rich_1517 - her confidence is too high, im for granted

[rich_1517]

would you call this rash?

 

i have contacted the girl i was seeing when i was dating the ex. i saw them both for four months before i chose.

 

the funny thing is i asked them both the same quesiton becuase i sought independent women but wanted to know "will you ever let yourself need me?" sometimes divorcees and indpendant people have a real problem with trust. understanably but i wanted someone who would see through that.

 

well the ex said yes, the other girl said i dont know if i could. it turns out that maybe she was the more honest of the two,

 

i know the first girl was in love with me when i let her go. i am going to just do coffee with her but who knows. she is in the same space i am "not looking" which is just about right.

 

if the ex doesnt do something soon she will lose me. i am preparing myself to not look back.

[GeeCee]

No Rich

 

This is not rash - this is good. All part of the NC strategy. Covering all bases and creating a new life for yourself. This is very good.

 

Hope you are feeling better within yourself.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

well yes and no.

 

but i am coming to a balance of sorts. next week will be a hard week for her. the ex husband is taking the kid on a vacation, she had made plans that will now not work out.

 

i am going to keep her at arms length right up until the weekend (thats if she calls).

 

my way of dealing with her will be simple. cant do coffee when she is in the city, deadlines.

 

when we hit the weekend i have to not be available for dates. this will be hard. but must be done. i mean do i have this right? that she needs to see a withdrawl in me even if she wants a date? thats what i think but dont know. if so then its well i made plans, how about later in the week?

 

this opens a door for others perhaps, or not but if she isnt smart enough to know what i am doing at this point and gets pissy about it, well too bad. i have this right yes? that even if she wants a date she gets the short stick for the first time?

 

the danger is she will retailliate and move away on me. but i guess thats where we are. grrrr.

[Beec]

Rich,

 

You really seem to want her to come after you and give some indication that she is interested, why are you going to run away if she does. Withdraw does not mean mvoe away and keep moving. It means move away so the other person relaizes you are not tehre attached at the hip, that they have to come after you a bit. As you withdraw, over time you withdrawals can become farther, but don't drastically increase distance or time for which you withdraw. Each time, a little further, a little farther, make her just a little frustrated that you are not there, unless you know you've got her.

 

She has gone from you will only be a friend and I am givign you mercy dates, to spending all of her free weekend time with you. Subconsciously, maybe she looks on you as someone who might be the man. Consciously, her prior thoughts and your smoking have her confused. You can move her through this, but you may need some indication that she is moving toward you, be careful about how much you ask for. If you drop off the face of the earth to her, she may get too frustrated.

 

OK, so maybe I play small ball, try to get a man on, move him over, standing on second with one out and two chances to get him home, rather than try to hit the home run.

 

She is playing her own game and has her own insecurities. Trying to force her too far out of her comfort will cause you to encoutner resisitance. Letting her sit in her comfort zone and take you for granted will result in you being taken for granted. In the middle, somewhere, is a line to walk. It is not that fine, but go either way and you fall off.

 

Make her come to you, but be careful about how far you ask her to go. She's only seen the new game for a few weeks, don't consider this more than a third or fourth date.

[rich_1517]

ok so whos pinch hitting?

 

im kidding you seem to be all sports analogies, i saw your other posts.

 

the middle. im trying to figure out what the middle looks like. its not spending time together, that part i know. i do want more, and im angry that she may be using me to kill time, she just keeps looking at what she doesnt want.

 

bear in mind im venting but i need to. ok IF she asks for a date, it does need to be on a weekend for me. but i dont know, even if she asks its still on her ground rules. she calls i go running.

 

its weird its like the fact that i showed up for her son is now standing against me. figure that one out. maybe its simple, maybe becuase i am playing by her rules she is frustrated and wants to see backbone. but it makes ummm feel pretty lousy inside. its getting to be time she knew just what she is doing.

 

i dont know guys this may just be one for the books. i know why she is confused on some level, she knows she has issues. i was the first person who ever really made her feel loved. and its true it was easy to love her. but... she needs love and passion herself... but she doesnt know how that works.... but she doesnt trust anyone to teach her.. so... she will start looking again, yeah thats it a guy who has what rich has but not what rich has.... but.. oh yeah my issues.... and around we go.

