modesty/shy guy vs. arrogant bad boy

[spatzcolumbo]

Hey Shysoul,

 

obviously you are happy with yourself and the way life is going, and thats great for you (nice feeling isn't it!!).

 

Just out of interest, how do you see things going in the future in terms of the way you say you will wait for that right person. I know its a silly question, but just wondering where you draw the line - what happens in five years if you still have not met that person, and find yourself feeling lonely? What happens if the same is true in ten years? Do you KEEP sitting back expecting it to all fall into place?

 

Obviously this is not likely to be the case, but being as this is a discussion board, i'm playing Devils advocate!!

[ShySoul]

Hey spatzcolumbo,

 

Yeah, it is nice to be happy about how things are going. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm happy about the person I am, but things still don't seem to go right for me. Eh, sooner or later things will go my way. Optimism, right?

 

Playing devil's advocate, huh? That's fine, I've done that myself from time to time. I don't see myself changing this philosophy. I've had the same romantic notions as far back as I can remember and don't have any desire to change. Yeah, ideally I would have hoped that something would happen before this point and I don't necessarily like the idea of waiting another 10 years, but whatever obstacles life puts in front of me is just another challenge to overcome. Going through the struggle and seemingly endless wait will only serve to make me appreciate that love all the more when it does happen. And I've also got a bit of a stubborn streak in me, particularly when it comes to things I am passionate about. Hence the reason I stuck to my views and defended them when about five guys we're trying to tell me I'm wrong. So if anything I'll stay to my beliefs just to get the last laugh on fate and everone who says I should give up the wait. I'll show everyone that my way not only works, it will provide a love for the ages. Gosh, you'd think that with such romantic thoughts, someone would have taken an interest in me by now.

 

I'll also point out that its not just sitting back and expecting it to fall into place. There is some work involved, just not active searching. I've had a couple opportunities that life presented to me, but it didn't work. One was my fault, the other was bad timing and circumstances. So life does give opportunities, more than you probably realize. What you need to do is realize them and grab them when they come along. So in the next ten years I would expect the opportunity to arise.

[DropToZero]

Gosh, you'd think that with such romantic thoughts, someone would have taken an interest in me by now.

--Shysoul

 

THAT!!! THERE!! You said it finally.... I'm not going to try and be mean....but this will come off badly in saying, you sound like some sort of 'love philosopher'...yet you don't even have a degree in dating....to some extent. Everything you SAY sounds great...no problem with it, your actions are what seem to prove otherwise. I can undoubtly say that you probably are a great guy,and your intentions mean well, and your thoughts sound very provoking in the idea of relationships.....but...THAT saying, UP there....is why you aren't getting someone to become romantically interested in you.

 

This is what I have been doing my very very best to try and get thru your head. NO girl gives a crap WHAT you think about her, it won't matter if you tell her you're madly in love with her, whether you think you'd be a great b/f(which personally, is a bad thing to say), and that the guy she is with now is a jerk. Your WORDS are not speaking louder than your ACTIONS, it doesn't work that way. What I have been trying to get thru your head, b/c even I was horrible at this, and still am learning...is flirting....not JUST being nice. A girl ONLY cares what she thinks of you, not what you think of her. If you flirt and tease and mess with her nonstop, that IS how attraction is created. You want attraction to grow over time..I mean, its possible..but unlikely at the way you're proceeding. I need you to understand that your actions of being nice do NOT comprehend thru a girls mind the same way they do thru yours. You think being nice, and only nice, and a gentleman, paying for things etc, will make her more attracted to you.....when really, almost...not all, but most guys are like this. I am, I know, now I won't pay for everything yet, b/c I've learned that a girl will actually come to respect you more if you do split dinner and dates 50/50.....now if you want to become really involved with her, sure you can pay, but in the beginning..dating..no. In the end..Ill say this again...girls ONLY care what THEY think of you, and nothing else....if you've flirted with her, messed w/ her head a little(some mixed signals) that's what gets doubt flowing thru her head, and the idea that maybe...just maybe you like her. I KNOW this all sounds soooo wrong...but you have to stop now....don't try and understand WHY girls think this way, they just do.... I just don't know how I can get it thru your head that your idea of being nice is not coming accross in the same way you think it is in your mind as it is compared to a girls.

 

What's wrong tho? Whats not going your way...Just interested...unless its that personal. You did state things weren't going great, so I'd guess you'd be interested in saying something about it.

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

I am passionate about. Hence the reason I stuck to my views and defended them when about five guys we're trying to tell me I'm wrong. So if anything I'll stay to my beliefs just to get the last laugh on fate and everone who says I should give up the wait.

 

Yeah i can tell you stick by your views, and that is an admirable quality (but at the same time thats exactly what the rest of us are doing!!). In any case, as long as we are all happy in what we are doing, then thats what matters at the end of the day!!

 

There is some work involved, just not active searching.

 

I could not agree with you more on this point. I can not understand it when people go out and actively seek things out in terms of love and relationships. People look too hard for what they think they want, and end up missing what is actually right for them!!! I know too many people like this, and all that happens is they end up falling for someone just because they think it is what they want and because they want 'someone' so badly.

 

But at the same time, if you do make that connection with someone and you KNOW it is what you want, then there is nothing wrong with doing things to make that feeling stronger. Thats kinda what i was trying to say earlier.

 

LtAwseome yet again hitting the nail on the head though...playing a woman hot and cold is what really gets the fire burning!! Thats what gets people really interested and keeps them coming back for more!! Because they can't quite figure it out, but they know that they want to figure it out, and the only way they can do that is by being with you.

 

I dunno maybe it just doesn't work like that for everyone, but i've never had any kind of sexual tension or chemistry with anyone without there being a bit of hot and cold to get it going...you gotta have the tension in order for something really full on to develop, otherwise it will end up as JUST friends, no matter how much you like the person!!

