NighttimeNightmare

It’s called an affair fog In reading your initial post, it’s likely that you and your wife were not that compatible in the first place, but you, not wanting to be alone and/or not knowing how to navigate/understand your own boundaries and needs, carried on with the relationship. As it went on you felt deprived and resentment grew, on the flip side of that coin, was the justification you felt to betray trust and destroy your entire family dynamic when a new woman showed up and filled your voids. That isn’t love; and nothing justifies you betraying your wife and child at one of the deepest emotional depths they could ever experience you need help

I dislike this planet

That's false She’s probably referencing the dunning-Kruger cognitive bias

Like what? Are you willing to disclose a couple of incidences?

That’s where you have to figure out (a) is there a legitimate reason you’re feeling like this; and I don’t mean through means of investigation, or (b) is there really nothing to be triggering these feelings in you and you’re body is going into overdrive at innocent things that resemble traumatic moments of your past bottom line is: if your partner refuses to talk to you be transparent that is reason to leave!

Lol. The relationship dynamic you described right before stating this would absolutely be filed under ‘codependency’ this is what’s going to happen, the relationship is unhealthy but you’ll stay because you “have oh so much in common” and are “basically the same person!” But no human being can withstand being blown up on and broken up with over and over whenever conflict arises. So, you’ll become a shell of yourself as that behavior erodes away at your self worth. but, you guys get along so well right? Thats why you’ll stay and keep showing up for her. That’s the codependency.

I mean… you say “no” to @rainbowsandroseshypothesis, and then go on to actually define the hypothesis in detail…. This is what I was getting at in my previous response to you: I do think there’s a high chance this guy is cheating because you’re [potentially] picking men to repeat these cycles with. Yes, you’re freaking out and your responses are very extreme to most people so they’ll focus on your behavior and miss the fact there could be a solid reason behind your behavior. I think your behavior is likely because you have reason to leave this relationship but youre not listening to your body because you’ve been conditioned not to, conditioned to betray yourself in order to stay in relationships —Prime target for cheaters to sniff out and take advantage of, btw— And because you don’t have 100% proof of any cheating, you second guess yourself which leaves the door open to you being gaslit, and you repeat the cycle again.. over and over. People who have a patterned history of being cheated on, are exponentially more likely to be cheated on. It’s an unconscious cycle now, suppose he isn’t cheating on you, I still think your body is queuing you into something, and instead of trying to invalidate yourself in the name of 100% evidence, why can’t it just be enough that he hasn’t been safe for you? Demonstrably so, your own antics aside. I don’t see this as an environment you could even begin to heal in.

This would be a deal breaker for me. If I’m trying to ask questions or explain myself and my partner is being dismissive… c’ya. Maybe you need to do the same. Stop making this out to be some Sherlock Holmes investigation, and instead maybe it’s just a guy who isn’t emotionally available and that’s a deal breaker for you.

Ok I’ve just read through all of the comments and responses So you’ve been cheated on in the past and have a history of being with men who cheat on you, lie, obscure things, and gaslight you into feeling crazy, feeling like your reality is a lie, and when you try to converse with them, they lie to your face. So you’ve learned to (a) not trust people, (b) not communicate, because it gives them a platform to deceive you, and (c) play detective ok, did you ever consider that maybe you really do, on some level, have an ability to sniff out liars and cheaters? Maybe you aren’t just “paranoid”? Maybe you are picking up unspoken nuances that reek of cheating and lying and your red flag alarms are going haywire; but because you can’t communicate as there’s 0 trust, you go into detective mode the thing is, people who’ve been cheated on are exponentially more likely to be cheated on again, than those who haven’t. So just statistically there’s a good chance that you connected with another cheater. Doesn’t make him guilty, but there’s a chance. And there’s a chance your paranoia isn’t totally unfounded based on your patterned history of being with cheaters. Your picker is broken. with that said… you need to learn how to trust yourself, and when to walk away. Again, this guy could be totally innocent, and you could be self-sabotaging, but until you learn how to cultivate relationships where you both are honest and capable of trusting, you’ll keep running into this same dynamic with these same personality types. I think he very likely is doing something shady, not necessarily because of the tampons but based on some other comments you’ve made… and your red flags are alerting you but because you don’t know how to navigate this situation in a healthy way, you are behaving in an equally “red flag” fashion that’s almost making you look paranoid and unreasonable you could try talking with him about it and if it doesn’t feel or sound right you can verbalize that “sorry, this isn’t making sense to me. Because I feel unable to trust I need to step away from this relationship.”

