rich_1517

wow trish, that was very concise and very very clear to address an emotional problem. its funny how this board works for me, and im sure many others. stating the fears and problems bring them into the light and makes them less "overwhelming"

Hi Gang its been three months since my last confession. ok so the girl and i got back together. if you are trying to win someone back, you can only do a couple of things and those may be very hard to do. this was my experience. i was devastated when she left. obsession, compulsion you name it. i couldnt think straight. seven months of hell. and i am still paying the bill. i had decided that though i knew we had problems she was the one i wanted. i cant explain that except to say, that in the end i believe that our love was something worth saving. and in the end so did she. she dragged me through a lot. waffled, said we are just gfriends, no sex, traveled together, family gatherings, and still just friends. it took a two week trip away with her son which was fantastic and her saying one more time "i just see you as a friend" for me to say "thats it, let me go, i love you but this is getting cruel, i will call you when i am ready to be just your friend". upon our return she said, "ok you convinced me, lets get back together" romantic huh? im the prblem now, while she is still somewhat removed at times, she is being as supportive as she can. she pays attention to me and is trying to reassure me. fact is i have been struggling so long to get grounded financially and carreer that i am insecure and lost much of my confidence. it scares me that i am so low sometimes. i try so hard to keep it together and find a way through this but i am scared she will walk away again unless i start making "real" momey and consistently. but its really about me and accepting what i have lost and begin again. its just so hard, and i fear that pressure it puts on the relationship. i know it should sound more cheery, the fact that i got the girl back, but it doesnt feel totally real yet, even though we have been together again for over two months. suggestions>?

Hey Dan I hope you are well. only you know if you have the strength to stick it out. i am in mexico with my girl and her son now for two weeks. now i can see from hindsight that i should have gotten into therapy early in the break up process, my own fears are the only thing left in the way. she loves me and knows she wont find a me anywhere else, thats wonderful and she is all i want (cough cough). its strange, the second time around, we have not said "ok" yet. for us ok means marriage, there is no other direction for a relationship this far along. but for you its time to ask if there is something to be gotten in the long run. to get what you want you have to let go completely any expectation you may have and live only in the moment, and let me tell you it hurts. it means saying its over for now, that my feelings dont matter for now. i am support and unconditional love without judgement or excessive demands. everyones tactics are different, but in the end the only real thing that works is acceptance of them as they are and seeing that we are strong enough to be without them and still there. ouch... it does work. but what will you do if you get her back? we have to become that ideal self with almost no mistakes allowed for a very long time. for me its worth it but the cost has been large, my memories of of the "dating"months are soooo painful in how i was and saw myself. we help no one in that obsessive stage. so heres my question to you. can you be your ideal self and still hold the thought of her? can you respect yourself, see your future and yourself whole and still consider her in your life as she is? if yes then charge on and never let the end goal slip from sight. screw what people tell you, my family went from condeming her to supporting our trip. either way take care of yourself. dont just read love tactics, also read "getting back together" and "fall in love stay in love" but dont read them when hope is low, its very painful. but very useful when reconicilliation is coming. good luck

well we will see if my change is now too late. man i get it. my confidence was not what i thought it was. how i know? becuase i have it back. things in my life are still chaotic as much as i try to change it. she is seeing that and i hope not judging me too hard on it. but i am also angry right now that i have been working to hard to make my life work, her work, etc, etc. im just a little frustrated. yeah no more talking. hopefully i havent pushed her away with the times i said "talk" then "not talk" its eratic. also the finances have to bother her becuase i have to sell much of what i own to make things work right now. life is uhmm interesting. i will keep you posted.

