Passive aggressiveness

[Applewhite]

That is lousy that he stuck that "back door excuse" in there, but when you get good at this approach you will be able to counter that cheap shot with a fluent "Again, I want you to discuss issues like this with me directly and without teasing, and if you tease me about them then I will believe you are not doing your best."

 

And each time he responds in a way that includes a back door, you repeat the above, word for word, until he concurs. (This is the "broken record" technique... the good thing about assertive statements is that they don't hurt anyone's feelings, so you can say them over and over again without being mean.)

 

What do you mean about the back door excuse?

 

Yes I had a good start there, but when he kept ignoring and complaining that it was just a joke I don't mind the bottles at all, and then changing to say no it wasn't a joke I really do mind it... I lost my balance and it escalated from there. Ended with him raising his voice telling me I play mind games and he won't play. I trapped him in a corner. And I learn this from the enotalone crap.

[mfan]

What do you mean about the back door excuse?

 

Yes I had a good start there, but when he kept ignoring and complaining that it was just a joke I don't mind the bottles at all, and then changing to say no it wasn't a joke I really do mind it... I lost my balance and it escalated from there. Ended with him raising his voice telling me I play mind games and he won't play. I trapped him in a corner. And I learn this from the enotalone crap.

 

By back door excuse I meant he's trying to "leave himself an out" by saying "yes, (but...)"

 

As an assertive speaker (from now on), you won't let this technique rattle you, because you are ready with a matter-of-fact response to it. But I do think you started out great, hike. It's not instant, getting used to using these techniques and being ready for other people's nonsense that they give you in return sometimes... please don't be discouraged.

[DN]

I think it is important to focus on the big picture as well as the details

 

• do you love him?
  
• do you love him enough to want to sort this out?
  
• do you love him enough to accept at least some of his faults?
  
• is this a dealbreaker?
  
• if you leave him will you be better or worse off?
  

all these things have to do with the big picture and what is in your best interests.

[Applewhite]

By back door excuse I meant he's trying to "leave himself an out" by saying "yes, (but...)"

 

As an assertive speaker (from now on), you won't let this technique rattle you, because you are ready with a matter-of-fact response to it. But I do think you started out great, hike. It's not instant, getting used to using these techniques and being ready for other people's nonsense that they give you in return sometimes... please don't be discouraged.

 

So whenever I get a backdoor excuse I should just repeat myself even if it the exact same sentence?

 

what if I get something like I will try my best, but I can't believe you would be offended by this - it was just a joke... then it turns out it wasn't just a joke. Should I just accept the 'I will try my best but this is silly' response? Or should I repeat until I get a 'I will not do this again' response?

[mfan]

So whenever I get a backdoor excuse I should just repeat myself even if it the exact same sentence?

I think eventually you will be able to do that, and it might be the best approach. But it will take practice before you can do it effectively. It may be best to practice techniques like this with incompetent customer service representatives, pushy salespeople, etc. before you try it on someone you care about. Again, this takes time to get better at. It's not a skill one just picks up one day. Especially when you have emotional stake in the result. I would imagine it takes weeks to become good at this, maybe even more in highely emotional situations.

 

Yes, I think it's reasonable to repeat the request word for word if you get a response that has an excuse in it. But if you're insecure when doing it because you haven't gotten used to doing it, it can remove your advantage.

 

what if I get something like I will try my best, but I can't believe you would be offended by this - it was just a joke... then it turns out it wasn't just a joke. Should I just accept the 'I will try my best but this is silly' response? Or should I repeat until I get a 'I will not do this again' response?

I'm reluctant to give direct advice about this because it's your personal situation, but theoretically, I believe one assertive response would be, "I'm being honest with you: I was offended by your joking about this subject. I appreciate that this surprises you, but it did offend me. Please don't do it anymore."

 

Then you can end the conversation by walking away; you don't have to wait for his response if you don't care to hear anything from his side.

[Ms Darcy]

when he has a problem he wants to resolve it by teasing me and he doesn't want to think about whether he hurts my feelings this way or not. And I am 'broken' so I took it the wrong way. And to protect my broken self this is how I should handle his teasing from now on, should I be offended.

