To Vaccinate or Not?

[Seraphim]

I dunno. There was more said than just talk to your dr. She's a brave soul if she comes back to talk about this one.

[annie24]

I was moved by Snny's story - she almost died due to her mom contracting chickenpox while she was pregnant. The OP said she thought that chickenpox was a harmless virus, and true, in many people it is annoying but passes (like in my childhood). But it is a dangerous virus to infants and the immunocompromised, and I hope that the OP has learned something. My goal here has been to lay out the scientific and medical facts.

 

And I'm not saying that doctors are all knowing and perfect. And if any real, peer-reviewed studies with proper statistical reporting showed that vaccines were harmful, I would change my tune. But I think that there is an epidemic of scientific and mathematical illiteracy in this world. You'll see anti-vacciners saying this or that, and most non-scientists and non-doctors can't tell that the study is total crap. I think that instilling stronger math and science education in our schools is of the utmost importance, so people can understand the difference between results and opinions.

[tiredofvampires]

Dude, you're linking to a site run by a quack....

 

No, I'm not. I linked the OP to the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), which contains in its mission statement:

 

Our Mission

The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is dedicated to the prevention of vaccine injuries and deaths through public education and to defending the informed consent ethic in medicine.

 

As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices.

 

Our Work

NVIC provides assistance to those who have suffered vaccine reactions; promotes and funds research to evaluate vaccine safety and effectiveness, as well as to identify factors which place individuals at high risk for suffering vaccine reactions; and monitors vaccine research, development, regulation, policy-making and legislation. Since 1982, NVIC has advocated that well-designed, independent, on-going scientific studies must be conducted to: (1) define the various biological mechanisms involved in vaccine injury and death: (2) identify genetic and other biological high risk factors for suffering chronic brain and immune system dysfunction after vaccination; and (3) evaluate short and long-term health outcomes of individuals, who use many vaccines, and those, who use fewer or no vaccines, to determine the health effects of vaccination on individuals and the public health.

 

This site is current, and as I said, the video featured supports the comments I've submitted so far.

 

As you can see, they support/fund ongoing, non-prejudicial scientific research.

 

This is a site the "quack" refers readers and consumers to. Which is how I originally found it.

 

I am all for skepticism, guys. But in the interests of it, it's important to remember that, as I said before, sometimes the purveyors of the "correct" information have an agenda as well. Is it not possible that the sources that cite this doctor as a "quack" are themselves not to be trusted because of their own propaganda, or are simply IGNORANT? Just something to think about -- in general. Question everything and everyONE, is my critical-thinking motto.

 

As for the excerpts I posted, yes, I'll agree that some of the material is dated. (And Annie, I DO read medical journal articles and abstracts directly, but the ones I can access are limited, due to the fact that I do not have a professional account to read PubMed articles in their entirety. I have no idea why you can't find those articles. I don't believe he just made them up -- too many people respect his site. Weird.) I wasn't so much interested in whether this was up-to-date information on polio (and polio is not the concern on the OP), whether there's no more polio in the U.S., etc. My point in posting that (and in hindsight, I probably should have just linked the NVIC, which he supports, since I'm not here to clear his good name as a doctor), I was trying to point out that vaccines carry dangers and that in cases, they may not have the desired effect -- it was true then, and it's true now. People didn't know about things then...and people don't know about things now.

 

They can tweak these formulations this way and that, but the problems still exist.

 

My mission was to give the OP more educational ammunition, and to encourage her to research more and apply that knowledge to her own case, so she could make the most informed decision. I felt that since every poster here was weighing in with one POV, it was valuable to present another for balance. That's what a forum is for. I probably would not even have posted on this thread if she hadn't said that her son already had had an adverse reaction to vaccines, but I felt that given that, she should be very circumspect about weighing these risks, which are real. I wouldn't want her to be a statistic because she was just following the common wisdom that vaccines are extremely safe, and not taking into consideration all these cautionaries.

 

I've provided an evidence-based medicine, consumer-driven, non-profit resource, and one that specifically speaks to chicken pox vaccine. Nowhere in my post do I refer her to blogs, or derive my info from blogs. Maybe she will find it useful. At least it's worth admitting into the conversation. imo.

[tiredofvampires]

OP: this is an excerpt from the page on the chickenpox vaccine from the NVIC site. They also list ingredients of the vaccine(s) on this site, and info on all types of common vaccines.

 

 

 

link removed

[agent1607307371]

Hi OP, I have only anecdata to add to this but when I was a child I caught chicken pox. I was too young to remember it, but I'm told I wasn't a happy baby.

 

Then when I was a bit older, because I had the chicken pox I had an outbreak of shingles, which is really nasty and I remember that.

 

A couple of years ago I began getting numbness in my left side - full on local anaesthetic style numbness down my arms and legs. When it hits your rib cage it's very scary because you can feel how much pressure it actually takes to draw a breath and you think you're going to suffocate. I also started getting the most awful staticky pins and needles.

