she's lied big, had a second chance, lied big again, pleading for 3rd chance

[anonymous coward]

Hi All,

 

Wow, I haven't been on here in a few years. I remember how incredibly helpful the input from this group was when I was in real girlfriend turmoil a couple years ago. I've never forgotten how deeply appreciative I was for the help and peace you helped me find, I was really suffering.

 

And now I'm back, asking for help again. Different person, different problem. But it's a huge one. Please don't write it off too quickly-- the facts I'm about to share paint an "obvious" picture, perhaps, but I need help knowing if my pain has caused me to lose perspective and that just ending it could be the wrong choice.

 

My problem is that I want to trust this person I've been with for 6 months, and love so much, but she lied so well, so earnestly, and for so long about her dating history during the time we started seeing each other, and about two guy friends of hers (super rich, very handsome men). She's 26, I met her online.

 

In our first and second months of seeing each other 3-4 times a week, I expressed some worry over one of her guy friends because she seemed awfully close to him. During some sleeplessness because of strange worry (I'm not usually like that) she held my hands, looked me in the eyes and said nothing had ever happened with him or either of them, that they were platonic from the start, and my anxiety was for nothing, please trust her, she promises. As you can guess from the post title, that was all a big lie. I learned that not only were they former lovers of hers, but she had been sleeping with one of them weekly for 6 months casually, right up "until our first kiss".

 

Learning that devastated me completely. Not just because of the lies, but because of how genuinely uncomfortable I was (she could see it right on me) and that she still decided to lie about it-- especially after a very serious: "Honesty is the most important thing to me…" talk with her.

 

I tried breaking up with her in Oct. when I learned she had lied about her past with both of those guys, but she she won me back with promises and poems and letters and fervent descriptions of the mistake and her shame, but that she's not like that and please give her another chance.

 

So I did, and it was great until about two weeks ago.

 

Two weeks ago I learned she had slept with one of them a few times after "committing" to me-- the guy she slept with weekly for months and months. She's really adamant about it being all a mistake, that she was going crazy those days, that she didn't expect to fall so hard for me so quickly, that she lied because she knew I was the type of person who probably wouldn't have been OK with being non-exclusive and physical and she didn't want to lose me. She lied to protect me because by then she loved me, had hid so much, and wanted it to all go away and be erased. She said she had a hard time saying "no" to him after being physical with him so regularly, no strings attached, for so long. But in Sept., our third month, she cut off all ties with him entirely.

 

Extreme pain. Defeat. Over Christmas I was wrecked. It was pitiful. I remembered a time I called her and she was at his place watching TV, a ritual they had. Now I know it could have been that day she hooked up with him, and with me the next day, maybe. Yuck. Pain. Hatred.

 

You might be wondering what the good things are. For one, since about Sept. she hasn't seen either of them in person, and hasn't really communicated with either. She cut off all ties with them when she realized she wanted to be with me, she just did it later than she told me. For another, I've never met someone like her. I love her. It's 99% amazing daily.

 

But that 1% is dishonesty, and she really blew it. She lied so easily and well, even after I explained how important honesty was to me. She just lied about everything I said was important that she be honest about-- those two guys, and her "status" when she was starting with me. On our second date she told me the last guy she was with was two months before she met me, but the fact is she was seeing and being physical with 5 different people at the time she started with me. (She's come clean about all this… I heard some things from some friends of hers she didn't know I knew, and also using some false pretexts once I realized something wasn't right, and she confessed fully about two weeks ago.)

 

Can I bounce back from this? She loves me, and is trying incessantly to get me to give her another chance. She's saying everything you could imagine to try to make me feel like it's a safe decision. Everything. She knows we went through this before in Oct, and our terms for trying again were honesty, past present future. So it's like hearing everything on repeat.

 

Am I a fool for even considering this after she's blown her second chance at being honest with me? Any thoughts would be SO APPRECIATED this is consuming me totally because I love her, but see the facts so clearly, and they describe an untrustworthy, dishonest person. All indicators say RUN, my friends all thought I should have ended it after the first round of lies in Oct. surfaced. But, there is love and I can't deny the amazing times we've shared despite all this, and she hasn't been outrightly devious since our second month… everything since then has been just hiding it all.

 

Happy to clarify anything, and THANK YOU DEARLY for any thoughts.

[karvala]

She lied to protect me because by then she loved me, had hid so much, and wanted it to all go away and be erased."