ok now im going to need advice! so the trip is on. we have done yet again more stuff this week. so it came down to discussion of sleeping arraingments. she was willing to do a one bedroom on the trip. her son is coming. intimacy would not work with that idea. so i decided to push. what is she thinking about that - answer her son always sleeps with her on vacations away. i said hmmm, we have to work that out. so i asked pretty plainly what are you thinking? about sex, intimacy. etc. she waffled and said that she wanted to experiment on the trip to see what we are. bascically its the deciding point of relationship again or not. and lets be honest, we go there and we wont come back. its who we are. next would be move in, then marriage. so i said please look at sex, intimacy before we go so i know my role before we go so we both can "feel" more comfortable. she is now thinking about that. but i did push last night and said "my love you will put off a difficult decision forever if you can come up with a valid reason" she agreed. she said she is. i said ok i will not pressure you again, but please come tlak to me or i will be cranky. thoughts on what i just did? should i let it sit? let her off the hook to answer before we go?

i cant argue with time and no contact for healing. actually for a reconcilliation (sorry guys but some of us are aiming for that) its necessary to become our old selves.

well i ended up staying at her house all day and working becuase she drove off with my keys. we went to dinner and then the movies. but tired and not feeling well i went home after. truth is i was already having the "post weekend" sadness. she picked up on it, said i was glum. wish i coulndt be so down sometimes. but its hard in the face of not getting some of the reassurance that i want. i know she wants me to be excited about the trip. im just not right now. i have comitted to someone who is not comitted to me. something has to change in the next month. i knew the trip would up the pressure. suggestions about how to get her to step over the line welcome. its now about falling in love again for her. she loves me and now says it a lot. my life is hurting and it makes me mad that it isnt orgnaized the way i want yet (money, work) i keep getting setbacks that i cant believe. it affects my confidence and i get scared to go near her while i am depressed. inufriating. but ihave learned now, not to discus any feelings when i am down. giving us a break from us is a good idea right now. we had a decent weekend. she has already asked me to do things next weekend with her and her son. this is hard some days.

ahh but thats the key. nothing i am doing would bother me in the long to tell her if i get her back, winning her confidence, showing more support, withdrawing when she didnt respond, dating becuase she would commit. they are all "tactic" but they are all common sense too. but ihave a different relationship with this gilr. overall we have told each other everything, we love each other anyway. but i do feel that is the defining line. thats just me. but would i tell her before she comitted and i was sure she was in love again. hell no.

glad to hear you believe that too. i know many of us are trying to have richer love lives, and in there our motives lay open to inspection. if i am successful in my own endeavor then i would someday like to tell her what i did and why. thats an acid test for motive. it would be nice if two people surrendered at the same time. i picked the word surrender because it seems like thats the moment that feelings trump reason. that would be us, with the exes its reveresed. their reason overrules thier feelings, sometimes by conscious choice or by an original fear, hurt or desire that created a decision that overruled their feelings. (that is not always changeable) sometimes an exe will try very hard to get to their feelings (mine) but have a lot of trouble with surrender again, thats where i endorse the game if its honest, its to get them to that point of unconscious decision making. it seems always out of sync, rarely at the same time. would be nice though. Danimal the more i read the more i agree with those who have presses on change. i am still smoking and i know that is a seriously bad idea in my own venture. we cannot expect them to change their own positions if we do not demonstrate the willingness to change. stubborn is for us when we are in a relationship its a luxury in attempting to get them back, and very expensive at that. having said that though the changes cannot be solely for them, they will lose respect. i chose the ones that fit my overall view of myself as positive changes and started many months ago. thats the other thing. an exe want to see real changes, and they will test them very hard to see if those changes are for real. so they better be.

Hey Beec, long time, good to see you. i think people get hung up on the words. tactics and methods. truth is i believe love, any long lasting love requires seducing each other always. if we arent making the one we are with feel they are special in different ways (depending on the moment) they and we will lose apprecation for the relationship. boring. yep, all tactics. and is my ex using them on me? sure, i agreed to sleep on the couch, so she comes and joins me in the morning. why? to make sure i will do it again. maybe the truth is in both ideas, being genuine AND playing the game. i get very bored with someone who i know TOO well. better shake things up some now and then. my fault with too much game is the lack of honesty and surrender. when i i know I am in love i surrender to it and show more of myself. if i am thinking too hard of the next thing i have to do then i am not "in it" so in your defense and others as well as myself, yes tactics, seduction, all part of the love game. to those who find those ideas horrid, consider the things you did in the first months or years of your last relationship that you stopped doing. and that was becuase?

