At what point do you just give up entirely?

[Blue Spiral]

Over the last twenty years, I've been engaged in a slow-motion retreat. A gradual withdrawal from society's model for relationships. (And, yes, I realize how pretentious that sounds.) I may be getting ready to take the next step.

 

When I was a teenager, I already knew that I never wanted to get married or have kids. When I was in my twenties, I realized that dating didn't sound all that appealing to me, nor did the whole "the guy pursues" aspect of things. (Yes, the dating issue didn't come up until I was that age; shockingly, back when I was a teenager, women weren't tripping over each other to ask me out, and I never had this alleged "the man enjoys being the hunter" urge.) After my second (and a half) relationship ended, when I was 26, I realized that I'd never enjoyed monogamy, so I switched exclusively to FWB.

 

That's basically what I've been doing for the last eight years, though I did try to will myself into monogamy/normalcy for my last girlfriend, as she kept trying to give me chances. (Seriously, she was still giving me chances early last year, hoping that I'd magically become monogamous/normal. Unfortunately, she's cut off contact, since then. I have to believe that most women would have given up on me long before that.) As a reference, keep in mind that my all-time record for being monogamous with a woman is...a few months. Maybe six, if you push it. Alternately, if you count "emotional" faithfulness or whatever it's called, my record is more like a week or two.

 

Regardless, I've enjoyed my new status quo, as it's low-effort and much less stressful. I never went in for any of the dating/relationship norms, so it only makes sense that I'd be happier outside of them. Unfortunately, as much as I support the FWB concept overall, it's becoming somewhat higher-effort and thus more stressful for me. I imagine it's a mixture of me getting older (the vast majority of women my age are in serious-relationship mode) and my increasing unwillingness to expend effort. As much as I think of myself as being sex-obsessed, I can't even bring myself to click on a button to flirt with a woman, sometimes. It's like Jetsons ennui. Or rather, it's the principle of the thing...I'm still the one initiating contact and making the approach, even if it's low-risk and low-effort, and I'm just sick of it. I'd rather be doing something I actually enjoy.

 

So, my question for myself is this: should I give up on FWB and just be truly by myself? I've gone through periods like that, in my life, so the idea is far from alien. When it comes to sex, I'm not like most guys--I can turn off the proverbial tap and be fine. This is probably because I was ignored by women for so long, and I sort of adapted to it. Before I was a teenager, I gladly ignored the outside world...but once hormones kicked in, sex was the hook that got me involved with society. I feel like I'm being freed, now. Maybe my sex drive is decreasing, maybe I'm just tired of dealing with the game-playing, or maybe both.

 

I'm actually pretty lucky, because I learned two key lessons early on. Lesson #1 came from my first girlfriend...we were the same age, but she was much more mature than I was (am), and much more mature than most people her age. She inadvertently gave me a preview of what was to come. We were both 19-20, and she'd just come out of her "wild period", and was ready to settle down and get married. Most people don't seem to do that until they're in their mid/late twenties. I watched her go through a personality transformation that was frankly astonishing. Her priorities changed, her attitudes changed...I'd hoped to be the guy she had fun with, but instead, I was the guy she wanted to be stable with. She'd already finished something that I was barely beginning. It was as if I'd looked down the tunnel and seen what was at the end, and I didn't like it. (This is when I discovered the Maturity Gap; more on that later.)

 

Lesson #2 came from my final girlfriend (second girlfriend, really; we won't count the half-girlfriend who was in-between the two). She was (is) truly, truly perfect for me in every way, and she gave me a ton of chances to be like most men and conform to society's relationship expectations. I still love her, and it was because of her that I realized even love can't change me into something I'm not. I'm not exaggerating when I talk about her, for the record--if monogamy was ever going to work for me, it would have been with her. So, I was very lucky, as I learned another lesson early on. I could have spent a decade or two trying to find someone like her, only to discover that I couldn't make it work anyway.

 

So, in a sense, I got a head-start: I realized that the big picture of relationships didn't really appeal to me, and I realized that I couldn't be monogamous, even in ideal circumstances. But, at the same time, there's the Maturity Gap.

