worked up about being the nice guy and getting it all right. If i did meet someone, it ultimately ended in lines like "you're just too nice for me", and that sort of thing. The whole 'nice' thing just wasn't really getting me anywhere. I got sick of constantly hearing what a nice guy i was. If i was such a nice guy, how come nobody was interested in me other than as a friend? Well in actual fact, they were interested, but i didn't have the balls to do anything about it. My whole life i had been told what a nice guy i was, and how things would 'work out for me in the end'. People telling you this all the time can really be a kick in the face, and i started thinking that i wasn't good enough for people because i was SUCH a nice guy, yet people were still rejecting me.

 

The only thing that has changed since then are that i have become a lot more confident.

 

It almost borders on arrogance, but in a good way. Its about walking into a room and believing that you are just as good as anyone in the room. So many people have problems with inferiority, and thereforeeee they believe things like "she's out of my league". I really HATE this phrase because it is such a defeatist attitude. Now i'm not saying that your typical 'nice guy' will use this phrase or anything, but out of all my mates, a lot of the 'nice guys' are constantly saying to me "she's out of my league". The reason they say this is that they have always been conditioned to believe that they are just everyone's friend, but nothing more. They've always been promised that it will 'work out in the end' but it won't quite work out this time. Because of this, they can not picture themselves with these women, and thereforeeee they can not approach them.

 

I have a load more stuff in my head but i haven't got time to put it down, and it just strays off topic a bit, so maybe next time.

[DropToZero]

I dont have anything right now, about to go out...but where is the smiley avatar I'm looking for....ahh there it is ](*,)

 

Shysoul...You're so lost in translation between what guys and girls think....and too stubborn to listen to people who have tried and done what you think will work. You're even more stubborn than I thought b/c you keep telling us to try or keep up w/ our nice guys acts treating women like queens and being nothing but nice....when we tell you time and time again that it won't work, and that you will not be satisfied with a relationship if you ever get one. You're even more stubborn than I've been told I am....I'm not trying to be mean, but...its true. You're too unwilling to listen to us, let alone try what we know works for sure...now and in the end...that I'm tired of tryin to argue and debate you out of your views to at least...some extent.

 

I believe you'll get a girl one day, even now....but you will have to learn on your own that it wont work b/c you wont listen to the countless number of guys that would argue it back on you.... People have been dating and going out, being g/f and b/f...and any other 'label' for years, yet you seem to not understand that the 'nice' guy label has always been there, and unless you were a guy that somehow knew what he was doing with women back in like Jr. High and Highschool thru college, you stayed the 'nice guy' believing it would work out in the end. Like I said, I think you'll get a girl, but I don't think either you or her will be happy in the long run....I mean, if you don't want to listen to us...what should I do?...do you want me to go find a 45+ year old man that tried being the nice guy only to learn that it didn't work too late in life? I know I could...if you'll listen to him.

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

Hey, where did you find that smiley? That can be the new symbol for my life. Not just here but I often find my self banging my head against a wall trying to get people to see whats right in front of them. People look so much for whats not so obvious that they make it more complicated then it needs to be.

 

Okay, I know it works it life because I have asked older people and they say I'm on the right track. A 60 year old guy, a 60 year old woman, a 35 year old woman, etc. Further more girls my age say it to. I am listening to people, people's who opinions I highly trust and value, and those people say I'm right.Maybe its a case of me always being able to relate to those who are older better. I see what is going to work out in the end, you guys are still going off a young mentality. But eventually you'll see what I'm saying.

 

It will work, maybe even because I won't listen to the countless guys who argue with me. If I'm the only one taking this stance, that makes me different and unique. It makes me mysterious in my own way. So when a girl takes the chance on me, she'll be with someone that gives her new experiences. I'm the guy that girls turn to when they get tired of games. It's not just because I'm nice. I can be ever bit as fun and exciting as the next guy. The fundamental problem here is that you hear "nice guy" and still equate it with boring or whimpy. But I have all kinds of other qualities to go with it, I just know not to play games or say anything that is even remotely negative.

