Drugs Are Bad Yes?

[pryda]

Your approach to debate is shockingly ridiculous.

 

Firstly, you SHOULD cite your arguments instead of just assuming that "any reasonable person already knows them." Not only are you making an assumption here that everyone else in the world of any value automatically agrees with you, but you're also making the assumption that if most people believe something then it must be true.

 

Your second fallacy is an ad hominem one - in other words, you're dismissing my arguments as invalid simply because I'm a drug user and thereforeeee I'm bound to say all this anyway, in an attempt to justify what I do. Can you not see how that is a poor way of arguing?

 

Grow up.

[JadedStar]

Your approach to debate is shockingly ridiculous.

 

Firstly, you SHOULD cite your arguments instead of just assuming that "any reasonable person already knows them." Not only are you making an assumption here that everyone else in the world of any value automatically agrees with you, but you're also making the assumption that if most people believe something then it must be true.

 

Your second fallacy is an ad hominem one - in other words, you're dismissing my arguments as invalid simply because I'm a drug user and thereforeeee I'm bound to say all this anyway, in an attempt to justify what I do. Can you not see how that is a poor way of arguing?

 

Grow up.

 

You seem to forget one thing - I am not HERE to debate this with you. I am not here to justify anything. I am giving my support to Stranded on her stance.

 

Find someone who is interested in arguing, I am not. I pointed out what I felt to be denial statements in your post. If my goal here were to convince others that drugs are poor that would be different. The OP already AGREES that drug use is poor so I am here lending her support.

 

Toke to you later!

[stranded247]

But I'm not ignorant, I know a lot about what drugs do and I read enough about everyday tragedies that were a result of drug use. I would even go as far to say that you are being ignorant for stating that drugs are fine as long as they not taken irresponsibly. The whole point of drugs is that they are mostly addictive substances (i'm only really talking about illegal drugs here and nicotine and alcohol) and very few people are actually able to take them responsibly. Sure you get people who try them once and decide they dont like it but the majority of users become dependant on it and need their daily fixture.

Of course it doesn't count for everything, I know the government isn't lying about drugs, this country has changed political party after political party and still no matter what party the government is under-the general message is that drugs are damaging to your health.

Sorry but that is the stupidest analogy. Firstly driving cars isn't illegal. Sure the crap that happens when people are involved in problems occurring around drugs do have some responsibility but when drugs are substances that alter the way people act and behave such as cocaine which can make someone incredibly violent and aggressive then its THE SUBSTANCE. Not only that but some people can take loads of hits before they get hooked, others only need a few before they are hooked-its so subjective and you can never tell whether someone is going to be fine under the influence of drugs or whether they are going to become pyschotic-which is why its dangerous-YOU SIMPLY DONT KNOW WHAT CAN HAPPEN.

Anyway the point of this thread was actually more about why drugs are more common in cities and not in such rural areas. What makes people living in urban areas more likely to take drugs?

[pryda]

the majority of users become dependant on it and need their daily fixture.

Wrong, the majority of drug users are not addicts.

 

Anyway the point of this thread was actually more about why drugs are more common in cities and not in such rural areas. What makes people living in urban areas more likely to take drugs?

Greater availability of drugs.

Lower cost of drugs.

Poorer living conditions and poorer quality of life (generally).

[stranded247]

Wrong, the majority of drug users are not addicts.

Really? Do tell where you sourced this from.

[rocio]

link removed

 

... I have no idea how accurate this is, especially given the website it's posted on. But honestly, I'm surprised those rates are so high. Very scary. 13% of people who tried heroin were hooked after the first year. I am SO having manditory drug testing in my home when my kids are teenagers! lol

[sophie274]

Stranded:

 

I know Iran has a shockingly high rate of drug use, drug abuse and drug addiction (and drug related deaths). I do have figures, but too lazy to put them up right now, but I believe it's about 20% of the population that has a drug addiction. The main reason people give for this is social discontent and alienation from "society" (the norms of which are pretty much imposed by the government). Sort of off topic but I thought it could add to your reasons why people do drugs. It is more of an urban phenomenon around Tehran and in other big cities. I would assume it's because family ties are more pronounced in the country side, and living is a bit more "tribal", so it's harder for young people to get access to drugs. In many countries as well, the rural folk tend to be more conservative than their urban counterparts, and more attached to their traditional ways of life and traditional (usually family) values, which don't include drugs! This doesn't hold weight in many Western countries though.