 

The "Experience Gap" might be a better term, but that would get it tied in with sexual experience--which is related, but not the main component. Most people start getting relationship experience when they're teenagers. And, judging by the statistics, sexual experience soon follows. But, if you can't get a relationship--because of social skills, appearance, race, whatever--you'll quickly fall behind your peers. That's what happened to me. By the time I finally got a girlfriend, she was already in settling-down mode (granted, as I said, she was unusually mature for her age). Her breaking up with me sort of emotionally shattered me, so, by the time I was...twenty-three or so, I had five months' worth of relationship experience to my name. Whereas there were girls my age who'd been in near-constant relationships (even if they were just juvenile imitations of the real thing) for five or ten years.

 

I'm now 34; my two and a half relationships might add up to a year of relationship experience. I believe this is hurting my quest to attain FWBs. There's some sort of subconscious language, subtext, or sub-something that's present in sexual interaction, even if it's outside of a relationship, and I just don't have the social skills to pull it off. My lack of maturity/whatever is finally showing. That's a very sophisticated, intellectual way of saying that I'm having to expend more effort and yet getting less-hot women, and I'm just too lazy to continue doing it.

 

I definitely feel like I missed out. That, I freely admit, is part of why I got into the FWB approach. When I'm out in public, I see couples in their early twenties, who are presumably living together (they're shopping for groceries or furniture or whatever), and I never really got to do anything like that--at least, not for very long. I don't care about the relationship part; just the sexual part. The regular-access-to-sex-with-an-attractive-woman part. I'm trying to make up for lost time, and I realize that it's futile, but I wanted to come as close to it as I could. Unfortunately, the amount of lost time is now almost twenty years, in the sense that successful-with-women guys are hooking up with hot girls (their own age) starting in their mid-teens or so. Oh, I've had a ton of FWB success, far more than I can logically explain, but it still isn't enough for me. But, looking at the numbers and the effort involved, I don't think I can do it, anymore. So I'd rather just give up, as opposed to trying to deal with something unworkable.

 

Strangely enough, I feel like I did right after my first breakup, at least in terms of the situation I'm in. Back then, people told me to start dating (I never dated my first girlfriend, not really) and to get involved in groups/activities that I couldn't have cared less about, and even to go to bars/clubs. I remember thinking about the time/money/effort involved, thinking about how much sex I'd likely get in return, and saying "Screw that." Sure, if I work hard, I can keep getting FWBs, maybe even better ones...but I don't know that I care enough to do it, anymore.

 

So, denizens of ENA--what do you think? Should I give up on FWB and be 100% solitary, as opposed to my current 90%?

 

Also, let me note, this isn't an "I'm thinking about taking a break, maybe I'll feel differently later" post. This is me saying yea or nay to the most remote vestige of the relationship model, not me deciding that I need to "work on myself" or something ridiculous like that. I'm fine with myself, and I don't think the problem is within me, though I know many of you disagree.

 

Is there a relationship-ish construct for me? Should I give up and try to focus on other things?

[tiredofvampires]

I don't understand your post in a lot of ways.

 

First, what is it you're asking at the end? Whether to give up on FWB's/sex and become voluntarily celibate, or give up on monogamy, which you have already done? Or have you done it? You keep saying you've "realized" it's not for you, so that would imply it's either sex with FWB's or nada.

 

Next, you say the problem is not within you. Then where IS the problem and what/who is the cause? When you write this post about the conflict/problem you seem to have, who is experiencing that conflict/problem, if not you?

[savignon]

At least you admit you're not a relationship kind of guy and the effort is not interesting or rewarding for you. You get credit for knowing yourself that well and not misleading women to believe otherwise.

As women get older, fewer want flings/NSA sex and when they do they'll move on quickly to what they're ultimately looking for...meaning, you're right...your effort will have to increase because you won't have "regular steady access to sex" with the same person without a relationship.

As for giving up...that sounds like what a lot of people who do date go through.."maybe I'm destined to be alone and I'll just swear everything off". When that mood strikes, focus on yourself, do what you love and when a new opportunity comes you might be moved to make that effort for another fling. Just take it as it comes.