[ShySoul]

spatz,

 

Ok, now I see where you are coming from. But the problem was never you being a nice guy, it was a lack of confidence. Actually, we almost sound like the same person but who took different paths when faced with a choice on how we were going to look at ourselfs. I've always been the nice guy pretty much liked by everyone but never getting really close to many people. Of the few girls I've liked enough to want to ask them out, I was always afraid that things would go wrong, that I would mess things up. Not so much that they are out of my league, but that it would hurt me to much and with other problems I've dealt with in my life I didn't want to have anything else go wrong. So I never said anything.

 

I've always known that I'm just as good as everyone else. And your true nice guy knows that as well. The thing is that the nice guys often have mean people trying to take advantage of them. Or they are picked on when they are young. Plus they tend to be more sensitive anyways. If enough bad stuff happens to them then they can get they impression that they deserve it and that they are inferior. They tend to be shy and when they see a girl who is outgoing they can be intimidated. But its not the girl so much as its the personality, they are uncomfortable with the popular, outgoing style. This gets translated into "out of my league." I agree it's a stupid phrase. You get it by gaining confidence. But we differ on how to get that confidence.

 

You got confidence by becoming more like the other people, the teasing and playing games. I got confidence by fully embracing what I was doing all along. Instead of sometimes wishing I was like everyone else, I stopped caring about others opinion or what they were like and became devoted to being the person I have always been. I don't think I gained confidence as much as I allowed myself to feel the confidence that was always there but I held back because I thought I should be more like everyone else. I saw that what I was doing was going to lead me to meet the right people for me. I saw that I was going to eventually find someone right for me. The only thing I needed to change was not trying to change.

 

About being a nice guy and not having girls interested because you are "too nice." They are the ones that have the problem, not you. They are saying that you are too good for them and that you deserve better than they can give you. That's no reason to feel inferior, thats reason to feel superior. I have no illusions about the road of a nice guy being easy or getting you lots of dates. But the way I see it, its quality not guantity. The nice guy can get one or two girlfriends in a lifetime but still be better off then someone who gets all kinds of dates and relationships but has to resort to playing "the game."

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

you know i actually agree with you on this stuff. Some of it anyway!!

 

But the problem was never you being a nice guy, it was a lack of confidence.

 

Correct. However, the nice guy in me was the root of the problem - the lack of confidence came from the constant rejection of being 'the one everyone really likes as a friend but nothing more'.

 

I still get all the compliments of "he is such a nice bloke" and "he always makes time to speak to people". However, in terms of dating, i have maybe gained a bit more of an edge to me - i have decided that i have more fun teasing people, and being a bit cheeky, and thereforeeee this is just who i am. Its almost like i am the same person i was 5 years ago, but slightly more refined and more developed. My confidence comes not in being like every other person, but in being myself, and being different to a lot of people.

 

Of the few girls I've liked enough to want to ask them out, I was always afraid that things would go wrong, that I would mess things up. Not so much that they are out of my league, but that it would hurt me to much and with other problems I've dealt with in my life I didn't want to have anything else go wrong. So I never said anything.

 

This is exactly my point tho - this is where you have to have that arrogance to say to yourself - i CAN make this work, and things WILL be ok. You are so confident that things will work out for you in the end, that anything that happens in between should almost be insignificant.

 

One of the most important rules i have EVER learnt in my life was last year when my ex and i broke up. That experience taught me that no matter how bad things can seem in terms of being rejected when asking people out, NOTHING will come close to the feeling of losing her. That is where i have gained so much confidence. Through having such a happy relationship, that ended in such misery for me, i was able to put things into perspective. This is another reason i would give to not just wait for 'the one', but to get out there and experience other things, and other relationships, because ultimately even good things can come from the pain of breaking up. Never thought i would hear myself say something like that, but there ya go!!

 

In terms of the nice guy always ending up with just what he wants, that is true. You also say that some of us are thinking from a young persons point of view. Also correct maybe, but that is how it SHOULD be - we ARE young, and this is the time to ACT that way, because that is how we LEARN. There is nothing as good as actual experience, and by learning things this way, we are better prepared for later life. I know we have really different views in terms of dating and attraction, but the fact is that when i meet someone who i am really interested in, and once i am in a committed relationship with them, i automatically mellow, possibly into more like the person you are.