[sophie274]

link removed

 

... I have no idea how accurate this is, especially given the website it's posted on. But honestly, I'm surprised those rates are so high. Very scary. 13% of people who tried heroin were hooked after the first year. I am SO having manditory drug testing in my home when my kids are teenagers! lol

 

That's one of the reasons I have no desire to do drugs. 13% is too high! But heroin is kind of out there - I know a fair number of people at my school do cocaine. At 9% of addictions, there's a 10% chance after trying it once that you'll be addicted after a year (not really, I know that's not how it works, but let's assume I'm average). Too much for me. I don't care how great the high is or whatever, I don't trust myself enough to know I won't be one of those 9%. (Apart from all the other reasons I don't want to do drugs).

[teknoise]

Everything I would have said in this thread has already been said by pryda but I think its worth pointing out that the govn't's goal of making people fear drugs and drug users like a plague is working. I think until people realize that drug users are everywhere and are living normal lives it will continue to be something ostracized by society. And those that do use are not going to come out of the closet and say anything, lest they lose their livelihood.

 

The only people who are known as drug users are the bums downtown, or the drug addicts, or the kids who die of an overdose because they weren't properly educated on drug use. The normal average joe who takes drugs keeps his weekend life top secret, because he's got a lot to lose by telling people about his walk through the forest on lsd where he found such a profound connection to nature as if he was experiencing it for the first time, or the new deep bonds he created with near strangers at an afterparty on ecstasy.

 

What would you do if you found out Bob from accounting goes to raves on the weekends and eats pills? What if the nice young couple down the street chomp mushrooms and go to the theatre once in a while? What if you've known them both for years and think they are wonderful people?

 

Are they somehow less of a person because they expand their minds? Does your heart sink a little because ol' innocent looking Bob has actually eaten drugs since the day you met him, unbeknownst to you?

 

If so, why? What if his life has been enhanced on the rare occasions he does it? What if ecstasy has unlocked parts of him he was too insecure to unlease before?

 

People are very quick to only see the drug addict in the street, and think the occasional E popper will turn out to be him. Well let me tell ya, they won't. In my day I've known a LOT of drug users. They all turn out fine provided they stick to non-addictive drugs and play it safe and be educated.

 

If you know your limits, know how to properly moderate, you'll be just fine. Of all the friends I used to party with and do drugs with, everybody has turned out just fine. College educations, mortgages, nice cars, etc.

 

In all my drug taking years I've never lost a job, never lost a gf from drugs, never got in a fight, never broke anything, never failed a college course, but I sure have had a hell of a lot of fun, and learned a lot about myself as well.

 

In fact, I can attribute to LSD getting over my exwife and taking the first step to moving on. I was stuck for months not sure if I wanted her back or not, trying to get her back, even going through tons of counseling with her. It hit a pinnacle where I was in this endless loop I was unable to get out of as I lacked the ability to look beyond my emotional needs. I took acid in hopes that it would help me get a different perspective on things and it did very much so. I canceled counseling the next day and worked toward the decision of emotionally detaching myself from my ex and moving on.

 

Anyway, my point in all this is that its important to separate drug addicts from drug users, and harmful drugs from the ones that aren't so harmful. If you make calculated assessments of risk vs benefit, and learn moderation, and stick to drugs that aren't physically addictive, you'll turn out fine.

[Mythical_Suicide]

Well said, teknoise

 

I have used many drugs in my day and for awhile I was using regularly (not something I am proud of!) but I did do it but I still managed to lead a normal life I worked hard everyday most days 12 hour days, plus I was taking care of my son as I said I am not proud of that! but I did manage to live a normal life even though I was doing drugs. I graduated High School and plan on going to college once I decide for sure what I want to do, I take care of myself. Like teknoise said, you can't confuse drug 'users' with abusers. Not everyone who does drugs is going to turn into a lowlife scum living on the street.

 

It annoys me that people are so quick to judge someone that occasionally uses drugs yet if someone drinks alcohol daily they're ok. Why? because it's labeled as "legal" yea, well drinking alcohol daily is just as harmful as popping the occasional pill or snorting the occasion line of cocaine. Sure, Coke is one of the harder drugs you can do but I have never once seen anyones life destroyed from using cocaine and i've known many many people who you'd never even suspect to be users that snort a few lines on the weekend as it helps them chill out. No different than why people smoke their cigarettes and drink their 6 beers.