That's what we all do really...there's no guarantee that you're going to find what you want (a husband, wife, LTR, FWB..). Everyone just wants to find their own happiness and hopes it comes a little naturally without exhausting them.

I certainly hope you find yours.

[goodheartlady]

I am not sure if you have much to offer most women. I suggest you just stay solitary.

[Iggles]

So you're proposing from here on out to be a voluntary celibate bachelor?

 

I say, do what makes you happy.

 

People enter relationships for a lot of reasons. Some good (connection, companionship, love) and some negative (societal pressure, fear of being alone). They aren't easy but most humans want a mate because they are far unhappier without one.

 

Humans are social beings, but if you personally find you prefer being alone/solitary then go for it. I'm sure you have other social connections: family, coworkers, neighbors that require lower effort to maintain -- as you prefer.

[Angler]

I'm just sick of it. I'd rather be doing something I actually enjoy.

 

What are the other things you're not getting to do right now, and how much more time do you hope to spend on them if/when you give up finding FWB's?

[Rosti87]

I sounds like you might want to consider people who are into 'open relationships.' There is actually a subculture of people who don't believe in monogamy and prefer relationships that are sexually open ended. You sound like a candidate for that type of a partner. You might want to research that lifestyle and see if an option for you.

 

Otherwise I'm afraid you are going to have to put in a lot of effort to continue FWBs. Or spend a lot of money for professional sex.

[mbee]

I agree with Rosti that you may want to research alternative lifestyles. I think it's wonderful that you aren't leading women on but it does sound like you don't want to just throw out sex and that in some ways you may enjoy the companionship that a relationship gives... it's just the monogamy bit that is an issue. It would definitely be worth looking into... open relationships. Lots of people do it and I've met guys who openly are looking for a partner like that and I imagine the person they are with agrees to do it for one reason or another. Just a thought.

[Wayfara]

When it comes to sex, I'm not like most guys--I can turn off the proverbial tap and be fine. This is probably because I was ignored by women for so long, and I sort of adapted to it.

 

I'm curious how you have been ignored by women. You had your first relationship at 19-20, which is not that old, you have had 2,5 girlfriends and could have had more if you wanted. You have also had many FWBs and some of these want more. So you feel ignored because you are the one pursuing the sex? Seems like you have been pursued too, but for relationships.

 

I'd hoped to be the guy she had fun with, but instead, I was the guy she wanted to be stable with.

 

So the lesson learned was that relationships involved more than sex? I am assuming you had a sexual relationship so she wanted sex with you but also more but you didn't want this more, so you wanted to be her FWB but not her boyfriend?

 

Should I give up on FWB and be 100% solitary, as opposed to my current 90%?

 

Only you can answer that, if the efforts are worth the benefits.

 

this isn't an "I'm thinking about taking a break, maybe I'll feel differently later" post. This is me saying yea or nay to the most remote vestige of the relationship model, not me deciding that I need to "work on myself" or something ridiculous like that. I'm fine with myself, and I don't think the problem is within me, though I know many of you disagree.

 

If deciding to be solitary forever makes you happier than just taking a break nothing stops you from doing that. You say you are fine with yourself and like being solitary so I don't see a problem that needs fixing, within you or within anyone else, is there a problem?

 

Is there a relationship-ish construct for me?

 

You only want relationships that involves sex and nothing else and you don't like to be always be pursuing new FWBs? Is that correct? Then I am guessing you would want a more permanent FWB situation, like a FWB for life so you don't need to look for new ones. Not sure how hard it would be to find, maybe can you see if there is a market for permanent FWBs before you decide to go celibate, your choice of course.

[jenny_mcs]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you ideally want is lots of regular sex with attractive (to you) women, but not within a relationship, and not expending much effort to get it. If that is what you want, then yeah, I agree it's probably not going to happen. I think this really could only happen for a very small percentage of people who are very very good-looking, charming, or rich.

 

I don't see why this has to be some set-in-stone decision, either. If it's too much of a bother now, quit trying. Down the road if you feel like you really miss sex, or really need sex, go back to online dating, or however you have found your FWBs in the past.