 

One last point is that everyone plays 'the game'. You are playing the game in your own way. 'The game' is not defined as a game in which there is a clear start, middle and end, or where there are clear winners or losers. 'The Game' to me is about YOUR game. What you DO, how you ACT around other people, and how you FLIRT. It is your tactics for life. Do you sit back and let things happen, or do you go out and get what you want. you play 'the game' in relationships, and you play 'the game' at work. So many aspects of life are about 'the game'.

 

Relationships are the most obvious example in my opinion.

 

Right, Saturday night, and too late to be writing anymore here...i've gotta get out on the town and catch up with some friends!!

 

Enjoy your weekend!!

[ocean9]

nice guy...bad guy...that is REALLY black and white thinking

 

I'll be blunt: a woman who is attracted to a man who mistreats her has issues...she probably needs a counsellor, not a boyfriend

 

and guys who are trying to be someone they are not...they have issues too!

 

c'mon people...be true to who you really are! why on earth would you want someone who is not into the real you? that's messed up!

[Caldus]

Yeah it is black and white thinking because everyone is very unique from everyone else.

[ocean9]

exactly! no two people are exactly the same! generalizing doesn't help anyone.

 

I think people need to stop trying to be someone they're not...because being untrue to one's self never works out in the long run...and it causes more harm than good to everyone involved.

[spatzcolumbo]

I can't speak for anyone else, but i AM being myself - its just that people don't seem to understand that some people are very adaptable - i personally interact with different people in different ways - this is not a bad thing, its just who i am.

[ShySoul]

I don't think that when you are being who you really are that you need to be different around different people. I mean, its one thing to more respectful and a business event or a funeral perhaps, but when it comes simply being around friends or dating, you don't need to adjust yourself at all. I am going to have the same way of interacting with anyone.

 

Nice guy is never the root of the problem, if anything it is the root of the solution. You did change yourself to adjust to dating by gaining that edge as you put it. But it is the "nice bloke" that will really put you over in terms of finding someone. You've even said so yourself, that in the end the nice guy is the one who wins out. Just because we are young doesn't mean we should act a certain way. Yes, you can learn from the experience and mistakes, but what if you can still learn the same lessons without ever having to go through it? That's what I'm saying. I have never seen a need to act anyway other then how I am right now and if that way is going to lead me where I want to be anyways, there really is no reason to be any other way. I am more prepared for life then you might think. My whole life has been about learning what works and what doesn't, I've seen probably every problem you could bring up. And I've seen how simple the solutions tend to be although most people overlook them. Listening to the person, compassion, trust, honesty... they are the solutions, playing games and teasing merely the causes. And if you mellow into the person I am when in a committed relationship, why not just be like that from the start? Clearly it works and if it works once you are serious, its going to work when your just getting to know each other. Hey, it might even get her interested faster.

 

I'm not saying that good things can't come from something painful like breaking up. Hey, I've always been one trying to turn lemons into lemonade. But you can still experience those good things and wait for "the one." Maybe she has been hurt before and you are the one who shows her that you won't hurt her. You show her so much love, partly because she is the one you've always waited for, and touch her so deeply that you end up happily ever after. Or maybe you've been hurt in so many other ways, not necessarily a relationship, that you aren't really sure what love feels like. You are craving a feeling that is virtually unknown to you. Then you meet "the one" and everything falls in place. You do not have to date around to find the person who is right for you.

 

If I have a game, it is to throw out ever notion of there even being a game. To do otherwise would be to reduce life into a game when it is so much more then that. It would turn people into players and personalities into tactics and strategies. Not a very pleasant way of looking at things. All to easily that view turns into a chess match with people jockying for position and trying to make the best moves. We are people and life is much greater then that. We hold the potential for greater things then we've ever imagined, but we can't actualize that potential until we get rid of ideas like treating things as a game and start opening our minds to more.

[discordant_verse]

I think that this nice guy-bad guy argument is a load of bull.