oooh look, more posts by me. its cathatic. well after this weekend i see i have to boot the remainder of my insecurities. we are getting so close to the line that i get nervous. it was easy when she was distant, and it was easy when she was close. last night i was going to sleep in the other room, she invited me to sleep with her. she said thats what you were looking glum about wasnt it? i said no (lie) but if she would like me to sleep with her or the other room its fine. we are kissing a lot more and more contact. but that measn nothing for now. she is attracted to confidence, and though i want to be held sometimes and lose some of the past pain and current fears this isnt the time and she isnt the one yet. so i have to take it elsewhere. but i do realise that showing my feelings in a genuine vulnerable way is also attractive to her, its not needy i just say it. "this is hard sometimes". now after five days together its time to give her a break and me. we have the trip locked up for next month. this means i have to talk to L, it is no longer ok to accept any attention at all from her. i have comitted myself for six weeks to someone who is uncomitted to me beyond what we are doing. so now ihave to watch. i have said i want her to meet me in the middle, her comfort zone and mine finding a way to lead to intimacy. sigh..... hanging tough.

wow quite a hot thread, self centerness the nature of love and yes tactics. tactics seems to be the hot button. tactics implies a self motivated attempt to control an outcome. can tactics be effective absolutely. can you maintain a dead or dying relationship based on them, absolutely not. to try to manipulate beyond your exes own beliefs and boundaries is doomed for long term relationships. a persons values, beliefs and preferences will always come back. but that gray area? its called competition and romance. and all is fair. the one thing though i believe is the intentions better be good or the outcome will be tainted. so then how to rekindle? they have to want it on some level. so yes no contact allows them to see their own feelings without us providing the constant reminder. but the difference i think is for people who did no contact "during" the relationship or more specifically did not meet their partners needs. in my case she wanted "more" time doing things. so that was a very good reason for contact. not phone calls or email, in person. if on the other hand their was too much seeking reassurance, as i have done with loss in my past. then no contact or limited contact is needed to establish or reestablish respect. Danimal hard as it is, thats you. i had to walk away for a month, not return calls, blow off great invitations to hold out for more. their are no guarantees. but back to the tactics point. i believe they are ok if honestly done to get back to equal footing with an ex. but then the strength of the relationship must take over, people have to feel a genuiness with each other or it will never last or require constant manipulation to maintain power. so my advice? to myself and anyone who is considering staying in the game? you can do anything you damn well want,as long as i can honestly answer these quesitons? is my goal going to serve both of us or just me? do i have both of our needs in mind while i am doing this? am i damaging my self respect or theirs of me in my actions? can i accept them as they are now with no changes? persistence fine, hanging in there in spite of everything is fine, as long as it isnt based on a delusion. in my case she isnt seeing anyone esle, wants to be with me all the time, calls twice a day. very postive signs. but we dont have sex and she wont commit. painful. so my plan, yes plan is to keep inthe game until she realises she loves me enough to walk over the line again. but i run the real risk of being hurt over and over until she either gives in or gives up. i extend (by choice) the time it will take me to move on or find something new. but for me it is worth it. anything in life that is worth having is also worth sacrifice based on dignity. i believe (as does she and her son) that we have something incredibly special. so i choose to stay. BUT NEVER KID YOURSELF! to lie to ourselves that we have any power is ludicrous. i see over and over and even in my old posts the "little" goals we achieve of compromise by them. and if we take what used to exist and compare that to what we get now? never lose sight of the end goal of friendship, respect and passion. accept that short term success is good but only a stepping stone, to do otherwise is to accept less then is possible for real love to exist for BOTH. staying real is the barometer for whether we are going to make it or not. delusion based on obsession loves little successes. remember your dignity and be prepared to walk (always). but in closing, no, our exes do not intentionally hurt us. they behave imaturely with the power we give them, but its up to us to protect ourselves from ourselves. hating someone who no longer wants us is like hating ourselves for changing what we want.

