At what point do you just give up entirely?

[Minilogue]

Emotional Tampon LOL!!!! Spot on I must say. I wish these women well but some of them need a therapist not a boyfriend.

[tiredofvampires]

Just tell the women you feel guilty about rejecting that you don't swing that way. Or, that you're not sure anymore that you're into women. Or that you've realized you're asexual. Solved.

 

I give this another 18 months. Tops.

[Batya33]

Just tell the women you feel guilty about rejecting that you don't swing that way. Or, that you're not sure anymore that you're into women. Or that you've realized you're asexual. Solved.

 

I give this another 18 months. Tops.

 

I agree with this. I think you're making far too much about the woman's reaction to your so-called rejection. It's no big deal. You are right -giving up typically is easier than making an effort (not just in dating). If you only see women as sex objects then I agree it's not worth it to seek out dating or relationships. Then you might have to get up at 6am to switch your 5 year old's pillow to the good dream side and hope that he goes back to sleep for an hour (and that you do, too). I wouldn't trade that kind of inconvenience/sleep deprivation for the world (or wanting nothing more than to crash early but your spouse is having a hard time with a sad memory that he had a hard time with a week ago too and will in another week - and that sleep deprivation is more than worth it too). Etc. etc.

 

It's easy to give up when you paint the situation in the negative, shallow way you do and you're doing many women a favor by walking away quickly (and I think you're projecting most of the embarrassment and awkwardness -perhaps there's a fleeting sense of that in these women but then they're on to their next target- no big deal).

[Blue Spiral]

Emotional Tampon LOL!!!! Spot on I must say. I wish these women well but some of them need a therapist not a boyfriend.

 

I've had a real problem with the concept of reciprocity in my dealings with women. They want me to endlessly listen to their problems, but if I have the audacity to mention one of mine, you can practically see their eyes glaze over with boredom. My first girlfriend would talk about her problems non-stop and expect detailed, in-depth responses, and when it was my turn (well, I assumed I got a turn), she'd say one or two generic things and go right back to talking about herself. It was the same with actions. They wanted me to do things for them, and they always seemed insulted if I asked for something in return (not talking about sex here), even if it was much easier than what they asked for.

 

Just tell the women you feel guilty about rejecting that you don't swing that way. Or, that you're not sure anymore that you're into women. Or that you've realized you're asexual. Solved.

 

I give this another 18 months. Tops.

 

So, you want me to lie and tell them that I'm not quite heterosexual--which, not that long ago, would have been considered demeaning for a man to say--and then you imply that I'm not in control of my all-too-heterosexual urges. You want me to embarrass myself by saying that I'm not "normal" when it comes to women, and you think I'm a stereotypical guy that can't control his sex drive? Wow, that's like a double-play of putdowns, even though they contradict each other.

 

It's easy to give up when you paint the situation in the negative, shallow way you do and you're doing many women a favor by walking away quickly (and I think you're projecting most of the embarrassment and awkwardness -perhaps there's a fleeting sense of that in these women but then they're on to their next target- no big deal).

 

"We're/they're better off without you" and "We're/they're better than you and can do better than you" are among the most common responses that I've encountered. Earlier in this thread, someone basically said that I need to keep my filthy beta DNA out of the gene pool. Because, obviously, if I don't want to play someone else's game, there must be something wrong with me.

 

For the record: I don't know if I'll always be celibate, I'm just doing what I feel like in the moment. I might be open to FWBs, again, if it isn't hard work, and I might be open to something poly, assuming I could find a more vanilla version of it. But for now, I'm happy with my current strategy.

[Batya33]

""We're/they're better off without you" and "We're/they're better than you and can do better than you" are among the most common responses that I've encountered. Earlier in this thread, someone basically said that I need to keep my filthy beta DNA out of the gene pool. Because, obviously, if I don't want to play someone else's game, there must be something wrong with me.

 

For the record: I don't know if I'll always be celibate, I'm just doing what I feel like in the moment. I might be open to FWBs, again, if it isn't hard work, and I might be open to something poly, assuming I could find a more vanilla version of it. But for now, I'm happy with my current strategy."