 

There is no race of nice guys nor a race of jerks. It is how we conduct ourselves in life that defines us as being nice or jerks in the many different interactions we have with others. We arent always nice, we arent always jerks

 

Human interaction is very complex. Spatzcolumbo used the "game" as a

metaphor and that's a pretty accurate. It isnt that you "play" but how you interact with the other as life plays out.

 

Look at it this way, we are naturally predisposed to being nice to those whom we care about. This is a natural expression of our human empathy for another. We are also naturally capable of being cruel, this is human apathy. But the real issue in this discussion of nice v jerks are the questions of "what a guy is looking for", "how is he going about getting it" and "why is he making such a choice", etc. The real issue isnt clear cut.

 

I rolled my eyes reading this thread and somewhere on page 7, I just began skimming. Really, its just a bunch of people trying to persuade another that one way is better than the other. Guys, there is no cut and dried way of doing things. It all depends on your perspective. None of you are wrong.

 

What really matters is what you want and what are you going to do about it. How you go about it is your own business.

 

When I hear talk about nice guys and jerks, I literally roll my

eyes because those "nice guys" who name call are very often just

people who just dont have a clue. Its the envy speaking. If they

were really nice guys, they wouldnt even be thinking/talking about

being left out because they would never lack for female companionship.

Nice guys naturally "get" girls. But they dont necessarily get sex nor

any interest beyond friendship. I know this because I'm a nice guy and I dont lack for female attention and friendship. However, I feel I'm missing something - companionship. I feel lonely because I just havent found the right one; the one whom I can invest myself in and get reciprocity.

 

And that's the real crux of it, isnt it? Most guys who claim to be nice are those who dont seem to be taken seriously. They are the ones who get left out and feel it. The loneliness can be chilling. It isnt a lack of being nice, its a lack of perspective. You can be a nice guy and still get girls, you just need to go up to the girl you are interested in and make manifest your interest - how you do it, your business. What your ultimate goal is, your business.

 

Similarly, you can sit around and wait for that perfect love to fall in your lap. In the meanwhile, if you can be satisfied with your position, it doesnt matter how you go about it, its your life. I know this one sounds absurd and it can very easily be applied to shysoul. But the reality is as I see it, Shysoul just hasnt found anybody he is truly interested in right now. He sees no point in messing around and getting some laid. That's way cool, this guy has some really tough and romantic convictions/beliefs - refreshingly different in todays world. I am VERY certain that once that special someone comes along, he'll get in gear just like the rest of us do. He already knows the moves, he can dance.

 

The real problem between the nice guy and bad guy argument is an

issue of expectations and beliefs. On one extreme, if a guy just

wants to have some fun, he plays around and gets the girls. A few

guys who are missing out on the action call em jerks - there is a

reason why envy made the top 7 lists somewhere.

 

On the other extreme, a guy wants a real meaningful and deep

relationship and believes in waiting for it. A few guys find this conservative stance most baffling and call em wusses - unfortunately, ignorance isnt in that same list.

 

The reality of life is that at any one point in time, some have and some dont. Those that dont can and do feel left out in some way. Those that have can and do turn around at times and wonder if its what they really want. To those who whine about not getting gals, to those who wonder, let me ask you, what do you believe in? What are you going to do about it?

 

 

Good things come to those who wait. But when it comes your way, remember to reach out and sieze the opportunity.

 

Cheers

DV

[spatzcolumbo]

I rolled my eyes reading this thread and somewhere on page 7, I just began skimming. Really, its just a bunch of people trying to persuade another that one way is better than the other. Guys, there is no cut and dried way of doing things. It all depends on your perspective. None of you are wrong.

 

Exactly what i have been trying to say all along - there is NO cut and dry answer to all this, there are just different techniques and ways of living. This is what i mean by 'the game'. I'm not talking about a 'game' in the sense of something you sit down and play, but a 'game' in terms of the way you approach differnt situations and interactions, just as DV suggests.

 

Shysoul,

 

I don't think that when you are being who you really are that you need to be different around different people. I mean, its one thing to more respectful and a business event or a funeral perhaps, but when it comes simply being around friends or dating, you don't need to adjust yourself at all. I am going to have the same way of interacting with anyone.