 

Cheater's logic; she still doesn't get it, no matter what she professes. The moment anyone tells you they lied to you about cheating for your benefit is the moment you should run for the hills. What's to stop it happening again? How do you know she isn't still "protecting you" from yet another guy that you don't yet know about? How will you know that in the future? She has the mentality that lying to you is okay. Even when you when told her it wasn't, she still decided on her own that it was.

 

Cheaters always think that they can beat the system, that they can have their cake and eat it, and it's okay because they'll lie to protect their partner so no one really gets hurt, and there's a net gain. Believe it or not, that's really what think. It doesn't occur to them that (a) lying to you is wrong; they justify this by telling themselves that they're "protecting you" and so somehow making the lie an act of charity; and (b) that cheating with someone else inevitably changes the dynamic of your relationship even if it's never discovered.

 

I'm sure her intentions are all well and good right now, but what happens in six months time when you're together, and she's feeling a bit bored or she's just encountered someone new that's she interested in? She'll look back on this and think "well he's taken me back twice after I've cheated, and I'll be better at lying this time, so why should I deny myself this thing which is important to me?". Can you honestly say that she won't say that? Do you want a lifetime of wondering if she's thinking that?

 

Do yourself a favour and find someone that you won't need to spend your life worrying about.

[catfeeder]

If you stay involved with this flake for any reason, you'll confirm for her that lying is not only easy, it works even after you get caught--as long as someone has it for you badly enough.

 

Head high, and walk ON.

[PaintWithLight]

I understand that you want to give her a chance and that things are good between you two, as you say 99%. But there are two areas of concern for me that you seemed to gloss over.

 

1) Is she really just a one-man woman? She seems to have a history of multiple guys right up until you got involved with her. Even then, she had a hard time breaking it off with him even though she was smitten with you. In the real world, you will have out of town business meetings, late nights and other breaks in contact with each other. Are you sure you want to be worrying if in her mind, this gives her the freedom to stray. Not all of her logical arguments seem to hang together. I would hate for her to be explaining to you that her cheating with her boss has actually HELPED her to realize that you are the best man for her.

 

2) As noted above, weakness is like blood in the water to a cheater. You have caught her twice in bold faced lies and taken her back once, now considering it again. Is there a chance that she will secretly despise you for "forgiving her" even though she is begging for a 3rd chance. In most relationships, lying and cheating have built in strong deterrents because of the destruction and consequences that each carries. Many guys I know have walked away from an opportunity to cheat because "it just not worth the risk". If she escapes scot free both times, are you setting yourself up in a position of weakness in her mind.

 

I wish you luck with your decision. It is hard to separate a person's past actions with the person they could become in the future. We all deserve grace and a chance at redemption, however an unscrupulous person can take advantage of this situation instead of seizing the chance to change.

[misssmithviii]

Previous posters are right...

 

I fear one day to find that my bf of 2 years has lied to me about this one girl in particular (Evelyn; girl I grew up with and couldn't associate with after she hit puberty and began treating men like dirt) that he hung out with and went on little dates with, and took her along during a vacation to Lake Tahoe, NV (where his parents have a house) for 2 days. He was always very open whenever I asked him about what happened, but from the get go I was always paranoid that it was BS seeing as how he said they slept in the same bed and she got in the shower with him but they NEVER touched, kissed or anything at all basically. His explanation was her psoriasis (it was all over her body and was a severe case) and chubbiness turned him off completely; hence him explaining that he slept on the other side of the one bed available and that he left the shower the moment she came in.

 

I know that if it ever comes up that he lied to me, so convincingly, so easily... like this woman has done to you - I wouldn't be able to live with it and I'd have to leave. I even tried tricking him once by saying, "Babe, cmon... really? Just tell me, I won't get mad." Truth be told I wouldn't get mad, I'd get so depressed I'd turn quiet and just leave "/

 

But that's me.

[anonymous coward]

This is wise and straightforward and gives me confidence, I think you very much. I will think about this hard.

[anonymous coward]

Thank you for this, I can't do much but nod. It's terrible to think she hasn't learned anything from the first round of lies. It's just hard because I want to believe her so badly that things are different now.

[anonymous coward]

These two points are well received, thank you. I think she did get used to being with more than one man at a time, and that's what probably led to things being possible with another while she was with me. She says she was desensitized to it all. Arg. Pain. I actually feel bad for her.

[anonymous coward]

Oh strange, when I hit "reply" under responses, it put them here at the bottom. Sorry about that.

 

One question: how much does it matter that these lies and the cheating was when we were still in just our second month? She's lied since, but really about those first 2-3 months, not new things.