 

I don't have the opinion in your first paragraph. I just think you're overly concerned about "rejecting" these women's advances -of course some women are going to see you as a challenge, that's life. People approach other people all the time for dating, sex, potential relationship, to flirt, whatever - no need to lie, just once you believe the woman sees you as a potential whatever, simply walk away or tell her succintly and simply that you're not available (not her business why). She'll get over it quickly.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I do think you have very negative opinions about women and relationships but since you're choosing not to subject anyone to them in your interactions you're entitled to your own opinion and feelings of course.

[tiredofvampires]

So, you want me to lie and tell them that I'm not quite heterosexual--which, not that long ago, would have been considered demeaning for a man to say--and then you imply that I'm not in control of my all-too-heterosexual urges. You want me to embarrass myself by saying that I'm not "normal" when it comes to women, and you think I'm a stereotypical guy that can't control his sex drive? Wow, that's like a double-play of putdowns, even though they contradict each other.

 

When I see various acquaintances or strangers in the business of daily life and they say, "How are you doing today?" I always say, with a smile on my face, "Good, thanks. And you?" Most of the time, I'm not "good" these days.

 

Back in the day when I used to go clubbing, or in other situations where I didn't know a guy well or at all, and he was very persistent when I was not showing interest in him, I'd tell him I had a boyfriend. Often that was a last resort, when he wasn't taking the other hints. But it was always the most and only effective repellant.

 

So yes, I've white lied in situations where it wasn't amoral to do so -- it just solved a practical problem. And that's what I was suggesting you do, since you were describing a scenario where you felt extricating yourself was causing other people confusion and whatever you're doing was not effective. And I was saying, if you're bleeding with guilt as you say, then yeah: say something that'll END the pain, suffering, confusion, guilt, and drama, no questions asked. Saying you're gay would practically and efficiently put an end to all the great misery you're describing. Especially when nothing about your "reputation" matters in this situation.

 

Where such guilt is concerned, too, I consider acts of martyrdom like that commensurate retribution and absolution.

 

Of course if you find being gay reputation-destroying, "embarrassing", not "normal", and self-defeating, you and I see homosexuality differently.

 

To hazard a numerical guess about this:

 

For the record: I don't know if I'll always be celibate

 

is merely me placing a bet on your own statement.

 

That has nothing to do with the gay discussion.

 

So there's nothing contradictory, nor insulting, in anything I said. imo

[Blue Spiral]

I don't have the opinion in your first paragraph. I just think you're overly concerned about "rejecting" these women's advances -of course some women are going to see you as a challenge, that's life. People approach other people all the time for dating, sex, potential relationship, to flirt, whatever - no need to lie, just once you believe the woman sees you as a potential whatever, simply walk away or tell her succintly and simply that you're not available (not her business why). She'll get over it quickly.

 

I hope you're right about that. I've found rejection to be extremely painful, which is why I've done my best to limit my exposure to it.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I do think you have very negative opinions about women and relationships but since you're choosing not to subject anyone to them in your interactions you're entitled to your own opinion and feelings of course.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to my opinions and feelings whether I'm vocal about them or not. And, for the record, I'm honest and upfront about the fact that I have no interest in relationships. But I tend to be vague about my reasons, as I'm an extremely private person. Also, people's lives are hard enough, there's no use in taking out my anger on an individual when the problem is systemic in nature. I've sat accross from a lot of women who thought that marriage and/or breeding was going to solve all of their problems. They've already complicated their lives by believing that, I don't want to add to their problems...I tend to just excuse myself and leave them be, as opposed to ranting about gender issues.

 

Incidentally, the two things that are helping me through this:

 

1. Online communities of men that are doing the same thing I am, to varying degrees. (Some are strictly players, some are celibate, some have casual girlfriends but nothing more, etc.)

 

2. Porn.

[Blue Spiral]

Of course if you find being gay reputation-destroying, "embarrassing", not "normal", and self-defeating, you and I see homosexuality differently.

 

I don't. But I'd rather tell a less-dishonest white lie, if that makes any sense. Thus far, my go-to statement has been "I'm focusing on other things, right now."