 

I don't NEED to be different around different people, i just am different around them. You are too, i would put money on it. For example, around some of my friends, i tend to be pretty melancholy and quiet - i will sit and have a generally quiet, deep chat with them, but then someone else might turn up who just sends me a bit crazy, and i suddenly start messing around a lot more, and become a lot louder. This is just because different people make me act in different ways - some people just make me want to laugh and go crazy, whilst other people lead me more towards having deep intellectual conversations. Its not about me specifically changing to satisfy anyone, its just that humans NATURALLY act differently around different people. I would suggest that anyone who claims to act 100% the same ALL the time is either lying, or leads a very dull life. Would you not agree that some people make you want to sit down and have a really quiet, deep chat with, whilst other people make you want to howl with laughter and scream craziness at the top of your voice? Some people might make you want to do both!!

 

This is what i'm talking about - we interact differently depending on who we are interacting with.

 

playing games and teasing merely the causes

 

There is NO way that my kind of teasing is the cause of any trouble or uncertainty. if you could see it, then you would understand.

 

All to easily that view turns into a chess match with people jockying for position and trying to make the best moves.

 

YOU are trying to make the best moves as well though - you are saying that your way works for you, thereforeeee from your point of view, what you are doing is the 'best' way for you to meet someone. You may not be doing anything consciously that could be called 'a move' but you ARE trying to just be yourself, and being the nice guy. One side effect of this is that it will attract girls who like 'nice guys'.

 

start opening our minds to more

 

Which is exactly what you are not doing. You are not even opening your mind to any of the ideas that are being put forward. I feel as if i know where you are coming from because i've been there before, yet you are seemingly less willing to accept that maybe the way other people are might actually get you where you want to be as well. As i keep saying, you don't know until you try it.

 

But as i also keep saying, you shouldn't try it unless it is right for you, so i guess you just gotta keep at what you believe, and hope it all works out.

 

At the end of the day, i am having a great deal of fun in my life at the moment, and i'm not hurting anyone in doing so. I would like to meet someone to settle down with, but at the same time, i have come to realise that i'm not going to rush it...I have met a lot of women recently, and i've had a lot of interest. However, i have also been certain that none of them were 'right' for me, so none of them went anywhere. But its a great ego boost to know that the interest is there, and i know part of the reason for the interest is because of the way i act, and the way i talk to people.

 

The thing is Shysoul, i bet if we actually met up for a drink and a chat, we'd get on really well, and have lot to talk about. I think you'd probably be the kind of person i would sit down with in a quiet corner and have one of those deep interesting chats with. But at the same time, maybe i'd be the kind of person who would make you just act silly, and 'let your hair down' a bit.

[Carnatic]

I've always thought that though it may be true that many girls go for bad guys, not everyone can pull the bad guy off, it's best just to be yourself.

 

1) If you're not yourself at the start then somewhere along the line she will discover what your real self is and since she fell your the bad guy she'll lose interest in the real you.

 

2) Guys who are naturally nice usually can't be bad guys. I've tried once and the result was far from the sexy rebel I had in mind, taking people's advice on how to be a bad guy led to me being more of an annoying little s**t, I just don't have the charisma to pull it off, basically you are better at being yourself than anyone else, so play to that strength.

 

Thus I'm curious at how being a bad guy worked for you, how did you do it, maybe there is a speical way how nice guys can pretend to be less nice, or maybe you just have it.

[ShySoul]

Maybe I should be more clear. When people say nice guy/ bad guy, they aren't so much referring to the person as the actions. Everyone is a good guy deep down, but some choose to do actions that are clearly jerk like. I've pointed out before that we at times the nice guy will be a jerk and the jerk can act nice. But you can generally tell which way someone leans more. And it is pretty black and white in alot of circumstances. I send a note to the girl I've mentioned saying that I like her but I'm willing to wait until she works out the thing with this other guy and that I support her and will be her friend no matter what. Clear nice guy action. He lied to her about having a son, clear jerk action. There are grey areas which is where intent and motivtion comes in. The nice guy has no other motivation than to be nice, do the right thing, and make her feel comfortable. The more jerk like action is to do something with some other motive, such as creating "positive tension." It doesn't make you a jerk, but it is something that leans more to the jerk side.