[HeatherB]

If what you're doing is still working, why stop now? Why not wait until it stops working and then try something else? You don't have to be in a relationship to attain emotional maturity. I don't see old tibetan monks running around acting like doofs, for example. Whatever you set your mind to will grow and get better. You seem very happy and settled within yourself. I think that's wonderful, even if I find many of your ways, at least as described on this forum, quite foreign.

[Blue Spiral]

First, what is it you're asking at the end? Whether to give up on FWB's/sex and become voluntarily celibate,

 

That's correct. I mean, if I trip accross a woman that magically wants to have sex with me, I'll go for it. But I'd be switching from "minimal effort" to "no effort".

[Blue Spiral]

At least you admit you're not a relationship kind of guy and the effort is not interesting or rewarding for you. You get credit for knowing yourself that well and not misleading women to believe otherwise.

 

When I was younger (early twenties), I lost out on a lot of women, as I was upfront about the fact that I didn't want marriage or kids. Unsurprisingly, when they rejected me and got into relationships with more "serious" men, those relationships didn't end up resulting in those things, anyway. So I could have lied and been okay. I'm just too darn pure-hearted and honest, clearly.

 

As for giving up...that sounds like what a lot of people who do date go through.."maybe I'm destined to be alone and I'll just swear everything off". When that mood strikes, focus on yourself, do what you love and when a new opportunity comes you might be moved to make that effort for another fling. Just take it as it comes.

That's what we all do really...there's no guarantee that you're going to find what you want (a husband, wife, LTR, FWB..). Everyone just wants to find their own happiness and hopes it comes a little naturally without exhausting them.

I certainly hope you find yours.

 

Thank you. That said, when I make these decisions, I tend to stick to them. I can remember being a teenager and meeting some distant family members for the first time. They were asking me about girls and dating, and I said I wasn't interested (in dating, anyway). They all laughed and said that it'd change, and that I'd suddenly be chasing girls and asking them out and doing whatever I could to impress them. Yeah, that...never actually happened.

[Blue Spiral]

I am not sure if you have much to offer most women. I suggest you just stay solitary.

 

In a cold, purely social-Darwinism sense, I fear you're correct. All I have to offer is sex and attention, and the vast majority of women can get that from any guy. That's the floor, not the ceiling--the minimum expectation that they can afford to take for granted.

[Blue Spiral]

OK, I hate to make a zillion posts in a row, so I'm just going to informally multi-quote.

 

Iggles said:

 

"Humans are social beings, but if you personally find you prefer being alone/solitary then go for it. I'm sure you have other social connections: family, coworkers, neighbors that require lower effort to maintain -- as you prefer."

 

I'm not much of a social being, in all honesty. I'm not all that connected to my family or coworkers or neighbors.

 

Angler said:

 

"What are the other things you're not getting to do right now, and how much more time do you hope to spend on them if/when you give up finding FWB's?"

 

Well, it's not that I'm not getting to do them, it's just that I could do them more, as opposed to futile, annoying crap (i.e. social interaction). Those things include--but are not limited to--reading, playing video games, occasionally watching TV, and trying to take over the world.

 

Rosti said:

 

"I sounds like you might want to consider people who are into 'open relationships.' There is actually a subculture of people who don't believe in monogamy and prefer relationships that are sexually open ended. You sound like a candidate for that type of a partner. You might want to research that lifestyle and see if an option for you."

 

Yes, ideally, I'd like to be a poly woman's third or fourth boyfriend. Not even second boyfriend; that's too much commitment for me. But I live in a fairly non-experimental region, and the few poly people I've found online...well, they tend towards the scary. I'm a very, very vanilla person, outside of my inability to be monogamous.

 

Rosti also said:

 

"Otherwise I'm afraid you are going to have to put in a lot of effort to continue FWBs. Or spend a lot of money for professional sex."

 

No law-breaking here, I'm afraid.