[IAmFCA]

"I freely admit that, in my head, they're sex objects. But then they open their mouths, and their lives come spilling out, and I feel the sudden urge to break out a grappling-gun and swing to safety." and "But I will say that not having to deal with women has made it easier for me to deal with some other problems in my life, because I can give them more focus."

 

I think these two thoughts are related. And I applaud the closing sentence - staying out of the pond has allowed you to focus on issues more critically important to you.

 

In the meantime, as long as women are objects, then whatever comes tumbling out of their mouths will be burdensome. The best object shuts up and does what is required of it. I have wished that of men; this is not meant to be gender specific. What traits have each of you prioritized when choosing one another? Maybe you each have sorted for self-centered reasons such as sex, money, social status. The burden of having to invest in one another is a necessary evil to get what you want.

 

I would expect of women exactly what you are getting, because of where you are in life and in your perspective.

 

When you are ready to invest in a different outcome, then you will create different results.

[IAmFCA]

In the 80s I used to tell men I was gay (I am a woman). Silly me, I thought that would dissuade them. Now I just say No, thank you and generally am no longer on crowded dance floors and the like where this is not enough of a deterrent. The other day (dance floor) I told someone, I am twice your age! That didn't work either. I just laugh. Its the weekend. Who cares.

[Blue Spiral]

When you are ready to invest in a different outcome, then you will create different results.

 

What other outcome? I'm going to guess that you're talking about me behaving differently and getting a relationship...but I don't actually want a relationship. Not a conventional one, anyway. Also, what results am I currently getting (or not getting, as the case may be)?

[Batya33]

I don't think you're entitled to be vocal about your opinions and feelings in a way that intentionally hurts someone else (I am sure you wouldn't tell a woman who asked you out that you just viewed her as a sex object, for example). I don't think you're rejecting women who simply flirt with you or ask you out - you're simply declining their invitation to flirt/date/hook up. It's not the same as telling a woman that you think she's not attractive or breaking it off with someone you have a relationship with. It's not such a big deal especially since you're careful to tell the person early on you're not available to date or hook up. I never felt badly about that kind of "rejection" - not from a near stranger. That's all I meant -I wouldn't focus on how you're getting all this attention now (again not surprising since some people love to chase men who are unavailable) and I wouldn't focus on how you're "rejecting" these women. Just live your life. I think your response -that you're focusing on other things -is perfectly fine, for what it's worth.

[IAmFCA]

What other outcome? I'm going to guess that you're talking about me behaving differently and getting a relationship...but I don't actually want a relationship. Not a conventional one, anyway. Also, what results am I currently getting (or not getting, as the case may be)?

 

 

Whatever outcome you choose.

 

The point is, what traits you find in others is, in some way, a reflection of the traits within yourself. If no different outcome is desired, then no different thoughts or actions are required.

[Blue Spiral]

Whatever outcome you choose.

 

The point is, what traits you find in others is, in some way, a reflection of the traits within yourself. If no different outcome is desired, then no different thoughts or actions are required.

 

I desire different results, but only to a degree. Unfortunately, I doubt that controlling/changing my own traits will make it any more likely that I can find my ideal situation, as that ideal is fairly unrealistic. My main challenge has been external circumstances, as opposed to internal decisions.

[IAmFCA]

I desire different results, but only to a degree. Unfortunately, I doubt that controlling/changing my own traits will make it any more likely that I can find my ideal situation, as that ideal is fairly unrealistic. My main challenge has been external circumstances, as opposed to internal decisions.

 

OK, so I am hearing: I am not likely to get what I want, because what I want is unrealistic.

 

And

 

The impediments to what I want are beyond my control.

 

If these are two immutable givens, then indeed it is time to accept that you will not get what you want. If you choose that option, I wouldn't call it giving up (as per the old title to this thread); I would call it recognizing your priorities are elsewhere, as you have referenced in some of the posts.

 

Or, adjust what you want to something you think is achievable, and focus on dynamics within your control.