Nothing wrong with this response, many people have very valid reasons for not trusting someone. You should never trust blindly, trustworthy people are well… trustworthy. if you’re picking up weird vibes in this relationship and there isn’t a transparent place of safety for the two of you to confide within then I’ll echo what @boltnrunsaid: why be in this relationship? So long as this isn’t you projecting unrelated trauma onto this guy, you should leave someone who has given you valid reason to not trust them. If he’s gaslighting you, that’s reason for you to leave. You’re right to not expect an honest answer from a gaslighter and a liar. So again, why are you with him? Has he gaslit you before or are you just taking extreme measures to avoid a situation in which he could? If the latter is the case, then part of this is on you not being able to trust yourself.

What’s going on with the foundation of your relationship that you can’t just talk to him about it and instead immediately came online to ask strangers and begin investigative work?

Yikes. All I can say is don’t fall for the trap of believing he’s abusive because of his situation. abusers abuse, and use the situation as justification to strong arm their partner into forgiving them and sticking around people capable of caring for you and keeping you safe don’t abuse you during rough times.

So you’ve been using him as a security blanket for 2 years and now his behavior is changing and you’re unraveling? this is the thing with people who won’t, or can’t, be with you in person: it begins as, or becomes a, fantasy. Think about it. There’s nothing tangible to give you the good hard facts, So you fill in the blanks with good feelings because that’s what you crave, so it’s what you create. And you can… because it’s your fantasy. real people who are available emotionally, will show up physically. if you two need each other as a security blanket, that’s whatever, it’s your choice, but just know that’s what this is so that you aren’t completely jaded and your world isn’t completely rocked when it goes away. I think he’s just a symptom of some internal challenges you’re facing, esp with your health.

Doesn’t seem like she had an issue with seeing you there with someone else, just that she wondered why you didn’t say hi? wouldn't really throw that into a “playing games” category. But as to her not scheduling her own date with you - maybe she just isn’t interested in that? If the behavior isn’t right for you, just continue living your life.

Welp after reading these responses all I can say is that I have NPD. So I’ve found, through my journey of finding healing from my traits, that sometimes I think it’s difficult for onlookers to fully understand what goes on for me, and those like me, internally. That is, some advice that works on non-disordered people isn’t very relevant to someone with NPD. and without fail people will see my internal rage displayed in text, deep pockets of my mind, and go “oh that’s bad remove yourself from the situation!” While not fully realizing that those are my responses to anything that requires an iota of vulnerability, or when I don’t get my way, when I lack control etc etc. It really has very little to do with the other person and running away has never helped. I normally do that, I shut down and ghost. It’s only allowed my disorder to take further root More specifically: when I post on here you are seeing very deep pockets of my disordered thoughts. There’s rarely any nuance to them, they’re on one extreme end of a spectrum and I lack proper tools to identify or curb them.. then the rage comes out. So someone mentioned something about if anger is present it’s time to move on from a friendship. Ya, maybe. And moreso that may be true with non disordered people. But again, I’ve got NPD and I have narcissistic rage with ANYONE. It doesn’t mean the friendship is inherently bad or dangerous, it’s simply a byproduct of my mind. It’s something I have to live with, it’s not that the friendship is incompatible, it’s that it’s a disordered perspective. This is why people with NPD are often abusive, regardless of how great their partner is - the response to the rage is to control. However, I’ve learned to integrate message boards or journaling to deal with it, as opposed to being abusive to the person I feel like unleashing my anger on. I do find that with this woman, she gives me a platform to explore my triggers. This has been incredibly helpful for me. In the ~year I’ve known her I’ve overcome my need to bolt during conflict. Which is huge, and I’m happy about this. The comment about oh we are “triggering eachother too much” is irrelevant. Again, hi, I have NPD. The best I can do is to feel my triggers and find healthy responses or behaviors to counteract and overcome them. Which I am doing. anyway. With all that said it’s still very likely that the “best” option for me may be to end the friendship. But not because it’s “triggering” or that I felt “rage,” just simply because it very likely won’t turn into anything of a commitment. Either because I won’t/can’t say anything, or because she rly doesn’t want something. And this relationship I’m having with her is something I want with a partner who will commit to me. And of course, I won’t find that spending all of my time with her and getting this deep. And ya all it’s doing at this point is frustrating me. And that isn’t good. But @ShySoul I do think your comment is spot on regarding that portion of things. I mean, I read your response and I think “yes this makes sense, I need to do this” and it’s logically clear to me, it’s like a map you’ve written out on how I can avoid going into rage cycles in the first place, it’s something I need to learn how to do. The communication, the boundaries, but again… I just freeze in person. So on that fact alone I do believe that’s another reason for me to end this in fact, last time I was at her house and shutdown over something she asked me to communicate with her better or it “leads to unwanted feelings”. (Wasn’t speaking romantically, just feelings of anger and/or confusion). So ya I know deep down she’d feel a type of way if I never explained any of this to her, esp if I just was like “bye!” I also think she’s the perfect person, right now, for me to be honest with. I’ve been able to tell her anything so far. I even told her about my npd a which is something I’ve never thought I’d be able to tell anyone I had feelings for. But again, the emotional depth we do have is leaded to my sexual feelings for her. And if that really isn’t something she wants with me then blagh time to move on from this.