 

discordant_verse, you are right for the most part. Alot of guys who complain aren't the real nice guys anyways. They are either just using the methods to "get girls" or are sick of waiting and throwing in the towel. But there are some who don't speak out of envy, like myself. I'm fine without the companionship and I don't even think girls are something to "get." Everything I've said has actually been more about being a good person and being a nice guy. "Getting girls" has just been the catylst, and a pleasant side affect for those who fully get what I'm saying. Though I don't think I'll need to get in gear when I find the right person, I'll already be there. I mean, when you are called "the perfect guy" by a girl there is no reason to change a single thing.

 

Again, maybe I'm just weird but I don't act different around different people. I don't try to act different and I don't act different naturally. How I am around one person is how I am around everyone. I am pretty mellow and quiet around eveyone, its who I am. I prefer deep discussions and will have them as much as I can considering most people don't show any interest in having those kinds of talks. I carry the same humor with me, different people don't make me want to be louder or mess around more. I'm not lying and I don't think I am dull, I just have a very unique perspective. About the only time when I might differ at all is around my best friend, only because we have so much in common, such similar interests, and know each other so well that I trust him with things I normally would keep to myself. But even then, I'm still the same deep, philsophical, weird joke making, goofball that I always am. Weird perhaps, but true.

 

I am NOT trying to make the best moves, I'm not trying to make any moves. I've even felt bad everytime I write about what I say working with meeting someone. Yes, that is a side affect and I recognize it. But that has nothing to do with what I am saying. The thought of whether this works or not doesn't even cross my mind. I'm just saying it does to try and prove a point, that you don't have to resort to games and that nice guys do finish first. But the true nice guy doesn't even care about that and is nice simply to be nice. consciously or subconsciously, I don't have moves and I don't have game. Those thoughts don't enter my mind.

 

I have opened up my mind to everything people have been saying. I've considered these things for years and heard the same arguments before. They just never make sense to me. Seriously, if you had seen the things I have seen, the way love was twisted around into nothing through games and the kind of attitude I'm getting from you guys, you wouldn't be saying what you are saying. I hold dating and relationships in a higher regard because of it, when I could easily have given up and just stopped caring. If you want an ego boost, find another way to get it. Getting an ego boost from having people show interest in you is not quite using them to make yourself feel better, but isn't a good sign either. I'm not rushing it either, but I figure, why even make it part of my life if it isn't going to go anywhere. When the right person comes along, I'll know and I'll devote my whole self to it. Until then, theres no point in being part of the games and having to deal with unnecessary confusion,uncertainty, etc.

 

Carnatic, you are right in everything you said. Don't change a thing. Girls don't go for bad guys and if they do they have issues that you don't want to deal with.

[huszar]

Sorry if this isn't quite coherent I've had a few brews

 

Most "nice guys" are not nice at all. Look at the things most of them say when a "jerk" bags their girl of choice.

 

"He could never treat her as well as I could."

"She's stupid for ignoring me and going for the guy who'll hurt her."

"He doesn't respect her like I do."

 

Truth is, most nice guys WANT the same things as jerks do. "Nice guys" want to get freaky too. But they won't go for it and hide behind the guise of "nice". Most of you nice guys are jerks sans the fortitude to go for what you want. You are jerks without confidence. You are no "better" a person than the guy you try to belittle. Problem is, he doesn't care, he's the one having the fun because of his ability to at least TRY for what he wants. A "true" nice guy is someone absolutely happy with who they are. They don't stew within themselves over their inability to attract somebody. They still have the guts to tell a girl to go jump off a cliff if she's not holding up her end.

 

Furthermore, women are not objects. They are no different from you, and there is no need to place them on top of a pedestal. A relationship is made of two equals, not a goddess and a worshipper below her. Want to know why that girl doesn't like you even though you were "nice" to her? Do you respect yourself? Obviously you don't if you walk on eggshells to be perfect for that other person. If you are putting that much effort in, they should be trying equally as hard to make YOU happy. And she probably isn't.

