NighttimeNightmare

Thanks @rainbowsandroses 😀 I’m happy with my progress

I think, in many ways, I do too. I know she doesn’t want to be pressured, or rushed, or expected to be anything. I’m the same way, I think that’s why we’ve been able to carry on like this. Yes, it’s a slow process, and I’m not expecting it to end in romance, but I know for a fact had she made a real move on me that called for too much intimacy earlier on, I am pretty sure I would have gone into my avoidant tendencies. Intimacy is very new for me. I always found things to feel intimate in my own solitude, never with others. So… I appreciate the process with her because I’ve been allowed to move at a pace that also works for me is there another aspect to it where I get frustrated? Sure. Sometimes. But those are more surface reactions, and there’s so much more changing in the under-current. I think I am, too, and thank you for understanding that theres actually been a few times in the past where I could have done it, but I wasn’t ready. And maybe she wouldn’t have been either, but over the past months since the first time I ever posted about her, she’s changed a lot. I mean I went from being a brat about a lot of things, not understanding the process and wanting immediate answers. I wanted more time with her, I wanted to hang out, I wanted to be with her. Well, I have all of that now. It was a process, but now it’s a routine. And it seems we’ve both gotten over certain reservations. I know I’m learning from her, and she’s learning from me. The other week she said to me “you’re teaching me not to care what people think.” She used to be scared to cook for me, but now she does. there is just so much that’s changing and unfolding and had I pushed for something earlier I rly think it would have set back our connection. It kind of does these days, sometimes. But that’s a compartmentalized statement. Like when we have really emotionally intimate conversations, I do tend to feel sexual towards her and then I get frustrated. But I’d also only want to do that with her if she wanted to, that’s part of the attraction for me - a mutual desire there’s also this dynamic im recently picking up on where I feel like she would benefit from some sort of physically intimacy too. not necessarily sexual, but just physical. Esp during an “argument,” I’ve noticed she wants closeness during disagreements, my inclination is to shut down and leave . So that’s also something I’m trying to work on, being realistic with myself about my own availability for true intimacy Not just allowing myself to b*tch about not having an “official” relationship or not being able to sleep with her when the feeling arises once in awhile etc I’m trying to change that. We actually got into something minor at the party and I just wanted to leave but instead when we got to her house I decided to do better, I sat her down and said “it hurts me when you do xyz” and explained why. A part of me felt so stupid for saying this, I never have before with anyone. But she responded with an apology and said she didn’t realize what that was doing to me and she will not do it anymore. So now I’m learning “wow this person is really safe and it’s safe for me to express myself to and with her.” Again, a process

Yes. It’s been months of me getting over my own issues and reservations. Now I’m at the point where I’m willing to do something. It was a process

Youve barely given any information how are you defining “friendzone” and “blowing hot and cold”? Give us examples. What is she doing that is causing you to define the behaviors with these terms??

It’s been a week, two weeks top. Because she and I only recently had that convo. I’m not going to just blurt something out, the energy in the room has to be ok for me to make a move at least now I’m willing to, before I wasn’t

Hard pass. You both can try to explain this away as innocent but there’s something going on there, at least in his mind’s fantasies and unfortunately you can’t beg someone to be exclusive to you - verbally, physically, or emotionally. Sounds like you’ve gotten the verbal lip service from him, but emotionally his thoughts are elsewhere

I dunno. Im getting a lot out of it or I wouldn’t spend my time with her the whole “social” couple thing is a newer development that happened slowly over time. Only recently has she been inviting me as her +1 to places, so ya, a lot has developed naturally on its own she spends most of her free time with me, and me her. We’ve gotten really close in private as well, it’s not like she’s shunning me in private and then conveniently trying to use me as a social beard or something. Everything we do now, in public and private, seems to be a “we” sort of thing these days tonight was good, she made me a really fancy dinner, got a cake, and a few gifts. Just a quiet night with just us. Stayed til midnight. all of this is developing in a steady consistent way that I enjoy. But also as I noted before, it is approaching a point where I need to be more direct about some things.

I’d say my physical needs come as a byproduct of the connection we have formed. It’s always been that way for me. I don’t hunt for sex, I hunt for connection and then other feelings follow that connection so with her, the connection is there - but will anything happen? Who knows. I think it’s now a nuanced dance where on one hand I like that things are unfolding the way they are between us, naturally, and with some guidance it could lead to something concrete and physical. But on the other hand you’re right in that I could be sort of “wasting” some prime years away when I could be connecting with someone who could give me both things in time. Someone who would commit General update: At this point things have ramped up even more, I think. I was her guest to a party, seemed like we went ‘together’ meaning we brought flowers and she was like “these are from nighttime and myself,” and the inquiries from others “so where’d you guys meet?” We all sat to play some games and the entire evening we were nudging each others feet to communicate, and like with the remote, I swear she was leaving her feet on me. I mean, I was enjoying it. After that party we went back to her place and I went home around 1am tonight she’s having me over for my bday so it’ll be interesting to see what she’s put together but all in all, I am planning on letting this continue to play out naturally, but also using my words to sort of guide this into a more overt romantic connection. I feel like we are close to that and I’ll see how she responds to a bit more firmness there.