 

mbee also mentioned open relationships, so I'll skip to wayfara:

 

"I'm curious how you have been ignored by women. You had your first relationship at 19-20, which is not that old, you have had 2,5 girlfriends and could have had more if you wanted. You have also had many FWBs and some of these want more. So you feel ignored because you are the one pursuing the sex? Seems like you have been pursued too, but for relationships."

 

I've been extraordinarily lucky, in some ways. Two amazing women were interested in me, but I just couldn't make it work. And, yes, I'm an inherently stable/nice guy, so certain types of women are drawn to me. But, no matter how well I treat others, I just can't make myself be monogamous (or enjoy it).

 

"So the lesson learned was that relationships involved more than sex? I am assuming you had a sexual relationship so she wanted sex with you but also more but you didn't want this more, so you wanted to be her FWB but not her boyfriend?"

 

Not quite. I wanted more--at that point, anyway--but I thought there'd be a whole lot more sex and a whole lot less social skills required. Keep in mind, I was extremely sheltered, and had no idea what a "normal" relationship was like. I had very unrealistic ideas about the whole thing. When I found out that it wasn't constant sex, and she actually wanted to talk about stuff and go do things, I realized that relationships were more like 33% fun, as opposed to 100% fun, and they suddenly seemed much less appealing.

 

Finally, jenny mcs said:

 

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you ideally want is lots of regular sex with attractive (to you) women, but not within a relationship, and not expending much effort to get it. If that is what you want, then yeah, I agree it's probably not going to happen. I think this really could only happen for a very small percentage of people who are very very good-looking, charming, or rich."

 

I never claimed to be realistic or practical. I want what I want, and if I can only get the pale imitation of what I want, I'd rather just not try at all, because the experience is too demeaning, otherwise.

[radiohead20]

Blue Spiral,

 

You give me an eerie feeling, you are like the future version of me, where I feel like I am going to end up being in 7 years.

 

As an INTJ that spends way too much time figuring out the cost benefit of pursuing the opposite sex as well as general frustration at the fact that what women are attracted to at the biological level seems to be the complete opposite of what I possess naturally. (Charisma/Extroversion, Leader of the Pack, masculine appearance). The only thing I really possess is confidence in who I am. Sure I can possess the other things if i work on them but its just ridiculously tiring, and so what? I can get a women I am attracted to in bed for one night and then spend months trying to cover my true personality up.

 

As a 27 year old that values his independence, his hobbies, and his 1.5 year old son (whole 'nother story) , I have no energy left to put on a face so I can attract a girl I am attracted too. So I have concluded I have to weight lift 4 times a week, spend money on decent clothes, get nice haircuts, learn social charisma, find time to approach 20 girls a week to get maybe 1 date, and to then go on a date where the girl probably has a load of options, a few of which are probably better than myself to her. Again, this is not what most guys have to do, most guys can get away with a lot of less and just being themselves. No Thanks. I'd rather spend that time with my son, traveling, working on my music. And I do not believe "work on yourself and she will come".

 

Ok I went off on a tangent talking about myself, but you get the picture. In fact, I just wrote a "ultimatum" to myself to exert absolutely no effort into the opposite sex, along with some "ground rules". Prior it was "minimal effort". Now, For example, if I go to a bar and an attractive girl ends up next to me I'll just ignore her, unless she has something OUTSIDE the realm of sexual interest on my part that I find appealing. The only time something would happen is if a girl overtly asked to go back to my place.

[Blue Spiral]

Blue Spiral,

 

You give me an eerie feeling, you are like the future version of me, where I feel like I am going to end up being in 7 years.

 

As an INTJ that spends way too much time figuring out the cost benefit of pursuing the opposite sex as well as general frustration at the fact that what women are attracted to at the biological level seems to be the complete opposite of what I possess naturally. (Charisma/Extroversion, Leader of the Pack, masculine appearance). The only thing I really possess is confidence in who I am. Sure I can possess the other things if i work on them but its just ridiculously tiring, and so what? I can get a women I am attracted to in bed for one night and then spend months trying to cover my true personality up.