[melrich]

yet if someone drinks alcohol daily they're ok.

 

Who said that?

[Mythical_Suicide]

Who said that?

 

It seems to be the majority of people who are against drugs that believe that. I'm not saying anyone on here as I haven't read every response and haven't seen it said but I do see that in everyday life. For instance, I have been shunned by so many people for doing drugs yet the ones who are doing it are those who believe alcohol is fine just because it's "legal". They don't look at the health aspect of it only the legal aspect of it. Here in The US, pot, cocaine and the other drugs would be legal if the government could control and tax it. They don't care about the population and their health they care about money and that's one of the biggest reason it isn't legal here.

[Mustang]

I've started to realise lately that drugs and alcohol are only "good" for you if you are of sound mind. By that I mean, people that do it to block out other problems are only making things worse.

 

When I broke up with my ex, I hit the bottle and drugs pretty hard. I am very good at putting on a brave face and making out I am happy. So I'd be at a party or a club and I'd be drinking loads and taking drugs with my friends. But eventually all the negative thoughts in my head would take control and I would lose the plot completely.

 

A few weeks ago, I took so much ketamine that I couldn't get up off the floor and I nearly choked on my own vomit. Nice huh?

 

So I think it's safe to say that I am not designed for the hedonistic lifestyle.

[teknoise]

A few weeks ago, I took so much ketamine that I couldn't get up off the floor and I nearly choked on my own vomit. Nice huh?

 

Jeez. Careful with that stuff. People seem to think since its white powder, just like coke or mdma, you can take lines like coke or mdma. Just a tiny bump, that's all you need. If you do a whole line of that you'll be on your keister. I've seen that too many times, gotta know what you are putting inside ya before ya put it inside ya.. ya know?

[rocio]

what i always find the most disturbing is people who seem to think that drugs are harmless. my opinion is that it's people's own business what they chose to consume. I'm not going to judge you for turning to drugs to expand your mind or pull yourself out of a rut. But do the research first and be honest with yourself about the risks you are taking.

[melrich]

They don't care about the population and their health they care about money and that's one of the biggest reason it isn't legal here.

 

That's a ridiculous statement. Of course they care about people...they're people. There just happens to be a policy re. drugs in place that you don't agree with.

 

Everytime drugs are brought up, the pro drugs people say "well what about alcohol?"....saying drugs are bad for your health does not equate to saying alcohol is good for it. It's a different discussion entirely. With alcohol the genie is out of the bottle, with recreational drugs it is not.

 

There is no point diverting a discussion about drugs onto comparisons with the legality of alcohol. The fact that alcohol is legal is not a precedent to be relied upon to say that legality should be universal.

[JadedStar]

Everything I would have said in this thread has already been said by pryda but I think its worth pointing out that the govn't's goal of making people fear drugs and drug users like a plague is working. I

 

This is utterly ridiculous. My fear of drugs comes from knowing people who ARE and WERE addicted to drugs. The government has absolutely NO bearing on my stance to not use them.

 

NONE. I have seen way too much damage and quite honestly the stories i hear here in support of drug use were also used by the people i have known in the early stages of their addiction.

[stranded247]

This is utterly ridiculous. My fear of drugs comes from knowing people who ARE and WERE addicted to drugs. The government has absolutely NO bearing on my stance to not use them.

 

NONE. I have seen way too much damage and quite honestly the stories i hear here in support of drug use were also used by the people i have known in the early stages of their addiction.

 

couldn't have said it better myself!

[15 Storeys High]

I find it laughable that people are adovocating the legalisation of drugs. You all quote that alcohol and smoking are much worse....you've all seen the damage they do. Isn't it obvious that legalising more drugs will eventually lead to a similar crisis that we're seeing now with alcohol and tabacco?

[stranded247]

I find it laughable that people are adovocating the legalisation of drugs. You all quote that alcohol and smoking are much worse....you've all seen the damage they do. Isn't it obvious that legalising more drugs will eventually lead to a similar crisis that we're seeing now with alcohol and tabacco?