[misssmithviii]

The point is simply that she can continuing lying, isn't that enough?

It's demeaning, disrespectful and not the actions of someone who is in love. If she lied and confessed within the beginning that's one thing, that's moderately forgivable (not by my standards but it's not as bad) because it shows instant remorse and the will to build a relationship on solid, honest ground.

But dragging it on this long only shows she's been looking after her own butt, regardless of you - the ability to manipulate the truth like that, to look you in the eyes, to put on such a show... that's just plain disgusting.

 

She'll be getting away with it if you don't put your foot down and leave her. The hardest thing, I know, is knowing that leaving her is EXACTLY what it'll take for her to learn her lesson. But that also means the moment you go back, it's all for naught and it's like she still got away with it in the end.

It's unfortunate you were the one she had to hurt in order to learn this, but it's better for both of you IMO.

[anonymous coward]

The point is simply that she can continuing lying, isn't that enough?

She'll be getting away with it if you don't put your foot down and leave her. The hardest thing, I know, is knowing that leaving her is EXACTLY what it'll take for her to learn her lesson. But that also means the moment you go back, it's all for naught and it's like she still got away with it in the end.

It's unfortunate you were the one she had to hurt in order to learn this, but it's better for both of you IMO.

 

This sounds right on. I think she will only be able to learn this if I don't give in.

 

I think I just have some weakness of my own to work on. For anyone interested, here's the last conversation we had via text this morning, possibly our last conversation ever. I texted her after reading your comments very late last night and having the courage to tell her I couldn't do it any more. She wrote back this morning and we had the following conversation:

 

[her] "You know i won't betray you again. please this one more chance."

[me] "no and please stop."

[her] "if i screw it up this time, which i won't, i will give up defeated. i will sign my name in blood on this. Just one more chance. I know our feelings are real and here and beyond the future is clear."

"please don't deny us this. Don't make the world this cruel."

[me] "No. you violated my trust and I forgave once. You betrayed me again and now it's gone, never to return. Without trust there's nothing that's healthy about being together for either of us."

"I don't hate you, I just can't be with you. I will never be able to trust you at the level I need for a relationship. That's all there is."

[her] "I just know i could bring it back. You don't need to hate me. I already hate me because I'm losing this. The most beautiful part of my life now."

[me] "Trust doesn't work like that. It sucks to be the one to help you learn this, but it's out of my control. [her name] it's over completely. After what's been done over 6 months, I could never trust you 100% again."

[her] "I know you know the heart and mind are stronger than that. I wouldn't expect anything immediate. You know I would stay with you exclusively. You know I would try anything. But I also understand your decision."

"But i fear you're afraid of what we have between us and not that I will hurt you again. It's ok, we don't have to text anymore right now."

[me] "You've lied too much, about too much for too long. There's nothing left to say."

"Whether your whole value system and personal character changes now or not doesn't matter for us because I'll never know or have a way to know. Move home, in a few months or a year maybe try again with someone else with the right start.

[her] "I am starting my new job near you as part of a new future for us, but you you won't give me a chance. I have to stick to my commitment there and won't go home.

"while i think it might be the easy road to just send me away. I'm sticking here. Learning. And if you change your mind you know I'll be right here. Better for you. Good for you."

 

end.

 

Man, people. My heart is like, shattered from this. We were so close, so in love. We travelled together, we camped and adventured, we were cohabiting (the first time in my life, i'm 30) for 3 months. It's just hard because I think any normal person would just swear at her and slam the door, but I want to be above that, and that's why things have been in limbo for the last 2-3 weeks. I want to make sure I'm acting and not just reacting, and I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing for both of us, not just for me. No matter what she's done, I do love her. Arg.

 

Hardest lesson in all this is that I'm not a good judge of character after all, so I'll have to watch my back when I'm ready to start dating again. Damn.

[savignon]

If you still love her and want what's best for her equally to your own needs and think the relationship is 99% good, then I imagine you'll make the mistake of getting back together with her and believe all of this again. What you know is that she's capable of misleading you face to face, eye to eye, hand to hand ....etc. She also cheated on you and you brush it off with "but that was in the first two months". Also thinking 99% = lying, cheating and lying again is an interesting way of doing math.

Being "above" yelling at her and slamming the door is misleading b/c it makes you think you're better than that, more forgiving than that and so on. It's actually healthy to be angry when someone betrays you, lies to you and cheats on you. A person with healthy esteem and self-respect would do well to close the door on that. So, you're not "above" that....you're making excuses not to do that.