This topic is sort of difficult To express with text. But once again everything you’ve written very closely , if not completely spot on, resembles what I feel is going on with her and me. I have challenged it once. And when my emotions die down and I see the situation more logical and clear, I tell myself “next time she rants I will challenge it,” then the rant happens and I just lose my footing. I see it as all one way, unmovable, and just go along with it. Then afterwards wonder why I did Yes, because she brings it up constantly. To the point it’s beginning to annoy me. I think she does this with our age gap too, she will sorta bring it up like she wants me to tell her it’s ok. I lose my footing with that one as well. I don’t know why. I have some ideas, but knowing why is only half of the battle, changing the behavior within myself is a different challenge It all feels to me like she can stay safe in her little corner constantly parroting this “I don’t want a relationship” thing while essentially partaking if one [with me]. She never has to call it that, or commit, but she gets the perks. I’m not blaming her, I’m just expressing that this is the vibe I get from her being around her so much. I honestly think she tries to test the water sometimes by being a tad sexual, like with the books. It’s similar to what I was doing with some commentary I’d make. She’s also been using the forbidden “heart emoji” with me lately. A couple days ago when she told me more about her divorce and the dynamic in that relationship and her relationship with her mom… I mean, it all makes sense that she’s taken on this independent persona. But on the flip side she doesn’t seem as content with it as she tries to appear. Because who talks about it this much???? And she’s often stressed that she does have to do xyz alone. Which is part of where my anger comes from cos I legit show up for her and help her (she does for me too!) so how r u going to say you’re alone?! Or how r u going to say all relationships are dysfunctional when she and I actually communicate really well. We do well when we are together. We resolve things well. I’m there for her, she’s there for me. She calls me on my *** and then gives me a platform to speak. She listens. I cannot identify anything in this that’s inherently dangerous (aside from my yearning for someone who may not be available in those ways) I really don’t know. Which is why I’m at the point of just cutting this off and ending it once and for all. But then it’s like damn, I can’t do that to her (or myself). I see how much she likes being around me, I just want her to stop with this “I don’t have anyone” commentary. But at the same time everyone is made well aware of what we both do for one another, so it’s ironic . Last night she’s told me she’s done life by herself since her divorce so that’s what she knows. Ok but this convo came after I literally patched holes in her wall from the art we took down, while she cooked dinner. I got sick the other day at her house and she made me tea and sh*t and helped me. She’s not someone I’d prefer to just hoist out of my life, this is SAD for me, but just cause she wants to be “alone” doesn’t mean I want that for the rest of my own life. Rinse and repeat. I don’t even believe she wants that for herself either, it’s just what she says to cope and to protect. IMHO. Thanks for sharing this tidbit. I’m glad you found balance there. I tend to see things this way as well, I don’t think anyone is perfect, we all come with something. So long as no one is being abusive to one another I think recognizing the flaws in conjunction with being around someone who can sort of massage them out, is really helpful. Like in my case, I do have very black and white thinking and I shut down. She picks up on it and will mention it when I’m doing it. Then she will ask me to come and communicate what I’m feeling. I’ve never been held to that before and it’s healing that part of me. I know I should prob challenge some Of her more firmly engrained issues as well. I do with different topics and she thanks me and responds well. But right now, I guess because I am feeling certain [intimate] things for her, I’m going through an internal rage cycle and I feel like she’s seen and knows too much and I’m frustrated cause I want more with her. I’m mad that we’ve both become vulnerable in so many ways yet it’s still “I don’t want a relationship!” while referencing the dysfunction of other ppl. But yet she and I do not communicate like that. We don’t put each other down. We don’t hit below the belt. And on that note, the irony of this entire thread is that she’d likely want me to communicate this stuff to her.