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

Wow, I only threw that line in there as a joke. I was in a decent mood so I decided to pick a little fun at myself, no need to pounce on me like that. Anyway, if I sound like a "love philosopher" then good. I've always loved philosophy and have had a philosophicle mind. You yourself are intrigued by what I'm saying. What I say and what I believe is who I am, there is no disconnect. So if what I say, what I believe, and what I do are all in agreement, I don't see a problem.

 

My words and actions work together, one doesn't speak louder than another. They both say that I am a nice, good guy who treats everyone with respect and compassion. Yes, girls do care what guys think of them. Girls spend just as much time wondering if guys like them as guys think about girls. Have you not noticed posts by girls wondering does he like me? You mean there aren't alot of girls who dream about being with someone who will love her, respect her, and hold her? Have you every noticed how many ads there are for things like jewelry using the selling point that it shows how much the guy cares about her? All you have to do is search this site and find post after post about girls complaining that there guy doesn't treat them right or wondering where all the nice guys are.

 

Really, your misunderstanding me. I'm not thinking that being nice will make her more attractive to me. I'm not TRYING to MAKE someone attracted to me. You don't make attraction, it's something that happens and grows over time. I'm being nice for no other reason then because it is the right thing to do. Your also still not getting what I nice guy truly is. I know not to pay for everything, that's just asking to be used for your money. I've seen someone dig themselves into a financial hole because they thing they have to pay for everything, as if that shows how much they care. Really, all he's doing is trying to buy her affections. Now, paying for things occasionaly is the gentlemanly thing to do and should still be done. But there's no reason you shouldn't split 50/50. That's what I did when I meet the girl I've mentioned. But being a nice guy isn't about the big things like that, it's in the little things that most guys don't think of. Remembering her favorite flower or favorite ice cream even if it was just mentioned once in passing. That shows that you really listen to her and care enough to remember something important to her. By idea of being nice is simple be nice. The way I would hope it comprehends in a girls mind is "that was nice." Nothing more than that. I'm not looking to impressive or create attraction, I'm looking to be nice. Oh, and most guys aren't like this. Most guys don't open doors or believe in chivalry these days, and many who do don't have the noblest of intentions.

 

I know that what I'm doing will work and there is no need to change. How do I know this? Because virtually every girl I've talked to has agreed with me. What better place to go then straight to the source? If you think that a girl ONLY cares about how she feels about you and don't think that they care about how you feel about them, you are sadly mistaken. Honestly, you sound like your stuck on playground philosophy, how little kids will tease someone and saw they hate them when really they like them. Girls are more mature than that and you should be to. Doubt isn't such a good thing. Sure, there's the possibility you like them. There's also the possibility your a jerk who doesn't know when to stop. The best and easiest way to find out how someone feels is to just ask them and be honest about things. Stop wasting time with games.

 

No offense, but I'm going to keep my other stuff personal. I don't feel like talking about it, particularly to someone who has just tried to dissuade me from one of my core beliefs.

[ShySoul]

spatzcolumbo,

 

So you know, I don't really expect any of you to see things my way. I figure that you'll stick to what you think and that one day you'll see it on your own. Time will tell who has the right stance on this. Changing peoples minds isn't why I'm here. It's to present and defend a way of thinking that most probably haven't thought of. If nothing that we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. I stand up for my beliefs and what I know in my heart is right not to convince others, but because I can and because I believe in what I'm saying.

 

Glad to see we agree on the not actively searching part. What you described happens all too often and its a shame. The thing is, if the connection is there you don't really need to do anything to make it stronger. It will grow stronger through the naturally course of things. The only times that you really have to put yourself out there, so to speak, is to clarify where you stand and make things officially (e.g. asking her to be your girlfriend) and then when you propose, making it hopefully forever.

 

I get what you are saying about keeping them coming back for more. But that just has to much potential to backfire or for miscommunication. It turns everything into a game and afterawhile the game isn't fun or exciting, its just plain annoying. On the otherhand, if you are honest and straightforward, everyone knows where they stand. You don't have to wonder how someone feels about you, you'll be able to tell. If you are interested in the person, why pretend that your not? Why not just go for it, assuming you have been friends for awhile and have taken the time to get to know each other, not just rushing into something blindly.

 

Relationships are not built upon tension, they are built around friendship and a mutual understanding of each other. Honesty allows that friendship and understanding to grow. You can have fun together without tension.

[spatzcolumbo]

they are not built around tension, no, but whether you like it or not there is ALWAYS tension in any relationship. the kind of tension i am talking about is positive tension. Tension does not have to be a negative thing. The tension i am talking about is the tension that means there is chemistry between 2 people, or electricity. It is the thing that really draws the distinction between just being friends, and being something much more than friends.

 

I think the problem is that maybe it is not all that easy for me to explain what i mean with words on a screen - you take a lot of the things i say in terms of standard definitions and understandings of the words that i use.

 

Trust me, in relationships, there is such a thing as positive tension, and it plays a large part in defining our emotional feeling for someone.

[DropToZero]

Wow, I only threw that line in there as a joke

 

Yea, I get that it was only a joke, its still the idea...I could tell it was sarcastic, whether it was a joke or not, you know that you wish it were true tho. With all your thoughts and feelings about relationships, you'd think IT would be working....but for some reason its not....is it?

 

Okay..yes...You're turning this around tho. Girls don't care what YOU feel for them. Girls care....once they feel for you. Then, and only then will they begin to question. See...all these girls that are posting those "Does he like me post?"....they are posting them b/c of what I have been trying to get you to do. Tease...and flirt more.....don't you understand that girls LIKE to wonder whether or not you like them. The girls that post those usually have caught the eye of some certain guy, or they've flirted with him, but the guy NEVER tells her that he's mad about her etc.... That is why it works....girls say they want up front answers, but I'll say it again, most girls dont know what they want. I don't want to try and understand why they think that way...they just do. Girls can dream about whatever they want...anyone can dream....and then sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Most girls want guys to 'sweep' them off their feet...that's the ideal dream Ive heard of a lot...but just being nice won't sweep her off her feet for long. You need more...