[anonymous coward]

A person with healthy esteem and self-respect would do well to close the door on that. So, you're not "above" that....you're making excuses not to do that.

 

Yes, you are right. What a strange, delusional time it's been. I think it's just been hard to accept this reality, but, your opinions are helping me see things clearly. I have moments of clarity, and they fog up with her texts and tears. Need to just bite down on this and cut it. Thanks incredibly much for the help.

 

I will post any further developments-- she has stuff here so I imagine I'll at least be seeing her once again.

[DN]

I am not trying to convince you either way because the choice is entirely yours. But have you thought of saying something along the lines of "contact me in six months and if you have managed not to see anyone in that time we can consider what to do then"?

[anonymous coward]

I am not trying to convince you either way because the choice is entirely yours. But have you thought of saying something along the lines of "contact me in six months and if you have managed not to see anyone in that time we can consider what to do then"?

 

Yes, something like that did cross my mind. I think I talked myself out of giving the offer because I'd have no way of knowing over those six months if she was able to spend that time alone or not, so six months later she might just say whatever she wants me to hear then.

 

Do you know if something like that has helped people have a fresh start after betrayal?

[anonymous coward]

Yes, something like that did cross my mind. I think I talked myself out of giving the offer because I'd have no way of knowing over those six months if she was able to spend that time alone or not, so six months later she might just say whatever she wants me to hear then.

 

Do you know if something like that has helped people have a fresh start after betrayal?

 

I mean, in a way that seems very just-- it would be exactly one day apart for every day she lied to me. Hmm.

[DN]

Verification would be a problem I suppose.

 

I do think it is highly risky giving someone who has cheated twice another chance. But relationships have survived infidelity. One thing you would need to know is why she cheated.

 

This is just a suggestion - but you could say that you will attend counseling session with her for, say, six months, in order to discover why she cheated and what can be done to give you some assurance that she won't cheat again. In that time period it must be clear that you are not back together in a relationship, that you don't see other people and the only purpose is to see if there might be a way of getting back together in due course if you feel you can regain some sort of trust and still love her enough to try.

 

This is highly risky - but it might be worth a shot if you think her messages are genuine and she is sincere. I would not blame you in the least if you didn't go that route - but it is an alternative to a complete break or complete and immediate reconciliation.

[wildchild1]

[her] "if i screw it up this time, which i won't, i will give up defeated. i will sign my name in blood on this. Just one more chance. I know our feelings are real and here and beyond the future is clear."

"please don't deny us this. Don't make the world this cruel."

[her] "But i fear you're afraid of what we have between us and not that I will hurt you again.

 

This may just be the way that I am interpreting this, however her texts seem...disingenuous. Also she seems to be putting the blame on you.

[SpottiOtti]

I second what Wildchild said. She seems quite manipulative in her texts to me.

[misssmithviii]

The thing about cheaters is they justify and they guilt trip. It's disgusting to me frankly, that she can really sit there and say: "Please don't deny us this. Don't make the world this cruel."

 

What?! Don't make the world this cruel? And her behavior isn't? You leaving her for your sake and hers is cruelty?

Some nerve she's got to say that to you. She's throwing the blame on you, she's putting the end of the relationship on you so that you feel guilty, so you feel sorry for her.

 

The pity card that some cheaters play is such a selfish one.

 

My boyfriend said this as if he were her: " 'You're the one who must be afraid of commitment and what we have between us, because you're leaving me for cheating on you.' How old is this chick?"

That's some messed up logic.

[anonymous coward]

Verification would be a problem I suppose.

One thing you would need to know is why she cheated.

 

The counseling idea is not one I've thought of-- perhaps if she set everything up because she wanted it badly enough I would go, for her sake, in learning more about the cheating and risky lifestyle choices over the spring and summer 2010.

 

This is what I know. She was sleeping with this one guy casually, weekly, for about half a year. Super handsome rich guy in his 30s. She was dating other people on and off over that time, but was seeing him regularly, no strings attached, no illusion of any relationship coming out of it. She didn't want one, he didn't want one.

 

She broke up with a 3-4 year bf last January, took it hard, and started dating like crazy. When she met me, I was at first just another member of a group she was dating, part of a 2010 exploration into the NYC dating/non-committal lifestyle.

 

By our 3rd or 4th date (July) she realized I was finally someone she wanted an actual relationship with. She wanted to keep her friend with benefits as just a friend and thought she could do that by explaining to him that she was starting an exclusive relationship. They tried that, but about 4 weeks later when they were together he put the moves on and they ended up sleeping together. She's said it happened more than once, but only up to some time in our second month together. She then realized it would be impossible to keep him around as just a friend (she really liked his company and friendship), and cut it off completely with him (no calls, emails, anything) in our third month together.