Well, there ya go.. You felt like the two of you were dating, he felt like he was dating his best friend. I guess the big question is why did you “fall in love” with someone like this? Did you feel like the two of you were connected and had the “true bond!” because he was using you to soothe himself emotionally? im not saying this in a judgemental way, I’m genuinely curious and also asking for some self-reflection there. Because everything you’ve written points to an emotionally unavailable person and to many that alone would have been a sign to leave it alone. but in spite of this guy clearly having the hots for another woman, you somehow “fell in love” with him. I get you enjoy/ed these attributes but there’s so much more needed to have a healthy, functioning, and mutual relationship.

Are there other reasons you’d want to end this relationship? Or, if you had your own space and she had her own independence, would you be interested in keeping the relationship?

You’re not young enough for him. This is disgusting. He sounds pedophiliac what attracted you to a 53 year old man? How old was his ex wife?

You’re going to receive some sort of judgement, or at least inquiries, about this. no one is going to coddle you into normalizing cheating if your husband isn’t ok with you sleeping with other men then you need to go back and reevaluate what’s going on and find healthy ways to deal with this that don’t involve traumatizing and betraying people (if that’s what is going on)

We can’t see what you look like or what sort of vibe you give off, so I don’t know. what I do know, though, is that (a) people are historically obsessed with the sexuality of others, and (b) people have trouble understanding that sexuality and binary gendered expressions are not the same thing. In other words, a man can be feminine and not be gay, and a woman can be masculine and not be a lesbian. it could be that you aren’t adhering to binary gender roles, in one way or another, and your siblings are projecting their life journey onto you.

Yes, I think this is the nuance I need to enact with her now. I’ve never dated either but I think the signs (not to be confused with me looking for a sign) between she and I are pretty clear for me now and I do need to be direct, I think it’s ok to be direct now. It didn’t feel right before I think the fact I have not made a move is causing confusion, for me definitely, and I think for her too. Everyone else I had this ‘vibe’ with a move was made by now. And I think the convo from the other night really hit home for me.

Thanks for your contributions, @rainbowsandroses I 100% agree with you and relate to a lot of your POVs on other posts as well I’ve never asked a woman out in my life, and yet I’ve had several long-term relationships. Every one of them started like this, with a magnetic vibe of some sort that naturally unfolded and then we both found ourselves in a close bond that we eventually titled a relationship. It feels the same with this woman, but I get thrown off because of the age that propels a lot of my hesitancy + this newfound attempt I have to listen to people’s words instead of a “my way or highway” approach. But that ‘feeling’ I’ve had only a handful of times in my life, and each turned into a relationship , so that feeling never steered me wrong; I feel the same feeling with her over and over again I know something like 80% of human communication is non-verbal and all of that I participate in with her, but it’s not something I can relay on a forum board. There’s so much going on between she and I that I just can’t capture in text and absolutely had I been someone who wasn’t interested in getting to know her and immediately asked her out based on looks or something, i don’t think it would have turned into this. On my end either, I don’t like feeling like I have to perform. I do also think at this point, it would be beneficial to sprinkle in some more direct communication. She’s asking for that too, but that’s all still thanks to the connection we’ve naturally created over these months. and regarding the dog comment, well… that comment also was significant in the sense that there’s been so much we’ve done and said, related to the dog and my grievances with it that’s been a long time coming. We’ve both been working really hard with getting my dog incorporated into her home. Her dog had pretty bad possession issues on the property, and now my dog is able to go in her yard, her house, and we can all be together. That took some months. Not to mention just the fact she’s gotten so good at being willing to leave the dog at home so we can spend time alone, that took awhile too. She’s made really tangible strides to integrate me and make herself more available to me. So I don’t think the comment is significant on its own, but it encompasses much more than just a passing comment

I definitely don’t think a single comment in reference to a dog means we’re going to have a love story. I mean, none of my posts on this forum would exist if something like that was convincing to me. So I agree with you there it’s moreso her overall vibe and and the time we spend together and just nuances in our connection; it’s something in the progression of our engagements. Those things as a whole could point to there being something. I mean, if the guy who sent you flowers also had you over nearly every day, and you guys were cooking together and mutually enjoying close company, I still wouldn’t think that meant he was in love with you, but it would beg a question for sure. That’s sort of the point this has gotten to. And if she’s tired of me being passive well… she will get her wish