 

in the meantime shes stuck with me wanting more. so remove the part of the equation that doesnt work and the rest either adds up to me or zero.

 

this is where playing it cool drives me nuts. if she was open to talking i could help. but.... i cant can i?

[Beec]

First, how long have you been back dating?? Not three months. Don't count the two months she was "taking to decide", when nothing was going on. She isn't. You have only been playing the new game for a couple weeks, and so far she is calling and coming around for more. This is different than it was two months ago. Try to enjoy that. Your gut sounds like it is getting nervous that nothing will be returned, so see if she will return something.

 

Where the middle is no one can tell you, and figuring it out can be hard. But if she comes to you and comes to you and comes to you, then stops, and does not start again, you've gone to far. If she just comes to you once, then stops, you need to see if that is enough for you. It's kind of like playing chicken. So maybe make her come to you and see when she stops, then you can wait a bit longer. Play it like it is a pendulum, back and forth, with a little more force each time. (Different analogies this time.)

 

As far as her lack of passion, I would not try to correct that until I had her going. It is easier to do it when you know she has real emotions for you.

[rich_1517]

youa re right Beec, under normal circumstances, but we have a goofy one here. she doesnt know herself real well, but she is self oriented. so she the mercy dates could really be all she needed to satisfy her guilt. im not asking her to feel guilt but she may, she may also want to be sure she gave it the college try.

 

she was reading romance novels in the months preceeding the break up. i paid attention but with no intimicy happening i couldnt act on it. i think i understand better now.

 

she wants the dark mystery character to pull her out of her chains of passionate denial.

 

there is a time and place to approach personal passion and a setup for a mystery. these i know how to do. but she would have to have enough flame going on for it to happen. which isnt right now.

 

 

its the smoking and the diet coke. every book, article, online support talks about change. and if you are too stubborn to change those things then maybe this isnt for you.

 

becuase there are no guarantees. but its there. I have changed two major areas, steady job and not my business, i get out and plan things to do. now its personal health because im older, she wants to know ill be around in thirty or forty years for kids and her.

 

so i get it, loud and clear. and the clock is ticking. but the difficulty of quitting is the emotional side i need more stability to ease me through that. grrrrrr. damn. damn. i guess i have to try, and get out of my own denial.

[rich_1517]

iccck. heres another thought. this weekend is more important than i realised. i am actually pretty good at the underlying patterns that go with situations like this.

 

its been a while (that i can see) since she started having interactive fun with a male. she is selfish enough that i imagine she is thinking the same thing. her pattern of calling me and wanting to talk, but not being receptive to my calls says she has mental boundaries around what she is sending out. meaning she isnt comfortable with "knowing" she is leading me on. so my calls remind her of that and she doesnt like it.

 

so too soon for things to percolcate? not really, her offer of dates said "a couple" if she calls me to do something it will be a another good sign, but i have to prepare that she is now thinking otherwise. the only catch for her is putting it out there. im the dater, the one who actively pursues what i want. she is the sit and wait, then get spooked, the same mystery she wants she uses.

 

i am realising that the value of her offer to date will be tested real soon. this doesnt stop my plan, only reinforces it. but all the more reason for me to lock up a date.

[Beec]

Rich,

 

I was in a simlar boat to you this past week. I wanted similar things. My words inluded a complaint that I wanted to feel desired. But I did not wait for her to show me the cahnges before I tried to give her thigns she wanted. I gave her things she wanted, then threatened to withdraw if something on her part did not change. I tried the night before to make her feel special, to be the romantic guy she wants to see sometimes. Then, when I withdrew, she followed.

 

OK, now her concerns are valid and good. But the change she wants is not easy. However, if she does she you trying, then you put her in a position where she should be trying to change. Show first that you are willing to try to change, then try to get her to change. You cannot expect her to go first.

 

Hey, it is not easy.

