rich_1517

ok i think im being a little hard on mar. shes right, im just afraid i came off a horrible year of loss, my place, my dad, my business and her. and so i want that piece back but perhaps thats just not to be. part of taking so long to "get real" has been being so down from everything else, and missing opportunities that are now gone. yes i am sad. so heres goes again: everything said so far about patterns, fighting for it, not friends not partners, but adding that with all the loss of the last year its been hard to get clear on whats happened with you, so i have moved slow, but i cant anymore, life has to go on with or without you. thats the end.

changed this one. just see orginal its closest

Hi Daisy my motives for brining it are crappy ill admit it. i just am frustrated and venting here. competition is a reasonable way to get someone to realise their loss, without having to say it. i think im having a reaction to Mars post. she can be umm direct, and nothing against her but she sees it one sided. what i am not getting and not doing. its hard for people to see what the past is here or even the texture of a relationship when posting, but it still got to me. i really dont know yet what i want to do. it has to change, and what i say has to come from the heart either way. i just need to find what it is i can handle and how much to walk and how much to hope. i really dont want to get hurt again, im tired of seeing it so close up, at the same time if there is something here to be saved then i am all for it. so strength and hope, tough one. but keep it coming.

well i will just keep sorting out here, then pick through the threads. im now at this "for me to continue to date you i need you to show some active interest. else there is someone i want to date, its not my first choice but i do know where i stand with her." and not tell her who i think or maybe i will. she used to come by and watch me go away for weekend with the other girl while i was dating them both. i suppose competition is a legimate tool. she used to visit my roomate, her friend and would come by while i was with the other girl. i had suggested she call first while we were dating so we could avoid that.

there are a couple of factors here, but Mar is correct there is no movement and lack of respect for my feelings. this could be anything thats going on and the reason for it, but its death to let it continue and yeah maybe the best way to save it is to drop it. i have lived with the gut feeling that she is done she just cant face it either. on the other hand, we havent gone a week without contact in three years. well actually ten days on my saying i need you to not call. but we arent dating we dont have real planning interactively or including each other in our lives in any meaningful fashion. but here we both are. and yes she is not moving towards. but i can tell by her tone she is losing some of that confidence she had. now its up to me to make sure that it doesnt return, its hurtful and well its draining. so i guess its down to my needs and not my wants. more later. man did i learn this from women, get someone else in the picture it helps. this other girl makes me feel like im special again, she needed attention and for me sharing those things i have learned with someone who appreciates them is awesome. i slept very well. i know that i will be able to bring her into things if i choose but i have to be honest about where i am. in the past she has been ok with no committment but i have to tell her the truth and let her decide.

well i hope someone comes in to offer a glimmer of hope to Mars hard light. but well its true and its not true. she is not moving is real the truth. but the one i have to look at is she isnt moving towards me. tonight was what i needed. i was a little concerned that this girl (2) would be cautious or still angry with me. nope. we were laughing immediately and there was chemistry the moment she walked in the door, by the end of the night i had to say hey its late, i had massaged her, stroked her hair and damn near went right over the line. told her it was late to end the night. but being able to physically pay attention to someone was awesome. she was very appreciative. so i guess shes not angry. but i am sad, and maybe the truth is its time for the truth. that i am waiting for something that will not happen or it will but not from me waiting for it to.

jeeez, i like coffe but maybe not that strong! fair enough, i asked for it and i got it. and you are right. i have been playing a game based on hope because that is all i have had. and its why on some level im almost prepared to play by her rules. say nothing, date others, cut her off completely. no relationship is no relationship. it doesnt require me to say a damn thing. nothing does. im still going to ping pong on this but doing nothing, ignoring her might be better than once again exposing my feelings and giving them away. i have shown up for something that doesnt currently exist. in that you are correct. if i do nothing i dont have to face it either. i can just use her rule of letting go, do nothing. dont wait for the phone or the date just move on. if i am the only one who wants to save this, then whats the point of the conversation? i dont think it makes me a coward or dishonors my own feelings. hell it might just drive her nuts. but that hasnt been my style really. but you know i really dont want to hear "i just want you as a friend". thoughts on that?