Nothing juicy to update regarding new years. She was disappointed we weren’t doing the engagement at her friends house. I did invite her to option B but she didnt want to be out on the road with the drivers, which I figured, (The initial party was within walking distance), and she’s always been finicky about that. So I went to my party, and she ended up getting invited to have a quiet dinner with her friend and her husband at their house. And to your most recent comment @Batya33, I get what you’re saying and I really do think from here on out I’m going to be more like my former self with her, which I’m happy about. I won’t be abusive like i was in the past, I’ll make space for her thoughts and feelings, but I’m excited to reclaim a big part of myself and be expressive and direct. I’ve never known how to be direct with my needs and consider someone else’s [needs] at the same time, but I think I get it now. I trust she’ll tell me if I’m being a bit much, and so far she’s been a safe platform for me to open up to, so I think this is really healthy for me. and on that note, while she is still verbally saying she “doesn’t want a relationship,” the entire convo we had did feel relationshipy. Especially with her saying, “I need someone who is going to xyz.” Everything about that sentence and context sounded like partner talk. Otherwise she would have said something like, “I work best when people are direct with me.” She’s always clear with her words. Then, when we ended that convo and went outside to sit down, the dog was bothering her for something (and I know she knows I’m getting a bit perturbed by her coddling him), and she told me that it’s always just been her and him, there’s never been anyone else in the picture since she got him and that’s all he knows. I said I understand that. Then she told the dog “sorry, you need to go lay down. Things are changing” so yea I think all of this, in addition to my brain finally clicking with other things, I am gonna stop sweeping this under the rug. She can “reject” me or push back on the idea or whatever but this is all so obvious to me and I’m done playing games

Saw*

But had you been consistently telling him you don’t want a relationship with anybody? That’s still a narrative between she and I. for instance, today when we were discussing the incident with the relentless guy I told her it went completely over my head she was looking at me like that for me to end it, I told her I didn’t even realize he was hitting on her until he started commenting on her looks. Then I said “well now I know you don’t want that I’ll be firm with him next time,” she was like “I didn’t want that, esp not with him. …. I don’t want that with anybody” so like, I can say after the conversation I’ve realized I can be expressive without being controlling, I don’t need to repress my thoughts and feelings, about anything. But again, there’s also this reality that she’s saying she doesn’t want a relationship lol I mean I suppose I could still tell her I want one … with her specifically

She went there to run an errand, it’s not a party or event place. She was there for 10 minutes max. To clarify, when I was speaking in this manner what I said was “she lets me,” that was the term used. What I meant was “she doesn’t stop me,” I didn’t mean I felt I needed permission lol. I’ve never had a dynamic with someone where I needed “permission,” I have the other issue - I tend to be incredibly controlling and I step over peoples wants and needs. That’s why she’s saying she thinks I’m over correcting by being too “considerate” to the point it’s passive and comes across as a lack of interest. She’s right so, I’ll start operating in a middle ground It’s not like she’s wild and uncouth or anything lol. She just has a mouth on her and I’ll reel it back in, I don’t feel it’s my responsibility, but I’ll redirect her. She does the same with me when I get a bit fired up.

Ya this is the exact cliff notes of the convo. She’s already told me I was controlling once and to stop. This convo was just about exactly what you said, she doesn’t want controlling but she wants me to take the lead. I didn’t know she had been taking my attempts at being considerate as a lack of interest/enthusiasm the entire time It wasn’t a party, it’s a place i’m involved with for business. We talked about the incident today and she explained her POV. It was what I thought, she didn’t want to tell him to f*ck off cause she didn’t want to ruin what I have going on there. She also enjoys going with me and felt upset that she had to be put in this position to where she didn’t want to ruin the vibe for herself either. She said that was her attempt at trying to stop this in a polite way but since he didn’t listen now she has to be a b*tch. She’s on her way there now actually, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. She said “you know me, I have no problem telling someone to f*ck off.” Hopefully it doesn’t cause a scene. I’m constantly having to rail her in

She’s definitely not a homebody. I’m going to let her know I’m going to the other party and want her to come I was wanting to but sort of on the fence as I didn’t know if she’d want to. But after our convo we had, posted about it above, I feel a lot more confident in letting her know what I want, which is her with me. That’s what I want, so I’m gonna express that. She can come or not. But hopefully she does That sounds fun, same to you! Thank you 🙂