 

Yea, I'll agree, girls like to know that you're thinking about them. They like the idea that you've listened to them, and sometimes, but not always, just surprise her with something that shows her you were thinking about her. Most guys dont open doors and stuff?....I dont know..maybe I should start a post on that or something...I was pretty sure everyone I know does stuff like that....its almost understood. Now occasionally, you're probably right, but most girls will pick up on that...unless they really like him. That is what I'm talking about tho, you can go out with a girl and open every frickin door you can, and pull every chair at every restaurant, but that will not make her more attracted to you. You're trying to 'stand out' in the world with your idea of being nice, when to most guys....its nothing new to them to hold a door or be courteous.

 

You go straight to the source?....Oh wow lol, I thought I was just learning all of this from you. You think I never talk to girls?...I used to do the same thing you probably do, meet girls online, chat rooms, etc....talk about being nice....some deep online convo's here and there. That's why I used to do it, and don't do it now. That was back when I was ONLY nice, and nothing else, that won't work. I'm stuck on a playground philosophy....I'm sorry? haha, ...if there is one thing I've learned since getting into the real world...is that all adults, are just big children lol. It's true, I don't care what anyone else says, if you're some workaholic, who does nothing but be serious all day, you're boring...you've gotta have fun. Adults are big kids...nothing more....some may be more of kids, but that doesn't mean they aren't out dating and teasing girls. I like that...girls are more mature than guys....lol....If only you knew what you were talking about. If you think girls are more mature, and dont like to tease....then why do I have an older cousin who actually kinda laid it out on me on why I'm so much better with girls now. She knew that I was being too nice, too bad she never pointed it out before. Girls love being teased, when they say 'stop...or shutup' ...they're just being playful. If she really really really hated the fact that you were messing with her, she would leave or tell you to. I've been told to shutup playfully before....its fun, keep it going tho....if she was having a bad day and actually MEANT it, just move on. Girls seem to like mixed signals tho, that's what makes them think about guys so much....once you tell a girl that you like her...you've ruined her fun.

 

You don't want to tell me...the online girl isn't working out the way you wanted it to? I know it sucks to learn that everything you THOUGHT about girls was wrong.....I just wish for once, you would let loose a little and go just mess around with a girl. Give up your complete niceness for one day, go to some far away town to ppl you'll never see again. Go talk to random girls....don't be mean, just don't act like a pushover, I know you have your own beliefs, tell her about them, try and add a joke or two, make fun of HER a little bit. I would put a nice size bet on the fact that if you did learn to flirt well, and sounded believable while teasing her without caring so much of what she thinks of you, you could actually come home from that town with a few phone numbers. You think life is too serious...even I have this problem a little....let loose.

[Shidoshi]

Shidoshi, I make it sound simple because it is. Most things in life are not as complicated as people make them out to be, including dating and relationships.

My friend, if it were not complicated this board wouldn't even exist. Yes, some people make it more difficult then it needs to be, but it certainly isn't easy in any case.

About those instinctual desires, call me crazy but I understand what my true desires are. You say I have emotional and sexual needs. True. But I don't need to be in a relationship to satisfy them.

How do you figure? I don't know what your definition of a relationship is, and when I use the term it can mean a variety of things, but whether you have one-night-stands, long-term-relations, etc....it HAS to be with another living breathing human being wouldn't you say? Solo sex can relieve tension, but it can by no means replace the interaction you get with another person.

As for those sexual needs, again, how do you look at those needs? To me, it isn't so much sexual needs, as a desire to be loved and fully understood for who I am. Sex is just a means of expressing that connection. It is a bodily method that is based on emotional and spirtual needs.

I think your getting too caught up in what the purpose of sex is. Everybody has their preferences for how they want it to happen, but the basic necessity for having sex is to reproduce. Without sex, there would be no motivation to be with the opposite sex. Some people don't like hearing that, but sex is an extremely important part. Love, spirituality, desire....call it what you want, but there is no denying the basic component of wanting to have sex for the sake of having sex. Do you think theres anything "spiritual" about a girl who fakes an orgasm because she's tired and wants her partner to finish?

That is what I am looking for, love. When I find it, or more accurately when it finds me, then I will have satisfied that desire.

You know why you want love? Because love is comforting, your not necessarily hunting anymore. But thats what a lot of people want, and it certainly isn't going to fall out of the sky into your lap. Especially if you're not out there playing the field. So far it seems like you are head-over-heels in love with the "idea."

[ShySoul]

spatzcolumbo,

 

There can be chemistry or electricity between two people without there being tension. Tension would imply a sense of push and pull, jockying for position, two forces in opposition. I think that's what your saying. You hold back or tease her so that you get an upper hand and she is the wondering or thinking about you more. Then she'll do the same thing. But it doesn't have to be that way. There doesn't always have to be that kind of tension. The electricity of which you speak comes from the similiarites, the shared emotions and feelings. The feelings are not defined by the tension, but by what the things in common and shared emotions, experiences, understanding, etc.

 

I'll give you credit, your actually making me think to defend what I say. Congratulations, most people rely on the same tired arguments or resort to sarcasm and personal attacks. But you are intelligent and well though out in what you say.

[spatzcolumbo]

Hi Shysoul,

 

Hmm i think i see where you're coming from in what you say, but i still truly believe that the electricity and chemistry between 2 people IS tension. It's just not negative tension.

 

I'm not sure how to try and explain the way i understand it in my head, but its kinda like if i have chemistry with someone, then i see it as a good tension between us - there is clearly some kind of extra level of emotion there (as you say the similarities and shared eomtions etc). I think that from my point of view, i often see this extra level of emotion as sexual chemistry, which for me is a positive tension. I don't see this kind of tension being about any kind of push / pull or jockying for position. I see it as something good that happens naturally with any passionate relationship. For instance, lets say (for the sake of it being a nice thought more than anything!!) that you meet your PERFECT partner next week, i would HOPE that there would be a positive tension between you. As well as all the loving caring side of it, there is an almost animalistic tension between you.

 

Does that make sense? Sometimes i confuse myself, but i know what i mean!!