we are back to sleeping in the same bed. sloooowww. i agreed to the trip. i said i love you she said i love you too. i said ok lets go. to anyone wandering down this path do not do so lightly. it requires patience, confidence and demonstrated unconditional love through acceptance of their terms. i have provided a comfort zone which she now moves in very confidently at times but is moving. the trip has made the idea of others out of the question. we both confirmed that others are offically out. so i will take this weekend and the six weeks that now come with my agreement and focus on my life and changes for me. the next barried is more intiimacy, i will not post details here but she is coming further all the time. and eventually will let me over the line. seems patnetic at times, what i have agreed to put myself through and i wonder if i havent built a house out of sand. i guess as she comes further, the sand gets more solid. hence the unavoidable reality that we can not allow someone to lose respect or take us for granted. still open to ideas.

hmm. well you never know what you will do. she is still pushing on the trip. i said emphatically now that if there is no romance and i am in another room then the answer is no. then I said my fear now is I may resent you, that you could turn around say you love me, want to marry me but im burnt out. oops or not oops. to save myself i said that some days im not sure. but that was just a catch truth is some days im not sure. a friend who has watched this go on put it this way "for some reason you both love each other but something is in the way." i said if i commit to the trip in a month then me dating anyone else is out, there is no way i can say "im taking a platonic trip for two weeks with my ex, can i call you when i get back?" i said it totally tongue in cheek but the message is "you asking me to keep in this with you, and your reason is why?" we have had a lot more physical attention this weekend, we are alone and having a lot of fun. i dont want to sleep in the same bed right now so chose the guest room on purpose, too frustrating to be that close and that far. she has said we can experiment in mexico, i laughed and said you want a commitment now with offer of romance, i want romance before i commit. tonight is mutual massage night. we have real table and well im very good. last night i gave her one and could have gone over the line easily. but i am building intimacy trust, that when is on her terms. anyone make sense of this? i think the story will turn ok. i have to keep the focus on my life, one thing about this weekend is i brought work. I highly suggest something like it if you are doing this. it shows she isnt my only concern in my life. talk to you soon

hi danimal i havent had time to read all of your posts. i am away with my ex right now but i wanted to get back with you. sounds great that you could make contact and not have it blow up. giving support and a comfort zone on their terms is essential. they want us to be around more. non theating, no emotions or presure for reassurance absolutely. no contact doesnt really matter. its more about how YOU feel. they will not respond to us in grabby obsessive mode (anyone) and can sense when we are our true selves. I believe its about restoring a natural balance that allows the friendship and respect to come back. as long as we pressure them we are asking for a "do over" on their decisions. never happens. watch your own mental bargaining about this, dont excuse obsessive behavior becuase in an obsessive state it made sense. (talk to friends before action). i know you have a hard road, if you know my story you know the road i have travelled to be where i am. it is still time to ask yourself if it is worth it. then if it is build YOU into the guy you both want not just her, they dont respect that either. and its ok to mess up sometimes, if you become "perfect" you may seem ingenuine. hang tough and keep posting.

first conversation went well. she is still not saying a whole lot but i asked her what she meant by follow my lead and this was funny she said "if grab .... then its probably a good idea to ...." she said she understands she has to express more of her feelings so i dont have to be as empathic and guess. i yelled "yes" and then said absolutely. i kept it simple and light, and told her the idea is that you feel you can say anything you need to to and know i will still care. the idea or premise behind that is people let go of their barriers if someone else will accept the worst that can be said. so far that has been true. definitely a new one on me. she is pressing about the two week trip with me, her son and her. this is tricky for me. what do you see. on one side it certainly keeps things in the mix with a focus for a while. i am concerned that she will not try to push her comfort zone out of friends if we go as we are now. it would be me as the neutered ex boyfriend now friend. i want to tell her that i need to see some forward movement before committing, that being there in aguest room or no physical could be very damaging. i want to tell her that its better to date and let things materialize or not then commit to time away, having a better idea of how we stand. or i could just keep playing to her comfort zone until she gives up. ideas?