 

It sounded to my ear when you were talking about the quality of women you were finding, that you were disappointed in your experiences. I suggest that what you get is equal to what you invest. It seemed to you that you would listen to their problems but they wouldn't listen to yours, for example, so where is the parity? I wouldn't expect conversational or caring parity from women you hope to use for sex. The rules about sexually-driven relationships include keeping conversation only moderately personal, so nobody gets too involved. If they break this rule, you listen only as much as required to retain the relationship. But don't share; use your friends or ENA for that.

 

Just my two cents for your consideration.

[Mr_LFA]

I'm also an INTJ.

Interesting, myself included. I can certainly relate to the OPs themes here.

[IAmFCA]

Myers Briggs does make an interesting association - I am ENTP. If I had nothing but water and social interaction, I could live for weeks. My advice might be impacted in ways I don't realize, because of my external orientation.

[Throwaway999]

But, recently...when I look at women, I don't see fun, anymore. I see problems. I see drama. I freely admit that, in my head, they're sex objects. But then they open their mouths, and their lives come spilling out, and I feel the sudden urge to break out a grappling-gun and swing to safety. I'm like anyone else--I've got family issues, medical issues, work issues. I can get melodramatic about it, at least in my own head. But I've recently discovered that my life is comparatively happy-go-lucky and drama-free. I'm just not used to dealing with any of this "baggage" stuff that women my age have. I'm basically the same person that I was ten years ago, and I have less than a year's worth of monogamous relationship experience, so my baggage barely qualifies as a carry-on.

 

I find this interesting because, while I actually AM interested in a relationship, a lot of what Blue Spiral says rings true for me, as well.

 

I also find my own life to be "comparatively happy-go-lucky and drama-free." I say this not to brag, but except for being 10 years older, I am actually doing much better now than I was 10 years ago. But, when I meet women my age, they do seem to have much more baggage than I do. They are divorced with a kid, they don't have a career or are barely employed, they smoke or drink too much or do a lot of coke and generally don't take care of themselves, they have a ton of student loan debt or credit card debt or they declared bankruptcy last year. I may meet a woman I find physically attractive, but often after getting to know her a little bit, I, too, get "the sudden urge to break out a grappling-gun and swing to safety"! Haha

 

I feel less stressed, overall. I'm focused on the parts of my life that I actually enjoy. I don't have to deal with as much frustration, anymore. Giving up is easy; having hope, trying, and failing...yeah, that's a killer. I'd rather know I don't have hope, so I can take all that "trying" energy and direct it elsewhere. I'm overly-cautious--I want a guarantee, whether it's good or bad.

 

tl;dr: other people are rarely worth the effort, so find something that is.

 

I feel the same way, and more and more it seems that the women I meet seem "rarely worth the effort".

 

BUT - I do find that on the rare occassions when I've met somebody that I really connect with, the idea of inconveniencing my happy-go-lucky and drama-free life doesn't seem like such a big deal all of a sudden. Like the woman I met last month who lives in another city accross the country *wistful sigh*. I'm seriously considering flying out to visit her, when some of the other women I've met recently, it seemed like a hassle just to arrange a simple meeting for a drink with them. It would be a struggle to send a simple text. It was more like "Well, I guess I should probably text her back now...*heavy (not wistful) sigh*" But when you meet somebody you really like, all of a sudden it's "Oh sure, I'll drop 3-400 bucks on a plane ticket" and I HATE going to the airport.

 

I'm not saying that Blue Spiral will change his tune when he meets his dream woman or anything, just that I don't think his feelings are that far from my own in a lot of ways even though I'm actually looking for a relationship, myself. I'd like to have one, sure, but I can be happier without one, and being in one with most people seems like more trouble than it is worth.

 

Myers Briggs does make an interesting association - I am ENTP. If I had nothing but water and social interaction, I could live for weeks. My advice might be impacted in ways I don't realize, because of my external orientation.

 

I am also an introvert according to Myers-Briggs, and maybe that has something to do with it. Seriously, this last woman I met that I really liked, I met last month, and she lives in another city. But that seems to have been enough to satiate my "relationship" needs for at least the last few weeks! Other women I've met since then I haven't liked as much or they haven't had it together as much, or there is something major about them that is a turn off right away (smoking, drug use, etc.) and instead I've gotten that urge to break out the grappling gun. We've been emailing and texting back and forth a little bit since then, so maybe that has helped.