 

The holding back / teasing side of things is something i would do in the very first instance of meeting someone who i am interested in. Purely for the anticipation it provokes. If there is some form of holding back, i merely do it so that i know she will really look forward to the next time we meet...it just adds anticipation to something that both people are already looking forward to. I don't generally keep that kinda of thing going once i am in a relationship with someone. When i am actually seeing someone in a solid relationship, it is much more about the things you talk about - loving, caring, trust, open-ness, sharing, enjoyment. HOwever, for me, there still needs to be that positive tension there to keep it that notch above 'just best friends'. I agree with you in that one of the most important (if not THE most important) things in any relationship is that you be best friends with your partner. BUT, i also believe it is vital to have something to take it to the next level. For me, this is the role of the positive tension, although this is not something that can be created - it is either there between 2 people or it isn't!!

[ShySoul]

spatzcolumbo,

 

I think we're closer in our views than it seems. What you call tension I see as a connection. I'm calling it what it is, a bond, a tie that brings two people together. Calling it "positive tension" sounds good but there is a much easier way to describe it. Call a spade a spade. It's a connection, so just call it a connection. You say that positive tension is what takes things to another level. Well that positive tension wouldn't have a chance to do anything if it wasn't for the being best friends and sharing that special bond and connection. It's the emotional and spirtual connection between two people that fuels everything else.

 

I don't see the animalistic side. I see a relationship not as something that brings out the animal in us, but something that brings out the more humane side. It's something that makes us fly, something that makes us more than human. To quote a song, we become saints and angels. I don't place value on the animalistic instincts or the sexual tension, in my mind it's all about love, passion, and spirit.

 

You agree with me that in the end the holding back/teasing won't work. So why be one way before hand and then change? I am a loving, caring, trustworthy, open person. That's the kind of things that allow a relationship to work. So why not just get used to that right up front. I'm not saying reveal your entire life to her or go to fast. Don't say certain things until you are comfortable talking about them with each other. But don't hold back just to create anticipation. That just doesn't seem honest or right. Besides, if you really get along and things are going well, you'll already be looking forward to meeting again. Creating extra anticpation isn't necessary. The girl I've been mentioning, neither of us has been trying to hold back or create anticpation but we clearly look forward to each time we talk to each other. We meet a couple of weeks ago and when we talked the next night we just admitted that we we were looking forward to meeting up again. Nothin' but the truth. It's worked thus far and we're meeting again tomorrow.

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

Your right, I do wonder some times why I haven't found the right person. Just like you wonder that at times, or anyone wonders that. But I don't let it get me down for long and can turn around and laugh at myself. My whole vision will pay off in the long run. When love does find me, I'll appreciate it more for all the wait. It does work, I just have to be patient until that happens.

 

Even if girls like to wonder if you like them, they like it more when they know for certain. So if you like them and you think they like you, just tell them already. No reason to drag it out or make them, and you, wait. While your busy playing games, you could be playing much more fun and exciting games . If girls don't know what they want, who are you to say what they want? Your not them. You can't read there minds and know exactly what they want. And if you try that just comes off as manipulative. Listening and communication is key in any relationship. The majority of girls say they want a nice guy to sweep them off their feet. Try listening to them instead of thinking you know what's best. That kind of attitude may even get you into a relationship, but odds are it will also be what gets you out of one. And note that I'm not trying to read there minds here, I'm basing this off of everything girls have told me throughout the years.

 

Your missing the point. You don't open doors, pull out chairs, etc. so that girls will be attracted to you. You do it because it's the right, polite thing to do. I'm not trying to stand out by being courteous, I'm just being myself and doing the right thing. The sad truth is that most guys aren't like that. And the ones who are usually have ulterior moitives, the whole trying to impress her thing. That's not what's going to allow something to grow between us, it's going to be the connection we have with each other, how well we understand each other. I'll be a gentleman to any girl not just ones I'm attracted to, simply because it's right.

 

Your right, adults are big kids, but that could be in a good way or a bad way. The good way is what I try to incorporate into my life. It's having that wide eyed innocence and naturally kind heart. That's before they get all these ideas engrained into their heads about having to act, look, think a certain way. The bad way is what your doing, resorting to the immature acts of teasing and picking at others.

 

Again, your making out like I'm all serious and don't have fun. I have pleny o' fun, but my idea of fun isn't teasing and saying potentially hurtful things. I'm actually a very lighthearted and silly person with a great, if a little odd sense of humor. But I know when it's okay to laugh and when it's not. When it comes to people's feelings, thats nothing to mess around with. You can be nice, have fun, and end up in a great relationship, without teasing being included. And yes, girls are more mature. I'm not saying all girls are like this. I've always admitted than some girls like "the game." But with those girls it's going to be one huge game and it's easier to lhave the real relationship get lost somewhere in there. And eventually these girls will grow sick of games and mixed signals and want something definitive. I've said it before, your way may lead to goodtimes for awhile, but it's what I'm saying that leads to forever and the happiness that comes with it.

 

I could just go mess around with a random girl, but then I would be disgusted with myself afterward for betraying who I am and what I believe in. I would feel horrible to treat someone like that just for the sake of getting a phone number, assuming I even got one. It's not me and above all else I have to stay true to who I am. If I'm not me, then I'm no one. You still don't get this, being nice does not mean being a pushover. If I was a pushover then I wouldn't be fighting back so hard against you and defending my believes. I would have give up a long time ago saying, "well, think whatever you want, I can't say anything to counter that." Back to the letting loose, if I've waited this long, why would I want to go for some random girl? To prove that I can do it? That's no reason. I know that I've got everything I need to be in a lasting relationship and that some girl will find be attractive enough to be in a relationship. But the girl I would want in that relationship would be one who respects my believes and wouldn't be attracted by the flirting or making fun of her.