 

Hike, I am not sure with what type of mindset you went into this conversation: was it about finding a resolution to move forward, or to have him admit to his 'wrongdoing' as well as with the expectation that he would mess up?

 

I don't think that either one of you has communication skills that are conducive to problem solving, thus couples therapy (as many have suggested) to improve those skills is highly recommendable.

 

Either way you decide (to stay with him or not), you will need to learn to separate past hurt from the situation at hand.

 

First, I'm getting a strong sense of your issues with your father bleeding over into this relationship. ... It took me years to recognize that I was putting responsibility on my partners to make up for what my father did when I was a child, and that it is not fair to them. From your posts, it sounds like your strong reaction to the things your BF said is coming from feelings that have a lot to do with your childhood. The reason for this is that that situation triggered a memory of a similar situation from your childhood, which in turn triggered an emotional gut response.

 

Second, I think that your BF is indeed passive-aggressive. At first I thought maybe he was just joking, but after reading your post about the convo you two had about this, it seems that he is not good at all at communicating his issues and feelings to you. I know that is very frustrating (again from personal experience).

 

Third, I think that your whole response was also passive-aggressive. You got really, really angry about this, and instead of telling him, you pulled away from the relationship and said things here like "If he's going to make a big deal about water bottles then I'm not going to cook him dinner." You obviously (understandably) had an issue with the dog crap, but said nothing, only allowing the resentment you felt to emerge when he gave you a target (the water bottles). The way that you could have handled this more maturely is to just speak up as soon as you felt bothered, not let it simmer for a couple days. Simmering on it made you angrier than was warranted, and led to you feeling that you needed to give ultimatums and end the relationship. It sounds like the other things you mentioned that were bothering you (which you did not mention to him) are also contributing to that "ultimatum" state of mind.

 

I agree with Penelope and Spotti. It doesn't matter how calm and assertive one goes into a conversation, if the end is to get them to admit they are wrong and hurting your feelings then it's an unhealthy one. And both of you are very passive-aggressive. It feeds off each other.

 

I think it's clear that you are better than him with words in a conversation. So, I can see how he feels trapped when you question him and then say that he's contradicting himself. It's interesting how you group him resolving conflict with hurting your feelings. How safe is the space for him to tell you to pick up things? Would you shoot back about dog poop?

 

Throughout this whole thread, this guy has been completely in the wrong in your telling. In that case, maybe it's better just to end it all and seek individual therapy.

[Applewhite]

Thanks for checking up, DN.

 

Last night he came home, and we didn't really talk about the problem. Of course we were also more distant than usual. And since the talk he only says have a nice day when he goes to work (usually he will kiss be goodbye).

 

He seemed tired and since he ended the first conversation, I didn't start a new one.

 

I had an email to send to him, on the bottom I wrote:

I wish you hadn't ended the conversation abruptly and by making accusations.

 

He wrote back:

I'm not too happy about being accused either. We can talk later if you want.

 

I am not sure what I accused him of because mainly I was telling him how I feel as a result of his actions, and asking him to not do it again.

[Applewhite]

I am hurt by being embarrassed and teased (even when I took care of the problem) by him. He is hurt by me telling him I'm hurt? Really?

 

As soon as I started: 'I am hurt and embarrassed by what you said in front of your extended family', he got all defensive and started saying 'What?!' in an aggressive way.

[DN]

I answered in a pm - but basically I think the best way is to start a fresh dialogue in a different and more conciliatory way.

[Applewhite]

I am not sure what he means by me accusing him. But I guess pointing out that I feel he is acting passive aggressively and teasing instead of talking to me about things like an adult. But I don't see how this is me accusing when he said: Well if you would just pick them up, then I wouldn't have something to tease about now would I?

[DN]

Better to let go of how you have each been responding to each other since you brought it up and negotiate the basic problem itself.