hmmm. still needs some revising i think. i cant help but think of the game, the strategy. what would happen if i just went a little flatter? you know not pushed or as part of that sounds plead? i suppose some could be said without a hard line, and then still pull away and then come back and give her hope, then pull away. Beec? or anyone else in the tactics department have a thought on this? i know you cannot talk someone into love or passion, just doesnt happen that way. hmmm must be something that works beyond leaving her to feel life without me. actions do speak louder and the more i grow and stand on my own feet with this (im actually excited to have a date tonight) the more she will sense the loss. said or unsaid. i just dont know. but i will.

ok heres what i have come with as a revised "i have been thinking about what you said three weeks ago, I mean what you wanted to try. and unlike other times i have taken some time to think about it before i say anything. this is friends/dating thing is unclear, i leaves me not know how to treat you and well if this about turning me into just a friend its pissing me off, whether its real or perceived. fact is i cant be a real friend or lover this way, as a friend i show up but i like you more than that. as a lover i can do nothing until i get a signal from you do i can affect that not at all. its my opinion and im prepared for you to not agreee that we are repeating exactly what caused us to fail, we both are waiting for some sign from the other person about whats up. i think we failed becuase at least in my case i didnt acknowledge the efforts you would make, like driving down here today, or suprising me with lunch last week. which is appreciated and feels good. but i think we both expected some sign or recognition but neither one of us tried to really change, changes we are making now for ourselves anyway. I think it was that lack of risk taking by us both, that lack of acknowledgement by both that lead to us failing and thats where the passion went. i dont think our choices are bad, but perhaps our willingness to be less stubborn, becuase the truth is you have said you want to change things about yourself that i felt i needed, and i am changing those things about myself that you needed. funny huh? for me at this point there needs to be some direction on this, some idea of what you want for me to stay in it. three years and the last few months neither of us has gone very far, its also a lot memories and investment to let go. we have the same wit, intellect, spiritual beliefs, values, hell we even break up fair, honesty, trust and love. i still believe its a hard combintation to beat. but thats where the fighting for it comes in, either we both take the risk to save it or we both dont. but i also believe that passion comes from there too. seeing and feeling someone taking a chance and willing to try and make it work. passion i understand, I came back to the table willing to say i would accept less, you syuprised me by saying want more, im just not sure if i agree with why you think it left. but i do understand wanting becuase i want it for myself.

You go daisy excellent advice. i started having a very very depressed moment. and couldnt figure out why. then it hit me, i have given this too much effort of thought and compromise. two things are potential with that fact. one i could really blow it by it just being to much for me and saying too much. the other is that i am tired of it, of the game, the ambiguity, lack of emotional gratification, lack of being desired, it has eaten at me to have someone i have loved trivialise me by their actions. so its anger and depression, i will go on my date tonight and keep it simple, ilike this other girl but i think she will still be alittle distant from me dumping her. i realise im not quite ready to date a whole lot yet, its almost like i want someone to climb into bed with me to make me feel better. (a little lovin) but i hope that by morning i am back on track for the conversation, becuase one part of me just wants to be polite hand her the laptop and say nothing, walk away. make no comment. i need time to see how much of that is really true or just the moment. but i am very close to being done, and its sad, she has no concept of the damage she is doing with this ambigous approach. its killing a friendship and love at the same time. I do not think i have the reserves without encouragement to go a whole lot further. if she cant accept me on some level now, then she never will. at the same time i may come back around and continue to try and win her over, but the taken granted part has to go. there must be some essensce or words that say "your losing me" even its only a small message, its time becuase i will start to date with the goal of getting attention and affection. thing is we may be taking too long to repair this, too little clarity that others become a more attractive option in the face of nothing. at the same time this energy may be exactly what this situation needs. its like the job thing, the time to ask for a raise is when you are ready to leave. i can also say nothing. and do nothing. just withdraw and have my say when she calls. or wonders whats up. i feel this path is wrong when you consider a loving relationship. it rules out saying why i am brushing her off. im not really brushing her off, but i am headed towards other women. yeah thats where i am at. i hope i can pull it together by monday.