 

The doctors gave me an MRI and I have a Cervical Myelitis. On a spot in my spine the protective sheath that coats your nerves and lets them do their job properly has been worn away. It's not something that can be fixed. I have that because I had shingles, because I had chicken pox.

 

 

I'd also like to point out that by not vaccinating your son, you're turning him into a carrier. He might not catch something, but that doesn't mean he can't spread it off to someone who will. Vaccination is as much about the wider society as it is the individual.

 

Just because something isn't deadly, doesn't mean it doesn't have other unpleasant effects.

[agent1607307371]

Tov - if you're posting from an anti-vaccine site, I'd really question the validity and bias of their content.

[Batya33]

I can't find the link but there is a recent and very effectively presented "infographic" I think it is called to show as well as tell us about the discrediting of the link between vaccines and autism as well as to discredit the myths of injuries from spacing out the vaccines or delaying rather than sticking to the typical schedule.

 

I think someone else already posted that of course some children/adults should not be vaccinated because of allergies or medical conditions that would render the vaccine harmful. I know our school district provides for exceptions for that type of situation.

[Cheetarah]

Tov - if you're posting from an anti-vaccine site, I'd really question the validity and bias of their content.

 

The national vaccine information center is indeed an anti-vaccination advocacy group.

 

When I was pregnant, I did a lot of actual research(as a layperson) on vaccines, the benefits and associated risks. Of course I wanted to know what I was putting in my son's body and if there was anything legit about the claims floating around.

 

My son does not have allergies or any medical conditions that would make vaccinating him problematic. If he had a severe allergy, anaphylactic shock severe, of course I would seek a medical exemption or discuss any possibly alternatives with his doctors.

 

The issue with reacting shortly after receiving vaccines is that you are also at a doctor's office where there are sick kids and germs abound. When my son was a newborn/ infant, they actually had a separate waiting room for well baby visits and we were never in the waiting room for more than a couple minutes. That's really important because at those tender ages, they are unable to be vaccinated, have an underdeveloped/work differently than an adult's immune system and really common illnesses for us or for older kids can be really dangerous for them.

 

It is like, after I got the flu shot last year I got sick. And I was also sitting next to a man who was hacking up a lung...

[Cheetarah]

Are these it, Batya?

 

 

 

 

[Cheetarah]

Those are tiny.

 

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[Fudgie]

I get my flu shot every year for work because I am around patients. Of course people don't realize it takes a little bit to kick in. If you get the virus beforehand, you will get sick. I've had influenza positive patients breathe and even sneeze into my face. I can't afford to not get vaccinated.

 

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[Cheetarah]

Right, it takes about 2 weeks for the antibodies to develop and protect. My son, mother and I are actually going this weekend for our flu shots. With my mom having diabetes and COPD, she really can't afford to get the flu.

[Batya33]

I find that for a few days after the flu shot I might be more tired, etc. -apparently for a bit after your immune response is decreased so you might feel tired/achey, etc. Certainly my arm hurts for a few days. My son has had the shot every year and has no side effects other than some arm soreness for a few days. I got the flu shot when i was pregnant but the one without thimerosal. I had the flu (thought it was that) in 1999 and after that I got the shot every year.

 

And yes, Cheetarah, that is the infographic. Thank you very much for posting.

[Moontiger]

NVIC certainly has its own agenda. Also, I cannot find ONE scientific study on their website.

 

ToV, since this is a scientific debate please post some CURRENT (post 2000) studies that support your position.

[Seraphim]

Just be aware you can still get things despite being vaccinated. They are not 100%. My husband is vaccinated against almost everything on the planet by the military. Gets the flu shot from the military every Oct. January 2 years ago he got the flu with the rest of us. It was just less severe.

 

 

It is not 100% in animals either . My cats have all their vaccinations. One my cats STILL has got cat cold 2 years in a row and has it right now. It is just less severe.

[Seraphim]

That being said my son and I will probably get our flu shot this year. We never had the flu before in out life before two years ago. And we've had it two years running. I have asthma and get secondary infections after having the flu. Two years ago the flu killed my grandfather. He had already had a flu shot and an immunized for pnuemonia but ended up getting both.

 

So please even if you do get vaccinated don't lull yourself into thinking you'll never get anything. Will it decrease the likelihood ? Absolutely.

[Cheetarah]

No, they are not 100%. And that's why it is even more important to vaccinate if one is able to. The seasonal influenza vaccine is designed by selecting the viruses most likely to spread. That's why a new one is created every year taking into account the previous year's vaccine effectiveness, and certainly does not include protection against each and every strain.

[Fudgie]

It is true that the vaccine isn't a guarantee that you won't get the flu. Especially if you're older or have immune system issues. It's definitely worth it in my mind because even if I got the flu after the vaccine, it would be much milder. That means that I'll get back on my feet more quickly.

 

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[Moontiger]

Another good resource with lots of references: link removed

[kamurj]

The thread has run its course