 

You've got a good point but say we made alcohol and tobbacco illegal, it would all go underground and become pretty much out of control (just like drugs have), people would still do it but it would probably be more of a problem if it was prohibted. Just look at the prohibition that happened in 1920's-30's america, they all went crazy. If we legalized drugs of course there would be people who would do it and there always will be but if we did legalize them it would take away power from criminal organizations and drug dealing and drug pushing would all go down, I think there would be a decrease in the amount of drug addicts. I also think that if we legalized drugs- anyone who abuses drugs and needs to go to hospital should not get free health care like the rest of us but be forced to pay huge sums of money for wasting medical resources that are needed by people who have tumours, cancer etc.

[15 Storeys High]

My point was that legalising drugs will lead to similar mass health problems that we are now seeing with alcohol and tobacco. And I doubt that legalising would cause drug crime to reduce. Tobacco smuggling is still rife, alcohol related crimes are still rife. It would be impossible to make alcohol or tobacco illegal now but I think tighter restrictions should be placed on it.

 

There is little good quality, reliable research on the effects of illegal drugs on humans and until there's a large body of evidence provided none of it should be made legal. People quote all these supposed scientific facts but most of it is a load of rubbish.

[JadedStar]

My point was that legalising drugs will lead to similar mass health problems that we are now seeing with alcohol and tobacco. And I doubt that legalising would cause drug crime to reduce. Tobacco smuggling is still rife, alcohol related crimes are still rife. It would be impossible to make alcohol or tobacco illegal now but I think tighter restrictions should be placed on it.

 

There is little good quality, reliable research on the effects of illegal drugs on humans and until there's a large body of evidence provided none of it should be made legal. People quote all these supposed scientific facts but most of it is a load of rubbish.

 

HEre, here. I second that.

 

It is really nuts to say that since tobacco and alcohol are legal let's go ahead and make more substances like this legal too> Since the aforementioned are definitelY NOT doing much good for everyone wouldn't it make sense to NOT continue to legalize more substances that are even MORE unknown as far as longterm negative effects?

 

Just makes no sense to me when people use that argument. It is weak and watered down. Overused.

 

Not to mention drinking a beer and doing a line of coke is not even an analogy i'd ever entertain. It is comical.

[teknoise]

With alcohol the genie is out of the bottle, with recreational drugs it is not.

 

So laws shouldn't be based on what is right/wrong or healthy/unhealthy, instead they should be based on what we used to think was right and wrong and what we used to think was healthy and unhealthy, but not change or update laws to reflect new findings because .. why again?

 

There is no point diverting a discussion about drugs onto comparisons with the legality of alcohol. The fact that alcohol is legal is not a precedent to be relied upon to say that legality should be universal.

 

Why not?

 

This is utterly ridiculous. My fear of drugs comes from knowing people who ARE and WERE addicted to drugs. The government has absolutely NO bearing on my stance to not use them.

 

Good job reading the first sentence and skipping the rest of my post, as I addressed the difference between drugs in my post.

 

These friends of your who had addictions, what were they addicted to? Alcohol, crack, heroin, cocaine, tobacco? Most likely, huh?

 

What I was explaining in my post is that there is a huge difference between doing crack or heroin and taking ecstasy or dropping a hit of acid once in a blue moon.

 

What you exhibited in your post only reinforces the sentence of mine that you quoted, where the average person lumps all drugs into one category and runs screaming from all of them thinking they all are evil and will ruin your life.

 

When was the last time you heard about rehab clinics being full of magic mushroom users and acid users? With ecstasy being one of the most popular drugs out there, how come its relatively rare to hear of someone being addicted to it, let alone left dead. [Going on a tangent here because I know someone is gonna say they have heard of death by E, and of course that is true, but the number is tiny. It should be noted that the media plays up E deaths to the max so when 30 people die in a weekend from something booze related there will be no mention of that, but when 1 person dies every 4 years from dehydration caused by E it will be all over the news for months. Compare that one death every few years to tons of deaths every day by perscription medication - legalized meds that a doctor gives someone willingly]

 

Here's what your UK govn't says about people dying on E:

image removed

Source: link removed

 

NONE. I have seen way too much damage and quite honestly the stories i hear here in support of drug use were also used by the people i have known in the early stages of their addiction.

