rich_1517 - her confidence is too high, im for granted

[DaisyB]

I like the first part, Rich (but I think I'd say "you don't seem very interested" as opposed to "you seem bored"), but only if she asks why you're withdrawing. Otherwise I'd keep playing your game the way you are, at least for a few more innings.

 

I wouldn't bring up passion. I would keep trying to show her passion, but I would refrain from talking about it. Discussing passion is like analyzing humor. . . the thing dies in the process.

 

Your game is progressing well. . . it's just a long-term game. You've got her confused, and (at least the other day) longing for more.

[rich_1517]

I like you daisy, you have a good perspective here. thanks

[DaisyB]

Also -- thanks for your advice a few posts back. I've got to play this carefully -- I don't want to withdraw too quickly or too much, because I think that would hurt everything we've built so far (we've gone from "this is definitely over" to "sometimes I really want you back" to "we need to decide what the next step is") but I don't want him to just use me for security until he feels strong, or -- worse -- slip into being "just friends."

 

(When I tried to ask him what he thought the next step should be, he just said "I don't know yet." So that discussion went nowhere.)

 

I like the new picture. . .

[rich_1517]

yeah i decided not to keep my own up just yet. you never know who is here.

 

your welcome. yeah its a fine balance between being there as a friend and there as a passionate partner. thats why i got "love tactics" the idea that you withdraw enough to create longing but not so much that they give up is hard.

 

i swear it seems its time to start actively making more flirtatious advances, at the same time, its time to make her move some. some would say yesterday was a really good sign. i just dont know. i would be a lot more comfortable with her making some kind of move.

 

but... i am resolved to hearing "wahts up?" from her. she will sense a change in my behaviour. thats the time for a short chat. just the "you seem like you are going through the motions, not a whole lot of interest.

[rich_1517]

well i think it may look more like this.

 

"you know the dates have been fun, but you havent really seemed that interested. i guess you will have to tell me if you are. i have been distant enough now that i can see we are kind of far apart, if you are interested i need to know"

[rich_1517]

ok man this is tough. i am really am far enough away to see the damage. my own behaviour, but thankfully it isnt that bad, but i did throw myself out there. theres a reason i feel taken for granted.

 

but its not that. i dont see her coming back, i just dont its a gut feeling again. she knows what this is what its like with me, it doesnt take magic to decide.

 

on the other hand, the more i repair myself the more i see me as who i was before all this began. its hard, when she and i met i made a lot of money had a nice place to live and a lot of toys plus my own company.

 

now i have a decent place to live, i am still struggling to get out of debt. my father has slipped in dementia and is effectively gone. and i have no social life.

 

all this will pass, but i have to unhook the part that is her for my own sanity.

 

if she calls i have to be very careful right now. the thing is i really could say if she asks why i dont call "when i do call you get off immediately and act like i am bothering you, you always say i cant talk long, so i dont call."

 

all very true. but part of me wants to call, to keep a connection going. i cant see the game plan right now. i feel that if i let too much time pass she will just let it go.

 

how much to pull how much to push. arrgggghhhh. well we'll see what happens. if i dont hear from her by friday i will assume that i wont and implement a two week cut off. followed by a letter.

[DaisyB]

The NC for two weeks sounds like a good plan. (Although I'm betting she calls you before then. Would you respond if she does?)

 

Remember that you just saw her yesterday, right? And left her confused, and wanting more of Rich. That's a good thing.

 

I definitely understand your frustration at her reluctance to give you much feedback. At one point, I think you said that she's slow to take risks. . . she's probably especially cautious right now. I don't know your ex, but if she acts as you described, I would guess that the only way she would take a risk is if she feels extremely comfortable (not much of a risk then) or if she feels it's her last hope.

 

You can play both these angles, I think -- maybe even at the same time! You can make her feel extremely comfortable with you when you want, or you can take away all comfort and make her think she's losing you. The comfort builds up her courage to take a risk when she finds she needs to.

[rich_1517]

Damn Daisy,

 

keep it coming. im going through the i should have done this a while ago phase. they must miss you for you to be valued. wait let me say that the right way.