 

I'm also an INTJ. And, yeah, I can relate...the majority of women are viscerally attracted to traits and qualities that I either don't have and can't get (height, etc.), or don't have and don't really want to have (pretending to be "confident" all the time sounds exhausting). I love the mixed messages we get, though. "Be yourself...unless your 'self' isn't attractive, in which case you need to change, or at least pretend to be something you aren't." I realize how Sesame Street it sounds, but, I like myself the way I am.

 

As a 27 year old that values his independence, his hobbies, and his 1.5 year old son (whole 'nother story) , I have no energy left to put on a face so I can attract a girl I am attracted too. So I have concluded I have to weight lift 4 times a week, spend money on decent clothes, get nice haircuts, learn social charisma, find time to approach 20 girls a week to get maybe 1 date, and to then go on a date where the girl probably has a load of options, a few of which are probably better than myself to her. Again, this is not what most guys have to do, most guys can get away with a lot of less and just being themselves. No Thanks. I'd rather spend that time with my son, traveling, working on my music. And I do not believe "work on yourself and she will come".

 

I think that it's hard for most guys, actually. People joke about 20% of men sleeping with 80% of women (or, to put it another way, 80% of women don't want to settle for a guy outside the top 20%, which is why you see so much cheating among the elite/successful, as multiple women compete/cheat for one successful man), but I think that number may be closer than we realize. Most guys I know don't have options and have to basically pay for everything and hope that they can find someone decent to settle for. The "dating math" just never worked in my head, so I never did it. That much time and money wasted, and for what, really?

 

Ok I went off on a tangent talking about myself, but you get the picture. In fact, I just wrote a "ultimatum" to myself to exert absolutely no effort into the opposite sex, along with some "ground rules". Prior it was "minimal effort". Now, For example, if I go to a bar and an attractive girl ends up next to me I'll just ignore her, unless she has something OUTSIDE the realm of sexual interest on my part that I find appealing. The only time something would happen is if a girl overtly asked to go back to my place.

 

Good for you. With feminism and increasing equality, women earned more dignity for themselves, and we need some dignity, as well. We can't just settle for scraps and think it's OK, or make all the effort while getting used and abused. Ironically, as I've gotten older (more "established", as certain ladies would say), more women have flirted with me offline...and I increasingly ignore them, unless they're really hot. I've already seen how that movie ends. I find myself thinking, "Yeah, she's paying attention to me now, but where was she ten years ago, when she was hotter and I still wanted a relationship? Right, she was ignoring guys like me in favor of an alpha male that didn't actually want a relationship. But now she needs someone to help pay for his kid, so..."

 

See, this is why I want to get out of this whole relationship system. It's making me think about negative things.

[Wayfara]

I've been extraordinarily lucky, in some ways. Two amazing women were interested in me, but I just couldn't make it work. And, yes, I'm an inherently stable/nice guy, so certain types of women are drawn to me. But, no matter how well I treat others, I just can't make myself be monogamous (or enjoy it).

 

I understand you not enjoying monogamy, not everone is made for it, but these women did indeed want you, just not necessarily just for sex, so why does that make you feel ignored? It doesn't seem to me like they ignored you, more like they weren't compatible with you.

 

Not quite. I wanted more--at that point, anyway--but I thought there'd be a whole lot more sex and a whole lot less social skills required. Keep in mind, I was extremely sheltered, and had no idea what a "normal" relationship was like. I had very unrealistic ideas about the whole thing. When I found out that it wasn't constant sex, and she actually wanted to talk about stuff and go do things, I realized that relationships were more like 33% fun, as opposed to 100% fun, and they suddenly seemed much less appealing.

 

Okay so you thought a relationship would be constant sex and no talking and doing things? How is that different from wanting a FWB? Or you mean you thought it would be like a FWB but with even more sex like an FWB on turbo? Or are you saying you did want do other things than sex with her, like talking and doing things but to a lot lesser degree than her? Sorry for being confused. May I ask how your fantasy ideal relationship looked like in your head at that age? A lot of sex I get, but was there anything else you wanted in it too?

[Blue Spiral]

I understand you not enjoying monogamy, not everone is made for it, but these women did indeed want you, just not necessarily just for sex, so why does that make you feel ignored? It doesn't seem to me like they ignored you, more like they weren't compatible with you.