[Scott12]

I am not sure what he means by me accusing him. But I guess pointing out that I feel he is acting passive aggressively and teasing instead of talking to me about things like an adult. But I don't see how this is me accusing when he said: Well if you would just pick them up, then I wouldn't have something to tease about now would I?

 

Hike14,

 

My guess is that he feels that way because you started the conversation with a pre-conceived notion that he meant to hurt and embarrass you by bringing up the water bottles with his family and that you rejected his defense because you were already convinced that he was trying to hurt you.

 

Let me ask you something: how long did your discussion last? How far into it did he "admit" that he really had a problem with the water bottles?

 

Scott

[mfan]

I am not sure what he means by me accusing him.

I think he's never been confronted by you in this assertive, no-nonsense way before, and is trying to test you to see if you're serious about it. Internally he probably knows you're not accusing him, he's partially shocked by the whole thing and partially testing to see how much he can get away with. He probably has a few more excuses ready to pull out if he needs them. Just remind him that a statement of how you feel is not an accusation and he'll move on to the next defense mechanism. After he's used up his bag of tricks, he'll comply in the future if you approach him assertively, non-aggressively, and objectively about any issue you have.

[Applewhite]

Hike14,

 

My guess is that he feels that way because you started the conversation with a pre-conceived notion that he meant to hurt and embarrass you by bringing up the water bottles with his family and that you rejected his defense because you were already convinced that he was trying to hurt you.

 

Let me ask you something: how long did your discussion last? How far into it did he "admit" that he really had a problem with the water bottles?

 

Scott

 

He admitted only after I asked many times. But he didn't admit just to shut me up. He really truly minds them, just never knew how to communicate this. I had to drag it out of him. And his way of communicating it was my teasing and ridiculing in front of others.

[Applewhite]

I am hurt and angered by you bringing up our private issues in front of your family.

I feel belittled and angered by you constantly teasing me about a problem you have with me rather than just talking to me about it.

 

Sound about right? Maybe I should just stick to these sentences and refrain from saying anything else. Is that a good idea?

[DN]

How about:

 

"I am very sensitive about being teased about stuff like that in front of your family. Remember you have known them for years but I am still trying to fit in and it was embarrassing even if you didn't mean it to be unkind. And if you would just tell me about any problems you have with me instead of teasing I will be glad to talk them through. But because of my past history with my father it brings up really bad memories if I am teased. I hope you can understand and work with me on this because it is really important to me."

[mfan]

you constantly

Do not include this phrase. Stick to uncontrovertible facts: "I feel ____ when you ____."

[Scott12]

He admitted only after I asked many times. But he didn't admit just to shut me up. He really truly minds them, just never knew how to communicate this. I had to drag it out of him. And his way of communicating it was my teasing and ridiculing in front of others.

 

Hike14,

 

I just went back and read your other thread; now, I can't tell you if your boyfriend is passive-aggressive or not. What I can tell you is that you have a disturbing tendency to ascribe motive to your boyfriend's words and actions that directly contradict what he himself is saying and/or doing. In the previous thread, you made a statement along the lines of (paraphrasing) "he said he is sorry, but I know that he really isn't". In this thread, you have said multiple times that all of a sudden you feel that if he does something or offers to do something for you, he is being insincere and doesn't really want to do that for you.

 

I was married to a woman who was physically and emotionally abused by both her mother and father. One thing that she would consistently do when we had a discussion was to assert that what I saw as harmless and innocuous statements or actions on my part actually had sinister and disturbing motives. So, for example, one argument we had was about me not being hungry for dinner one night. Her feelings were hurt because I didn't eat her cooking and she felt that I didn't eat her cooking because I didn't like her cooking, and on top of that, that I had never liked her cooking and when I would have seconds of food she made that I was just doing it to be "nice". I tried to explain to her that I wasn't hungry because my company had catered a lunch and that I was still full from that, but that I'm sure I would be hungry later.

 

She wouldn't accept my explanation. She was convinced that I had never liked her cooking. So she stopped cooking altogether during the last year or so of our marriage. She explained that it was pointless for her to cook, because either I 1) wouldn't eat it anyway, or 2) I would "pretend" to enjoy it just to make her happy. She put me in a no-win situation because she had convinced herself that I didn't like her cooking, and no evidence to the contrary was going to convince her otherwise.