 

And girls want to have a good time! How the hell can that happen if you aren't even confident enough to do what YOU want? You exude no energy to her, she is not going to be excited. If you met a girl who was submissive to you 100%, wouldn't that get boring? Yes, it would. You make it not a challenge, she knows you will submit to her will, and eventually lose respect for you. No one respects people who are submissive, so stop it.

 

Fate isn't for the meek. Ever read a history book about someone who played it safe and tried to please everyone? No. Because that attitude gets you nowhere - you'll always be someone else's doormat. And that's not a good life.

 

I personally guarantee you that if you stop being full of yourself, let go of these "fantasies" you have about the perfect person, be honest about what you want and go for it you will be 100% more successful. People of all kinds get together everyday, that means you have a chance. But YOU need to make it happen! If you wanna win you have to play the game!

[spatzcolumbo]

I've said it before, and i'll say it again, maybe we'd ALL find someone a lot more quickly if we spent less time posting on here

 

Seriously though...

 

Shysoul, you know i respect your opinions and the fact that you stand up for them so strongly, that is great, and is a really admirable quality, but at the same time, its just the same as i am doing.

 

However, obviously i can't post without making the odd comment....

 

The more jerk like action is to do something with some other motive, such as creating "positive tension."

 

Positive tension is nothing to do with leaning towards either end of the scale - its not something i set out to do, its just a nice side effect of certain interactions with certain people. Take the girl i am interested in at the moment - there is a real buzz between us for whatever reason, and a lot of electricity, and out of that comes teasing, and fun. We both love it and we both laugh a hell of a lot because of it. But thats nothing to do with being a jerk!!

 

Again, maybe I'm just weird but I don't act different around different people

 

That's fair enough - some people are kinda like that i guess - what you see is what you get. With me, i just react differently to different people, and as far as i'm concerned, that is JUST as natural as you being the same with everyone. You'd probably be the kind of person i would end up having a big old deep conversation with about random interesting stuff.

 

Seriously, if you had seen the things I have seen, the way love was twisted around into nothing through games and the kind of attitude I'm getting from you guys, you wouldn't be saying what you are saying.

 

If you'd seen some of the stuff I have had to put up with, you'd maybe see where i'm coming from too. Trust me. I've seen my fair share of failed relationships, and difficult relationships, just as you say you have!!

 

If you want an ego boost, find another way to get it. Getting an ego boost from having people show interest in you is not quite using them to make yourself feel better, but isn't a good sign either

 

If someone shows an interest in me, it is a natural ego boost - its not something i am going out looking for, but if someone comes up to me and tries to give me her number, and tells me she'd really like to get to know me better, then i'm gonna take that as a massive compliment. There is NOTHING wrong with that at all. Making yourself feel good is one of the best things you can do. Are you saying that if someone came up to you and said she thought you were hot and she'd like to get to know you better, that you would dismiss it, and you wouldn't take the compliment and naturally feel top of the world for a few seconds?

 

When the right person comes along, I'll know and I'll devote my whole self to it. Until then, theres no point in being part of the games and having to deal with unnecessary confusion,uncertainty, etc.

 

Thats great too, and i agree you have to let things happen naturally. The trouble arises when you leave things to happen and end up MISSING the right person for whatever reason. I know its not how you see it, but from my point of view, the 'games' that you might be part of in the meantime are merely a way of having some fun, meeting new people, making new friends, all that kind of thing. I can think of 4 women who have asked ME out, and i've said thanks but no thanks. I still see them all the time out at the bar i go to, and i still chat to them every week, and we get on great as friends. If i hadn't given them a chance in the first place, and chatted to them a bit, i'd never have known - the way i see it, if i keep going like that, one day one of them will be the RIGHT person, and it'll be great!

 

----edit-----

 

Just something i was readin, and wanted to post it here because maybe it will help to demonstrate what i see as the benefits of teasing, apart from the 'fun' thing:

 

When engaging in a good bantering/teasing/flirting session, we feel two things:

 

1. The need to have our own good response. When we do, we are so proud of ourselves and we enjoy the feeling. We "translate" this to mean that the other person helps us to feel good about ourselves. And this is the reason many people report as the reason why they fell in love.

 

2. The need to be challenged: if the other person has a good response, our own mind is stimulated.

[yahoo2]

Shy Soul, you don't get the point, which is it isn't about nice guy vs. bad guy.