 

A few women have, indeed, genuinely wanted me. I attribute that to dumb luck. Most have stuck me in the role of "stable guy to settle for once you're done actually enjoying sex". When I don't go for that, they tend to get confused/enraged. I'm sure that women don't enjoy being objectified based on sex...well, it's not fun being objectified (if that's the right term) for things outside of sex, either. They basically think of me as a platonic partner who will help pay for stuff in exchange for a few sexual scraps.

 

Okay so you thought a relationship would be constant sex and no talking and doing things? How is that different from wanting a FWB? Or you mean you thought it would be like a FWB but with even more sex like an FWB on turbo? Or are you saying you did want do other things than sex with her, like talking and doing things but to a lot lesser degree than her? Sorry for being confused. May I ask how your fantasy ideal relationship looked like in your head at that age? A lot of sex I get, but was there anything else you wanted in it too?

 

At the time I got my first girlfriend, I had no concept of FWB. I thought a relationship would be 90% sex and 10% other stuff. I've never enjoyed social stuff, so I assumed that there must be a lot of sex at the end of the tunnel, or guys wouldn't go through all that effort to get girls. And we all know what happens when we make assumptions. Little did I know that other guys enjoy being social, or are willing to settle for less, sexually speaking. If I'd ended up with the average, superficial 19-20-year-old, I might have been okay for a while--it seems like most relationships revolve around sex, at that age. But my first girlfriend was unusually mature, and had already gotten most of her wildness out of her system.

[jenny_mcs]

Maybe you'll be better able to get what you want when you are older- like with divorcees who have had it with marriage, or busy single moms who do just want to hook up once in a while.

 

The problem, I think, is that most people don't want to go through life alone. Some people go through phases where all they want is casual sex, but I think for most people it really is a phase. So, yeah, if you want casual sex, you probably will always have to be on the look-out for new partners who want that also.

 

On the bright side, you don't seem particularly torn up about it!

[Wayfara]

Most have stuck me in the role of "stable guy to settle for once you're done actually enjoying sex". When I don't go for that, they tend to get confused/enraged. I'm sure that women don't enjoy being objectified based on sex...well, it's not fun being objectified (if that's the right term) for things outside of sex, either. They basically think of me as a platonic partner who will help pay for stuff in exchange for a few sexual scraps.

 

So these girls didn't want a sexual relationship with you, they just wanted you to pay their bills? Why did they become your FWB then? Or you mean you have other women outside FWB situations asking you to be their money slave? I do understand it must be annoying having gold diggers asking you to pay their bills though, I thought they generally went for older rich men but maybe they think you have money and would be an easy target.

 

At the time I got my first girlfriend, I had no concept of FWB. I thought a relationship would be 90% sex and 10% other stuff. I've never enjoyed social stuff, so I assumed that there must be a lot of sex at the end of the tunnel, or guys wouldn't go through all that effort to get girls. And we all know what happens when we make assumptions. Little did I know that other guys enjoy being social, or are willing to settle for less, sexually speaking.

 

Theoretically speaking, if this girl had had been more of a homebody (not into socializing) with higher sexual drive (so she could keep up with you), would you have been happy in the relationship?

 

my first girlfriend was unusually mature, and had already gotten most of her wildness out of her system.

 

This girl was unusually mature for having a low sex drive?

[radiohead20]

I think that it's hard for most guys, actually. People joke about 20% of men sleeping with 80% of women (or, to put it another way, 80% of women don't want to settle for a guy outside the top 20%, which is why you see so much cheating among the elite/successful, as multiple women compete/cheat for one successful man), but I think that number may be closer than we realize. Most guys I know don't have options and have to basically pay for everything and hope that they can find someone decent to settle for. The "dating math" just never worked in my head, so I never did it. That much time and money wasted, and for what, really?