Yes. That’s exactly what it is, this isn’t a mystery. She’s been clear about this. My issue is my choice to spend all of this time with her to where it resembles what you’d have in a relationship but in the end it’s actually just not. I’m stuck in a loop Probably be sad but accept it for what it is. And retell herself over and over that she “didn’t want a relationship anyhow,” just like she also tells herself she prob isn’t deserving of a good one. Then ok. If that’s what she wants then so be it I already stopped talking to her once before and she was sad over it. But at this point I know I have to cut it off

Thanks for the birthday wishes! And the comments. This situation got too much for me and I had to stop thinking about it. But I guess what ended up happening is I’ve been reverting back to my old methods, which aren’t healthy. And I can’t really stop any of the thoughts or behaviors, they seem to be predominantly subconscious until I finally realize I’m doing it. Even she’s realizing. To be clear, this isn’t overwhelmingly present in our day to day. It’s mostly fine, but this is brewing under the surface for me. I know it’s my ‘fault’ for never saying anything to her. And that is what it is. That’s prob what you all will say, that this has been going on for months, I should have xyz. Etc etc. well, I just never could, so I never did. I get it’s so easy for some people but I just never could do it. So whatever. But now I’m isolating, shutting down, and even becoming angry with her. Just don’t really like talking or being vulnerable anymore because it means I have feelings for her, which I then get angry about. I’m tired of hearing her little rants about not wanting relationships. Blah blah blah. I get it. Or her rants about how if something happened to her she’d be by herself. That’s insulting. Like she really thinks I’d leave her to fend for herself? I dunno. I’ve been holding this in. It’s just insulting to me. We see eachother like twice a week. At least. Usually more. We had dinner last night. And it’s like, what am I doing. It’s torture now. then there was the other day where we were browsing a big thing of books that we ran into. There were loads. I said well I want to look through them and see if there’s anything I’m interested in. I was going down all of the tables of books and at some point she got distracted by one so I carried on. When I made it down a row and was back near her she hands me the book and is like “I like this one.” Well once again… a sex book. Out of alllllll of the books, she gives me this one. Obv I’m going to think about her and sex in the same sentence in my head. But what would really happen if I tried something? And I’m always taken aback when she does this because she yet and still doesn’t come across to me as someone who actually wants to sleep with me. I’ve been around women who do, and it’s obv. Or, they’ll flat out say it. But even the ones who don’t, it’s very obv they are willing and wanting that. I don’t get that with her. And maybe that’s because the other women weren’t yapping about how they “didn’t want a relationship.” There’s been a few times I’ve thought she’s had feelings for me and we’ve had ‘moments’ and I could have said something then, but again, never did. We had a long and integrated convo the other night where she opened up to be more about what happened with her divorce and some other things… and then I guess one of the nights I wasn’t with her she called her friend out for being abusive to her husband and was telling me about it all. And she was like “see this is all I see. It’s just dysfunction. People getting together and it turns into that, I don’t want that responsibility. Ugh.” And some other stuff about how in 5 years she doesn’t want to be having to wipe someone’s ass or them wiping hers. That she’s just too old for it all. Whatever. I feel like I’m just done with it all. I hear her loud and clear. I just want the feelings to go away. We are way too close and integrated. Once again I feel like she has the perks of a relationship without having to commit. She’s even comfortable enough to use the bathroom in front of me… It’s like I have a girlfriend that I can’t touch. I started talking to women on dating websites again the other day. Just made me angry at her, at what’s about to happen. She’s so scared of “relationships” and all of this being alone talk… well, now that’s exactly what’s going to happen. She will be alone and die alone while I’ve moved on with my life. I won’t be coming around anymore once I do meet someone, and eventually it’ll happen. Then what? I hope all of the “I don’t want a relationships” were worth it. Now she’ll see again what it’s like not to have one when I’m gone. I’m who she calls, I’m who she spends all her time with, I’m who she eats with, I’m who she prefers to be around. Girl bye! normally I’d just ghost people when I feel this internal chaos. But I can’t do that sort of thing to her. I know it would really hurt her. I already feel bad that she’s picking up on me shutting down. I’m not the same on the phone either cause I’ve realized this convos are in part what’s allowed me to develop feelings for her. And last night a certain sensitive topic came up and she was really listening to me and being compassionate and I realized what was happening and had to cut that convo off. Cos again, it’s also that vulnerability that makes me have the feelings. And then when I shut down the other day we were together I didn’t even realize I had done it and she said “so is this what you do.. you just completely shut down?” I said “yup!” She sees too much at this point, I just want to push the erase button on it all.