[rich_1517]

im not expecting her to go first. oh, yeah she would be wouldnt she? if her hard condition is smoking then yeah that is a big leap, her fear she expressed during a platonic date was "why would changes stay after things were back to normal"?

 

it was a conversation in abstract, but very telling. anyone familiar with addictions or themselves knows we fall back on who we really are when we have what we want. hmmmm. thats been one of the reasons i have waited on smoking some, to know i am ready. but i feel the clock tick tock on this one. i was smoking saturday, and on our last date.

 

it makes me mad, but it is key isnt it? guess i cant say anything to her unless she calls, i will have to say "well im struggling with quitting, this is still taking time and very frustrating but i know i will make it". which is true.

 

but we have the other thing working against us now. TIME. you can only stay in a frustrating situation so long before you get tired. that applies to us both.

 

so Beec are you saying be proactive again? make simple contact, like email or a hi phone call? that would fit the set up for the weekend where i dont make a suggestion i make her make one, help me out here you just confused me.

[rich_1517]

i know i am posting a lot to myself here, but i am also processing really fast right now.

 

healing conversation. the idea that the other person gets a chance to express themselves, about whatever they want. the idea is sound. and not intended to express my feelings but to get her to express hers. thats a tough one, but what do you think.

 

point is we arent talking, not about anything meaningful. ZERO. communication is critical to relationship growth. so this must come into it somewhere. i suppose if we make it to a date, this one should have that in it. tell her if she wants to talk about something she can with me, ill listen. i have said that before but it may be time again.

 

counter point to that is she is feeling phobic. and letting her NOT talk about her feelings may be best.

[GeeCee]

counter point to that is she is feeling phobic. and letting her NOT talk about her feelings may be best.

 

Rich - now I know that you live in California and all, but really, is there such a thing??!?!!? We're British, we don't allow this sort of thing!!!

 

G xx

 

P.S. Sorry Rich, only teasing, but I guess this is not helping much!

[rich_1517]

so it begins

 

she called to have lunch. i told her i had already gone. but i could do coffee. I thought about saying no, but i said sure, but have to keep it short.

 

she looked good, i was smiling. she asked me about my day and i said its good but imstruggling with quitting. she was really smiling and glad to see me. there was much more old her there today. it was weird.

 

so i decided to be a little removed this time, not seeking anything. just light and fun, then had to get going. im tweaking her a little. i said i keep passing the cable cars, and i have never been. so i said im going to. boy did her face go through some changes. i think she was thinking hes going to do it without me.

 

i am still nervous about all this. withdrawl is still called for. the question is how much. i turned lunch into a short coffee, my fear is she may try to do alot of contact up to the weekend then POOF. like im planning.

 

but suggestions on how much withdrawl. she was very different today. she had really wanted to do lunch, she looked more confused than normal. i also didnt give compliments or strokes this time. i definitely had the "nice to see you" game face on. thats it.

[GeeCee]

This was good Rich, you mixed it up a bit, gave her something to think about.

 

Do me a favour, Rich and read your own last post, there is so much positive stuff in there. She called you. She wanted to do lunch. She looked happy to see you. RICH, THIS IS ALL GOOD.

 

I say that you continue in this vein the next time you two see each other. And then, we will see whether it is time for a little 'push'. Good for you, Rich. You did good. Try and recognise that.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

Thanks GeeCee.

 

like Dikaia i have to careful how much i am here during the day, which means i cant connect with you as much

 

i would call where i am as cautiously optimistic. she asked about an old ex who is married and has been a friend up until a real screw up last year. this ex now friend and i have always been very close, she is married.

 

but the new ex wanted to know if i had talked to her again. i have to read that both ways. she wants to know if she can be a friend like (the other and i have an incredibly strong bond) or something else.

 

i will not read into much these days. the actions will have to begin a natural flow now. i have to let go enough again to move in the right directions. but yes she was excited to see me, she wanted to do lunch. but we have been here before and the signals werent what i thought.

 

The five hour non date three weeks after break up, with dinner at nice resrautrant, the works. and the... oh im still deciding.