 

she has to miss me to value me. many feelings and memories are easy to avoid if she doesnt have me or thinks shes losing me. its been easy to stay strong becuase i have been sooooo available. even when i havent been with NC she still knew i she came back i would take her.

 

I dont know how much stock to put in yesterday, she really was happy and had wanted to surprise me with lunch, so the slightly resevered rich with no date plans and sure a hug gotta go was a wee bit different.

 

but ok lets look at this like real dating. two people who dont know each other. me the guy, has called, made dates, come to her house, picnic, museum, dancing lessons, made dinner, stroke stroke.

 

if one week of not gushing with affection has thrown her from wanting to make a date, then something isnt right.

 

 

but i still have to plan both ways (INSANITY HERE) meaning get out, work out, go smile and flirt so im not an angry wreck if/when she does call

 

so i am sticking to it, she calls im friendly now, make jokes ask how shes doing, but no suggestions from me. if she says do i want to get together, i say that sounds fine "when?" i dont want firday lunch or coffee. i want a weekend date. so anything else, oh shoot, im busy.

 

but daisy how did you mean both ways? oh, wait i think i got it. when i decide to contact or accept contact make her all warm and runny, then when i am pulling away just be more flat?

 

hmm.. but yeah when we first got together. i took her on a date, i was busy and seenig someone else and didnt call back after. she came by my house to visit my roomate and said no i wont go out with you again. then came around my house for three months until i would kiss her. so thats the personality.

 

this may take a while. sheesh.

[rich_1517]

oooh now here was a disturbing thought. maybe surprising me for lunch was getting outside her comfort zone. ahhh. i cant think about that but...

 

some point someone has to start talking to get on the same channel.

 

 

go out tonight went bowling. starting to plan tomorrow night and weekend. must stay busy.

[rich_1517]

ahhh another thought. she may be waiting out changes. IE: smoking and diet coke.

 

that may explain the coolness saturday night. then again maybe not. the fact is im trying, this cant all be me. i have never done anything like this.

 

she is so "non" discussion oriented about problems or situations that i think she is getting a chance to see the down side of the that. becuase i dont talk about it now. so nobody talks about it. and thats not good.

 

if she thinks she and i can have a relationship like one of my past exes she better ask me about it. the one who i have a bond with we; didnt talk for a year and half, and then after that, she wanted me back, so she was trying to edge in the door while i was with this girl. after she got the message we went to connecting every six months or less.

 

so... is she thinking she can really "keep" me in her life as a neutered friend? foolish.

 

so yeah, she needs to see what that looks like, me not around, me not supporting. this is going to be hard. thats why one side of me says no to a simple date, its too controlled, no risks.

 

i cant say how i know, but there really is no one she is cultivating actively. there is no one she is carrying on regular conversations with. that may start to change.

[rich_1517]

hhmmm. i know i keep posting a lot, better to do it here then in the real world.

 

god forbid you are walking in my footsteps. but if you are, heres something i realised.

 

i look at my conditions currently: i need her to step forward. maybe trying to do lunch was something for her, i need more.

 

the balance is hard to find. i could come a little way back, a phone call, an email saying hi.

 

so what i realised is this: we have conditions. but are those conditions appropriate to the situation. some of our conditions are based on getting our feelings taken care of to feel worthy in there eyes again. those are bad. conditions to make them show up in a responsible way to meet our feelings as equals those are good.

 

im realising that one side of me is thinking boy is she going to have to really want me! not good. boy i want her to make a clear enough move that i can do something better with this. good.

[Beec]

Rich,

 

No apologies needed for your bunch of posts. It's like we get to peer into the thougths of someone who has all the normal anxieties and also a clue about what they are doing and is weighing all the various degrees of contact and withdrawal and various tactics.

 

You really don't seem to need mcuh advice anyone here can give you. We cannot see the situationany better than you can. However, keep posting because it is interesting.

[rich_1517]

Honestly Beec,

 

this is the hardest part now. the waiting and guessing if i am taking the right approach.