so she responded this time to my condition of no weekend without you talking. she is now asking me to follow her lead for comfort. she knows its frustrating and cinfusing. she is willing to talk about intimacy. so i agreed. again be careful what you ask for... i am up here now in the woods and its just us. i dont really want to talk. we are fine without it, she is moving closer physically. sigh. i dont know what to say, i asked for this. but my gut says to do this: "the goal of keeping communication open is so we dont misunderstand and feel frustrated or angry. but for you its important i think that you feel you can say what you dont want to, to me but feel you should. and to know that i wont judge you for it or think bad of you. we spent too much time in our own locked up heads without really feeling we were accomplishing anything with the other. basiscally along those lines, the idea is to get her to "want' to open up and see that its effective. of course i could be creating a monster here. this is also for me to. i do have to ask her what she sees right now from me. this means i have to hear friends again, even though its really not that.

today i confront diplomatically. basically its an email to say "i need you to want to talk to me" not "we have to talk" i need to know what you want with or from me so i know how to move forward. to be so close and so distant from limited physical and conversation makes it very hard to know whats going on and it can be frustrating. we have a great time together, and we are best friends. i know we would have a great time this weekend. i need you to want to talk to me before i commit to a weekend away. and its ok if you dont want to. its just a little frustrating right now. we'll see what happens. we had a great time last night, but again when i went over the physical line (my nature) she let me but then i asked was that innappropriate? she said yes. but she did let me. and i could feel that she liked it (mild touching and strokes) sigh.

man am i struggling with fear and anger today. i pushed on her last night on the phone. i said isnt it a little strange to go away for two weeks with things so relationally ambigous? and then said well do you mind if i bring a date? obviously i have to slow down my rage and the fact that i am not getting what i want right now. patience is difficult when my fears of what might be happening take over. this is just for today, becuase i am in fear about work right now. things are looking good but there is nothing concrete again. and that makes being grounded hard. so i will stay in no resolution mode, nothing to figure out today. i have decide if i am going to go up to her moms, i think i will ride up saturday on my own and not with her for four days.

here have been some things i have learned. if you dont have good friction with a woman, try new positions or better yet make sure you ring her bell orally first. lets face it if we are under 7 inches the fantasy of "splitting" her in two really caters to our sense of power and maleness. but most women may fanatasize about large now and then, a healthy woman will not trade it for good loving with someone they love. i also have used the rule of repeat business. if they keep coming baclk for more, then i must be doing something right. of the (cough cough) more then a few women i have been with this is very true, being a good lover is mroe important. i talked with someone i have dated last night, she mentioned there was two things, it hurts if too big and one of the "larger" gents was lame in bed. im not big, im not small, but she clearly wants to get me back in bed. so see repeat business rule. become a good lover if you cant achieve great friction. be empathic to their physical needs, switch between strong and tender, but always, always make sure the arrive in the station first. we know we will get there, for women its not always certain.

in answer to your question about with me alone or only son. its now an equal split between both. to show some self direction on this a little respect is needed. i am going to take some work up with me this weekend, and tell her i need at least a couple of hours to do it, if she can accept that. the other is that i may say i might want to sleep in another bed unless she asks me to join her. i have been in the camp of she knows once we cross that line the "friends" thing is out the window. many people do friends with privileges but we arent that wouldnt happen, its the opposite, im the lover without privileges.