 

YOU just need to drop some of the behaviors nice guys do which IMPLY that no matter how a girl treats you, you'll still be there for her. You can still be a nice guy, but you ALWAYS give the impression that you ARE NOT waiting for her, because you have many other women to pursue. And do you give this impression? I'd guess not. I'm sure all your "women friends" know that you have no steady girlfriend, and don't get girls for that matter. How do they know this? Because you're their emotional tampon. Believe me, the way to get dates with women is NOT to imply that you're always there no matter what. Then they take you for granted, and you are NOT BOYFRIEND MATERIAL.

 

Believe me, you DO NOT want to imply this. Case in point: you sent a message to your girl "friend" that you like her, and will wait for her no matter what happens with her current boyfriend. BIG MISTAKE.

 

Now, she does not have to make a choice. She can still see this guy, date other guys, and meanwhile, there you are, waiting for her, getting absolutely no action whatsoever. Why? Because nice guys don't act, they wait. Passivity of this type is feminine, and women don't like it because you aren't making a stand. You don't imply "Get me now, because some other women will want me if you don't." You state your admiration is unconditional, not dependent upon anything she does or doesn't do.

 

Believe me, women can't respect somewhat who doesn't define limits, and you don't do that with women.

 

YOU MUST date many women to find the one that is right for you. The simple reason is that most women just are not suited for you. They have issues, different interests, etc.

 

If you are not dating a lot because of what you are doing (and you aren't doing the right things, for sure) then you must change your responses to how women will test you to see if you are boyfriend material. AND THEY WILL TEST YOU. If you fail, you become a "friend". That is not good.

 

It's not too late for you, but you are extremely thickheaded, and like to postulate from the depths of a complete LACK of understanding of women. Having few dates, no girlfriends and many women that call you their emotional tampon is a state every successful male MUST avoid if he is to find the right woman.

 

Please change these behaviors:

 

You cannot be there for them no matter what. You must imply that you are chasing other women and your time is limited. YOU CANNOT BE "THERE" FOR SOMEONE WHO IS NOT "THERE" FOR YOU. This is a basic law of human behavior-we do things for people that do things for us. Your women friends do nothing for you except dump their woes on you and ask for your emotional support. You get nothing in return. Not what you want, which leads me to the next thing.

 

BE HONEST about what you want. You are hiding your desire for these women by willing to be friends with them. You get none of what you must admit men want-the physical part of the male/female relationship. You don't have the balls to go after what you want. Sure, you send them love notes, but your love is unconditional. Bad move. You're wasting it on someone who is uninterested in reciprocating.

 

Albert Einstein said,"Insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting different results." That's what you're doing with women.

 

For Christ's sake, pursue ONLY women that show a physical interest in you, because the physical relationship is something the male MUST have. It fulfills you, makes you want to do things for the woman, it is infinitely more satisfying. It is what makes the world go around and is the motivation for much of what society achieves. Don't keep denying your sexuality. Embrace it.

 

If a women does not show interest after a few dates, DUMP HER. Your time is precious, and you must find the right woman. The physical aspect must be there for both of you. If you're not getting it, move on. ONLY see women that reciprocate in the sexual aspect as well as the emotional. If your women need a shoulder to cry on, tell them to watch Oprah. You don't have the time to be their emotional tampon-it's a waste, when you should be pursuing other women.

 

Don't like games? Don't play them. Just be aware women play games and they don't give a damn whether you believe in them or not. They'll still use them on you. It's a test. Know how to pass the tests they will throw, or you'll be left clueless as to what you did wrong.

 

You can still be a nice guy, but for God's sake, lose the naievete that goes with it. You MUST wise up and do the things that will let you date more women, and change your behavior so they will see you as boyfriend material.

 

Take Einstein's advice. CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR. You can still be a nice guy, but set some limits to your fawning affection for women. You put them on a pedestal, and they know it and manipulate you. You have no game.

 

Finally, GET OUT THERE. If you truly have a lot of dating experience you wouldn't be saying some of the things you do. The world will wise you up and show you the right course, but you aren't doing the things you need to do to get it done.