[Blue Spiral]

Yeah, when I was in my early/mid-twenties, women my own age tended to ignore me. They seemed to have it all together, while I was struggling, and they had tons of guys to choose from. Now, though, it seems to be the opposite. Some of those women are suddenly seeking me out and "checking up" on me, but they're finding out that we don't have the same problems. As you said, they have kids, or student loan debt, or serious credit card debt. Meanwhile, my biggest challenge usually involves figuring out whether I'm going to binge-watch Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones. In terms of sexual market value, men in their early/mid-thirties are better off than men ten years younger, and women in their early/mid-thirties are worse off than women ten years younger. I'm not saying that people in the non-ideal categories can't be happier than when they were at (what society has deemed) their peak...but the proverbial marketplace is much easier to navigate at a certain point in one's life. There are zillions of early-20s guys looking for sex (thus giving women the upper hand), just as there are zillions of early-30s women looking for marriage (thus giving men the upper hand).

 

(One of my favorite FWB candidate stories: this woman who was my age told me that she rejected a guy because he drove an older car, and his house didn't even have a garage. She was unemployed and living with her parents and doing soft drugs most of the time. But she was still decently hot, and our gender doesn't really care about that other stuff, so she was still getting a lot of attention.)

 

Ugh, now I'm thinking about my first girlfriend. If I'd first met her now, I probably wouldn't have been interested in her at all. Her body and personality are almost completely unrecognizable. I suppose I've technically grown in a few areas, but I'm still the same person I've always been...others, meanwhile, are changing radically, and it sort of scares me. I've changed my strategy, but nothing else, dammit!

[tiredofvampires]

If I was the same person I was 10 years ago, and if I were to be the same person 10 years from now, I'd really feel like life had passed me by.

 

Even rocks change in 10 years. If I haven't, something's gone wrong.

 

That's just me.

[Iggles]

If I was the same person I was 10 years ago, and if I were to be the same person 10 years from now, I'd really feel like life had passed me by.

 

Even rocks change in 10 years. If I haven't, something's gone wrong.

 

That's just me.

 

Yeah, I'm definitely not the same person I was ten years ago! I'm not even the same person I was 5 years ago!

 

I like the person I am today and my life is blessed in many ways. But as far as the next ten years goes - my job, where I live, my friends, and martial status are all subject to change. It's going to undoubtably change me as well, but I'm looking forward to more personal growth. It's only ever been a good thing, as one gets wiser and more sure of themselves with age!

[Blue Spiral]

If I was the same person I was 10 years ago, and if I were to be the same person 10 years from now, I'd really feel like life had passed me by.

 

Even rocks change in 10 years. If I haven't, something's gone wrong.

 

That's just me.

 

I've grown in some ways...but, you know, rocks don't get divorced, get into debt, have kids in relationships that don't work out, gain unreasonable amounts of weight, etc. So, don't sell rocks short.

[Liraele]

I've grown in some ways...but, you know, rocks don't get divorced, get into debt, have kids in relationships that don't work out, gain unreasonable amounts of weight, etc. So, don't sell rocks short.

 

Rocks are awesome like that, aren't they?

 

They may not do any of those things, but what useful, innovative things do they do (on their own)? What risks do they take? What growth do they achieve?

 

You can only take the comparison so far.

 

I still think polyamory might be a good fit for you - with conditions. As you open yourself up to that, you'll meet more people who are a part of that community and lifestyle and have new options presented to you.

 

An ENTJ personality type might amuse you for a while, too.

[Batya33]

I've grown in some ways...but, you know, rocks don't get divorced, get into debt, have kids in relationships that don't work out, gain unreasonable amounts of weight, etc. So, don't sell rocks short.

 

And rocks don't get to get married, travel, have a child who tries to make your boo boos better, go for a long run or brisk walk in the sunshine with your favorite music, etc.

[quirky]

i've grown in some ways...but, you know, rocks don't get divorced, get into debt, have kids in relationships that don't work out, gain unreasonable amounts of weight, etc. So, don't sell rocks short.

 

rolling ! ! !