jeez. i think im gunshy right now. she called while i was out to say hi. i dont want to call back. i am out of sorts. man this has to change. but nothing will be hurt. ill call later when i know she is out of range, say hi sorry i missed you have a great weekend. boy i need to get out more!

its actually good we did not connect or that i told her why beyond her computer. somethings changing not sure what. obviously she was thinking already becuase of saying its time she drove to me. thats good. more then you know. i used to blow off going to her house a lot. i had the better place, yada yada. but i have made great efforts to things in her town, at her house. change. her saying come to me, means it had an impact. ok team. i need your help. i want all sides i can hear from, from the shes not worthy of you to the play the game longer to the tell the truth. i realised i am rushing to understand instead of listen. have to stop. i want to make sure i am not just telling her, but talking to her about what i need and what i see, then leave it alone, then listen or be prepared for whatever comes back. on one hand things could be getting better. i probably could have wiated this out, knowing now what her plans were. with her seeming to be positive its diffcult to pull the trigger on this, i also dont want to spend lightly the emotional capital i may have created in her. the value of me. but.. i need to clear up that this is doesnt seem like friends or lovers and my fear is that friends will be damaged if im taken for granted and lovers or partner cant grow because i dont know how to treat her if she sees me as a friend. nothing can grow, nothing can change. i dont have this answer yet. it could be just saying "you dont seem that interested" but.. this leads into whats good about us (see short list here) and that the investment we both have could be lost. we havent lost any contact since breakup, what are we doing? no one seems to be in a rush to go anywhere. is there something we are both waiting to have happen? some change or feeling? it sounds familiar doesnt it? this leads to "is it possible that you and i are repeating the same pattern that may have caused us to fail? that we are both watching for the other person to do something? if you want to know where the passion went thats it, but its both of us. i waited for you to change as well and witheld those things that could have made a difference. i cant ask you to fight for something you are unsure of but if i felt this had to be considered before we get to far apart from a lack of communcating. i have been very careful not to analise you or this (to her anyway) because i misused those skills before, but i though it was time we tried to maybe understand each other again and what we want. but is it possible that we cant build a bridge or truly find what we ahve as long as neither of will take a risk? passion is all about risk." (still under construction, more to follow)

he is six going on seven. and actually its only during this time that i even think about. i have had not motives to create any rift with him and his father, i realise that with any child, being the friend is better then being the parent. i got that down cold. he and i have made a comic together and hes definitely pro me. nah, i bought it up as wrinkle IF his mom is considering the ex. im letting this one go and focusing on keeping me groudned and focused. too much time has been spent for me in guessing land and not living which has been not great for anything. but thanks Sera. much appreciated.

thanks Sera i think i will take your advice and park it for now. yes i am concerned it does bother me. i should take heart in the fact that when she does make a comparison its for the positive. im just unfamiliar. i grew up in and around families that are still together today. the only reason i ended up with my dad havnig a new wife was beacuse my mom died. so there was never any shared anything, it was all home. so i am learning. her family is the same, her dad and mom though divorced still share many holidays as does the extended family. i think thats great. i just have my own fears and judgements around the "ease" of divorce and seperation. its my own belief that one day i hope to have a partner who will walk all the way with me. however not having been married who can tell? but most of my family is still with the people they married. thats not a judgement just my experience. ok i have judgements but i know they are based in ignorance. the only thing that has been tough at times is that her son wants them back together, always has.