 

so i will act accordingly. again the milestone is that she steps up with a weekend date that is her idea. i will be congenial and friendly on the phone, but short and sweet.

 

but she was by no means standoffish. again the balance must swing a little this way for me to feel comfortable. the other part is that i make myself comfortable with DA DA DAH! self mastery, as a friend would say, Rich got game.

 

im looking forward to my seduction idea, i oringally posted it then realised maybe not good idea here. it allows for to actually move one little step at a time, knowing that she is stepping into a mystery.

[DaisyB]

"Stepping into a mystery". . . sounds intriguing, Rich.

 

I've been following your story for a while and have a similar one myself. My ex and I are in fairly frequent contact, he says he's "still deciding" (whatever that means), and he sometimes gives me good signals, sometimes indifferent ones.

 

Makes me want to kill him, if I didn't love him so much.

 

I've also decided to be mysterious for a while. . . not withdraw completely, but be a little more vague and a little less available and see how it goes. It's hard to be mysterious when our exes know us so well, isn't it?

 

You seem to be doing well at your game, my friend. Keep it up.

[rich_1517]

acutally daisy it isnt.

 

just change how you do things, and do different things.

 

if they expect you to call on a certain day, dont. if they are nice be a little aloof, if they are nasty be nice.

 

if you plan to get together, sugest a new place.

 

if there is limited contact. make him wait a day (or two) to get back. if he is still deciding then do no contact if you want him back. let him call but act indifferently to his feelings about you (if you can). at first we feel exposed that of course they know we care.

 

just like they changed on us seemingly on a dime, we can seem to do the same. just be tough and dont talk about it (and for me thats been hard, but the longer i do it the better i get).

 

perceived loss of something taken for granted drives them crazy. wants time to decide? fine. but begin to let him think a little whats up with you. but do not tell him you are pulling away (no feelings)

[rich_1517]

well i had started a new post but no ones answering. so....

 

i am trying to take a clearer look at whats going on. but i am realising the most important thing to do right now is take care of me again. i got out of the habit (bad idea). pyscial excercise and the other things i was doing really keeps me grounded and purges the negative stuff.

 

this weekend is really key. based on yesterday one would think she would call for a date, if we buy that she is trying to see then she should want more at this stage.

 

or.. she will not. which says something else. hey she needs to take care of herself too, so doing things for her is important. but by friday if she calls again i will have been enough removed that she should be wondering.

 

im realising that withdraw is a state of being not doing. meaning for me i have want to be somewhat withdrawn for my actions to reflect that. its important becuase too faked and i use anger as a tool internally, or other ways to be "less" wanting her.

 

yes she keeps calling to do things, yes she came to coffee wanting lunch and had planned (with herself) for a lunch. but remember this is the same girl who at three weeks after leaving me took me for a five hour "non" date and then said im still deciding.

 

she could very easily send all kinds of signals and back it up with nothing. not to be harsh but just remembering she could be dating others or planning others and just happily trying to keep me in her life.

 

so lets play with that shall we? asi pull away and imply the threat that what she has taken for granted may be lost what that makes her feel.

 

for now the implication is in only not suggesting things to do, taking coffee over lunch, returning a call a little later. but as time goes on it will be more until she either climbs on or steps off.

 

a fine balance. but yeah its about making her feelings of wanting a friend secured threatened. so that if there is more that will trigger like mad if she senses i am going elsewhere.

 

i have started contact with the girl i was dating when i met her. i actually dated them both for a while, then decided on her. funny.

[strong1]

Ok so heres date 2. breif background. she left in january saying i need two months to decide. came back on march 15th to say i see you more as friend, but lets date you have changed so much.

 

3 years together. she waited way too long to leave or show her frustrations. i didnt move in on two invites afriad to committ, had reservations about her being intimate and emotionally open.

 

 

Ok, I need to read your full story..but what popped out to me is that you didn't move in w/her on two previous invites as you were afraid to commit. That may have ticked her off.