HI if you have been following my story i put my name in it so you can skip it if bored. im not that pathetic but this has been going for five months. but i still need advice. breifly: three years together, lots of love, friendship, support, stubborness, mutually compatible in spiritual, friendship, mentally, financially, romance. until: she asked me to move in, i said no twice becuase i was afraid and i wanted her to open up more. by business failed and she shut down intimately (has with every relationship for her). in january she left saying i need time. came back two months later and said lets date and see. she said i see you more as a friend but i love you so lets see. i ended that and said i would start dating others becuase she showed no interest in moving forward after four weeks. she kept calling i caved in said i want you back. so we started dating again, this time with camping, weekend trips. still no sex or serious kissing. this moves to me sleeping over (on couch), and her and her son sleeping here. again no sex. now she has invited me for four days up in the mountains alone, and a trip out of country for two weeks. i am heavily invovled with her and her son who loves me. we are all very good together. even though i have no kids she talks to me constantly about parenting a young boy (having been a rascal as child i know him very well). she now includes areas of change she would like to see in our conversations. as do i. we have been having a great time, she is giving all her free time to seeing me and has said this "i love you, i love being with you, i dont want to lose you, i dotn understand myself" so she is keeping intimacy completely at bay and i feel like the friend who is taken for granted, except you dont try to book all your free time with one friend who was a lover for so long. or do you? right now we are looking at an entire summer of plans. so my question is this: i have been doing the non threatening accepting her comfort zone route, not pushing sex but keeping it in her mind. and i date others, i dont push or when i do i apologise and pull away some, she follows. this is not going to be enough i think, or is it. these are my thoughts on next steps: 1. do nothing and let her drive until she caves in. she has now taken over planning again and her heart will follow (and the rest of her) this approach means very slooooow progress. 2. confront diplomatically: say "i love being with you, and i want to travel and do everything, but its confusing if there is no intimacy, can you tell me whats happeing for you? the idea of being together with this much unclarity is kind of hard" 3. push harder: "i need you to talk to me about what we are doing, whether romance is something you want, we do everything together except those things that would makes us a real couple, how long do you need? and what are your expectations from me?" or of course your ideas....

Hey Jony like the face. we have been broken up for five months. the first two clearly broken up but in reality we have not had a week of no contact (except when i asked for it) since she ended it. after two months she said lets date and see. we were "official" for three years.

i know i just keep posting and perhaps i am alone in here. but you know this works. to hear my own thoughts on digital paper. on one hand i am tempted to do nothing, just relax and let this unfold on her timetable. but if we assume my backbone is an important part of the relationship, then i better keep rebuilding it. lack of respect will either give me no ground for reconcilliation because i am too weak, or we go back in and i have no ground to stand on and my needs are nowhere in the mix. yes i am making a big assumption here, that she is moving towards reconcilliation. there is one major clue that is important. during a hike she was commenting on my mismatched sox. i did it on purpose, off tones in the same family. she wanted to say something, then held back. i said go ahead. she said one of the things that has bothered her in the past has been my not keeping my clothes neat. i dress well but i am a bachelor, so sometimes details get missed. the important thing is: she expressed a change she would like to see. thats important, its the first since break up. others things were reasons why no relationship, this was change would make me feel better. there should be relationship police. there really should. she would have so many points on her license they would revoke it.

what the? ok so the woman i love has now invited me to go away for two weeks with her and her son. no small trip either. this is out of country. and next weekend? four days at her moms in the middle of nowhere. i had expected her not to invite me. so heres how we interact, good eye contact, open conversation, considerateness, caring, touching (non sexual), shared responsibities, comfort. and of course fun and more importantly we make each other and her son just plain feel good. but... no serious kissing, last night i went to be with no good night kiss. after bringing up the trip in august, she started to ask about next weekend. and i stopped her to say something, she said i know we spend a lot time together, i just love to be with you. i said thats what i want you to say, not would i like to go? i need you to say you want me to come, i need the words. physical looks like this: fighting, biting, pinching, twisting, spanking but yeah no direct "sexual" overtone. as i tweaked her nips after she bit me she said "you lost that privilege". i held my reaction to excuse me, but didnt you grab **** when i had you down? the point it this. what the? talking will have to come soon? i do know that my confidence and sometimes laid back attitude gets a very positive result and right now she has no room to nurture me. (if you look at her son right now you would understand, it all goes there) i have to lay this all out on a list and maybe see a counselor at this point to maybe get a glimpse of what may be driving her. it really could be the smoking and diet. that you know what will not happen until. but Rich is feeling pretty good, he knows that if he does nothing to halt it, that at least the next two months are serious involvement with her and maybe no sex, but it is getting exciting not scary, yes it is.