 

Oh, and if you want to know about the girl from online, okay then. It's working out better than I ever expected. Let's go through the list. I meet her in a chatroom where I wasn't expecting anyone to talk to me. I expected that we wouldn't have anything in common and to my surprise found out we have a lot in common. She messaged me the next night, again to my surprise. I expected to talk every now and then, we talk everynight usually for a couple hours or more. She brought up talking on the phone which we've done several times. We meet in person two weeks ago and had a great time. We are meeting again Saturday night. Plus, we've got tickets to go to a concert together in June. Now, considering that I'll I've ever expected is a friend who I talk to occasionally online, if that, I would say things are going way better than expected. And all this has happened without teasing, making fun of her, or holding back. I've been a gentleman and said nice things. I won't say that anything else is going to happen, it's not what I'm looking for. But if it does, it sure won't be because I've followed your way of thinking, it will be because of be sticking to my believes and finding someone who understands and respects them. You know, talking to this girl has only confirmed everything I've ever thought about girls. Hope you are lucky enough to find someone like that one day.

[spatzcolumbo]

Hi Shysoul,

 

You say that positive tension is what takes things to another level. Well that positive tension wouldn't have a chance to do anything if it wasn't for the being best friends and sharing that special bond and connection.

 

I disagree with you entirely here. My point is that the connection that i call 'positive tension' can happen with any random person - there does not need to be anything there in terms of 'best friends' first.

 

I could go out tonight and meet my dream partner, and marry her and stay with her for the rest of my life. Part of what might bring us together would be a positive tension between us. A Spark. Chemistry. Electricity. But she is not my best friend, because i have only just met her.

 

I don't place value on the animalistic instincts or the sexual tension, in my mind it's all about love, passion, and spirit.

 

Once again, i disagree with you on this, because the way i see it, the animalistic side of it is there whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, we ARE animals. We have sexual desires and there is nothing wrong with that. Animalistic behaviour and sexual desire both make up a part of what relationships are about. Love and lust are often mentioned in the same sentence, and it is said that they are two very different things. This is true, but it does not mean that they don't go hand in hand.

 

You agree with me that in the end the holding back/teasing won't work. So why be one way before hand and then change? I am a loving, caring, trustworthy, open person. That's the kind of things that allow a relationship to work.

 

Teasing still works later on in a relationship - it is fundamentally about having FUN. I have always teased my girlfriends , whatever relationship it has been in. They enjoyed it, i enjoyed it, and it did not have any kind of detrimental effect on the relationships. My point was more that the kind of teasing maybe alters naturally. It is playful in a different way. I do not change who i am once i am in a relationship. I am still the same fun teasing kinda person!!

 

But don't hold back just to create anticipation. That just doesn't seem honest or right. Besides, if you really get along and things are going well, you'll already be looking forward to meeting again. Creating extra anticpation isn't necessary.

 

Why not hold back to create anticipation? What on earth is wrong with that? It's not being dishonest. It is just not giving the whole game away. IN my view, relationships, and the creation of relationships should all be about having fun. I'm not sure that you understand me when i say about holding back, or playing 'hot and cold'. For me all it is about is having a bit of fun, and making sure that there is the extra anticipation there. Obviously like you say, there will already be the anticipation there. You suggest that as it is already there, then there is no point in doing anything to create MORE. Why not? Anticipation is a good thing, and you can never have too much of a good thing. Its not about what is necessary. Its about what feels good. Its not necessary for me to hold the door open for someone and let them pass through ahead of me, but its a nice thing to do!!

 

To me it almost seems like you are limiting yourself in setting these rules for how to go about your relationships. You are very quick to label everything as either right or wrong, but never give any room for any middle ground. Why not, just for once, try and do something that creates that extra bit of anticipation.

 

For instance, next time you see this girl, if you get to the stage of kissing her, then do so, but then pull away playfully. She'll go mad. It will make her want to kiss you more. Do that a couple of times, then go in for a kiss just before you say goodbye. Then, just as she wants a goodbye kiss, playfully pull away again, and say "you know what...i'm gonna make you wait until next time to see me...then you can look forward to it twice as much". Leave it at that. It will drive her crazy and she'll want to see you FAR sooner than she did before!!

 

That is not being dishonest at all, its just playfully creating a sense of anticipation!!

[ShySoul]

Shidoshi,

 

Quite to the contrary, I find that most things in life are rather simple and a matter of common sense.The reason that its so hard is because people have gotten it stuck in their heads that it has to be difficult. The hardest part is actually trying to get people to see that it isn't complicated at all and having patience when no one listens to you. Most of the topics I find on this board are matters of common sense. And for the really complicated ones, those usually could have been solved before they got so complex if the people involved had used more common sense and made a better effort to address things earlier.

 

Okay, I must have been tired or distracted when I wrote that post as I wasn't as complete as I usually am. I was not referring to solo sex as a way of replacing human interaction. I meant that I don't need a relationship to fulfill the emotional needs. Those can be satisfied by becoming happy with who you are as an individual. As for the sexual desires, yes you need to be in a relationship, but it should be a loving permanent relationship and those needs are not the primary needs being met. They are just a by product, an enjoyable way of expressing the more important and deeper spiritual and emotional needs.

 

Now, sex is intended to help repopulate the species. That's one reason but its not the only or primary reason. Even using that as a line of reasoning, wouldn't you think that if you are going to bring a life into this world, you would want to bring it into a loving environment? The world can be harsh as it is, there is no reason that a baby should be born into even harsher circumstances. When a women gives birth I don't think she is thinking about populating the species. She is thinking about her child and how much she loves him (that is, after the whole pain of labor ). A couple is thinking about how that life is a product of their love for one another. It's not about sex for sex or about procreation. It's about the circle of love.

 

There is a reason to be with the opposite sex without sex. Plenty of couples wait a long time before engaging in sexual activites,waiting until they know that they truly love each other. Their motivation is love, the sex comes later as a way of expressing that love. And I haven't actually researched examples, but I'm sure that you could find cases of people who for someone reason couldn't engage in sexual activites but their partner stayed with them because they love each them. As for the girl faking, clearly she wasn't getting the kind of satisfaction she was looking for. The love wasn't there and so it wasn't as enjoyable. That scenario is far more likely to happen with people who are just in it to have sex for the sake of having sex instead of for love.