 

She said while she was with me she didn't want to be physical with him, but it was such a habit-- weekly for 6 months-- and was desensitized to it. Around the time she met me she was also casual with about 5 other people, so she's explained that she had become desensitized to sex altogether. It stopped having any meaning for her. After she started falling for me, those desensitized sexual feelings remained for the first couple of months, while she lied about her lifestyle and recent history with men, and the nature of the relationship with a couple guy friends, because she wanted to stop and erase all that. She says after being with me she remembered what real love was like and didn't want to spoil it by explaining she had been living this free-love lifestyle for a few months. She wanted to phase it all out smoothly and just continue on solidly with me.

 

She had been sleeping with me after our third week together, and it was good-- we commented alot on how physically compatible we were (not to get too detailed, but sex with me wasn't an issue, she has very obvious climaxes and we're both very physically affectionate in a relationship). She's explained that once it was obvious what he wanted, she just "couldn't seem to say no" and realized immediately afterward she had to excommunicate him completely, and did.

[anonymous coward]

This may just be the way that I am interpreting this, however her texts seem...disingenuous. Also she seems to be putting the blame on you.

 

Yeah, I think I noticed that too, but have always given her the benefit of the doubt. She does think I'm making a mistake by not giving her another chance because now it's all behind, everything is exposed, and she has nothing else to lie about.

[anonymous coward]

I second what Wildchild said. She seems quite manipulative in her texts to me.

 

yeah, manipulative might be the perfect word here.

[anonymous coward]

The thing about cheaters is they justify and they guilt trip. It's disgusting to me frankly, that she can really sit there and say: "Please don't deny us this. Don't make the world this cruel."

How old is this chick?"

That's some messed up logic.

 

She's 26. Her history is a little odd I guess-- what shes told me (which I guess doesn't have as much weight as I'd like, but, whatever) is that she started a relationship with someone in college, her first real boyfriend, and they stayed together for 3-4 years. She was with him for two straight, then they broke up for a while. She did say at some point early in our relationship that he had cheated on her. She started something with someone else pretty quickly after they had broken up and was with that guy for 8 months or so. He was super jealous and felt threatened by all her guy friends and even hacked her email account. She eventually left him to get back together with her ex, who by then had sold his internet startup for some millions of dollars. She stayed with him for another 1-2 years and they were about to move together when he bailed at the last minute, said he couldn't, and they broke up. They've stayed very close friends since, though he's in Philly, she's here in NYC. I strangely don't feel threatened by him, but I did tell her i thought his frequent texts were a bit odd-- (doesn't he have other friends?)

 

Anyway, as soon as they broke up for the second time, her friend turned into a friend with benefits and that lasted from that January up to our second month together. During that time she also dated 6-7 people and by the time she met me was sleeping with about 5 different people casually, while looking for an actual relationship. She didn't expect to fall for me so fast, and despite lying to me outrightly about her status, after the first couple of months was exclusive with me.

 

She had her sister call me, and her best friend (a gay guy, super nice guy) in Oct. after the first round of lies came out, to basically say how in love with me she is and that they think i should just focus on present and moving forward, not those first couple of months. In December after I learned about the cheating, her sister wouldn't talk to me, and her best friend did call and said he didn't understand how it could have happened and wasn't sure what to say or what I should do. He didn't vouch for her, if anything suggested caution.

[SpottiOtti]

I understand where she was coming from, not wanting you to think less of her for her past in the beginning and also wanting to move on. It's her hooking up with that other guy that concerns me. Had you two already agreed that you were in a committed relationship when she hooked up with the old FWB (multiple times)? Was she honest about seeing multiple people then, or were you under the impression that you were the only one?

 

I don't think she means to hurt you. I think she is a bit selfish and doesn't truly comprehend the impact of her words and actions. Whatever her explanation for lying, however, the end result is the same. You don't trust her, and are analyzing and obsessing over her actions and her motives in a way that is unhealthy for you. I broke up with my fiance because he lied to me about something that I couldn't forgive him for, even though I understood why he lied - so I know the spot you are in. Sometimes love isn't enough. It doesn't sound to me as if you can trust her again right now. Maybe in the future, but your feelings of hurt and anxiety are too prominent right now to think about trying to repair this relationship. Why don't you give yourself a few weeks without contacting her and then see where you're at mentally?