 

to her coffee/lunch may have been a move for her in her eyes and why am i distant?

 

in her mind she may be hanging in there with me to see if smoking may go. but wont say so becuase then it would have been for her and could come back.

 

i want to do a small communication. hey coffee was nice, it was good to see you. your computer is going to have to go to the shop. etc. and just leave it at that. am i blowing my game plan of making her miss me and step up>?

 

arrggghhh. well this would be so much easier as Daisy would say fi the "fear of friends" wasnt there. passion must be restored to turn friend to lover, and that means a sense of loss and fear of losing. damn. tricky tricky.

[rich_1517]

hmmm. on one level i think to the past. each time i have felt that its unbearable, she calls. and i respond.

 

but what i am thinking now may be too bold.

 

she has said two things that are barriers to becoming closer again.

 

1. "i see you mostly as a friend. i may be trying to keep you as a friend."

 

2. "i want more passion in my life, my choices in men have been the reason it fades."

 

well without getting too angry, i think its time to hit those head on and take the risk. its goes like this:

 

i think you need to look at your motives about me, you may need to go sometime without any contact, maybe see other people or do whatever you have to, to see what yout true feelings are.

 

this is no different then what you needed two months for. and its almost impossible for me to know how to treat you. our dates would have a lot more clarity and less pressure to them if you did.

 

if its friends i will need time to let go of my feelings for you as more.

 

you said you think your passion disapears becuase of your choices. i can understand that i can. time with someone can affect how much passion there is positive or negative.

 

Its been my experience that if love exists and friendship as well as respect, passion is on a good footing. especially if you are with someone passionate.

 

i have had times in my life where passion died down, and with someone else too. but it wasnt them. it was me, it was me not feeling the other things that make personal passion real, joy, sorrow, etc. i know thats not a comfortable topic for you, but you have said you want more passion in your life. when i realised that for myself, thats where i had to go. I could not get it just from partners. but i did learn from them.

 

romantic passion is different in my opinion, its from nurturing it, creating mystery and excitement. and thats where i think you and i got off track. but i am not you so i cannot say.

 

now i am saying a lot here, but one thing is clear i am not begging, i am not pressuring. i am saying go if you do not know what you want with me. we cannot "date" as long as you have no idea what you want from me.

 

As i said bold, risky but direct and maybe what i need.

 

no wi know what you will say, conditions for reconcilliation have to come from them first. but how can they if what i think i see is true? thsi is where i am hung up and feel direct may be appropriate.

 

on the other hand letting her miss me, may be the first best shot. its just scary as hell to have someone who is operating under what i see as "different perspective" meaning one that i dont agree with but have to accept that she believes it. as long as she does i cannot overcome those walls.

[Beec]

Rich,

 

If you want to go with soemthing like that, I'd tell her in person. But I would also set her up for it. I'd go out with her, have a whole bunch of fun, and then I'd say, look we need to talk.

 

I would probably be much simpler, saying something like: "I need to have to have some idea where I stand. If you want me to be a friend, I can do that. I know how to do that. But that is not going to involve us going out on dates all the time. However, if you want me to be something more or something else, then you are going to have to let me know."

[rich_1517]

the only problem there Beec is her premises, they arent addressed by me.

 

i can see what you are saying keep it simple dont overcomlicate or bring too much analysis into it.

 

but the passion thing needs to be said, she does trust my perspective on things and there has to be some doubt about that concept. if there isnt then she is definitely not for me, it shows a lack of emotional accountability.

 

in effect its saying, i do nothing to create this uncomfortable reality i live in, its just my choices in who brings things out in me is bad.

 

i need to see if there is possible movement on that, if there isnt i know what i am dealing with.

 

man this is tough. i go from just wanting her to call me for a date to ultimatums. damn.

[DaisyB]

I like all your posts too, Rich. I don't have time to post so much, but I have similar thoughts running through my head during the day, and I like seeing how someone else is dealing with them.

 

I agree with Beec that simple is better, especially if you're interested in a long-term game. In the long term, you don't have to address everything all at once. . . it can slowly emerge as the game progresses.