 

I want love because it means that there is someone who cares about me, understands me, and will be there for me. More importantly, it means that there is someone with whom I will be able to relate to and be there for when she needs me. That love isn't something that you look for, it is something that happens. "Playing the field" turns love into a game and as I've said plenty of times love is not a game. It happens when the time is right, not when you want it to. Yes, I do love the idea of love. I've managed to hold onto what love is truly about even when experiences and other people's words have told me that I should give them up and become as jaded and cynical as many people seem to be. I'm not going to do that. And when the love I've waited for arrives, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that I never gave up and was rewarded for it in the end.

[ShySoul]

Hi spatzcolumbo,

 

We've got a clear difference of opinion then. You could meet the women of your dreams tonight and end up marrying her. But it won't be because of the tension. Tension can not create that spark, it has to be there. And what demonstrates that it is there is the connection you have. If you find yourself talking to someone for hours, it will be because you have enough in common to talk with someone like that, not simply because of a spark.

It's not the best friends that comes first. It is having things in common and having an understanding, that connection with the other person, that allows you to feel comfortable enough to get to know each other real well. The more you do so, the better friends that you become. Then that spark goes off that says she is the one for you. To recap: things in common and connection, get to know each other, friendship, spark, forever. The "positve tension" could happen with any person, but it isn't what causes the relationship to work.

 

At the end of the day we should be transpiring to be more than animals. Even if you want to say we are animals, we are more evolved animales who should be using our other facilites to better our condition instead of just giving into our base bodily instincts. Two people can have sex out of lust and they'll find it satisfying. But that satisfaction pales in comparison to the feeling when it is out of love. Lust is settling for what feels good, love is what makes it feels great, heavenly. Besides, sex is mental and emotional more than physical. Think of the example that Shidoshi used, about a women faking orgasm just to get it over with. She is going through the bodily motions but not enjoying it because there is nothing emotional or spirtual happening. It's not lust that matters, its the love.

 

Okay, if there is already anticpation, there is no need to create anything because it is already there. Starting a relationship is fun. But you don't need to hold back to create the fun. What could be more fun then the feeling that someone truly cares about and loves you? What could be more fun then spending time with someone who makes you smile and brightens you day? What could be more fun then feeling the NATURAL rush and excitement involved? That feeling is quite intoxicating itself and feels pretty darn good. You don't need to do anything, espcially if these feelings are already there. I have no need to create anticipation. This girl I've mentioned, there is clearly anticpation to talk to or see each other again. I met up with her last night and later that night when we were talking online we talked about how much fun it is and how we need to do it again. We look forward to talking everynight, have both said it feels weird if we have to miss a day, are clearly having fun... there is already fun and anticpation and I haven't had to create anything. Judging from what I know of her and what she's told me, if I was to hold back in attempt to create tension and build more anticpation, she would get angry at me. Yes, I could try your way but then I'd be blowing a friendship that is going great. No thank you.

 

As for pulling away from a kiss, are you NUTS!!!! If I am in a position to be kissing a girl and she actually wants me to kiss her to, why in the world would I pass that up. From what I hear kissing it is a pretty nice thing. If I have the chance to kiss someone I care about, I'm going to kiss her. I mean, I've waited 22 years for that opportunity. I'm not going to start playing games when the time finally comes, I'm going to enjoy and savour every kiss I can. Why make her crazy by not kissing just so she will want to see you sooner. If your at that stage then you'll be wanting to see each other as much as possible anyway and you'll be kissing again then. Why not just kiss her then and kiss her again later. Remember what you said, too much of a good thing is a good thing. If that's true than the more kisses the merrier. If the girl wants to be driven crazy, drive her crazy with the warmth and passion of each kiss. She'll appreciate much more the idea that you want to hold and kiss her as long as possible, not wanting the moment to end.

 

Ok, to show I'm not unreasonable I'll try a middle ground. How about teasing so long as its teasing yourself. Make fun of yourself. It doesn't risk offending her and it shows a sense of humor. It doesn't hold back or create anticpation. But it does make her laugh and she'll have a good time. Plus I bet there are plenty of girls who would smile and appreciate a guy who says guys are idiots and pigs.

[spatzcolumbo]

Hey Shysoul,

 

Obviously we both know that we think pretty differently on all this, but i have one or 2 other things to say.

 

The pulling away from a kiss is something FUN to do...you don't always have to pull away from it for a long time...its just like with-holding it for a few seconds...LIke she goes into kiss you, and you pull away slightly just to tease her. PUt it this way, you always want more what you can't have. I'm not saying refuse to kiss her completely, i'm saying just pull back a bit to tease her. Its like in a film i saw last night - if you are going in for a first kiss, then go in 90% of the way, and let her come the remaining 10% of the way...you go in far enough that everyone is clear what is wanted, but you linger long enough for the sense of anticipation to build up.

 

As for the middle ground you are talking about, that is BRILLIANT. Finally we agree on something. When you say about teasing yourself, that is part of teasing her. For instance, if i tease someone, then they usually tease me back, because i do it in a way that makes them feel comfortable being around me. The reason for this is that they see that i don't take myself too seriously, and am able to make fun of myself. This puts people at ease because it makes them see that they don't have to worry too much about upsetting or offending me - they can relax and have fun.

 

So you are completely correct in that the ability to make fun of yourself is VITAL. The thing is, you still do not see my point of view in terms of teasing someone else. I am pretty much 95% sure that you have teased a girl before who you have been interested in. Teasing can be as innocent a comment as "hahaha you're hair is all over the place!!" after walking along on the beach on a particularly windy day. I can not believe you have never made even the smallest of comments like that. This is what i mean by teasing - i'm not talking about saying things like "wow you clearly slept badly last night...you look like you've had an elephant sleeping on your face". FUN teasing, not offensive teasing.