i am going to try and say it clearly. because i think we can make our own reality here sometimes by reinforcing either a fear or a hope, we get feedback and poof reality. good but bad too. so this one is about a fear. her ex husband has come up in many conversations. i have wondered about him sometimes, he dumped her for "greener" pastures 4+ years ago. they have had a reasonable working relationship during that time, its one of the reasons i have been attracted to her, keeping a decent perspective on an ex tells you how they will behave in a relationship. my belief. i feel that if a person has nothing good to say about all exes, it may be they dont want to face their part. so i took this as good. so i will just list facts and try to keep my own fear out it before the break up, things were cool between them, very. he would be demanding and non communicative, jusgemental. her complaint about him was in how he talked to and about her. over christmas while i was gone he installed her dishwasher, replaced her bathroom floors. she said he's trying to make up for being a jerk during the marriage. last week when i saw him at her sons play he was ICE cold to me, realising he might be a competitor i made a point of talking to him, i said hye hows it going? nothing, ice cold. she was worried about his "moodiness". she was working the concession stand, and was going to go out early (where he happened to be) I said ill come too. she made a point of sayng no no you stay. i went anyway saying i had to use the bathroom. when i left at the end of this she said "thanks for coming" and a peck on the cheek. now he is going away while selling his house, she is taking care of his cat and offered her couch becuase he hasnt found a place to live yet. uhmm. theres plenty of housing available in that area. he leaves for mexico today with the son and didnt prepare the papers to be a single parent out of country. so she is going to try and get that together for him this morning. ok so real or not real, i have to keep it in mind, not fear, but in mind when i talk to her on monday. i want to ask, but i cant i know that. or can i? the reason i think about this>? she left at a very very bad time for me. i was already at rock bottom emotionally. there were reasons, but it was strange. she brings him up as a comparison frequently -> "you like that im detail oriented - he hated that about me" and about five others like that. all positive though. she said during break up "i will never go back with him", um who was asking? unsolicited explaination. so when she left -> i had no job, wasnt committing, wasnt fun, wasnt getting out, was judgemental. he had job, was there for her, had house now -> i have job, not being judgemental, fun, supportive, committment open he has no job, no house, is being judgemental and no fun i have to just keep fosucing on the fact that im a better competitor anyone see anything here?

ok so it is time for honesty, but also some tactics wouldnt hurt either. the more i think about it her resolve and barriers have been pretty up. i dont know all the reasons. and maybe her ex is part of it but i cant dwell on that or it will just knaw at me. so a winning hand that also includes my needs. and my needs would be: 1. knowing that she wants to try for real even if its just dating -> i can relax and enjoy it more 2. that she will tell me what she needs as we move forward -> i know that as things come up we can resolve them or not 3. if someone else is in the picture we agree to say so 4. that if passion happens she will not fight it -> this allows me to work that side 5. that if we succeed at dating for some length of time we will committ 6. that she will tell me what she is feeling more -> this about the trust that i have told her she doesnt have. if we can succeed at this many other barriers will drop. obvously i will not come to the conversation with demands like that. it will be the ones on the first post. as suggestions. these would follow should she want to proceed. so yeah its about barriers now, she has demonstrated something in showing up and hanging on as long as she has, as have i but its that next step. tactics would say more value must be seen and some longing. i suppose my implied ultimatum will supply some of that. the end of the conversation has to be just calm. let her sit with it. i have to prepare for an answer i may not like, and tactics again would say dont give a yes or no choice, open the door but dont slam it. I dont know if there is room in here for that. but laying out what i need doesnt necessarily close the door, it implies she will lose me but doesnt say it. she will figure out over time that if my needs arent met i cant do this. and i really cant, last saturday tore it for me. no more paltonic dates of ambiguity. if we are to date, it has to have something more to it. but what separates platonic from more in early dating? the option for me to seduce her slowly without active resistance. hell that doesnt even require kissing right away. i know how to do it if she is open to it. its create mystery, and use my darker and mischevious side but for a good cause. she just has to be open to it. your thoughts?