 

I can understand you wanting to bring up the passion thing, especially since it seems to convey her stance on relationships (expecting someone else to bring her happiness). But I would be very cautious about saying anything that may put her on the defensive.

 

At some point, you do need to know where you stand with her, and you do need to be firm about your stance (if it's "just friends" -- our favorite, right? -- make sure you withdraw substantially). But I think the way you handle this is key. . . if you're loving and friendly and then withdraw, you let her think she's missed out on a great guy. If she feels attacked and pressured, she may be happy to see you go.

[rich_1517]

you go team. man thats just about where i have been emotionally. want to push the red button, then say hmmm, is there still room to play here?

 

you like my posts i suppose i will have to go back to the beginning and watch the progression, great study for abnormal psych. but all things considered i cannot fault my actions very much through this whole thing.

 

heres a new wrinkle. the ex from three years ago? the "other choice" that i didnt take. i have been thinking, wow i have approach this careful she may still be mad. she cleared her weekend and said how about saturday night, LATE?

 

eeekkk. this could be hard, i dont want to confuse myself, but boy could i use some attention right about now. dangerous. thoughts about that?

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

You have worked really hard to set the scene for this discussion.

 

You know that there are issues with your ex, that have nothing to do with you. I agree that you need to make sure that she is in a secure and loving situation and then you have to carefully approach the discussion. You have done most of what has been asked of you ... you are actively persuing the rest. She can see an enormous change in you. It is not too much, now, to expect that she publicly recognises some of these changes, otherwise this self-improvement program of yours could go on endlessly with no time limit.

 

I agree that you should keep it simple and definitely you should not make it sound like an ultimatum, otherwise she is likely to run for the hills.

 

Suggesting that two of you might want to date others, if she has not made a decision, might just close the deal, but either way.

 

Good luck with whatever you do.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

thanks you guys are fast becoming people i have a fondness for and trust. its not quite the full dinner but it is a light snack that gets me through.

 

well i begin my three day weekend. and i feel pretty good since the other ex, wants to see me. that feels good. i have tomorrow to make it either saturday or sunday with her, so the current ex has time to lock up a date.

 

i have decided that her stopping by to surprise me was a reach for her. Daisy reminded me that she is extremely cautious. this is that part where my conditions must match the reality of my needs and the other person.

 

so i will send a friendly email tomorrow am. saying it was nice to see her, letting her know about her computer. and thats it.

 

the actual conversation?

 

i am sorely tempted to push a little, and say "you know you want something with me but you dont know what. we have had three years together and we havent gone a week since breaking up without talking at least once, more like twice. you have doubts about where the passion lies, and that separates friendship, respect and partner. i know that you know that. i would just like to say, in my experience the reason you say its not there may not be the reason you say it is for you. "

 

and leave it to see if she says what do i mean? understand something this is where i shine, verbal communication and relationship skills are my forte, but i hesitate to use them in my own relationships because it places me outside. i would say this is a good place to use them. But... i cannot pressure or tell her to change. it must be in the form of a question.

 

the whole comment about passion is a danger zone, because she will be defensive no matter what, in her eyes its either wrong guy or shes bad with xxx, and intimacy. i will propose that there is another path, and another way to see it. friends or not, lovers or not there is a solution for her.

 

thats not quite it i will edit it later.

 

but i will keep some communication open, if there is no call for the weekend, then i seriously have to consider this is a longer "get used to not having me" unfortunately she may have already, she just may be really sad about that fact. and that much i do know.

[rich_1517]

arrgggh, new wrinkle, i had expected to tell her the computer had to go to the shop. well i frigging fixed it. rats. i gave her this laptop last year and this year upgraded a burner/dvd drive. and burnt the video card. took me till now from christmas to fix it. dont ask, and dont ever mess with your video card.

[rich_1517]

rewrote this section.

 

suggestions for anyone even thinking about being in this situation.

 

be careful dating others, it triggers upset with that delicate balance of emotions we are trying to maintain. the possibilities of closeness, affection etc. from someone new make me miss her more, and brings the loss to front.