[DropToZero]

Hey all,

 

spatz gets at what I've been trying to say. I've been really busy..finals comin up ...oh yay! I can try to explain this in other terms to...as human, we all want what we can't have. In essense, IT IS what makes a girl fall for you. ..because it happens to guys too. Teasing is flirting..teasing...making fun of...I kind of wish I had saved an online conversation I had with the girl I am dating and posted it on here, so you could see my definition of teasing, even when I'm not with her in person. And everyone knows how hard it is to show sarcasm on AIM, so it makes it even more fun when she can't tell if I'm kidding at first or not.

 

Back to pulling away from kissing..yea that works. People want what they cant have...I've met girls, who I had no interest in, and I thought they did me, then to learn that they have a b/f....makes me interested. It's really had to explain why, but its how it works. The more available a person is, the less valuable they are in your mind, the less you have to think about them, because they are always there. That's why you shouldn't spend countless hours on the phone or AIM with a girl or etc.... It'll get boring, you've become too available, and she'll start taking less interest. So, if you learn to control your own desires of wanting to talk to her and hang around her all the time, she will begin to become more attracted to you. Aka, the less you're around, the more she is thinking about you. This works both ways too though, b/c even I went a few days without talking to this girl b/c I had been busy, and then I...I began thinking about her more ....and it sucks because that makes you think about her too much....becoming needy. In another way of explaining it..its like how if you work like 51 weeks out of the year...that's what makes that ONE...that ONE vacation you get SOOOOO much better b/c its the only one, and you'll have to wait another year to get it again. Just like if I went to see this girl on a monday, and waited again till like friday to see her again, she'll look forward more to the fact that she'll get to see me b/c it comes around less often. If I came every day...my visits would become less valuable in her mind, becoming too available. We're human, everyone gets tired of things...I mean, god I love candy, but I used to run a vending machine business....now I could care less b/c I used to eat it every day. We all get tired of the same old thing every day.

 

spatz again, gets it...Teasing, making fun of in a sarcastic way, you have to KNOW ..or learn how to do it so she knows its teasing. Flirting otherwise, its how I got something I never used to get when it came to dating. I went on dates in HS, and couldnt even get a girl to touch me, that's why I had never been kissed even. Teasing is what makes her want to touch you, which in turn, once she touches you(whether it be a playful punch on the arm for making fun of her hehe, or a hug), once she touches you tho, that means she's opened the door for you to touch her. Now I don't mean badly...just the idea that I had to come accross that I could never understand this till I began teasing.

 

As for your friend you've met online and are dating Shysoul, good luck. I think what I can get at, is the fact that you two don't get to see each and every day....so just keep that up, don't give in and let her become your life. I think it could work out well actually. Till next time, later.

[spatzcolumbo]

I completely agree with what LT is saying.

 

Take the touch thing for example - this is a MAJOR thing when it comes to dating and getting in the position to have a relationship with someone. Teasing is one of the channels which allows touching to be acceptable, and comfortable. Its like the last girl i was interested in - we had the whole teasing thing going on, and because of that there was plenty of playful slaps on the arm. Or an even more obvious example was when we were looking at something and were both kinda holding it at the same time....we both kept brushing fingers, when there was really no need to. There is NO WAY this would have happened between her and any of my other friends who were also there. The reason it DID happen, is because we had reached a certain level of comfort through friendly teasing and flirting.

 

The kissing thing is not only about it being fun and building up the anticipation, but is also about subtly saying to her "i know what you want....i know you want to kiss me...but i'm in control of things, and i'm gonna make you wait a few seconds longer til you get what you want". Read that sentence back to yourself...thats how long it needs...just that TINY amount of time, and it will drive her mad!!

 

The one thing that you have to be careful about is how you make contact with people physically. It has to be neutral enough to not be threatening, but personal enough to make it clear that you are comfortable doing it, and want her to feel comfortable too.

 

I'd also like to say one more thing relating to this entire post.

 

All my advice is pointed towards dating and flirtation in general. Shysoul, i think one of the things i am trying to point out is that attraction can happen anytime, anywhere. Because of this, you can not always assume that she will see enough of you to get an idea of who you actually are.

 

A lot of the things that i talk about are merely about getting people to notice you.

 

For instance, lets say that you are in a bar and you KNOW that someone has been looking at you, and you like what you have seen of them. Now let's say that you can't go and actually say something to them (maybe they are with friends, or are talking to the DJ, whatever!). One of my favourite things to do in this situation, which almost guarantees an opening up the chance for chat later, is to walk past them on your way to the bar, and just brush your body up against them, whilst glancing at them for a split second, then just carrying on to the bar as if they are just any other person. To anyone else standing by, this looks like NOTHING at all - you are on your way to the bar. But to you, and to her, it says SO much more.

 

You break down 2 barriers immediately...firstly the touch barrier, and secondly the communication barrier.

 

After this, you get the opportunity to talk, and to roll out the nice guy personality.

 

None of that process is about being a jerk or anything like that. It isn't about manipulating her, or anything underhand. It is about using your eyes and other non verbal communication to let someone know that you are taking an interest in them.

[GATSBY]

Mabye its a bit of upside down human nature....we want what seems unreachable.

[princess05]

n/m i wrote something but reading other repiles makes me see that i think i replied to the initial question. so, sorry

[Caldus]

It's true. Teasing often works very well on a date. It removes some pressure from both sides and also spices things up a bit. Humor will always work in your favor unless it's a really bad joke or whatever. The basic idea is that you don't even know whether you truly want her yet so you're removing that pressure right from the start.

[tanned_production]

I dont believe that ALL girls love the bad boy image. I went thru a phase where I did.... it didnt work out. The boy didnt respect me... he didnt treat me the way I wanted to be treated...

 

the best advice i can give you is be yourself... faking your image is not going to get you any farther. the right girl will come to you.

[gersanos]

I just wanted to chim in on this conversation.

 

Basically, the majority of men fall into 2 categories.