ok well she is exhausted and really tried to find a way to come by. she has her son with her. i let her off the hook, its good that i want resolution but pushing too hard will bring a bad result. she had to drive basically five hours to pick up her brother, son and go to the amusement park and get home. but she did want to do it. i said nah. she lives an hour away and said "its my turn to drive to you" for sunday. so she is willing to make efforts now. thats good. she doesnt know by the way that a talk is coming. i think my not calling is having some effect, and my lack of pushing may be also. im not rushing to make anything happen. so we have aimed for monday. i feel little crappy about seeing the other girl tomorrow but maybe its exactly what i need. she is really being supportive towards her ex husband right now. he leaves for mexico to take a vacation but he has to be out of his house by the 29th. she has offered her couch if he doesnt find a place. then he leaves to be with the "love of his life" in chile. uhm, she said stable is a high priority, he may be working her codependant side. this one makes me nervous. he was jerk in their marriage, lately he has been trying to be a "nicer" guy. not that i can see. her family likes me, thinks hes a jerk, big time. i want to ask her but maybe better to be a better competitor, but i could ask "is there anyone waiting in the wings?" anyway, her tone was very upbeat she was glad to talk to me, and wants to get together. i just said hey dont overdo it this week will be fine. i need her open and happy for this. not in fear or reactive. i really want to do this now, but perhaps a couple days will allow me to face some things. and say what i need to with love in my heart.

heres a refinement. we arent friends, but we arent lovers either. i have no idea how to treat you. i dont see you being very interested in seeing me, its kind of going through the motions from my perspective. i need to see interest from you if you want to see me.

thanks strong one. dont worry i am my old self, been waiting for this conversation for a long time. this isnt an angrytype of thing now. i realised that we really are repeating our pattern, and hers. i will say it, tell her to think about it. be prepared to here nothing now, or even for a while. it has to be a combination of this is the line, but here is a solution before we cross it.

ok i made the call. funny how your fears get you. i used the laptop as an excuse. she is going to her moms for the weekend. its in the middle of nowhere. so here we go does anyone have a problem with what i want to say? or want to add to it? she will probably stop by on her way home from playing hooky today from work with her son. man this makes sense, but the question is will it make sense to her? well its time either way, there will certainly be a little more clarity. i think i make a dinner, we play a game of gin, and then i talk. then say think about it. no rush. ill be here. (LOL)

i need feedback. not on what i want to say, but whether to call. a friend pointed out we are doing Exactly what made us fail, one waiting for the other. i think i should call. like soon. like now. this really is what we do, and why things dont progress. i cant move without her saying something but she wont, she wont move becuase she is a waiter. this has to be addressed before we lose it. if you want to understand why see my latest posts. I found the words i need to address what i want "im sad right now. im looking at how our story is ending, or whatever it is and its just like how we were for the last year. each is waiting for the other to do something, so nothing happens. thats where the passion goes. everyone plays it safe and no one wins. you said you wanted to fight for what you needed. well this is exactly how the two are linked. we cannot just live a neutered non friends non lovers way, there has to be more or less. more i dont know what that looks like, less i do, it means take what we had and call it a day. accept the loss of each other and that love and understand that friends will be something else, sometime else. or.. get in the ring and find where the passion lies, becuase passion like anything else in life is about fighting and risk taking, trust me on this. i live it. my passions have been my best attribute and worst enemy, but its always about risk of being hurt in some way, it wouldnt be pasisonate if it wasnt, safety sometimes has to take a back seat to desire well there it is.

i should post to myself. seriously though. i need feedback. not on what i want to say, but whether to call. a friend pointed out we are doing Exactly what made us fail, one waiting for the other. i think i should call. I found the words i need to address what i want "im sad right now. im looking at how our story is ending, or whatever it is and its just like how we were for the last year. each is waiting for the other to do something, so nothing happens. thats where the passion goes. everyone plays it safe and no one wins. you said you wanted to fight for what you needed. well this is exactly how the two are linked. we cannot just live a neutered non friends non lovers way, there has to be more or less. more i dont know what that looks like, less i do, it means take what we had and call it a day. accept the loss of each other and that love and understand that friends will be something else, sometime else. or.. get in the ring and find where the passion lies, becuase passion like anything else in life is about fighting and risk taking, trust me on this. i live it. my passions have been my best attribute and worst enemy, but its always about risk of being hurt in some way, it wouldnt be pasisonate if it wasnt, safety sometimes has to take a back seat to desire well there it is.