 

the idea alone is making me want to contact her to get clarity. my friend and my brother think its time for that anyway. they see me struggle, but i havent talked about this to anyone except here in over a month. nice huh?

 

i found that not recycling the obsessing verbally makes it easier to keep it at bay.

[rich_1517]

musing of a confused mind

 

never go out with a passive aggressive.

 

well i have been on track with my strategy and so far the results are as expected. i think her coming by tuesday threw me a little. i had wanted to give some hint of being around this week so that she wouldnt prepare herself for this coming week to be alone.

 

i know that sounds mean, but look at who im dealing with. she is taking a very smart very slow approach to this. very cautious.

 

its almost like she is honoring her own feelings for as long as possible until there are none. then go nuts. i may be very very accurate on this.

 

her boundaries with herself are locked in stone from what i can see. the question is how much to pull away and what to do if/when i return (proper usage of if/when).

 

so its now friday, and no call from her. i guess i am seeing that resolve in action. i can take a couple paths now.

 

 

1. keep no contact for another week, this will make her week alone interesting and certainly show me where she is in regards to me.

 

2. keep some contact like an email today saying i have your laptop ready, etc. this may open the door to her calling. obviously.

 

3. just talk to her. its been a very long time since we spoke of anything of imortance. tell her this is neither friend not partner, that there are now risks in what we are doing to both possibilities. suggest that passion is not what she may think it is.

 

if i go with number 3 i need to have a clear idea in my head of what i want as an outcome. right now i think its that she is willing to go to counseling or try more interesting things to create passion and resolve her doubts. but for me i want some sign this isnt about just friends.

 

i could wait out the week but things could happen, my gut tells me things will happen. the other girl i used to date could make this very sticky for me. i have to avoid connecting too much with her. there is something there still for both of us and i have to be very careful because that would end this.

[DaisyB]

My collection of Rich Advice is now:

 

1) Never go out with a passive aggressive

2) Be careful dating others

3) Don't ever mess with your video card (my personal favorite)

 

My instinct regarding your future paths is to go with #1 (no contact for another week), and see what happens. If she hasn't contacted you yet, you can go with #2 (email that says you've fixed her laptop). That might even allow you to do #3 (have The Talk). Obviously, #3 is the riskiest of all these. It needs to happen at some point, but only you know when that point should be.

 

As for the other ex (Two exes at once! You stud!) I think you should keep it very casual until you've figured out the situation with the current ex. So if you're going on a date this weekend, have fun but keep it cool. Don't make any plans to see her again until next weekend, at best. I'd play it very slow, because the two of you have a past connection (this isn't like dating somebody new) and it could get out of control fast if you're not careful.

 

The other ex may help matters in a way. . . if things go well, and you want to keep seeing her, it could help you decide what you want to do with the current ex. Maybe a little bit of outside pressure is just what this game needs!

[rich_1517]

Thanks Daisy

 

i realised im saying the same things over again.

 

its just a matter of when i guess. the making her miss me may take some time. but the platonic strokes need to halt from me.

 

she is not at her office today. that is odd, she usually is on every friday. and actually a good sign, it means she is very very busy in the field.

 

that may explain why no call. one more week wont make a difference right? i mean she isnt going to meet someone or close the door this weekend right? thats the crap in my head.

 

she will call, its a question of when and for what. if she doesnt call for this weekend she will give me some blah story about how boring her weekend was. i think im getting the hang of this, when in fact she may be doing other things

 

I have to say that one thing that is hard, is that she may have felt brushed off tuesday. i wasnt nasty but i wasnt overly interested. i was intentiionally flat. but like all things perspective, that may have been a reach for her and she may feel she is being snubbed.

 

the other girl will be tomorrow night. i am taking a chance by getting together with her on a saturday night, she has an hour drive so i will invite her to stay, just have to offer the couch.

 

i am sad that its like this, i cant see what else to do. to go to her hat in hand again in any fashion would sink it. but laying out terms would be very good, she just has to blink first. rats.