 

My ex did something similar (commitment issues)..and so I'm giving him space..acting confident and aloof. Hugging him when I do see him (but stiffly), etc. I wonder if he thinks the same thing about me that you are thinking? She may just have herself in a protective shell so she is not hurt again. Just a thought.

[rich_1517]

Yes strong one she has very large walls up.

 

there are just hugs and no emotionally based discussions. its frustrating.

 

the things she has said that scare me are repeated "friends" comments.

 

"i see you mostly as a friend" after break up

 

"we have to be friends right now" during break up

 

"how are you and the other ex doing, will you rebuild since she was crappy to you?" recently

 

but she comes by and calls pretty frequently. and yes i balked on moving in twice. I have since break up offered marriage and to move in.

 

she is afraid that changes may not stick when i have her back. tha comes from a general comment about change, not something expressed to me.

 

at the same time i am terrified that she is really trying to keep a friend. she knows that she wont get someone like me in her life again. thats just honest there arent many like me, but she could fall in love with someone else and want someone else.

 

i need a plan that allows for cutting the friendship to what i can handle (that becomes no contact) or to resotre her respect and wanting me should it go that way.

[rich_1517]

ok this is the place where it gets tricky.

 

i dont want to chase her away by beeing surly or otherwise "unfriendly" so my interactions have to stay warm.

 

at the same time she needs to get the message that telling me thanks for coming and peck on the cheek aint what i had in mind. meaning she needs to start showing some "romantic" interest, in the form of initiative. a date she suggests, whatever that looks like.

 

right now i am struggling not to call send some message. i think i need to still let the week pass and prepare for no call. i know that sounds strange, given that she calls a lot but this is a big move for her if she takes it.

 

i will not tell her im planning to date others. im not actually but this other girl and i have chemistry and i know she likes me.

[Langeveldt]

Mate im in the same situation, and there are no easy answers... I mean HOW do you stay friendly enough for someone to want you back, yet not fall into the trap of convenience and mundane "friendship"...

 

Its driving me insane, i wish there was a black and white solution to this.. good luck anyway....

[rich_1517]

yeah it kind of stinks. i cant get past saturday night. the "thanks for coming" soon it will be time to ask what her intentions towards me are.

 

it doesnt have to expose me much. just a "you said you want more passion in your life, what did you have in mind?". a little confrontational but very telling. if she balks at that i have a pretty clear idea.

 

i cant believe that she could be seriously considering taking my feelings for granted, so i sometimes dont. but i have to be real about this. i want her to want me, we have so much compatability its crazy, but she may be headed elsewhere. i have to emotionally aware of that at all times.

 

yeah its getting to be time to see something of substance.

 

at the same time, she has a really hard time making a move so this will be interesting. I have ideas of how to start the party but she has to open the door first.

 

she literally does not know how to do this stuff, her interpersonal skills in this are abysmal, her problem of being self contained and not wanting to take risks.

[Beec]

Yesterday, she was confused. This is good. You want her confused. She does not know what is going on in your head and, maybe, in her head. You were there whenever she wanted, and now you are not.

 

If you want to push it or if she asks why or something, just let her know that you aren't sure she wants you around. You've gone on your few dates, and you had fun, but she has seemed like she is not sure if she wanted you to be there. If she does, she needs to let you know.

[rich_1517]

now you are talking. man Beec i was waiting for a post from you.

 

i have been exceedingly cautious about not "talking" about or around the "thing" perhaps too much so. any relationship or just dating has to have some communication, just a matter of finding where to start.

 

i will have to think that through. you idea is good, i just have to think about the response im asking for, i guess its yes i want you to be around.

 

i have thought about it. the you dont seem like you want me around doesnt work. because she does. that would lead to a confrontation about the overall of whats going on.

 

it might be go through this week, see how she plans it out. i have to resist getting together prior to the weekend for coffee or other so the pressure is on to connect on her week off, not a simple "see me".

 

but what might come closer and not be too confrontational or expose me too much might be

 

"you seem sort of bored. like you are just going through the motions of dating, is that accurate or do i have it wrong? i know you value my friendship but when you talk about passion, you sound like you have some idea of what that is for you, do you?"

 

thoughts?