 

Obviously you have heard those stories from addicts, because before they were addicts they were drug users, just like everybody else. Its just that drug users who stay drug users, and still have these same stories, exhibit enough self control to not allow the drug to take charge. I said, and my friends have said, all these so called 'stories' that you claim only early stage addicts say, and god knows none of us turned into addicts when we we're partying like crazy.

 

I dunno if by that comment you made, you we're referring to me as being in the early stages of an addiction, but if so, I'd like to know which drug that I don't do anymore I am addicted to?

 

I also think that if we legalized drugs- anyone who abuses drugs and needs to go to hospital should not get free health care like the rest of us but be forced to pay huge sums of money for wasting medical resources that are needed by people who have tumours, cancer etc.

 

I understand you're only 17 so it'll be awhile before you'll get the whole politics thing, but any person in charge who proposed an idea like that would lose their job overnight. Not only is that unconstitutional but such an incredibly ridiculous idea that it pretty much defeats the purpose of health care altogether. Go to an ER room when its busy, good chance most of the people in their played at least some role in how they ended up in the hospital in the first place.

 

There is little good quality, reliable research on the effects of illegal drugs on humans and until there's a large body of evidence provided none of it should be made legal. People quote all these supposed scientific facts but most of it is a load of rubbish.

 

Huh? That's not really true at all. In fact the opposite is sometimes true as in the case of Ecstasy. What Peter Jenning's Ecstasy Rising, and NBC documentary for a good synopses of the issue.

 

Basically there was all this govn't funded research that said E causes Parkinson's and wholes in the brain, it wasn't until properly funded and correctly conducted research was done they found that E caused no such things. In fact, recent studies are still debating whether or not ecstasy is even neurotoxic.

 

 

 

Not to mention drinking a beer and doing a line of coke is not even an analogy i'd ever entertain. It is comical.

 

That's a total strawman, nobody is proposing that at all.

 

At most, people are proposing the legalization of marijuana and maybe some other plants.

 

To clarify 100% where I stand, I personally feel that all plants should be legalized for personal consumption, but nothing beyond that. In other words selling weed should still be illegal, but keeping a bag of mushrooms or marijuana or even dmt for that matter for personal consumption only should be within the rights of that person.

 

I believe certain 'lighter' end hard-drugs such as LSD and MDMA in its pure form should be decriminalized, yet still punished when found with small amounts similar to what was proposed for weed in Canada. In other words, a fine should be issued if someone is caught with a personal amount of mdma, but they shouldn't be arrested and jailed. Of course, if they are selling it, then they should be charged with drug trafficking.

 

Drugs that have a proven record of causing massive health problems and societal harm such as cocaine, heroin, crack, pcp, etc should remain completely illegal, even in the case of personal possession.

 

My point was that legalising drugs will lead to similar mass health problems that we are now seeing with alcohol and tobacco. And I doubt that legalising would cause drug crime to reduce. Tobacco smuggling is still rife, alcohol related crimes are still rife. It would be impossible to make alcohol or tobacco illegal now but I think tighter restrictions should be placed on it.

 

See above in my post where I posted a chart showing E related death compared to other deaths, including smoking and drinking.

 

Its not such a black and white issue. Yes, all drugs do cause a bit of health and societal harm, but the harm is relative. In other words, certain things cause different levels of harm.

 

Pot has been decriminalized in Amsterdam, you don't see that whole country collapsing.

[JadedStar]

When was the last time you heard about rehab clinics being full of magic mushroom users and acid users?

 

The ones i knew who habitually used these drugs are not in rehab, no, they are chasing their imaginary tails. no kidding. The few i've known who dropped a lot of acid or shrooms are seriously whack jobs today.

 

It would be incredible if you used that much energy promoting something that is known to be good for you vs promoting things that you THINK might be ok and good for you.

[15 Storeys High]

Huh? That's not really true at all. In fact the opposite is sometimes true as in the case of Ecstasy. What Peter Jenning's Ecstasy Rising, and NBC documentary for a good synopses of the issue.

 

Basically there was all this govn't funded research that said E causes Parkinson's and wholes in the brain, it wasn't until properly funded and correctly conducted research was done they found that E caused no such things. In fact, recent studies are still debating whether or not ecstasy is even neurotoxic.

 

I'm talking about a large body of proper, scientific, randomised controlled trials by reliable authors published in reliable, valid sources, not some two bit documentary.