Spent the day with her again. We went for a 6 mile hike then went back to her place and we made dinner. Had a really interesting conversation I don’t remember how this came up, but she brought it up. Essentially the gist of the conversation was that she said my attempts at being polite and courteous are coming across as a lack of interest. She said she never knows what it is that I want, because I don’t ever tell her. She asked if that had to do with some people in my past. I told her I’ve got some past issues for sure, going back to my childhood. I said as a child I learned to shutdown my own needs because it was easier, so a coping mechanism was for me to become passive In some ways and leave it all up to the other person to make decisions or to tell me what they wanted, Id just do what I really wanted on my own time. As an adult I became super narcissistic and my MO was to control people into doing what I wanted, and I never want to be that person again so…. I just sort of take a back seat with things. I explained that in my life I was always told people felt it was my way or the highway, so I was trying so hard not to be overbearing with her. She said she understands, but it comes across as very wishy washy she basically told me I am overanalyzing my own behavior and over-correcting, in her POV. She feels by doing this I’m invalidating myself and that with her, I don’t have to worry about any of this being “controlling” because she’s never do anything she didn’t want to do, and she wont. She told me she needs someone who can take control, for lack of better word, because her life has always been more rigid, some of it for bad reasons, but a lot of it just a byproduct of her career. She said she just operates best in that dynamic. this took me a moment to wrap my mind around because I kept equating my needs as controlling, because that’s how I had previously expressed them for so long. But eventually it sort of clicked in my mind, that she was telling me I can have my needs and verbalize them, and if she doesn’t want to go along with any of them, she won’t. So it’s not to do with me being controlling, rather, relearning how to validate my own needs in a healthy way and allowing someone to interact with them there were some condiments on the table and I essentially laid some out and said to her that all of this is what I was doing, it was me wanting to give her options, I felt it was considerate. “Which condiments do you want? Versus me picking one for you and that’s what you get. That seemed rude and inconsiderate.” But then, I took the one I wanted and I put the other one she usually uses in front of her and said “you’re going to get this one, and I’m taking this one. Is this how you want me to talk to you?” And she said, “yes.” For whatever reason , finally, finally, this all has clicked in my head. It felt like all of the puzzle pieces fell into place and my confusion left me. I know many on this board have been drilling similar things into me but my brain would always go back to “but idk what she feels or wants and I need to be sure,” blah blah. but to hear this all directly from her, the very person I thought I was being “considerate to,” it just hit different. She must have had me pegged for awhile now. And now I feel pretty free. Like, I don’t have to not have needs, or not express them for fear of being my former self. I can express what I want, and it doesn’t mean I’m controlling the situation or being greedy or narcissistic. They’re just my needs, my desires. And she’ll let me know if she’s not into going along with any of them, and that will be ok.

Well, sh*t, the New Year’s Eve thing is off… sort of, maybe. She invited me as her guest to a party and the host came down with Covid. I could invite her to the party I was invited to, or maybe I can get creative and come up with something we do alone. But I’m also thinking she might end up at another friends house. Didn’t really discuss it with her cause she was on the phone so.. TBD

She was married once when she was my age. Caught him cheating and divorced him. She’s told me she’s dated on and off since then and had more or less bad experiences. Just one guy she said she had really great chemistry with, years back, but turned out he had a wife at home; she feels a lot of guilt about this. More recently (I’m talking within 10 years) she said she had met someone online and they had good chemistry on the phone but not in person. Another one changed when they made it official and she felt like he just wanted her for sex whereas she wants an emotional connection. Found photographs of him and a woman he had in another state, said she took a flight out of there and left. Last guy died of cancer. She says it was more or less who she was dating I guess, pilots. That’s who she was around all of the time, so. She said she realized the pilots all had women in different states and countries so she decided to never be involved with one again. She said people out of the industry struggled with the fact she was gone all of the time, which made the relationships difficult, it was difficult to see people consistently and they couldn’t handle it. When we do have discussions about it she basically says to me “if someone has all of these bad experiences, it’s stupid to do it again. You say I just see the negative in everything but the negatives are there, they happened to me, so why would I subject myself to this again?” Which I get and tend to agree with save for the fact not everyone is destructive. then she will say to me that even I think most peoples relationships are dysfunctional. And I do. But not every person out there is. last we had this convo was when she said “so I’m supposed to just open myself up and see what happens and end up hurt”. I was like “if you open yourself up to someone, you step back when red flags come up. You have control over it. You don’t blindly believe someone’s words “ Then I go into my spiel about how “you know how I feel about this. I look for a connection and I let that develop. I like to really get to know someone. When you’ve got the connection you have the friendship and trust and you know how the person behaves when they’re happy, sad, angry, etc. I have to get to know someone, but that’s just me” This was the convo where I told her I used to be abusive to my partners and had to learn how to communicate and to react with kindness and generosity during conflict. Told her I still struggle with b&w thinking and such, but I don’t feel I’m abusive anymore Probably. If anything I think it’s made it easy for a genuine friendship to develop. Because I got to know her for her, not because I had an agenda to sleep with her But likewise, I’ve always enjoyed that she wasn’t pestering me for a relationship or that she was someone who constantly was trying to sleep with me. but now, obviously, I’d like some of those things this doesn’t seem to be an 100% commitment fear for her either though. It also seems to be an annoyance with people saying she has to be in a relationship or she’s defective, and pressuring her into one