 

Yeah, now that I think about, being around quite a few female friends in their young 20's, that they went after men that were as objectively as you can put it, out of their league and "above them". And these girls were not bombshells, just average/cute women. They are almost all married now to nice/average guys, but when they were in their early 20's they all went through the pattern of lusting after a guy that is objectively attractive and sometimes sleeping with them, getting hooked and wanting commitment, than getting passed off. The really interesting thing is, and actually a direction manifestation of this 80/20 rule (and I just realized this as I am typing this), is that I knew a few of the guys that the women lusted after. They always had options, and the ones that wanted to sleep around did with, on the order of several new women a month. (I knew a guy who slept with around 4-6 a month, all decently attractive). And it was almost like, they more women knew that these men slept with a lot of women, the more they wanted a piece of him.

 

Anyways, the 80/20 rule does not anger me by itself, the part I sometimes get angered about is the fact that, due to the 80/20 rule, a man that is very fit, intelligent, decent looking might find it extremely difficult attracting a girl that is reasonable for his level (a girl that has similar qualities in the same areas - fit/intelligent/decent looking). A guy that possesses these base attributes should not have to settle for a women who is overweight, but I see this case all the time. Think about it, who has an easier time at dating: An average/above average looking guy that is very fit and has a good job or an average/above average looking girl who is very fit and has a good job. all the girl has to do is get dolled up to the max, wear a nice dress to show off her figure, and the BOOM, she will start getting attention from guys in the top 5%.

[Blue Spiral]

Maybe you'll be better able to get what you want when you are older- like with divorcees who have had it with marriage, or busy single moms who do just want to hook up once in a while.

 

That's been my strategy for years! (Well, that and younger women that aren't in settling-down mode, yet.) However, between the bad economy and women overcoming the ridiculous "thirty is old" mentality, there are fewer and fewer of these women, it seems. I'm coming accross more women that are in their late thirties/early forties who say, "Paying the bills by myself sucks, but I'm still hot, so I can find a second husband/new boyfriend!" Ergo, they don't need me, not that they needed me that much in the first place.

[Blue Spiral]

So these girls didn't want a sexual relationship with you, they just wanted you to pay their bills? Why did they become your FWB then? Or you mean you have other women outside FWB situations asking you to be their money slave? I do understand it must be annoying having gold diggers asking you to pay their bills though, I thought they generally went for older rich men but maybe they think you have money and would be an easy target.

 

My bad, I wasn't clear enough, here. I've primarily dealt with three types of women:

 

1. Actual girlfriends that I loved. (Two, maybe three of them.)

 

2. Actual FWBs.

 

3. Women who view me as a beta-male, bill-paying "relationship prospect" to use as a fallback option once they get rejected by the men they actually wanted. These women don't have access to older/richer men (or aren't hot enough to get them), and, frankly, I live in a poor-ish rural "city", so their options are limited to begin with. I don't have tattoos or a prison record, and I'm basically domesticated (monogamy notwithstanding), so I look pretty good in comparison.

 

Theoretically speaking, if this girl had had been more of a homebody (not into socializing) with higher sexual drive (so she could keep up with you), would you have been happy in the relationship?

 

Absolutely...in fact, my second girlfriend was sort of like that. But I still struggled to be monogamous.

 

This girl was unusually mature for having a low sex drive?

 

She was unusually mature in that she was ready to get married/settle down at 20.

[Blue Spiral]

Nothing succeeds like success--if a woman knows that a man has women after him, they can infer that he must be doing something right. In my experience, women will take a known quantity over a mostly-unknown quantity nine times out of ten, even if the mostly-unknown quantity seems more suited for a stable relationship. (i.e., a confident, successful, attractive guy that's known to cheat, as opposed to a nice guy that hasn't had luck with women, but is generally polite and reliable.)

 

 

 

All very good points. I've had plain, needed-to-lose-weight, highly-annoying girls basically tell me that they aren't marrying a man unless he promises to buy them a certain type of house, or vehicle, or what have you. Or they think they're experts on everything and insanely hot, because men (who wanted to sleep with them) have buttered them up with praise for a decade or two. Likewise, I've known perfectly-average guys that have had to settle for way, way less, because "average" isn't enough. I really think that women want to marry up, and men are expected to marry down. Successful women are starting to outnumber successful men, and I've read about how these types of women have a lot of problems finding someone that meets their expectations.