 

On one side is the macho boy: arrogant, can have jacked physique, doesn't smile much, etc., but in time becomes controlling and possessive with the girl that he is dating and treats her as his property. He has more than his fair share of insecurities. He is the bad boy, a bastard.

 

On the other side is the wimp: this guy has a great personality, would make a great father, has lots of things going for him, etc., but, he has one major character flaw, and that is his inability to say "no," to stand up for himself against a girl, he does everything for her, etc. In essense, he lacks a backbone. He is the nice guy, too sensitive.

 

Women go back and forth between these 2 groups of men. They want the bad boy, but learn in time just how much of a jerk he is, and how much he makes her hurt, so then they go to the nice guy, but he gives her everything in the world, and then she loses interest and respect. The cycle repeats itself.

 

Then there are those rare few men in society. The one that has qualities of both, but is balanced and refined. You cannot be an extreme of either one of the two mentioned above. Too macho and you're a jerk, too sensitive and you're a wimp. This one treats a girl with respect, but knows his limits and boundaries because he is the catch, the prize, not the woman. HE evaluates whether this is a girl he wants to continue dating, eventhough he provides her with lots of fun and good times when they hang out. He takes one step forward with a girl, and two steps back. He keeps her on her toes, and when she gives him crap, he knows where the door is and does not hesitate to leave. He is the sensitive bastard.

 

This is not about changing one's personality. This is about smoothing out the edges of your personality, and know how to date. 99% of women out there are not right for you. Know how to weed them out first, because, trust me, she is weeding you out. She is a girl. She has plenty of men trying to hook-up with her, date her, get her attention, etc. Ever hear of women testing men? Well this is it, the weeding out process. Pass her tests, and you're in, stumble somewhere along the line, and it's "see ya."

 

Women stay with certain men over others because of the way she feels about him. It does not matter how the guy feels. Yes, it sucks for guys, but this is the way it works. Initially she is attracted to you, so she has selected you. Now you have to know when you are chosen, and enjoy the ride. There are 3 things that help form attraction, and will ensure her how YOU are different from all the other guys on this planet and make her want to be with you.

 

1. Confidence = 33% of the package. We've all heard this term. Now confidence is broken up into 2 sub-components, (a) self-confidence, and (b) self-esteem. You have both of those fulfilled, then you're ok in this department. If not, work on it. Guys with confidence do not dish out ultimatums to women, and are sure of themselves, but not arrogant. The woman may very well think he is arrogant, but that is because he has natural, genuine confidence which is rare.

 

2. Control = 33% of the package. Control is broken up into 3 sub-components, (a) discipline, (b) patience, and © not reacting. Control is the toughest one out there to master about one's self, and the one where most guys struggle. Have patience with the girl, you play you're cards right, and you're in. Do not rush things. If this is Ms. Right, then you'll have a lifetime to spend with her and get to know her. Don't react to many of life's blows and the games of courtship. Example, you and you're date are out, some attractive looking guy comes up to her and starts to talk with her. What do you do? Do you explode? Make a scene? Complain to her about it? Or do you just walk away? Ignore it? Pretend like it never happened? Take it as a compliment that this guy is telling you that you have great taste, a great girl here. Remember, she is you're date, she will be leaving with you at the end of the evening. She is not a piece of property. She is not someone you bark orders to. Control is a very critical aspect of what it means to be a real man, aka, gentleman, aka, sensitive bastard.

 

3. Challenge = 33% of the package. This is the approach in the early stages, many of times the first 90 days of dating her. This is where she looks for ways to weed you out. But be a challenge. Learn what this is, and what this means. Keep her on her toes. One step forward, two step backwards. She doesn't know your strategy here, and is intrigued by you. This is the mystery, the romance. You always call, be available, cater to her, etc., well, that's no fun for her, she got you too easily, and she lost interest. Imagine if a girl just fell on your lap and did everything for you. You will get bored. There is no mystery, no excitement, no what's going to happen next. The passion is gone, and the mundane sets in. Be a challenge. Have and LIVE you're own life. She was interested in you and your life when she first met you, don't give that up for her. Don't call her everyday. Don't see her everyday. Make her wonder about you. Make her miss you. 90% of relationships don't last more than 3 months. Are you going to be her next 3 month man?

 

Lastly, do not change the way you were from the beginning. Why was she attracted to you in the first place? Was it because you were outgoing? Funny? Charming? Aloof? Smart? Sarcastic? etc. Do not alter that to a great degree as time goes along. You took great care of yourself before you met her, don't get comfortable with her because then you'll get lazy and start to slack on your appearance, physique if you work out, the "little things" in the relationship, etc. That is not the man she fell for, was into, wanted to be with. Be consistent with you're actions and behavior. If she changed, well that's because something about you changed, and she doesn't feel the same way about you anymore.

 

Women are not crazy. That is a cop-out. Learn to understand how women think, which is by feelings. Feelings lead to thoughts, thoughts lead to actions. What she says is irrelevant, i.e., "I love you" but then is all over another guy. The old adage comes in perfectly here, "Actions speak louder than words." Always look to her actions to figure out what she is thinking. You don't "talk" about it. The majority of communication is non-verbal. Understand body language. Whether it's a guy or a girl, you can tell a lot of what they are thinking by just reading there body language. If she calls you all the time, wants to spend time with you, and always seems to bump into you by "accident" does that make her crazy? No. This girl has strong feelings about you. If you like her, then just don't ruin it by always answering her phone calls, always agreeing to meet up with her, etc. Trust me, even if this is mutual, it spells nothing but disaster. Imagine eating an entire gallon of ice cream in one sitting. What happens? You get sick to your stomach. How do you avoid this? Spoon feed yourself to her.

[spatzcolumbo]

And there we have it.

 

In one simple, well laid out post, gersanos has managed to say exactly what i have been trying to get accross all this time.

 

Spot on. Good work. There are a lot of people who could learn a lot by reading this post.

 

The only thing i would add to it is that as well as keeping her on her toes, you should always try to stay on YOUR toes...never stop thinking about ways to keep things good - read up, know your 'game', and know yourself. Know what you want at all times.