i guess this is to remember where i am human. i think things had gotten pointed in a positive if not awkward direction that on some level i have not wanted to be too negative here. to be sad. well im pretty sad right now, and angry. i guess i know her interest level. she hasnt bothered to call to see about possibilities this weekend. she still may, but i doubt it, shes a planner. so this is a case of "sure you can date me, ill do whatever i want, you come entertain me and do all the work, but dont ask me to invest any of MY time into it." im alttle bitter at the moment. i have chosen correctly how to deal with this, to leave it in her hands to call, no pursuit by me. kind of shows her colors. maybe shes cautious, maybe she thought i was being distant, maybe shes confused. um, yeah? so? i am also the guy who was there for three years and three months. i think if i dont see something of value from this girl i am going to write her off. man does this show how she feels, when i was doing all the work it made it easy for her. i wonder what if anything is going through her head right now? i hope the worst. but i know her and how shes been lately she might be relieved that im not pursuing, that i might be dating. she can be soooo sympathatic lately. i got the message at "thanks for coming" well i may turn an ugly corner on this. i am feeling pretty taken for granted, ok i put myself here, but damn have let my opportunities to tell her how i felt about this just keep slipping by. now i may in a case of chasing her to say "i dont want you". right. sorry needed to vent, grrrgrrrr, if there isnt someone else i would be very surprised. but she may also (unlikely) be waiting for my call. thank god i planned ahead for a date this weekend. she probably did too, the one piece of my plan i did not follow through on, make her feel supported "until the weekend" my attitude is at odds with my signature quote

Thanks Daisy i realised im saying the same things over again. its just a matter of when i guess. the making her miss me may take some time. but the platonic strokes need to halt from me. she is not at her office today. that is odd, she usually is on every friday. and actually a good sign, it means she is very very busy in the field. that may explain why no call. one more week wont make a difference right? i mean she isnt going to meet someone or close the door this weekend right? thats the crap in my head. she will call, its a question of when and for what. if she doesnt call for this weekend she will give me some blah story about how boring her weekend was. i think im getting the hang of this, when in fact she may be doing other things I have to say that one thing that is hard, is that she may have felt brushed off tuesday. i wasnt nasty but i wasnt overly interested. i was intentiionally flat. but like all things perspective, that may have been a reach for her and she may feel she is being snubbed. the other girl will be tomorrow night. i am taking a chance by getting together with her on a saturday night, she has an hour drive so i will invite her to stay, just have to offer the couch. i am sad that its like this, i cant see what else to do. to go to her hat in hand again in any fashion would sink it. but laying out terms would be very good, she just has to blink first. rats.

musing of a confused mind never go out with a passive aggressive. well i have been on track with my strategy and so far the results are as expected. i think her coming by tuesday threw me a little. i had wanted to give some hint of being around this week so that she wouldnt prepare herself for this coming week to be alone. i know that sounds mean, but look at who im dealing with. she is taking a very smart very slow approach to this. very cautious. its almost like she is honoring her own feelings for as long as possible until there are none. then go nuts. i may be very very accurate on this. her boundaries with herself are locked in stone from what i can see. the question is how much to pull away and what to do if/when i return (proper usage of if/when). so its now friday, and no call from her. i guess i am seeing that resolve in action. i can take a couple paths now. 1. keep no contact for another week, this will make her week alone interesting and certainly show me where she is in regards to me. 2. keep some contact like an email today saying i have your laptop ready, etc. this may open the door to her calling. obviously. 3. just talk to her. its been a very long time since we spoke of anything of imortance. tell her this is neither friend not partner, that there are now risks in what we are doing to both possibilities. suggest that passion is not what she may think it is. if i go with number 3 i need to have a clear idea in my head of what i want as an outcome. right now i think its that she is willing to go to counseling or try more interesting things to create passion and resolve her doubts. but for me i want some sign this isnt about just friends. i could wait out the week but things could happen, my gut tells me things will happen. the other girl i used to date could make this very sticky for me. i have to avoid connecting too much with her. there is something there still for both of us and i have to be very careful because that would end this.