 

Your boyfriend felt accused because you put him in a no-win situation. You are convinced that the water bottle thing really, truly bothers him and no evidence to the contrary will convince you otherwise. You are also convinced that he meant to embarrass you in front of his family. Can you see why he might eventually capitulate to your demands for him to tell you that it really does bother him and why he might be distant from you?

 

Scott

[mfan]

How about:

 

"I am very sensitive about being teased about stuff like that in front of your family. Remember you have known them for years but I am still trying to fit in and it was embarrassing even if you didn't mean it to be unkind. And if you would just tell me about any problems you have with me instead of teasing I will be glad to talk them through. But because of my past history with my father it brings up really bad memories if I am teased. I hope you can understand and work with me on this because it is really important to me."

 

I am not sure the bolded part is effective; it implies that the OP would be fine being teased if it weren't for her unfortunate past -- it may be best not to give reasons why you don't like to be teased; just simply stating it is enough.

[DN]

Well, the truth is that her father has badly affected her and her boyfriend should be aware of that because there are other issues that will come up associated with that trauma in the future. That needs to be a part of this discussion at some point.

 

Most couples I know tease each other in some way and he needs to know why he should not.

[Applewhite]

I can see the points you are making and will try to trust what he says, however 2 points.

 

1) He has changed his mind about minding about the water bottles. He admitted that he truly DOES mind them. So on that particular occasion I WAS right.

 

2) He left me in a no win situation too. Whenever there was a bottle or bottles he would complain or tease about the bottles (and it was hard to understand if he minded them, for a while I didn't think he didn't but now it became apparent he did mind.) And when there are no bottles, he will make some sarcastic comment about how there were no bottles. I had some comment about bottles everyday and when he finally did it in public I got very very hurt over it. So although I see some similarities between your wife's actions and mine, there are also differences I think.

[Scott12]

I can see the points you are making and will try to trust what he says, however 2 points.

 

1) He has changed his mind about minding about the water bottles. He admitted that he truly DOES mind them. So on that particular occasion I WAS right.

 

Hike14,

 

For the moment, forget about what your boyfriend thinks or doesn't think about the water bottles. At this point it doesn't matter. What DOES matter is that, at the time you confronted him about the episode with his family, you had already convinced yourself that he WAS bothered by the bottles. And so, he was already in a no-win situation because if he denied that the bottles bothered him, you would be convinced that he was lying to you, or, he would "admit" that they bothered him, in which case you would be vindicated.

 

And you yourself said that you "had" to ask him multiple times about whether the bottles bothered him, presumably because every time you asked him, he said they didn't bother him. Do you think that it could be possible that he got fed up and frustrated with not being believed and just capitulated to your version of events because it would be easier?

 

Scott

[Applewhite]

Ok some variation of DN's. Change is at the end.

 

I am very sensitive about being teased about stuff like that in front of your family. Remember you have known them for years but I am still trying to fit in and it was embarrassing even if you didn't mean it to be unkind. And if you would just tell me about any problems you have with me instead of teasing I will be glad to talk them through. Please do not tease me again whether alone or in public. I do not mean to discourage you from joking around with me, and I will try to not get offended but please know that if it is indeed just a joke it will not be taken seriously because I will assume for any future serious issues you will not chose this method of communication.

 

Note: Also I suspect he will want 'stuff like that' to be defined.

[Applewhite]

No Scott, he is indeed bothered by the bottles. He told me in fact that if I don't want to be teased, I should just pick up after myself and of course he prefers no bottles. I do trust him on this. And honestly as much as he said it was a joke, I could tell he was serious when he brought it up in front of other people.

 

I could be oversensitive yes, but I am NOT crazy. And he is not manipulable enough for me to put words into his mouth and make him admit something he doesn't feel.

[DN]

The end is fine in intent but seems very formal. Can you get the same intention with words that are more 'warm'.