See below: I dunno. The age gap here bothers me. He is only 22, and was just 21 when you first began dating and you are twice his age. I get that he’s legal, but he’s just beginning his life as an adult, trying to figure himself out and who he is, and you were on that journey 20 years ago… he’s expressing to you a lot of fears, and they’re all centered around this very thing: him wanting an adventure that leads to a future, but you’ve already had it. you should let him go so he can find a woman his own age, it’s what he’s expressing to you that he wants. im also wondering if the two of you have ever met in person?

I’ve spent a lot of time reading infidelity boards, accounts of the men and women victimized by someone’s selfish behavior, and many, if not most, of them absolutely would want to be told. sure, you may be doing it to relieve yourself of guilt, or to punish him for lying to you, etc etc. But what about her? What’s best for her, the real victim of this story? it’s hard to say what side of the fence she’d be on, I personally think she deserves to know esp being that she already suspects it. However, I’d probably spill the beans anonymously for several reasons

Just wanted to add my sympathies. I’m very sorry about your mom. Very difficult to lose a parent

Do you know him well enough that it’s appropriate to share this with him? I’ve found in my friendship with a woman I’ve got feelings for I can tell her my issues and she becomes helpful/mindful of and with them. But we’re close enough that I can do that

Ok so let’s talk about your hesitancy to listen to the voicemail - has something tragic happened to you regarding phones and the information they may deliver? your answer to this may be “no,” but I’m curious. for example: I too won’t listen to voicemails right away, if at all. Even if they’re from people who have consistently been a positive interaction over the phone. This is a result of my now associating phones with trauma because when my dad was sick with cancer, my phone became a device for bad news. Every call I got was bad, the doctors, the family, the day to day issues. Then his death. If an unknown # calls me I have a mini panic attack. I can’t and won’t answer. My body goes into panic. Voice mails? No thanks. My body thinks it’s bad news. So I avoid it. It’s all triggering and makes no sense to anyone. Just saying, I relate.

Which is why she’s posting here? People who have various anxiety issues can be with the most “perfect” partner and still have anxiety. She’s going to go back and forth, up and down, left and right, all within herself at various points, from day to day, or hour to hour. It’s ok. She’s trying to change her thinking patterns. This is exactly how to change thinking patterns: going through a situation and learning in real-time better ways to cope Yes you are. But what bothers me about it, is the fact that Kim has asked you to please stop hyperfocusing and going in circles about certain things and you keep doing it. She’s explained some of your feedback doesn’t align with what she’s feeling in real life and internally, and you keep insisting she must be feeling it, actually, but doesn’t know that she is. Come on. She wants help with the phone call anxiety, frankly I’m shocked she hasn’t rage-quit and deleted the thread, I would have. She’s explained that she’s pretty much worked this out, she’s not building an altar to him in her room and summoning an outcome… she enjoys his friendship and she’s communicating with a friend while working out some of her issues.

I generally tend to believe that if a situation is attracting someone, and they feel a continual draw to it, then there’s something in it that they need to experience. you’re enjoying your friendship with him, nothing wrong with that. It seems you’ve grown since you started this engagement, so it’s a win either way. this arrangement might not work for everyone, but it’s working for you. Why cut off a friendship? Makes 0 sense to me.